Graduate Degrees

[RackingHorse]

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Does anyone know how to do a phd degree without having to do a masters degree first? I have heard of several people that have phds but no masters degree. Some colleges state that you must have a masters before you can pursue a phd. Anyone have any insight?

 

[Fireflysushi]

From what I've heard you just need a PI that is willing to take you on as a graduate student. They have to have the money and time to invest in you getting your degree so many don't want to accept someone that doesn't have the basic lab training that a masters would get you. If you are coming in with some lab experience your best bet is to set up meeting with a PI (or several) and talk to them about your plans and what you have to bring to their research. I have known people with 2.9 Gpas that have gotten their phds because they showed a PI that they were dedicated to the research.

Oh and there is also the formality of applying to the phd program and taking the GRE...

If you have any more Q's feel free to ask

 

[Cypress]

I agree - I think your best bet is to go out there and ask some questions of the people running the program you're interested in. I know from my own experience reading endless school websites about different grad programs - they are all very different and many will have lots of info that could lead you to an answer posted on their websites - I have also found admissions people very helpful with some basic email questions.

If you have an area of research you're intersted in or a school you want to attend - start reading the websites and send some emails to the people in charge of the program and see what they say.

 

[Marsala]

It depends entirely on what you are interested in, and the school. For example, at my school, there is no biochemistry MS program, because a MS in biochem isn't very useful. In biology, I think you will have a very difficult time finding somewhere that doesn't require a master's.

It is, up to a point, the choice of the PI, but the PI also has to follow department/grad school guidelines. Even if the PI thinks you can do it, if the department rules say you have to have a MS, then you get the MS first.

 

[kaydubs]

I've been looking into quite a few programs with MS and have even considered a straight shot to PhD. I actually spoke to a program director at a school yesterday where I'm considering pursuing a master's degree in marine bio. Here's a summary of the discussion that I had about the differences between PhD and MS: If you want to do more hands-on stuff like lab work and fieldwork, MS is the way to go. PhD seems to have more about creating research projects, writing proposals and some administrative stuff. In addition, at the universities, they teach classes etc. There's some salary differences naturally but some of the working situations can be comparable.

I think a con to pursuing a PhD without a MS could be that, similar with any professional degree, if you change your mind while you're knee deep in it, you haven't got much. But, if you're positive you want a PhD, go straight for it, I suppose.

I also know that some PhD programs have you able to gain a MS while pursuing the degree while other PhD programs REQUIRE you have a MS before starting. It kind of varies. I was talking with a friend yesterday who told me that "some employers may look down upon getting only a Master's degree in a discipline in which they also offer a PhD, because they think you couldn't hack the PhD program. So if you only want a Master's, it'd be better to go to a school that grants a Master's as its highest degree, rather than a school that has both." It seemed like a valid point to me.

For me, I'm considering applying to a MS program that really interests me and has a lot of the criteria that I want but I also am considering applying to a PhD program at an awesome lab. I'm at the point where I want more exposure and experience to be a good scientist. Although I worked and strove (?) to get into vet school, I ended up wondering if it was what I really wanted. I'm still muddling through that but am getting closer to figuring it all out. At the very least, I'm grateful that I'm a trad. student who has a lot of time ahead of me to fill up with being a student. Hopefully I can figure it out

Best of luck to the OP with deciding! No matter what you decide, I am sure you will do well if you put your effort into it.

Side note: I explained my situation to the director and he shared a story with me about a girl who had a 4.0, was from a big research undergrad, but was set on vet school. She more or less said such in her PS and she wasn't accepted into the program cause they saw where her true interest was. And it was not in their master's program. So, I will keep that in mind when sculpting my PS part deux.

 

[SilverSpyderGT]

I think part of it depends on the institution. Most people in my PhD program don't have a masters and came straight out of undergrad - I think there is one person with a masters (plus me with a DVM).

 

[FutResearchVet]

It all depends on the school/program. In my program you have the option to do either a MS or PhD and you don't have to do the MS to get the PhD. I chose to do the PhD without doing a MS and I am happy with that decision... otherwise it would have taken too long and there was no way with the work (long-term research) I am doing that a MS would have been feasible. The only downside of not getting the MS first is that if something comes up (life stuff... like death in the family, marriage, children, etc) and you have to leave, they may not give you the PhD, or even a MS. My program is nice enough such that if a life situation comes up and you have already passed your preliminary exams for your PhD, they will give you a MS.

 

[RackingHorse]

There is a pretty interesting program that NC state offers. It is a phd is biomedical and veterinary sciences. You don't have to have a masters for it. If my vet school plans fall through I am probably gonna go for it.

 

[laitmanvet]

I've actually never heard of anyone who HAD to do a masters before a PhD. In fact none of the grad students (PhD bound) I've known have a masters. Seems unusual to me. Of course, that might be different for different fields. I worked in biomed academia research for close to 4 years, so for all I know that might be the case for, say, electrical engineering. But as far as I've ever known, most PhD programs don't require a masters.

 

[Minnerbelle]

The only downside of not getting the MS first is that if something comes up (life stuff... like death in the family, marriage, children, etc) and you have to leave, they may not give you the PhD, or even a MS. My program is nice enough such that if a life situation comes up and you have already passed your preliminary exams for your PhD, they will give you a MS.

Yeah, each program has variable amounts of rigid rules that they won't let you break, but beyond that most places will allow a bit of flexibility for the needs of each individual student/lab/PI.

I have one genius sister who went into a straight PhD program (no MS). Five years in, with less than a year to go, she couldn't stand her abusive PI anymore. So she quit and "mastered out." It was sad because she had enough publications going for her that all she would've had to do was slap them together into a dissertation and wasn't even worried about that.

I have another smart but not as genius (I mean no one is compared to sister #1) who applied for PhD programs. She had a great GPA and good research experience and all, but her GRE verbal score was so atrocious it raised a few red flags. This resulted in a school offering her a spot as a masters student first, with the idea that if she did well, they would let her continue on with the PhD.

It's not like a professional curriculum where you have to pass X number of classes to get a degree... so things get really murky, and rarely are things fair. Some programs don't even have qual. exams, which leaves your entire future in the hands of your PI and thesis committee (of course your individual talents/work ethic matters too). Some people can finish their PhD in shorter time than others finish their MS. Like seriously, no two PhD degrees are created equal (and that's even within the same program). A lot of it depends on how good a mentor your PI is, your relationship with said PI, and a whoooole lot of LUCK. No matter how good you are, if by chance, you keep getting projects that end up being duds, you're SOL.

 

[GellaBella]

I don't really have much to add except to say that many American schools have straight to PhD programs you can get accepted to out of undergrad, while I've found most international schools require a masters first and then the PhD portion of the degree is much shorter than over here (in England for example you do your masters, then apply for a phd program which is all benchwork, no coursework and lasts 3 years)

If you are looking for straight to PhD programs in the USA you should be able to find them very easily...I didn't find any that required a masters before application

 

[RackingHorse]

This is probably a dumb question, but what is a PI?

 

[StartingoverVet]

This is probably a dumb question, but what is a PI?

Not a dumb question at all. I asked the same question a year or so ago on another thread.

It stands for the "Principal Investigator" in a science program. Basically the guy in charge of the lab. The "boss" of the students etc working there.