Going to Dental School Will Almost Surely Wreck Your Finances

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rassulwest said:
what are some general fees that can be waived out of the COA?
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Health insurance. Living frugally. Some schools add a 2.5k laptop(if you already own one you can waive that). You don't need to buy every textbook.
It depends on the school but for most schools about 10k can be chopped off per year.
 
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Rekker said:
This is an excellent point and I am surprised it was not brought up earlier as I was reading through all these posts.
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I had to create this account just to chime in.
The age old "dental shortage due to retirement" has been around forever. I started dental school in 2006 and that's what they told everyone. What I notice now is there are more older dentists that are planning to keep working until they keel over with the handpiece in their hand. Dental shortages are real, but only in very rural areas. They too are starting to be saturated because that's where you can make a killing apparently. In any mid-size to large urban area, you're going to be neighbors with a minimum of 1-2 dentists on the same block as you. I went to an inexpensive school and lived well within my means. However, loans then were either 6.8% government subsidized or 8.5% unsubsidized. I've been working for 6 years and own my own practice now. After your monthly costs of student loans, disability insurance, mortgage or rent, medical insurance, retirement fund, day care, etc... there's not going to be a lot of fun money left over. This is a common situation with most of my dental school colleagues that I've kept in touch with. It's not to say that you can't live comfortably, but if you expect to live like a rockstar right out, you're going to be in for a shock. The OP was trying to give you the reality of the situation and make you aware. It might be easier for you guys now because interest rates are a little lower, but you have to also think why businesses like SOFI and Earnest have popped up and are making money refinancing med/dental loans. I know because I thought like a lot of you before starting dental school that it was going to be easy to make fistfuls of money and that all the older dentists telling me to think about my decision were crazy. Anyways, just something to think about. Would I still go into dental school now with how expensive tuition is? Yes, but I would also know it's going to suck coming out unless you like living on credit just to sell the image of a successful dentist.
 
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Likkriue said:
Health insurance. Living frugally. Some schools add a 2.5k laptop(if you already own one you can waive that). You don't need to buy every textbook.
It depends on the school but for most schools about 10k can be chopped off per year.
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Or any at all ;)
 
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DentalThrowaway12345 said:
I had to create this account just to chime in.
The age old "dental shortage due to retirement" has been around forever. I started dental school in 2006 and that's what they told everyone. What I notice now is there are more older dentists that are planning to keep working until they keel over with the handpiece in their hand. Dental shortages are real, but only in very rural areas. They too are starting to be saturated because that's where you can make a killing apparently. In any mid-size to large urban area, you're going to be neighbors with a minimum of 1-2 dentists on the same block as you. I went to an inexpensive school and lived well within my means. However, loans then were either 6.8% government subsidized or 8.5% unsubsidized. I've been working for 6 years and own my own practice now. After your monthly costs of student loans, disability insurance, mortgage or rent, medical insurance, retirement fund, day care, etc... there's not going to be a lot of fun money left over. This is a common situation with most of my dental school colleagues that I've kept in touch with. It's not to say that you can't live comfortably, but if you expect to live like a rockstar right out, you're going to be in for a shock. The OP was trying to give you the reality of the situation and make you aware. It might be easier for you guys now because interest rates are a little lower, but you have to also think why businesses like SOFI and Earnest have popped up and are making money refinancing med/dental loans. I know because I thought like a lot of you before starting dental school that it was going to be easy to make fistfuls of money and that all the older dentists telling me to think about my decision were crazy. Anyways, just something to think about. Would I still go into dental school now with how expensive tuition is? Yes, but I would also know it's going to suck coming out unless you like living on credit just to sell the image of a successful dentist.
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When your age starts hitting 65 you have no choice but to retire. By the time the class of 2021 graduates, dentists born 1956 and before are all 65 and older. That's a humongous chunk of baby boomers. 2006 is a bit early because that's assuming they retire at 50-60 which was the miscue when they did the report.
 
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Likkriue said:
When your age starts hitting 65 you have no choice but to retire. By the time the class of 2021 graduates, dentists born 1956 and before are all 65 and older. That's a humongous chunk of baby boomers. 2006 is a bit early because that's assuming they retire at 50-60 which was the miscue when they did the report.
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I don't know where you read that, but there is no organization that can force you to retire at 65. You can start collecting your social security check at 65, but many people continue working. Yeah, so let's see the huge sudden need for dentists in saturated areas. I'm keeping my fingers crossed it happens since I'll be working for at least another 20 years if things go according to my retirement plan and investments.
 
Likkriue said:
When your age starts hitting 65 you have no choice but to retire. By the time the class of 2021 graduates, dentists born 1956 and before are all 65 and older. That's a humongous chunk of baby boomers. 2006 is a bit early because that's assuming they retire at 50-60 which was the miscue when they did the report.
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Personally I am seeing alot of dentist pushing the envelope with age, guys in their 60's. Many got burned real bad back in 2008 due to poor investments so many have delayed retirement. True the body can only hang on so long, but alsl when I started DS in 2000 there were maybe 54 schools , now its up to what close to 70? Thats alot of extra bodies, not to mention schools are now starting international programs, bringing more dentists in as its a cash cow.
 
Its 65 schools now, but thats also counting PR. So 64. Yes thats alot of bodies. But theres more baby boomers. The baby boomers have got to go eventually. Like I said, the reports thought they were going to retire between 50-60 and the 2008 crisis really screwed that up. But when you hit 65 and beyond thats really pushing it. Im not sure I want a 68 year old dentist doing a molar root canal on me when I can get a 35 year old dentist.

Oh noone can push you to retire at 65, but your body can only hold together for so long. Majority of those boomers are not working beyond 65, because lets face it, your body is falling apart. If they are able to keep working till 65, so can we. This means a 27 year old dentist has 38 years of income potential if they so want.
 
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Likkriue said:
Its 65 schools now, but thats also counting PR. So 64. Yes thats alot of bodies. But theres more baby boomers. The baby boomers have got to go eventually.

Oh noone can push you to retire at 65, but your body can only hold together for so long. Majority of those boomers are not working beyond 65, because lets face it, your body is falling apart. If they are able to keep working till 65, so can we. This means a 27 year old dentist has 38 years of income potential if they so want.
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Yeah Im about 13 years into practicing and I feel it every so often, I cant emphasize working out and staying in shape, you wont win this race if your out of shape and develop back problems early. Your at Stony Brook, thats a great school, with relatively affordable education. Remember dont take out extra loans to go on vacation!! LOL.
 
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DDS9994 said:
Yeah Im about 13 years into practicing and I feel it every so often, I cant emphasize working out and staying in shape, you wont win this race if your out of shape and develop back problems early. Your at Stony Brook, thats a great school, with relatively affordable education. Remember dont take out extra loans to go on vacation!! LOL.
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Oh yeah Im very financially aware. Exercising is a must do definitely.

http://www.posturenow.com/?gclid=Cj...ZyqIVLvDCbTpznnfwwzGuMiOrYwnNFabXgaAvtf8P8HAQ

What do you think of this device?
 
To reiterate what I said above, because people are still doing this, DON'T PLAN YOUR FUTURE AROUND A FEW ANECDOTAL STORIES YOU HEAR. Run the numbers yourself. I know its hard to hear that you're going to be living like a school teacher for ten years after you graduate. The worst thing you can do is plug your ears and bury your head in the sand of feel good stories of people who claim that it's not a big deal to graduate with a half million dollars in high interest debt. It's better to accept the harsh reality so you can control expectations, not get disillusioned when you graduate, and make plans accordingly. /r
 
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Likkriue said:
How much can you deadlift haha
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Ha, I do crossfit and no way do I try to keep up with the young guns, last thing I need to do is pull something and cancel pts.
 
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Has anybody else gotten an acceptance but seriously considered dropping dentistry all together? I didn't get into my state school but I got into UDM which will net me about $440k in debt by the time I graduate... I was thinking about taking a year or two off and reapplying, but apparently I will essentially be blacklisted because I had an acceptance already.
 
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MaizeGoBlue said:
Has anybody else gotten an acceptance but seriously considered dropping dentistry all together? I didn't get into my state school but I got into UDM which will net me about $440k in debt by the time I graduate... I was thinking about taking a year or two off and reapplying, but apparently I will essentially be blacklisted because I had an acceptance already.
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I wouldn't risk re-applying. Not worth it.
 
Am I the only one curious what @doc toothache has to say about all this?
 
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MaizeGoBlue said:
Has anybody else gotten an acceptance but seriously considered dropping dentistry all together? I didn't get into my state school but I got into UDM which will net me about $440k in debt by the time I graduate... I was thinking about taking a year or two off and reapplying, but apparently I will essent ially be blacklisted because I had an acceptance already.
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I wouldnt necessarily tell you not to do it, but at 440K you gotta have a plan for after, look at the numbers on what you might be looking at, not sure how much mercy will go up every year, get an idea what that monthly nut will be. If you can do military do it, also as stated you gotta be flexible willing to move well paying associateships are out there, Oklahoma comes to mind where people do well, basically flyover country. With that mercy is NERB, think about tohter exams as well like SERTA, CRDTS, etc, find out who has reciprocity for NERB, you get the point. If your willing to go where needed even if its far from big city, and be focused about paying off that nut for set number of years, you can do it. I cant speak on all the new programs that came out such as PAYE, IBR, etc Travis can better answer those.
 
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Rekker said:
Are you in the SDN GroupMe? I literally just asked this in there, lol.
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That's amazing timing, lol. I am not in the group.
 
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NHSC or IHS is a good option.
 
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I'm definitely going to apply for the NHSC and I may have a decent shot at receiving it (grew up in a dentally underserved area, volunteering in my application, etc) however it seems like the scholarship is even more competitive than the NHSC.
As an aside, to anybody who thinks going rural is the answer to all your problems, that is not always the case. For an example, my hometown is a small town in rural Michigan with about 15,000 people in a 20 mile radius. I am friends with a recent grad, who graduated in 2013 with about 300k in debt. He has struggled to pay off his debt and apparently there are not just not enough patients to go around. So while I am sure there are a few high need areas that could solve some debt crises, don't expect to move to a rural area and suddenly be raking in cash.
 
wow TL, DR. Any way, there is truth in OP statement, coming from a senior student. I will graduate this May with about $340K in debt, this is after my mom already helped me out with an additional $40K (thank you mom!). So if taking the total cost all together, my pre-doc loan would potentially be close to $400K. Keep in mind that I live pretty frugal, sharing an apartment with other graduate students. I don't spend my money in exotic trips to Europe like my classmates and I don't eat out much. My projected cost after residency would be around $520-530K if I am conscious about my spending. I know that several of my classmates ( class of 17') will own around $450K after graduating. I wouldn't be surprise that the student debt for 2021 class would be close to $500K. The tuition estimate sheet that a lot of schools give out do not take into consideration of loan fee (3 to 4% I think), loan interest, miscellaneous fees like university fee ( 1K per year ?? lol), and then you need a good chunk of money for the board exam during your D4 year, around 5K, or application fee if you decided to do a residency. The average salary for corporate general dentist is around $120K per year during your first year, after 3 years it would be around $160K-170K, after 5 years around $220ish K(given to us during lunch and learn by Comfort dental, Aspen, Greenberg, Sage, Heartland and so on). Of course there always is outliner but the truth is if you want to make more money, you have to push really hard. I know a girl graduated last year that makes around $160K het first year and becomes senior associate dentist for a corporate office, but she was very proactive while in school. My advice would be know what you get into, live frugally for the first couple of years but don't be so pessimistic. It may take longer but you will eventually pay back that loan.
 
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Love this thread. Everything OP has said makes sense. And its tough to hear for sure, especially when you've invested so much into a career. It is necessary to hear though. I just can't imagine having more than 350k in debt for dental school.
 
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MaizeGoBlue said:
I'm definitely going to apply for the NHSC and I may have a decent shot at receiving it (grew up in a dentally underserved area, volunteering in my application, etc) however it seems like the scholarship is even more competitive than the NHSC.
As an aside, to anybody who thinks going rural is the answer to all your problems, that is not always the case. For an example, my hometown is a small town in rural Michigan with about 15,000 people in a 20 mile radius. I am friends with a recent grad, who graduated in 2013 with about 300k in debt. He has struggled to pay off his debt and apparently there are not just not enough patients to go around. So while I am sure there are a few high need areas that could solve some debt crises, don't expect to move to a rural area and suddenly be raking in cash.
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True. I'll give you an anecdote from one of my client consults. He was a practice owner making several hundred thousand a year with a manageable student debt load. He only did so well because he used his business smarts to analyze the area before moving in. He found a high income enclave that had a lot of rich residents who could pay cash for basically anything, and there were no dentists in a reasonable driving radius so he had a monopoly. So clearly you can't just set up shop in some rural location and expect everything to be ok. Keep in mind that this dentist was probably in the top 0.1% of income earners in the country and its not representative. It does show how a dentist going to a moderate cost in state school can make the math work out ok
 
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It's rough out there. Be careful, folks.
 
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monkeyteeth said:
wow TL, DR. Any way, there is truth in OP statement, coming from a senior student at Nova. I will graduate this May with about $340K in debt, this is after my mom already helped me out with an additional $40K (thank you mom!). So if taking the total cost all together, my pre-doc loan would potentially be close to $400K. Keep in mind that I live pretty frugal, sharing an apartment with other graduate students. I don't spend my money in exotic trips to Europe like my classmates and I don't eat out much. My projected cost after residency would be around $520-530K if I am conscious about my spending. I know that several of my classmates ( class of 17') will own around $450K after graduating. I wouldn't be surprise that the student debt for 2021 class would be close to $500K. The tuition estimate sheet that a lot of schools give out do not take into consideration of loan fee (3 to 4% I think), loan interest, miscellaneous fees like university fee ( 1K per year ?? lol), and then you need a good chunk of money for the board exam during your D4 year, around 5K, or application fee if you decided to do a residency. The average salary for corporate general dentist is around $120K per year during your first year, after 3 years it would be around $160K-170K, after 5 years around $220ish K(given to us during lunch and learn by Comfort dental, Aspen, Greenberg, Sage, Heartland and so on). Of course there always is outliner but the truth is if you want to make more money, you have to push really hard. I know a girl graduated last year that makes around $160K het first year and becomes senior associate dentist for a corporate office, but she was very proactive while in school. My advice would be know what you get into, live frugally for the first couple of years but don't be so pessimistic. It may take longer but you will eventually pay back that loan.
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220k after 5 years?
 
To inject some reality into the conversation....median dental incomes have been dropping steadily from a high of $210K to the current level of $174K. This comes from the ADA.

So, those planning on steadily increasing incomes during your careers will be surprised.

Also, another pesky FACT, the median age of retirement is currently 68.4 years old for dentists. LOTS of dentists are working into their 70's.

Another fact........dental insurance is steadily DECREASING payments for procedures.

There is a significant increase in the number of dentists graduating, which is creating the reality that the average practice has FEWER patients. So, fewer patients, with insurance paying less per procedure, results in rapidly declining incomes.

These are all trends that will continue. The net effect is steadily decreasing incomes for dentists.
 
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NorCal DDS said:
To inject some reality into the conversation....median dental incomes have been dropping steadily from a high of $210K to the current level of $174K. This comes from the ADA.

So, those planning on steadily increasing incomes during your careers will be surprised.

Also, another pesky FACT, the median age of retirement is currently 68.4 years old for dentists. LOTS of dentists are working into their 70's.

Another fact........dental insurance is steadily DECREASING payments for procedures.

There is a significant increase in the number of dentists graduating, which is creating the reality that the average practice has FEWER patients. So, fewer patients, with insurance paying less per procedure, results in rapidly declining incomes.

These are all trends that will continue. The net effect is steadily decreasing incomes for dentists.
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TRUE
My GF's dad is 63 years old dentist who owns two practices. He still goes to work (by appointment) about 4-5 days a week even though all his kids are done with college and are making good income..
 
DentalAptitude said:
How about you come back once you learn how to perform a proper breakeven analysis? First of all, a breakeven analysis is something that determines how many units, how much of a service, or how is needed in order to repay financial obligations, not used to determine net worth. So I suggest you review lecture one of personal finance at Phoenix college or wherever you went. Secondly, how about some footnotes? What are your numbers even based on? Where are your highly credible sources for those income numbers? What about specialists, are they doomed as well? I'm not going to rake through numerous posts you've made to find you used one single sourced that bent the numbers in your favor.
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I love how the guy questioning credentials and trying to school the finance guy on finance is a dental receptionist running a dental "consulting" website.

Being accepted to dental school certainly does not qualify you to be a dental consultant. I would think someone in your position would be a little slower to hurl the insults. Something about glass houses and rocks...
 
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NorCal DDS said:
To inject some reality into the conversation....median dental incomes have been dropping steadily from a high of $210K to the current level of $174K. This comes from the ADA.

So, those planning on steadily increasing incomes during your careers will be surprised.

Also, another pesky FACT, the median age of retirement is currently 68.4 years old for dentists. LOTS of dentists are working into their 70's.

Another fact........dental insurance is steadily DECREASING payments for procedures.

There is a significant increase in the number of dentists graduating, which is creating the reality that the average practice has FEWER patients. So, fewer patients, with insurance paying less per procedure, results in rapidly declining incomes.

These are all trends that will continue. The net effect is steadily decreasing incomes for dentists.
Click to expand...

Those are some good hard numbers. Don't worry, they'll be ignored in favor of "alternative facts."

I love the comment that once you hit 65, you have no choice but to retire...
 
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Hey folks, the thread is meant to be informative, not to suddenly drop your seats. OP is just trying to let you guys know reality, and the future folks, who have yet to apply and be admitted to be aware that there are other good career options. The seats will end of getting filled no matter what and tuition is not going to stop increasing....GL
 
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AVB2104 said:
TRUE
My GF's dad is 63 years old dentist who owns two practices. He still goes to work (by appointment) about 4-5 days a week even though all his kids are done with college and are making good income..
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Those guys are suffering too. Imagine having a great lifestyle, making a ton of money and spending a lot of it, thinking you would just sell your practice and live off most of that for retirement. Now the dentists that are near retirement are finding that grads aren't too eager to jump at adding debt on top of their gigantic amount they already have. I feel for the dentist that are about to retire. They were blindsided. Now they have to hold onto their practices so they don't lose money on selling it. At least we have the sources to look at Dental Trends to make an educated prediction on whether we want to pursue it as a career or not.
 
Likkriue said:
I also for your analysis, very few people take out the max amount shown on the tuition sheet. Many fees can be waived.
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Likkriue said:
Health insurance. Living frugally. Some schools add a 2.5k laptop(if you already own one you can waive that). You don't need to buy every textbook.
It depends on the school but for most schools about 10k can be chopped off per year.
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Lol I guarantee that 85%+ students are taking out max loans. I see so much Starbucks, awesome trips, eating out all the time. All while at the end of the semester, financial aid office is full of kids asking for more grad plus loans.

Many schools don't let fees be waived. $5k+ laptop? Mandatory. Health insurance? Mandatory, unless you have some outside insurance. (Oh yeah, daddy's still paying for that right. :lame:) Textbooks? Oh yeah, that mandatory fee that you have to pay for. What about burs that weren't even on the tuition sheet? Oh yeah, mandatory $500 also.

Trust me, you're going to pay more than what your estimated cost is your matriculating year.
 
periopocket said:
Hey folks, the thread is meant to be informative, not to suddenly drop your seats. OP is just trying to let you guys know reality, and the future folks, who have yet to apply and be admitted to be aware that there are other good career options. The seats will end of getting filled no matter what and tuition is not going to stop increasing....GL
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Notice most of the ones that were hurtling insults at OP and being pretty nasty were listed as Pre-Dents
 
smurfeyD said:
Imagine having a great lifestyle, making a ton of money and spending a lot of it, thinking you would just sell your practice and live off most of that for retirement.
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You make a great point.
 
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Chipotlegonewild said:
Lol I guarantee that 85%+ students are taking out max loans. I see so much Starbucks, awesome trips, eating out all the time. All while at the end of the semester, financial aid office is full of kids asking for more grad plus loans.

Many schools don't let fees be waived. $5k+ laptop? Mandatory. Health insurance? Mandatory, unless you have some outside insurance. (Oh yeah, daddy's still paying for that right. :lame:) Textbooks? Oh yeah, that mandatory fee that you have to pay for. What about burs that weren't even on the tuition sheet? Oh yeah, mandatory $500 also.

Trust me, you're going to pay more than what your estimated cost is your matriculating year.
Click to expand...

There's many people that are part of that "15%" lingering the forums. Like I said it is school specific.
 
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afdent11 said:
Those are some good hard numbers. Don't worry, they'll be ignored in favor of "alternative facts."

I love the comment that once you hit 65, you have no choice but to retire...
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It's a grueling job man, my own dentist and most of his colleagues have told me they are finished within the next ~5 years. Those working well into their 70s are a minority not a majority.

Now since the median age for dentist to retire is 65+, doesn't that bode well for us since it means we have so much years to work after getting that degree? And these dentist come from an era where health science is far less advanced than it is now.
 
periopocket said:
Hey folks, the thread is meant to be informative, not to suddenly drop your seats. OP is just trying to let you guys know reality, and the future folks, who have yet to apply and be admitted to be aware that there are other good career options. The seats will end of getting filled no matter what and tuition is not going to stop increasing....GL
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It's not just dental school tuition skyrocketing. College tuition has been growing at twice the rate of inflation for almost 3 decades. This bubble can't go on forever and once it pops it might be worse than 2008. At least people could declare bankruptcy and foreclose on their homes. You can't foreclose or declare bankruptcy on a degree. College will be the next housing bubble thanks to loans from Sally Mae and Uncle Sam.
 
Chipotlegonewild said:
Lol I guarantee that 85%+ students are taking out max loans. I see so much Starbucks, awesome trips, eating out all the time. All while at the end of the semester, financial aid office is full of kids asking for more grad plus loans.

Many schools don't let fees be waived. $5k+ laptop? Mandatory. Health insurance? Mandatory, unless you have some outside insurance. (Oh yeah, daddy's still paying for that right. :lame:) Textbooks? Oh yeah, that mandatory fee that you have to pay for. What about burs that weren't even on the tuition sheet? Oh yeah, mandatory $500 also.

Trust me, you're going to pay more than what your estimated cost is your matriculating year.
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Burs and dental equipment aren't mandatory fees at your school?
 
My school lists everything we need to buy. Our first year instrument fee is 24k.
 
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