Help me create my ROL for child & adolescent psychiatry fellowship

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MrFlyGuy

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UTSW
CHOP
Dartmouth
U of Colorado
Johns Hopkins
Mayo Clinic
U of Michigan

No geographical preferences. I had a really good feeling from Dartmouth and CHOP. They are probably going to be number 1 and 2 but I will have a hard time choosing between them.

CHOP used to be known for their heavy workload but it seems like weekday call got cut and weekend call is paid. I know CHOP is stacked with great faculty (their chair is the president AACAP elect).

For Dartmouth I loved their rotations, especially for someone interested in childhood OCD. CHOP seems less focused on anxiety disorders, which is my favorite category of disorders. Dartmouth definitely has a less stacked faculty makeup though.

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Great list. I know you said you don’t have a geographic preference, but now is the time to start thinking of your future. Where do you want to live long-term? What are your professional goals?

Those questions play a much larger role now than others’ quality perceptions of that list. I’d argue quality there is fairly similar.
 
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Great list. I know you said you don’t have a geographic preference, but now is the time to start thinking of your future. Where do you want to live long-term? What are your professional goals?

Those questions play a much larger role now than others’ quality perceptions of that list. I’d argue quality there is fairly similar.
Honestly out of all of the places on my list I rather live in Dallas but even though I liked UTSW I feel like I would regret choosing UTSW over CHOP/Dartmouth. That being said UTSW will probably be number 3 on my list.
 
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Honestly out of all of the places on my list I rather live in Dallas but even though I liked UTSW I feel like I would regret choosing UTSW over CHOP/Dartmouth. That being said UTSW will probably be number 3 on my list.
Why? You are the only one that has to live with this decision, so do what you think is best in the end.

UTSW has a wonderful psych reputation overall. There is always regional bias, but even many physicians in Texas have no idea what CHOP is or if it’s a good place to train. The name means little down here. UTSW is generally considered the state’s flagship psych training program, arguably unmatched by anything within 2 states in any direction.

You’ll build connections where you train and likely get better job offers staying close to where you train. Potential patients know the UT name. Local psychiatrists that would consider hiring you in private practice know UTSW.

Unless Dartmouth or CHOP has an amazing niche in a subspecialty of child psych unmatched by UTSW and you are sure that niche is your future, strongly consider UTSW #1 if Dallas is where you want to be long term.
 
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Why? You are the only one that has to live with this decision, so do what you think is best in the end.

UTSW has a wonderful psych reputation overall. There is always regional bias, but even many physicians in Texas have no idea what CHOP is or if it’s a good place to train. The name means little down here. UTSW is generally considered the state’s flagship psych training program, arguably unmatched by anything within 2 states in any direction.

You’ll build connections where you train and likely get better job offers staying close to where you train. Potential patients know the UT name. Local psychiatrists that would consider hiring you in private practice know UTSW.

Unless Dartmouth or CHOP has an amazing niche in a subspecialty of child psych unmatched by UTSW and you are sure that niche is your future, strongly consider UTSW #1 if Dallas is where you want to be long term.
I’m not saying UTSW is a lackluster program or anything. I actually think it will be stronger when the new state hospital opens up on their campus in 2-3 years. I just think the training provided by CHOP and Dartmouth would be half a step above, but I could be wrong.

I agree CHOP might not be known throughout the country but you also graduate with a degree from U Penn, which for my goals for joining/opening a cash private practice wouldn’t hurt..

To be honest I don’t know where Im going to live after fellowship. I can see myself moving almost anywhere in the country depending on the opportunities provided to me.
 
I’m not saying UTSW is a lackluster program or anything. I actually think it will be stronger when the new state hospital opens up on their campus in 2-3 years. I just think the training provided by CHOP and Dartmouth would be half a step above, but I could be wrong.

I agree CHOP might not be known throughout the country but you also graduate with a degree from U Penn, which for my goals for joining/opening a cash private practice wouldn’t hurt..

To be honest I don’t know where Im going to live after fellowship. I can see myself moving almost anywhere in the country depending on the opportunities provided to me.

What I’m saying is that the opportunities are very often local. Your fellowship location significantly impacts your initial job. If you want to open a cash private practice in Texas, UTSW is your best option. If you want to do it in the NE, CHOP and Dartmouth are better options.

The average cash paying patient nationwide is not going to see any of those programs to be clearly superior than the rest.
 
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What criteria are you using to rank the rest of your list after 1-2? I would look clearly at what you're prioritizing and be consistent with that, that's how I'm approaching it now.

How are you valuing the following: rotations/experiences, prestige, location, workload, benefits/perks
 
What criteria are you using to rank the rest of your list after 1-2? I would look clearly at what you're prioritizing and be consistent with that, that's how I'm approaching it now.

How are you valuing the following: rotations/experiences, prestige, location, workload, benefits/perks
I feel like the workload is pretty similar across all the programs on my list (John Hopkins being the exception). I'm not going to lie prestige is important to me (although it probably shouldn't be). That being said I think I'm going to include UTSW as number three just because I like Dallas lol.
 
What I’m saying is that the opportunities are very often local. Your fellowship location significantly impacts your initial job. If you want to open a cash private practice in Texas, UTSW is your best option. If you want to do it in the NE, CHOP and Dartmouth are better options.

The average cash paying patient nationwide is not going to see any of those programs to be clearly superior than the rest.
You really think the layperson is going to see Dartmouth vs UTSW and not think Dartmouth is more prestigious? Not trying to be snarky just genuinely curious.
 
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You really think the layperson is going to see Dartmouth vs UTSW and not think Dartmouth is more prestigious? Not trying to be snarky just genuinely curious.
Yes. You are not correct about this. People are not going to react strongly to the university that happens to be attached to the clinical programs you get your fellowship at. Neither should you :)
 
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W
I’m not saying UTSW is a lackluster program or anything. I actually think it will be stronger when the new state hospital opens up on their campus in 2-3 years. I just think the training provided by CHOP and Dartmouth would be half a step above, but I could be wrong.

I agree CHOP might not be known throughout the country but you also graduate with a degree from U Penn, which for my goals for joining/opening a cash private practice wouldn’t hurt..

To be honest I don’t know where Im going to live after fellowship. I can see myself moving almost anywhere in the country depending on the opportunities provided to me.
What degree are you hoping to get? You mean like you will do a masters at the same time? Your fellowship is not a degree from penn.
 
You really think the layperson is going to see Dartmouth vs UTSW and not think Dartmouth is more prestigious? Not trying to be snarky just genuinely curious.

If you ask the average adult in Texas, they would tell you that it would be silly to pay for a Dartmouth education with A&M and UT in the state. These are exceptional public institutions unmatched in the majority of states. The average cash patient trying to choose a good psychiatrist that relates to them will choose the one with the local high quality institution more often.

I attended multiple universities in Texas. Patients constantly bring up how they or their family attended one of the same institutions. Their blinders ignore my other institutions and focus on how our shared experiences improve trust.

All of this about prestige is generally a pretty silly argument anyway. There isn’t an all-inclusive list of cash psychiatrists in each city that ranks psychiatrists based on price and training institution. You could have trained at Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Columbia for various degrees. When a patient searches for a psychiatrist, they are more likely to choose the one with the better marketing and availability. Next would be trusting a referral from a friend.

If you were experiencing an urgent medical issue that needed to be addressed by an outpatient specialist without insurance, how would you do it? The majority start with a local Google search, review cost and availability of 2-5 places, read some Google reviews, and then schedule. Unless your marketing is good, no amount of prestige will help you land in the top group of consideration.
 
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If you ask the average adult in Texas, they would tell you that it would be silly to pay for a Dartmouth education with A&M and UT in the state. These are exceptional public institutions unmatched in the majority of states. The average cash patient trying to choose a good psychiatrist that relates to them will choose the one with the local high quality institution more often.

I attended multiple universities in Texas. Patients constantly bring up how they or their family attended one of the same institutions. Their blinders ignore my other institutions and focus on how our shared experiences improve trust.

All of this about prestige is generally a pretty silly argument anyway. There isn’t an all-inclusive list of cash psychiatrists in each city that ranks psychiatrists based on price and training institution. You could have trained at Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Columbia for various degrees. When a patient searches for a psychiatrist, they are more likely to choose the one with the better marketing and availability. Next would be trusting a referral from a friend.

If you were experiencing an urgent medical issue that needed to be addressed by an outpatient specialist without insurance, how would you do it? The majority start with a local Google search, review cost and availability of 2-5 places, read some Google reviews, and then schedule. Unless your marketing is good, no amount of prestige will help you land in the top group of consideration.
I think it really depends on what you want to do with your career. No offense to all these presumably great university training programs in Texas but no one knows anything about them where I'm from and everyone in any pediatric specialty knows CHOP. Top children's hospitals in the country, that remain top in the country year in and year out, are top for a reason. There certainly are some training options that will be different for people who train at them. I say this as someone who did not do CAP at a top children's hospital, and while I received excellent training, there are clearly some areas that I missed out on.

If you have interest in CL work, medical comorbidity in CAP, neurologic cross over of psychiatric conditions, academia, and to some extent systems of care work, then I definitely recommend training at a top flight children's hospital. If you just want to get into PP cash as soon as possible, then certainly regional connections will matter a lot and I recommend training where you want to live.
 
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I think it really depends on what you want to do with your career. No offense to all these presumably great university training programs in Texas but no one knows anything about them where I'm from and everyone in any pediatric specialty knows CHOP. Top children's hospitals in the country, that remain top in the country year in and year out, are top for a reason. There certainly are some training options that will be different for people who train at them. I say this as someone who did not do CAP at a top children's hospital, and while I received excellent training, there are clearly some areas that I missed out on.

If you have interest in CL work, medical comorbidity in CAP, neurologic cross over of psychiatric conditions, academia, and to some extent systems of care work, then I definitely recommend training at a top flight children's hospital. If you just want to get into PP cash as soon as possible, then certainly regional connections will matter a lot and I recommend training where you want to live.
Other than name recognition/prestige, the idea that top ranked Childrens hospitals offer advantages over other programs is not something that can be assumed, and I would say there are lots of examples where the opposite is true. Boston Children's Hospital is exceptionally famous but is massively failing at meeting the needs of their population - well run clinically focused systems in smaller cities almost certainly provide better care. The boarding crisis is the worst at some of the most famous programs. Patients with rare presentations are evenly distributed throughout the country for the most part. It is very rare for psychiatric patients to travel for specific care and when they do it is either a waste (such as the 'advanced psychopharmacology' evals at MGH) or it's to somewhere that isn't an ivory tower anyway (such as the glut of residential treatment programs in the mountain west). The best autism care I have ever seen is at a non-academic hospital in a Connecticut. The best systems of care are definitely not to be found at our top ranked Childrens hospitals which are mostly famous because of research, with larger systems in the country having far more sophistication around standardizing clinical path ways and creating care models. I would rather receive care from a dedicated, well-rested psychiatrist who has moved back to their home city in the Midwest than the underpaid, burnt-out attending at Yale who is trying to get done early so they can get back to resubmitting their K. Academic medical centers have a lot of advantages but I don't think they offer any clear advantages in terms of quality of clinical care and associated exposure for trainees.
 
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Other than name recognition/prestige, the idea that top ranked Childrens hospitals offer advantages over other programs is not something that can be assumed, and I would say there are lots of examples where the opposite is true. Boston Children's Hospital is exceptionally famous but is massively failing at meeting the needs of their population - well run clinically focused systems in smaller cities almost certainly provide better care. The boarding crisis is the worst at some of the most famous programs. Patients with rare presentations are evenly distributed throughout the country for the most part. It is very rare for psychiatric patients to travel for specific care and when they do it is either a waste (such as the 'advanced psychopharmacology' evals at MGH) or it's to somewhere that isn't an ivory tower anyway (such as the glut of residential treatment programs in the mountain west). The best autism care I have ever seen is at a non-academic hospital in a Connecticut. The best systems of care are definitely not to be found at our top ranked Childrens hospitals which are mostly famous because of research, with larger systems in the country having far more sophistication around standardizing clinical path ways and creating care models. I would rather receive care from a dedicated, well-rested psychiatrist who has moved back to their home city in the Midwest than the underpaid, burnt-out attending at Yale who is trying to get done early so they can get back to resubmitting their K. Academic medical centers have a lot of advantages but I don't think they offer any clear advantages in terms of quality of clinical care and associated exposure for trainees.
I'm not saying what your describing is impossible (by any stretch), but I do think it's a bit of a colored picture that may not represent everyone or even the majorities experience in similar situations. Boston Children's is clearly not capable of providing top flight services to every child in the greater Boston area (I presume that literally every child is eligible for their services since all the big places take medicaid and usually even undocumented children), but that is hardly a failing on their behalf. These places have crazy boarding problems because demand >>> supply, but I don't feel that detracts at all from training purposes and is not a fixable problem for any children's hospital in the USA.

One of my friends worked in C/L at a top Children's hospital for a decade and I will tell you he absolutely saw some pretty wild cases that I received no exposure to in my training. I do not mean to say people necessarily come for pure mental health reasons, but they definitely come to these hospitals for exotic physical complaints/diseases which frequently have psychiatric sequala.

I have also rotated at really well run academic locations where the clinical care model is drastically better than what I have experienced as an attending in the community. Seeing how a really well oiled machine works (even if it's financially unstainable elsewhere) is hugely beneficial in training. There's also something to be said about the ability to spend time with and learn from well known researchers, although clearly there is a broad range of desire to teach in this population.

As someone who did not do residency, fellowship, nor ever been on staff at a top flight children's hospital, I absolutely do see their value to the community and they clearly are producing strong clinicians, which I know because I have worked with several personally.
 
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I think it really depends on what you want to do with your career. No offense to all these presumably great university training programs in Texas but no one knows anything about them where I'm from and everyone in any pediatric specialty knows CHOP. Top children's hospitals in the country, that remain top in the country year in and year out, are top for a reason. There certainly are some training options that will be different for people who train at them. I say this as someone who did not do CAP at a top children's hospital, and while I received excellent training, there are clearly some areas that I missed out on.

If you have interest in CL work, medical comorbidity in CAP, neurologic cross over of psychiatric conditions, academia, and to some extent systems of care work, then I definitely recommend training at a top flight children's hospital. If you just want to get into PP cash as soon as possible, then certainly regional connections will matter a lot and I recommend training where you want to live.

That’s my point. In outpatient cash practices, what matters is the perception of local potential patients. The term “CHOP”, spelling it out, and even UPENN means little by me. It probably means a lot in Pennsylvania and nearby states. I doubt New York thinks highly of the University of Texas.

There are probably a couple names that defy the odds like Harvard, but most patients don’t know what MGH is.
 
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I'm not saying what your describing is impossible (by any stretch), but I do think it's a bit of a colored picture that may not represent everyone or even the majorities experience in similar situations. Boston Children's is clearly not capable of providing top flight services to every child in the greater Boston area (I presume that literally every child is eligible for their services since all the big places take medicaid and usually even undocumented children), but that is hardly a failing on their behalf. These places have crazy boarding problems because demand >>> supply, but I don't feel that detracts at all from training purposes and is not a fixable problem for any children's hospital in the USA.

One of my friends worked in C/L at a top Children's hospital for a decade and I will tell you he absolutely saw some pretty wild cases that I received no exposure to in my training. I do not mean to say people necessarily come for pure mental health reasons, but they definitely come to these hospitals for exotic physical complaints/diseases which frequently have psychiatric sequala.

I have also rotated at really well run academic locations where the clinical care model is drastically better than what I have experienced as an attending in the community. Seeing how a really well oiled machine works (even if it's financially unstainable elsewhere) is hugely beneficial in training. There's also something to be said about the ability to spend time with and learn from well known researchers, although clearly there is a broad range of desire to teach in this population.

As someone who did not do residency, fellowship, nor ever been on staff at a top flight children's hospital, I absolutely do see their value to the community and they clearly are producing strong clinicians, which I know because I have worked with several personally.

You are comparing your experience of months transiently working CL as a trainee vs an attending of 10 years who is a consistent anchor on their service. Many hospitals will see interesting, challenging cases the longer one works there. Many “prestigious” institutions are maligned by their own communities because they will chase the research funding and those who will pay top dollar internationally for the “name brand” care. Little of this is accessible or applicable to the general community.
 
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You are comparing your experience of months transiently working CL as a trainee vs an attending of 10 years who is a consistent anchor on their service. Many hospitals will see interesting, challenging cases the longer one works there. Many “prestigious” institutions are maligned by their own communities because they will chase the research funding and those who will pay top dollar internationally for the “name brand” care. Little of this is accessible or applicable to the general community.
Yes anytime you work somewhere longer and see more patients, you see more cases and what comes with that. I think it's a priori preposterous to suggest that if your child has an undiagnosed or rare autoimmune/rheumatic/neurologic/infectious process going on that parents are not specifically going to choose a top flight children's hospital over their local community children's hospital. As a parent I spend a lot of time with other parents and all the ones (none of these people are in medicine), all have/would send their child to the top flight children's hospital near me in case of emergency. I know this because I've literally heard the stories from them. I also have taken my child to see a top specialist at a top children's hospital due to their congenital condition (who was wonderful and certainly accessible to us with only a few week wait).

I'm not sure I follow the hate on top places for "chasing research funding" (we need exactly that to progress medicine). If you're a parent and would rather send your sick child to a local community children's hospital, that's great, but I have really hard time believing some of these responses are from people who are actually parents.
 
I'm not saying what your describing is impossible (by any stretch), but I do think it's a bit of a colored picture that may not represent everyone or even the majorities experience in similar situations. Boston Children's is clearly not capable of providing top flight services to every child in the greater Boston area (I presume that literally every child is eligible for their services since all the big places take medicaid and usually even undocumented children), but that is hardly a failing on their behalf. These places have crazy boarding problems because demand >>> supply, but I don't feel that detracts at all from training purposes and is not a fixable problem for any children's hospital in the USA.

One of my friends worked in C/L at a top Children's hospital for a decade and I will tell you he absolutely saw some pretty wild cases that I received no exposure to in my training. I do not mean to say people necessarily come for pure mental health reasons, but they definitely come to these hospitals for exotic physical complaints/diseases which frequently have psychiatric sequala.

I have also rotated at really well run academic locations where the clinical care model is drastically better than what I have experienced as an attending in the community. Seeing how a really well oiled machine works (even if it's financially unstainable elsewhere) is hugely beneficial in training. There's also something to be said about the ability to spend time with and learn from well known researchers, although clearly there is a broad range of desire to teach in this population.

As someone who did not do residency, fellowship, nor ever been on staff at a top flight children's hospital, I absolutely do see their value to the community and they clearly are producing strong clinicians, which I know because I have worked with several personally.I think you are making really interesting p
I wanna say that I think this is a really good response and I am enjoying thinking about this - so in case tone is obscured by the medium, my ongoing engagement is because I find this to be fascinating, rather than being invested in winning an argument. I think you are explaining well why in theory academic medical centers offer training advantages over hospitals that are more solidly focused on clinical missions. My perspective is as someone who trained at a very ivory tower place for residency and fellowship, and although I found it to be a tremendously rich experience by virtue of my interactions with researchers, the ability to engage in the broader academic community of the university, and the ability to connect with faculty who were at the cutting edge of creating new knowledge in the field, I feel like there is an 'emperors new clothes' reality as it relates to the quality of the clinical care at many of these places. Without calling out specific programs - the clinical care at some of the famous 'specialty clinics' that are unique to medicine was really quite poor - an intelligent but inexperienced fellow would typically do an assessment, staff it with a distracted young assistant professor, and then there would be some veneer of sophistication given by a full professor opining about some detail that was seldom critical to the case. At a community hospital down the street, an equally intelligent but less grandiose treatment team was doing about quadruple the clinical volume, and despite the lack of prestige which came from lack of connection to an academic brand and research infrastructure, they did a much better job. The best place to get child and adolescent psychiatric treatment in Connecticut is at a place you have never heard of called the Clifford Beers Clinic. If I was going to be admitted to an inpatient unit in Connecticut it would be Silver Hills Hospital, which is not affiliated with any university but is superbly run. As an attending at a busy community hospital I am struck by how much better the notes and clinical decisions are of my colleagues who are clinicians through-and-through when compared to some of the attending at more prestigious places who just weren't as focused on this part of the role. Things like boarding problems are not unsolvable, they just aren't problems that Academic Medical Centers are optimized to solve. We solved ours here at our humble community system because that is what we do and we do it well. I think the ecology of all this is far more nuanced than we think and there is clearly excellent care to be had at academic medical centers but there is also excellent care in the community and in many cases it may be better. I certainly appreciate that for medical problems it is common for people to need to, and benefit from, visiting specialty clinics and that makes a lot of sense. In psychiatry I tend to think most of these specialty clinics (with the notable exception of dementia) are a lot of faff and when families fly to Boston to talk to someone about PANDAS it usually does more harm than good.
 
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I wanna say that I think this is a really good response and I am enjoying thinking about this - so in case tone is obscured by the medium, my ongoing engagement is because I find this to be fascinating, rather than being invested in winning an argument. I think you are explaining well why in theory academic medical centers offer training advantages over hospitals that are more solidly focused on clinical missions. My perspective is as someone who trained at a very ivory tower place for residency and fellowship, and although I found it to be a tremendously rich experience by virtue of my interactions with researchers, the ability to engage in the broader academic community of the university, and the ability to connect with faculty who were at the cutting edge of creating new knowledge in the field, I feel like there is an 'emperors new clothes' reality as it relates to the quality of the clinical care at many of these places. Without calling out specific programs - the clinical care at some of the famous 'specialty clinics' that are unique to medicine was really quite poor - an intelligent but inexperienced fellow would typically do an assessment, staff it with a distracted young assistant professor, and then there would be some veneer of sophistication given by a full professor opining about some detail that was seldom critical to the case. At a community hospital down the street, an equally intelligent but less grandiose treatment team was doing about quadruple the clinical volume, and despite the lack of prestige which came from lack of connection to an academic brand and research infrastructure, they did a much better job. The best place to get child and adolescent psychiatric treatment in Connecticut is at a place you have never heard of called the Clifford Beers Clinic. If I was going to be admitted to an inpatient unit in Connecticut it would be Silver Hills Hospital, which is not affiliated with any university but is superbly run. As an attending at a busy community hospital I am struck by how much better the notes and clinical decisions are of my colleagues who are clinicians through-and-through when compared to some of the attending at more prestigious places who just weren't as focused on this part of the role. Things like boarding problems are not unsolvable, they just aren't problems that Academic Medical Centers are optimized to solve. We solved ours here at our humble community system because that is what we do and we do it well. I think the ecology of all this is far more nuanced than we think and there is clearly excellent care to be had at academic medical centers but there is also excellent care in the community and in many cases it may be better. I certainly appreciate that for medical problems it is common for people to need to, and benefit from, visiting specialty clinics and that makes a lot of sense. In psychiatry I tend to think most of these specialty clinics (with the notable exception of dementia) are a lot of faff and when families fly to Boston to talk to someone about PANDAS it usually does more harm than good.

I find it really hard to generalize academic vs community to quality of training because it really depends on what a candidate is looking to gain from a fellowship program to help their long-term career goals. If they're looking for C/L and rare cases, then I think it depends on 1) the quality of the pediatricians & pediatric subspecialists and 2) the clinical acumen of the psychiatry attendings on service, which varies widely even within the same department. A highly ranked Children's Hospital by USN&WR may not have the same level of clinical care for outpatient psychiatry. If the goal is private practice, then the connection to alumni or adjunct/volunteer faculty who have private practices can be highly valuable as they can serve as important mentors and referral sources to getting your own practice set up. Brand name programs can be more marketable for higher prices in PP if you're cash only as higher paying clientele care about stuff like that.

Also, I question whether the quality of clinical care delivered to patients and how well run the administration is translates to the quality of clinical training by the fellowship program. You can have a terrific fellowship program in an unranked hospital/clinic and you can have abusive fellowship training in the top academic centers, the latter of which seems more common from my perception although I have no data. I place higher value on a program's call schedule, the clinical volume, the dedicated time for supervision and didactics, the desirability of the location, the number and quality of attendings (some fellowship programs have only 2-4 child psych attendings total), and the number of specialty clinics and hospital services.

The unique programs are Mayo Clinic and Cleveland Clinic as they are medical training establishments not connected to a university setting so their research tends to be less basic science and more clinical and translational. I'm not sure how much you can extrapolate between a top academic center and training programs in these hospitals/clinics.

If OP is interested in pediatric OCD, I recommend asking specifically about training in this: how much they learn ERP/CBT, using medication for this, working with comorbidities such as Tourette's/Tic Disorders (I can't believe some of my cofellows graduated having never treated this during their fellowship), have an IOP/PHP program for OCD, doing family therapy for OCD, even working with more severe or treatment-resistant OCD.

After going through the fellowship interview trail myself, I found it really disheartening that many fellows graduate receiving no training in diagnosis and treatment of autism, how to diagnose/treat eating disorders, recognizing and managing first-episode psychosis, anything related to adolescent addiction, forensic or juvenile justice cases, seeing young children at all, or doing basic family therapy. From my training, I found it more important to learn how to work with psychiatric disorders that are well established and have commonly accepted treatments (e.g., FDA approved medications or widely used psychotherapies) rather than arguing about the validity of PANS/PANDAS or figuring out if the pt has autoimmune encephalitis.
 
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Honestly, doesn't matter, as my mentor to me pre-match "wherever you match, there you belong". Patients just want your empathy, not your ROL
 
I’m not saying UTSW is a lackluster program or anything. I actually think it will be stronger when the new state hospital opens up on their campus in 2-3 years. I just think the training provided by CHOP and Dartmouth would be half a step above, but I could be wrong.

I agree CHOP might not be known throughout the country but you also graduate with a degree from U Penn, which for my goals for joining/opening a cash private practice wouldn’t hurt..

To be honest I don’t know where Im going to live after fellowship. I can see myself moving almost anywhere in the country depending on the opportunities provided to me.
If you want to stay in academia, UTSW would be a good choice. Their psych department is huge, and they have many opportunities for academic jobs. Plus, UTSW is also opening a state hospital which will include child beds. Additionally, DFW has a good job market & relatively affordable area compared to other cities. There are multiple IOP/PHP programs in the area which can be a good option for new grads.
 
I wanna say that I think this is a really good response and I am enjoying thinking about this - so in case tone is obscured by the medium, my ongoing engagement is because I find this to be fascinating, rather than being invested in winning an argument. I think you are explaining well why in theory academic medical centers offer training advantages over hospitals that are more solidly focused on clinical missions. My perspective is as someone who trained at a very ivory tower place for residency and fellowship, and although I found it to be a tremendously rich experience by virtue of my interactions with researchers, the ability to engage in the broader academic community of the university, and the ability to connect with faculty who were at the cutting edge of creating new knowledge in the field, I feel like there is an 'emperors new clothes' reality as it relates to the quality of the clinical care at many of these places. Without calling out specific programs - the clinical care at some of the famous 'specialty clinics' that are unique to medicine was really quite poor - an intelligent but inexperienced fellow would typically do an assessment, staff it with a distracted young assistant professor, and then there would be some veneer of sophistication given by a full professor opining about some detail that was seldom critical to the case. At a community hospital down the street, an equally intelligent but less grandiose treatment team was doing about quadruple the clinical volume, and despite the lack of prestige which came from lack of connection to an academic brand and research infrastructure, they did a much better job. The best place to get child and adolescent psychiatric treatment in Connecticut is at a place you have never heard of called the Clifford Beers Clinic. If I was going to be admitted to an inpatient unit in Connecticut it would be Silver Hills Hospital, which is not affiliated with any university but is superbly run. As an attending at a busy community hospital I am struck by how much better the notes and clinical decisions are of my colleagues who are clinicians through-and-through when compared to some of the attending at more prestigious places who just weren't as focused on this part of the role. Things like boarding problems are not unsolvable, they just aren't problems that Academic Medical Centers are optimized to solve. We solved ours here at our humble community system because that is what we do and we do it well. I think the ecology of all this is far more nuanced than we think and there is clearly excellent care to be had at academic medical centers but there is also excellent care in the community and in many cases it may be better. I certainly appreciate that for medical problems it is common for people to need to, and benefit from, visiting specialty clinics and that makes a lot of sense. In psychiatry I tend to think most of these specialty clinics (with the notable exception of dementia) are a lot of faff and when families fly to Boston to talk to someone about PANDAS it usually does more harm than good.
I appreciate hearing about your perspective as well. I think one of the issues is that I have no connection to the east coast personally or professionally and it sounds like the ivory towers and community centers are a bit different there than I have personally experienced (and clearly a number of people on SDN have east coast experience).

Where I have lived and practiced, many of the community hospitals provide downright terrible care. It's not even an exception as much as it is the expectation. Between my partner and myself, we have worked or rotated through about 2 dozen hospital systems in the past decade in multiple different cities (all in the same part of the country). There is demonstrably different care at top flight local institutions, and I haven't met a single local MD/DO who feels otherwise. I can complete understand that other locations have different resources and different setups, and thus like much of everything in the US, it depends on the local region/state.
 
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This thread has taken off beyond my initial question but I love the conversation it started (even though I don't have the focus and/or the motivation to respond to every post)!

I'm still conflicted, I don't know if there is a way for me to make my ROL and be truly sure of my rank order to be honest. Cash private practice is my ultimate career goal for better or for worse. I might try to reach out to the fellows of CHOP, Dartmouth, and UTSW. I will update the thread as it gets closer to the deadline.
 
Cash private practice is my ultimate career goal for better or for worse.
That + most interested in living in Dallas = go to UTSW IMO.

I'll not repeat the points the other folks made beyond saying that I think they were spot-on about local connections and local high-quality institution name far outweighing going to some of the ivies that a layperson is least likely to know is an ivy...
 
This thread has taken off beyond my initial question but I love the conversation it started (even though I don't have the focus and/or the motivation to respond to every post)!

I'm still conflicted, I don't know if there is a way for me to make my ROL and be truly sure of my rank order to be honest. Cash private practice is my ultimate career goal for better or for worse. I might try to reach out to the fellows of CHOP, Dartmouth, and UTSW. I will update the thread as it gets closer to the deadline.
If it's close at that point, definitely rank in order of your geographic preference to live following fellowship. I think that's actually much more important that what current fellows say. If you would have asked me 10 years ago I would have said to listen to the current fellows but now I definitely agree with the above about valuing the local connections, it makes a big difference.
 
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If it's close at that point, definitely rank in order of your geographic preference to live following fellowship. I think that's actually much more important that what current fellows say. If you would have asked me 10 years ago I would have said to listen to the current fellows but now I definitely agree with the above about valuing the local connections, it makes a big difference.
Local connections are huge and part of the reason why you may get better jobs/salary as well as knowing the landscape for referrals/resources than those who are coming from outside that area. I had no idea when I was applying for fellowship how big of a deal it is.
 
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