Health Care Reform

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LuciusVorenus

Bad Medicine
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So apparently as of today:

Children can't be denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions
Young adults can stay on their parents' plan until 26
No more lifetime or annual limits

and for any plan that goes into affect after today:

preventive care must be covered
nearest emergency room has to be covered whether it's part of your plan or not

so...in case you're getting new insurance...yeah

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And watch the premiums continue to rise...
 
My health insurance through one of my parent's employers had agreed not to terminate young adults back in April ahead of schedule..but my mom's employer still kicked me off the family health insurance when I graduated at the end of May. I think there is still a small problem when people can just opt out of things.

I got a job with benefits and insurance a few months later so no big deal but that sucked. When my mom confronted HR about it all they said was "oh no that doesn't apply to us, we opted out of that"
 
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My health insurance through one of my parent's employers had agreed not to terminate young adults back in April ahead of schedule..but my mom's employer still kicked me off the family health insurance when I graduated at the end of May. I think there is still a small problem when people can just opt out of things.

I got a job with benefits and insurance a few months later so no big deal but that sucked. When my mom confronted HR about it all they said was "oh no that doesn't apply to us, we opted out of that"

So there is a problem when people opt out of things? So what... American's shouldn't have any choices. You want the government to tell you everything you can and cannot do and what should be covered and what should not be covered?
 
So there is a problem when people opt out of things? So what... American's shouldn't have any choices. You want the government to tell you everything you can and cannot do and what should be covered and what should not be covered?

That's not what I'm saying at all..I'm just saying that this bill shouldn't be celebrated for being so great when one of its major provisions of allowing young adults to stay on their parents insurance isn't true. And you are telling me that if you were graduating college and a bill was passed guaranteeing you coverage, and you were kicked off anyway you wouldn't be a little like WTF?

No I don't want the government directing health care down to what is and isn't covered...but I don't think that allowing young adults (a group with a high rate of uninsured people) is such a bad idea. If young adults had health insurance longer, maybe some of the bad habits and problems that originate in that age group could be managed better..so when they're 35 still with no insurance they don't come into the ER every week a train wreck until they die at 43.. I'm no expert, but I see these people day in and day out and it was just a thought.

EDIT: But some of those people will be train wrecks for the rest of their life regardless because they don't take care of themselves and don't care about their drain on the rest of the country. So before you even comment back, I am not a newbie pre-med idealistic ***** who thinks we can save everyone with love and magic and rainbows for everyone. Just to put that out there.
 
I don't have insurance (my work doesn't offer and I can't buy a plan because I was in an accident when I was 15 and have a chronic condition as a result).


I will on October 1st, thanks to this bill. Thank God!
 
That's not what I'm saying at all..I'm just saying that this bill shouldn't be celebrated for being so great when one of its major provisions of allowing young adults to stay on their parents insurance isn't true. And you are telling me that if you were graduating college and a bill was passed guaranteeing you coverage, and you were kicked off anyway you wouldn't be a little like WTF?

No I don't want the government directing healthcare down to what is and isn't covered...but I don't think that allowing young adults (a group with a high rate of uninsured people) is such a bad idea. If young adults had health insurance longer, maybe some of the bad habits and problems that originate in that age group could be managed better..so when they're 35 still with no insurance they don't come into the ER every week a train wreck until they die at 43.. I'm no expert, but I see these people day in and day out and it was just a thought.

So let me get this straight. You just want the benefits of the bill that directly helps you? And just giving young adults will not prevent themself from becoming a train wreck and dying at 43. I doubt you really see these people "day in and day out". Obama appreciates your allegiance. :thumbup:
 
I don't have insurance (my work doesn't offer and I can't buy a plan because I was in an accident when I was 15 and have a chronic condition as a result).


I will on October 1st, thanks to this bill. Thank God!

You shouldn't be thanking God, you should be thanking Obama.
 
You shouldn't be thanking God, you should be thanking Obama.
Yea, I am. Mainly Pelosi though. During the summer when the opposition was its strongest Obama was flagging and was willing to pass a much smaller bill, but Pelosi pointed out that he'd never have the same majorities in congress as he does now, and we can't wait another 15 years for a debate and she wasn't about to convince the liberal bloc that they should give up again like they did in 1994.

Now, I can focus on getting into med school without worrying about going bankrupt if I get cancer. Thank Pelosi indeed.
 
Yea, I am. Mainly Pelosi though. During the summer when the opposition was its strongest Obama was flagging and was willing to pass a much smaller bill, but Pelosi pointed out that he'd never have the same majorities in congress as he does now, and we can't wait another 15 years for a debate and she wasn't about to convince the liberal bloc that they should give up again like they did in 1994.

Now, I can focus on getting into med school without worrying about going bankrupt if I get cancer. Thank Pelosi indeed.

:confused:
 
What are you confused about? I had been applying for insurance coverage for years. I wrote to them asking for only carastrophic coverage, for exceptions, that I'd be willing to pay several times the quoted rate, but kept on being denied. I don't blame them, I'm sure they use whatever metric they use to decide but there was nothing I could do but pay out of pocket when I could and hoping nothing bad would happen to drive me bankrupt.

Now, there is a high risk insurance pool in my state thanks to Obamacare, where I will pay ~$300/month and be covered. That way, if I get sick, I won't be bankrupt.

I thought it's pretty clear.
 
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The fact that its an additional unfunded entitlement program.

So since you seem to be in favor or repealing the bill..what is your solution? Would you advocate going back to the "old days?" I hate politics so I try and stay out of it but I hear a lot of talk about how horrible it is and let's repeal it, but no one seems to have any solutions..just mustering up a lot of anger about how bad it sucks.
 
So since you seem to be in favor or repealing the bill..what is your solution? Would you advocate going back to the "old days?" I hate politics so I try and stay out of it but I hear a lot of talk about how horrible it is and let's repeal it, but no one seems to have any solutions..just mustering up a lot of anger about how bad it sucks.

Before this thread get locked...........

The spending cannot go on forever. Have any solutions to make money appear out of thin air? How do you think this plan is getting paid for?
 
Easy. 2% tax hike on the highest earners. Roll back military spending from a trillion dollars to a mere 400 billion pre 9/11 levels. You can pay for five of those bills from doing just that.
 
Easy. 2% tax hike on the highest earners. Roll back military spending from a trillion dollars to a mere 400 billion pre 9/11 levels. You can pay for five of those bills from doing just that.

Why should you raise taxes on the wealthy. Why not cut food stamps for obese Americans?
 
Before this thread get locked...........

The spending cannot go on forever. Have any solutions to make money appear out of thin air? How do you think this plan is getting paid for?

Thank god! Well I hope you have highlighted in the budget where and what to cut to help the health care system then! Please write your congressman and senators to tell them your feelings and ideas so they can adjust and/or repeal the bill for something that will be better for us all in the long run...since we are all trying to be doctors here..
 
Thank god! Well I hope you have highlighted in the budget where and what to cut to help the health care system then! Please write your congressman and senators to tell them your feelings and ideas so they can adjust and/or repeal the bill for something that will be better for us all in the long run...since we are all trying to be doctors here..

Obama told me he went throught the budget "line by line".
 
Nah, I read history books. Eisenhower: 91% tax rate on the rich. Today: 37% officially but with loopholes < 15%. Of course, ironically considering their name, history is usually not the strongest suit of teabaggers.
 
Nah, I read history books. Eisenhower: 91% tax rate on the rich. Today: 37% officially but with loopholes < 15%. Of course, ironically considering their name, history is usually not the strongest suit of teabaggers.

I think the definition of "rich" needs to be defined here.
 
I think the definition of "rich" needs to be defined here.
Over $1 million/year. The top 30 hedge fund managers made an average of billion dollars last year. People like that. $250,000 should be, and is, the minimum threshold for tax increases because at that point you're in the top 1% or so of income earners. So if you make a pyramid, that would be the top.
 
Because the taxes are way too low on the rich.

Try way too high. The rich are forced to pay for the failures, including but not limited to: welfare queens, prisoners, social security and medicaid. Social security is a ponzi scheme, that I should be able to opt out of. I shouldn't be forced to support the poor. If I want to give to them I will, I just spent 5 hours last night in the ghetto of Miami working with the homeless. However the government shouldn't force me to pay for an interventionist foreign policy, a welfare state and an overzealous war on drugs I oppose. America should have a flat tax. Just because the wealthy have more is not a justification to steal it.
 
I don't have insurance (my work doesn't offer and I can't buy a plan because I was in an accident when I was 15 and have a chronic condition as a result).


I will on October 1st, thanks to this bill. Thank God!

I don't think insurers should be forced to cover you. If I were in their shoes I would deny you for the simple reason that you increase the cost for all of us healthy individuals. This is nothing more than forcing insurers to cover individuals who are poor risks. The government shouldn't dictate to whom and for how much insurers should be able to extend coverage to.
 
Try way too high. The rich are forced to pay for the failures, including but not limited to: welfare queens, prisoners, social security and medicaid. Social security is a ponzi scheme, that I should be able to opt out of. I shouldn't be forced to support the poor. If I want to give to them I will, I just spent 5 hours last night in the ghetto of Miami working with the homeless. However the government shouldn't force me to pay for an interventionist foreign policy, a welfare state and an overzealous war on drugs I oppose. America should have a flat tax. Just because the wealthy have more is not a justification to steal it.
Agreed. What's the point of capitalism if there's less incentive to make money? Capitalism drives innovation, something America is renowned for!

Which is not to say capitalism is flawless, by any means. But raising taxes on the rich is not the way to solve anything.
 
It's a sad situation with respect to the Health Care Bill. Finally the U.S. is joining
other first-world countries with a comprehensive health care, but unfortunately in a
piece-meal basis. The best approach is to cover everybody under an expanded
Medicare and impose a value-added tax to pay for it. The French model works very
well, but these ideas smacks of socialism and therefore its an un-American concept.
The Darwinians among the posters suggest survival of the fittest. Surprising coming
from medical types because Residencies are paid for out of Medicare dollars and
a bulk of the patient load will utilize Medicare as the vehicle for payment. The notion
that folks can pay for medical care by swapping chickens in lieu of payment is dead
and gone. The pre-Obamacare system just doesn't work, but again if one believes in
survival of the fittest and medical care is a privilege rather than a right then lots
of third-world countries need your services.
 
It's a sad situation with respect to the Health Care Bill. Finally the U.S. is joining
other first-world countries with a comprehensive health care, but unfortunately in a
piece-meal basis. The best approach is to cover everybody under an expanded
Medicare and impose a value-added tax to pay for it. The French model works very
well, but these ideas smacks of socialism and therefore its an un-American concept.
The Darwinians among the posters suggest survival of the fittest. Surprising coming
from medical types because Residencies are paid for out of Medicare dollars and
a bulk of the patient load will utilize Medicare as the vehicle for payment. The notion
that folks can pay for medical care by swapping chickens in lieu of payment is dead
and gone. The pre-Obamacare system just doesn't work, but again if one believes in
survival of the fittest and medical care is a privilege rather than a right then lots
of third-world countries need your services.

Yes the residency is "paid for" by Medicare. Who cares. They're paying minimum wage dollars for a worker with 8 years or more of education. It's not hard to see who is getting the short end of the stick on that deal. Give me a break.
 
Try way too high. The rich are forced to pay for the failures, including but not limited to: welfare queens, prisoners, social security and medicaid. Social security is a ponzi scheme, that I should be able to opt out of. I shouldn't be forced to support the poor

Don't live in society. All societies do this, that's the point. The rich always give a greater amount to maintain the system than the poor. In every society, at all times. You couldn't have a functioning government otherwise.

I don't think insurers should be forced to cover you. If I were in their shoes I would deny you for the simple reason that you increase the cost for all of us healthy individuals. This is nothing more than forcing insurers to cover individuals who are poor risks. The government shouldn't dictate to whom and for how much insurers should be able to extend coverage to.

I know. If you read my post, I said I don't blame them. If I was them, I would deny people like me too. From my perspective, and you are welcome to call it selfish, I don't think I should live in fear of bankruptcy because I might develop cancer or get in a car accident some day as I'm willing to pay a premium but obviously the cost/benefit ratio does not work for the insurance companies. You disagree that people like me should have insurance and that's fine. We simply disagree on the society we wish to live in.


I prefer to live in a country without insurance companies in the first place. I am a firm advocate for medicare-for-all.
 
Don't live in society. All societies do this, that's the point. The rich always give a greater amount to maintain the system than the poor. In every society, at all times. You couldn't have a functioning government otherwise.



I know. If you read my post, I said I don't blame them. If I was them, I would deny people like me too. From my perspective, and you are welcome to call it selfish, I don't think I should live in fear of bankruptcy because I might develop cancer or get in a car accident some day as I'm willing to pay a premium but obviously the cost/benefit ratio does not work for the insurance companies. You disagree that people like me should have insurance and that's fine. We simply disagree on the society we wish to live in.


I prefer to live in a country without insurance companies in the first place. I am a firm advocate for medicare-for-all.

This is just foolishness. What if this "medicare-for-all" you speak so fondly of decides not to cover your "cancer" or "car accident". What if you can't find a hospital that accepts your "medicare-for-all". What if you have to wait months for treatment.

No one is forcing you to live in the United States. Move somewhere else if you don't like the system here.
 
This is just foolishness. What if this "medicare-for-all" you speak so fondly of decides not to cover your "cancer" or "car accident". What if you can't find a hospital that accepts your "medicare-for-all". .
They could choose not to accept 80% of the population, but somehow I doubt most would.

I've lived in a universal healthcare country (France) for several years, and the healthcare was amazing for me as a young kid and also for older people who needed frequent care. I would be more than happy with their system.
 
Don't live in society. All societies do this, that's the point. The rich always give a greater amount to maintain the system than the poor. In every society, at all times. You couldn't have a functioning government otherwise.



I know. If you read my post, I said I don't blame them. If I was them, I would deny people like me too. From my perspective, and you are welcome to call it selfish, I don't think I should live in fear of bankruptcy because I might develop cancer or get in a car accident some day as I'm willing to pay a premium but obviously the cost/benefit ratio does not work for the insurance companies. You disagree that people like me should have insurance and that's fine. We simply disagree on the society we wish to live in.


I prefer to live in a country without insurance companies in the first place. I am a firm advocate for medicare-for-all.

Who said I support insurance? We don't have insurance. Insurance is meant to cover catastrophic costs, i.e. home burns down, car is totaled etc. We should go to a system of high deductible i.e. 5 or 10k deductible insurance plus HSAs. Plus medicare sucks I plan to refuse it when I practice. If you're afraid of the costs of cancer then don't seek treatment.

I'd prefer to live in a truly free market economy rather than a state that abhors capitalism. Remember that capitalism is the only system where the government or the people with clubs don't steal and that goods, services and labor are traded on a voluntary basis.
 
Who said I support insurance? We don't have insurance. Insurance is meant to cover catastrophic costs, i.e. home burns down, car is totaled etc. We should go to a system of high deductible i.e. 5 or 10k deductible insurance plus HSAs. Plus medicare sucks I plan to refuse it when I practice. If you're afraid of the costs of cancer then don't seek treatment.

I'd prefer to live in a truly free market economy rather than a state that abhors capitalism. Remember that capitalism is the only system where the government or the people with clubs don't steal and that goods, services and labor are traded on a voluntary basis.
Ah, an Ayn Randian- just like a communist, except it's based on being a misanthrope.

I've heard Somalia is beautiful this time of year. Very few regulations. You should try it.
 
Ah, an Ayn Randian- just like a communist, except it's based on being a misanthrope.

I've heard Somalia is beautiful this time of year. Very few regulations. You should try it.

Actually a libertarian, nice try though.
 
Um, you realize that Ayn Rand is one of the heroes of the Libertarian party.

And Somalia is very libertarian. No government intrusion.
 
Anyway, this is here nor there. The bill is passed, and it won't be repealed at least until 2012 thankfully.

And even after that, if it is, the Repubs will never repeal the meat of the bill that allows insurance companies to start denying claims, or kick people off high risk insurance pools. Too much political risk. They may get rid of the mandate, which will be hilarious because insurance companies will go bankrupt since they can't deny people and there is no incentive to get insurance until you become sick. So it'll be a hilarious way to get single payor finally. I'm almost rooting for a Republican takeover (the House will most likely be controlled by the Repubs, but the Senate may be too).
 
Um, you realize that Ayn Rand is one of the heroes of the Libertarian party.

And Somalia is very libertarian. No government intrusion.

Actually most libertarians support minarchy, not anarchy. Objectivism and libertarianism do differ on many issues, nice try though.
 
Yea, I didn't say Libertarianism originated from objectivism or that they are equivalent (libertarianism is older actually), but that Rand is one of the heroes that's frequently talked about by Libertarian candidates and in debates. And the ideas overlap in many areas.

You should try reading, it's useful sometimes.
 
Yea, I didn't say Libertarianism originated from objectivism or that they are equivalent (libertarianism is older actually), but that Rand is one of the heroes that's frequently talked about by Libertarian candidates and in debates. And the ideas overlap in many areas.

You should try reading, it's useful sometimes.

I hope you bring your liberal arrogance to medical school interviews. The attendings will all love your opinions :thumbup:.
 
I hope you bring your liberal arrogance to medical school interviews. The attendings will all love your opinions :thumbup:.

I've read large parts of the bill, I can articulate my position just fine with actual data and facts. But if a school denies me admission because of that...so be it.
 
Last edited:
Easy. 2% tax hike on the highest earners. Roll back military spending from a trillion dollars to a mere 400 billion pre 9/11 levels. You can pay for five of those bills from doing just that.

The fact that there are ways to pay for this health care bill (and I disagree with your suggestion) doesn't change the fact that it is currently not being paid for by the government. Go take a look at the EM board. You can find a nice breakdown of where the funding for EMTALA (another unfunded mandate) comes from. Turns out, it comes from the doctors. Who knew? Increasing health care spending necessitates that the money comes from somewhere. It isn't coming from the government, and I doubt that the insurance companies are going to provide for more than the law requires. There aren't that many other places funding can come from.

Thank god! Well I hope you have highlighted in the budget where and what to cut to help the health care system then! Please write your congressman and senators to tell them your feelings and ideas so they can adjust and/or repeal the bill for something that will be better for us all in the long run...since we are all trying to be doctors here..

Why are you getting on his back for pointing out the fact that the bill is unfunded? The fact of the matter is that funding should have been addressed before the bill was passed, that might have allowed for more people to agree with it. As it is, we now have a piece of legislation that might work out really well, or might become an utter failure because there isn't anyone to pay for it. The onus to point out funding opportunities is on the people who enact the policy, not the people who will be effected by it. Your comment is like telling a kid that you're going to steal ten marbles from him tomorrow, so he'd better find ten marbles by then. Just doesn't make any sense.

It's a sad situation with respect to the Health Care Bill. Finally the U.S. is joining
other first-world countries with a comprehensive health care, but unfortunately in a
piece-meal basis. The best approach is to cover everybody under an expanded
Medicare and impose a value-added tax to pay for it. The French model works very
well, but these ideas smacks of socialism and therefore its an un-American concept.
The Darwinians among the posters suggest survival of the fittest. Surprising coming
from medical types because Residencies are paid for out of Medicare dollars and
a bulk of the patient load will utilize Medicare as the vehicle for payment. The notion
that folks can pay for medical care by swapping chickens in lieu of payment is dead
and gone. The pre-Obamacare system just doesn't work, but again if one believes in
survival of the fittest and medical care is a privilege rather than a right then lots
of third-world countries need your services.

With all due respect, having a single payer system is not a great idea. The short term problem with such a system is that it would be incredibly expensive. Healthcare spending is currently at 16% of our GDP. Do you really think that the government could just take that over? Then you'll say that we could make it more efficient, cut out the middle-men and the unnecessary spending. And you'd be right. But the fact remains that our country spends a huge amount on healthcare, and if the government takes it over, they would have to increase taxes in order to cover the cost. So it would still be the citizens paying for it.

Now take a look at the long term problems with a single payer system. Medicare would not be immune to the problems that plague any other monopoly. In an effort to cut costs, I guarantee you that reimbursements would not follow inflation. Medical technological innovations would stall out because there would be nobody who could afford to invest in them. So yes, everyone would be covered. But the level of care they would get in 20, or in 50 years would end up suffering.

You could even look at it from the point of view of who would become doctors. 95% of what I've seen on this forum shows that people go into medicine first out of a sense of responsibility, and the money is only a secondary factor. But if reimbursements to doctors fall, then our best and brightest won't be as motivated to pursue medicine, and eventually you'll end up with a healthcare system where the providers aren't the best that they could be.

I don't pretend to have the solution, but I am quite convinced that socialism is not it.
 
I've read large parts of the bill, I can articulate my position just fine with actual data and facts. But if a school denies me admission because of that...so be it.

Thanks for editing your post to remove any identifying information. Maybe you should do that with all your previous posts you've made. I'll see you in October. ;)
 
The fact that there are ways to pay for this health care bill (and I disagree with your suggestion) doesn't change the fact that it is currently not being paid for by the government.

Agreed. Taxes should have been raised much more.

I don't pretend to have the solution, but I am quite convinced that socialism is not it.

Based on what? Canada? France? I haven't lived in Canada, but I've lived in France, and I'd much rather have that healthcare system than ours.
 
Thanks for editing your post to remove any identifying information. Maybe you should do that with all your previous posts you've made. I'll see you in October. ;)
Haha, I edited as I didn't want to seem like I was bragging. I'd be happy to meet you face to face in october if I'm interviewing at a school you go to. I have nothing to hide, and I'd be more than happy to discuss my views in public. If the school wishes to deny me an acceptance because of it, I am OK with that. I'm not going to lie about my belief in a single payor to get into medical school.

What school do you go to?
 
I hope you bring your liberal arrogance to medical school interviews. The attendings will all love your opinions :thumbup:.

Honestly, I just read this thread thinking you were being very aggressive and arrogant while bog was being pretty even-keeled.
 
America doesn't like socialized medicine.
America can't afford it, the way it's currently structured. Raising taxes is ludicrous, because we have so many low-hanging fruits of budgetary excesses as it is.
 
Actually, I couldn't lie about it even if I wanted. I did work for a non-profit that lobbies for a single payor, and it's a huge part of my personal statement. So if you're at a school I'm interviewing - you can just read it. It has the words Single Payor in the first sentence. :laugh:

How's that for blowing my anonymity out of the water?
 
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