Help! School Disregarding Their Late Attendance Policy

[chillingpanda]

“What can you do” idk, maybe not be an obsequious coward and expect them to adhere by their own guidelines. Your doormat comment had me cracking up

The same guidelines where they say they can edit it whenever they want LOL. It's alright tho, I ain't gunna argue with a non-med student. Yall don't understand the shi we put up with to get our degrees

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[Psychstudent!721]

The same guidelines where they say they can edit it whenever they want LOL. It's alright tho, I ain't gunna argue with a non-med student. Yall don't understand the shi we put up with to get our degrees

OP never said they can edit it whenever they want-also, they can’t. If OP signed an agreement to abide by the handbook then they chose to change it on a whine any lawyer would absolutely obliterate The case. Also-there is a difference between putting up with **** and allowing yourself to be abused

 

[chillingpanda]

You sound like a boot-licking doormat.

Yup, can't argue with that. Been kissing the ring every month of 3rd year so far and gotten the results I've wanted so I'm content. At the end of the day you're just a student, you have no power. Even if you're right the school will find a way to make it your fault, seen it happened countless of times for the dumbest reasons. OP is not going to win unless maybe if you lawyer up

 

[Psychstudent!721]

Yup, can't argue with that. Been kissing the ring every month of 3rd year so far and gotten the results I've wanted so I'm content. At the end of the day you're just a student, you have no power. Even if you're right the school will find a way to make it your fault, seen it happened countless of times for the dumbest reasons. OP is not going to win unless maybe if you lawyer up

First-let me preface anything else I say by saying I’m not trying to be rude or nasty. Just got home from work and am tired but can’t sleep, so I’m sorry if anything comes off as curt. Second-I agree, there’s a time to take it on the chin and let crap slide. However, I strongly believe if they’re actually threatening him with expulsion then it may be a hill worth dying on.

 

[Lawpy]

OP and the school both messed up here but OP can easily resolve the issue by showing up early. Picking fights with the school over something like this is a bad idea. Just put your head down, graduate and then tell the school to go pound sand

 

[Doc_Ock]

Hey I found something a few people on this thread are missing

 

[Psychstudent!721]

Hey I found something a few people on this thread are missing

You’re my new favorite person. I believe many just want what’s best for the OP but it’s hard to understand how it’s best to “roll with the punches” of he’s actually facing expulsion.

 

[Browns99]

Bottom line, get to class on time, it's called professionalism and in the real world, patients do not like when physicians are late and keep them waiting. Enough with excuses and the comments about the policy here is doing nothing to address the issue with the poster being LATE, but unfortunately, we want to harp on policy,SMH.

 

[LimpSpatula]

Your school sucks OP. I think the biggest lesson to learn here is that you’re somehow rubbing people the wrong way. Figure out why that is and live your life. This is a situation where they’re looking for a reason to burn you. Don’t let them punk you. Do you have a mentor you can run all this by? What do your classmates think?

 

[sloop]

I agree that it is a good idea for you to leave earlier given that it seems like you are often cutting it close. Your goal should always be to arrive at least 10-15 minutes early (maybe half an hour early if you have a long commute). I don’t necessarily agree with the militaristic adage that “if you’re not early, you’re late,” but if you are arriving to class exactly on time when things go smoothly, that is really not acceptable. That pattern is obviously going to make you late somewhat regularly when anything goes wrong.

On the other hand, I do think your school is being kind of tyrannical and that some people here are being harsh. Yes, punctuality is important in your later career but it’s not like people completely lack understanding. Maybe it’s because I’m a psychiatrist and not a surgeon, but everyone I’ve worked with understands occasional tardiness if there is a reason for it, and yes traffic can be a reason for it. Maybe this is not as much of an issue in some Midwestern places, but here in east coast urban centers, an accident can easily make it impossible to get to work on time even if you left early. The other week, an overturned tractor-trailer caused all of the fellows in my program, including myself, to be late. These are all punctual people and my habit is to leave early enough to be at work 20-30 minutes early with an ~25 minute commute. In med school, some teenage driver rear-ended my car at a stoplight. Between calling my insurance, getting it towed, and getting a ride to the hospital, I missed like half a day of my obstetrics rotation. I still honored that rotation. **** happens and people do understand. You just can’t be late all the time.

 

[Psychstudent!721]

Bottom line, get to class on time, it's called professionalism and in the real world, patients do not like when physicians are late and keep them waiting. Enough with excuses and the comments about the policy here is doing nothing to address the issue with the poster being LATE, but unfortunately, we want to harp on policy,SMH.

Oh brother

 

[sylvanthus]

Name and shame. Would be good for people to know the ridiculousness before signing up for this school.

 

[hallowmann]

The OP is already no doubt in debt that would last decades in a non-6 figure job from even just the first semester of medical school, they are just getting started, and this is their first experience with the oppressive and punitive environment of medical education in this country. This is inherently a position of weakness. There is no true upside to arguing policy with the policy-makers. There is no doubt a clause in the handbook saying it can be changed at any time, and quite frankly I'm sure there are plenty of other vague and arbitrary things they could use to justify adverse action.

OP, your goal from now on is to either show up early or if you're going to be late, you don't show up. Its as simple as that. You should have already done this (not shown up if you were late), a few points be damned, but now you know better and you will. Your job in the review meeting is to cow-tow, take it on the chin, apologize, and describe how you will do better. This is not the hill to die on, and it certainly is not going to look good if you go on the offensive.

Now if they actually decide to take adverse action against you, something I highly doubt they will do, because it would be even more ridiculous than having a specifically "8 min late" policy and it would lose them all that sweet loan money they love so much, that is the point in time to lawyer-up and cause waves in the appeal process.

I also agree with name and shame, but honestly it would be better for OP if other users just look in their handbook for the 8 minute late thing, because no way is that specific a requirement in a ton of DO school handbooks.

EDIT: actually, after looking into this 8 min appears to be a common thing in workplaces based on some labor laws, but I couldn't find a school with such a policy - I looked at like 22 DO student handbooks. Either this is a very "unique" DO school policy (very possible) or its a troll thread.

 

[Osminog]

Bottom line, get to class on time, it's called professionalism and in the real world, patients do not like when physicians are late and keep them waiting. Enough with excuses and the comments about the policy here is doing nothing to address the issue with the poster being LATE, but unfortunately, we want to harp on policy,SMH.

I’m so sick of the type-A whackos in medicine who get a thrill out of imposing their own rigid, over-the-top rules of living onto other people. If you’re not required to attend a lecture at all but decide to attend anyway and you enter the room a few minutes late, that doesn’t mean you have questionable professional judgment or that you have character deficits.

Previously, I had some choice words about administrators who choose to threaten students in situations like this, but the moderators removed them... Suffice it to say that I hope OP shares what hellhole he attends so that future applicants can avoid it at all costs.

 

[ecjmmd]

Hi everyone,

I’m 3 months into med school and have had a few issues with arriving early, usually due to unpredictability in traffic and the rare personal issue and now I’m being threatened with expulsion due to lateness even though I haven’t been late, based on their policy.

Class begins at 8:00 AM. I was “late” 4 times, arriving at 8:04, 8:01, 8:09 and 8:03, in that order. I was reprimanded the 3rd time and was informed that I may be expelled if I had “repeated tardiness.” The 8:03 arrival prompted them to schedule a hearing regarding my case, scheduled for next Monday.

Contradiction: their Medical Student Handbook states, “Arriving in excess of 8 minutes after the scheduled start time of classes constitutes tardiness.” My notification of the hearing says that I am being referred to X Board for “repeated tardiness, as outlined in the Medical Student Handbook.” However, based on the handbook, Ive only been tardy once.

Since it’s unfortunately past the point of my just arriving at 6 AM and waiting for doors to open, the fact stands that they are disregarding their own policies.

What are my best options now? Do I bring up the deviation from the school handbook and politely fight it by replying to their email mandating a board hearing, apologizing but clarifying that based on the referenced handbook I was not tardy and shouldn’t be punished for a handbook violation if I did not actually violate the handbook? or should/could i Do more?

Should I just tuck my tail and take the punishment? Should I bring someone with me to the hearing?

Regardless of my fighting it, this hearing will be a blemish on my MSPE whether I’m found to have broken 0 policies or 3. Worst case scenario, they expel me and I have to choose a new path.

I appreciate any advice!!

TL;DR — being threatened with expulsion for being “late” several times but according to the handbook”/ definition, Ive only been late once. Should I push back? Or do I just continue to be kind/apologetic and beg for forgiveness? And in either case, what’s the best method to do it? Please help!

Aside: I shouldn’t worry about others, but I must mention the male who is late for every class (12+ minutes 2-3 times weekly). He is an Air Force pilot, so it’s reasonable to say there are no big medical issues and that the only thing keeping him exempt from expulsion is his friendship with the faculty member who has been tracking my attendance.

Also, this isn’t the first time they’ve disregarded their own policies.

You are a future physician. People will soon be relying on you to not only be on time, but they will entrust their health-- their very lives at times-- into your hands.

You must, during this year, begin to see yourself as a doctor. It is a challenging task for you. You are a future leader and you must own your own actions.

It may not be fair of your school to bean- count the minutes. Truth is, the rules are there. You need to be on time, just as you would expect your surgeon to be gloved and gowned when you are on the operating table.

It is hard but it is worth it to take a step back and look at the big picture. Criticism is very difficult, but we do this to help each other grow.
It is not fair for people to call you names, to be rude. You are a human. You may not have ever needed to be held accountable for your time before. I am glad that you posted this. You are not the only one who is experiencing huge changes in what others are expecting of you, as well as how your actions are viewed by others. As time goes on, there will be more and more and more expected of you, and you aren't always going to like it.

My advice is to take a deep breath and let go of your irritation at the school rules. Beleive me there will be far worse in the years to come.

 

[Psychstudent!721]

You are a future physician. People will soon be relying on you to not only be on time, but they will entrust their health-- their very lives at times-- into your hands.

You must, during this year, begin to see yourself as a doctor. It is a challenging task for you. You are a future leader and you must own your own actions.

It may not be fair of your school to bean- count the minutes. Truth is, the rules are there. You need to be on time, just as you would expect your surgeon to be gloved and gowned when you are on the operating table.

It is hard but it is worth it to take a step back and look at the big picture. Criticism is very difficult, but we do this to help each other grow.
It is not fair for people to call you names, to be rude. You are a human. You may not have ever needed to be held accountable for your time before. I am glad that you posted this. You are not the only one who is experiencing huge changes in what others are expecting of you, as well as how your actions are viewed by others. As time goes on, there will be more and more and more expected of you, and you aren't always going to like it.

My advice is to take a deep breath and let go of your irritation at the school rules. Beleive me there will be far worse in the years to come.

Im sorry, I strongly disagree with your advice and I am quite perplexed how so many people seem to be “understanding” the side of an overreaching administration acting outside the bounds of sanity. Everyone is saying “you’re going to be a future physician”. Really? Omg, a stellar student is 3,4,2 minutes late to an OPTIONAL lecture. We better watch out, he’s going to be an irresponsible physician. Is that take REALLY fair?

I don’t really believe inferring that OP is irresponsible and “has never had to be held accountable” is accurate. We’re taking about expulsion for not even breaking the student guidelines (which is rather absurd because why even have student guidelines?) It’s beyond me why so many people are harping on “thems be the rules” when they’re actually not the rules. OP has followed the guidelines set by “handlers” (sarcasm) and they’re flipping and changing the rules on the fly. No, this is not a “growth” moment that so many people seem to think it is just to get along. It’s a overtly unjust kangaroo court that occurs FAR too often in higher academia.

 

[theendisnigh]

Im sorry, I strongly disagree with your advice and I am quite perplexed how so many people seem to be “understanding” the side of an overreaching administration acting outside the bounds of sanity. Everyone is saying “you’re going to be a future physician”. Really? Omg, a stellar student is 3,4,2 minutes late to an OPTIONAL lecture. We better watch out, he’s going to be an irresponsible physician. Is that take REALLY fair?

I don’t really believe inferring that OP is irresponsible and “has never had to be held accountable” is accurate. We’re taking about expulsion for not even breaking the student guidelines (which is rather absurd because why even have student guidelines?) It’s beyond me why so many people are harping on “thems be the rules” when they’re actually not the rules. OP has followed the guidelines set by “handlers” (sarcasm) and they’re flipping and changing the rules on the fly. No, this is not a “growth” moment that so many people seem to think it is just to get along. It’s a overtly unjust kangaroo court that occurs FAR too often in higher academia.

People act like physicians aren't chronically late for patient appointments on the daily. This is almost totally due to patient quotas and unpredictability of co-morbidities and patient needs during appointments, but it's a fact of medicine here in USA.

 

[Psychstudent!721]

People act like physicians aren't chronically late for patient appointments on the daily. This is almost totally due to patient quotas and unpredictability of co-morbidities and patient needs during appointments, but it's a fact of medicine here in USA.

If I had a dollar for every time my physician (who I LOVE) was late I could make a HUGE donation to a top PhD program and be admitted on that! I would be concerned if my physician wasn’t late, lol

 

[Browns99]

People act like physicians aren't chronically late for patient appointments on the daily. This is almost totally due to patient quotas and unpredictability of co-morbidities and patient needs during appointments, but it's a fact of medicine here in USA.

So, that makes it ok and no worries for the med student who can't get to class on time.....It seems like mediocrity is ok these days and that's sad.

 

[Psychstudent!721]

So, that makes it ok and no worries for the med student who can't get to class on time.....It seems like mediocrity is ok these days and that's sad.

I would hardly call 3 minutes late to a OPTIONAL lecture “mediocre” what’s really sad is the current tyrannical mindset and lack of realism that we are going to expel a otherwise good student for FOLLOWING the student handbook. To be clear-I’m not calling you tyrannical. Last time I used hyperbole someone took it personal and Required an explanation 🙄

 

[Lawpy]

You are a future physician. People will soon be relying on you to not only be on time, but they will entrust their health-- their very lives at times-- into your hands.

You must, during this year, begin to see yourself as a doctor. It is a challenging task for you. You are a future leader and you must own your own actions.

It may not be fair of your school to bean- count the minutes. Truth is, the rules are there. You need to be on time, just as you would expect your surgeon to be gloved and gowned when you are on the operating table.

It is hard but it is worth it to take a step back and look at the big picture. Criticism is very difficult, but we do this to help each other grow.
It is not fair for people to call you names, to be rude. You are a human. You may not have ever needed to be held accountable for your time before. I am glad that you posted this. You are not the only one who is experiencing huge changes in what others are expecting of you, as well as how your actions are viewed by others. As time goes on, there will be more and more and more expected of you, and you aren't always going to like it.

My advice is to take a deep breath and let go of your irritation at the school rules. Beleive me there will be far worse in the years to come.

This post is extremely cheesy and idealistic even though i agree with your point. There are legitimate external circumstances inherent to the healthcare system that explains why doctors are late. And the school itself is a very bad example on following attendance policies if they contradict themselves and are willing to take extreme measures to try to expel OP over something like this.

Again, both OP and the school messed up here and i agree with the calls to name and shame the school. But OP should really work on being there early

 

[Browns99]

I would hardly call 3 minutes late to a OPTIONAL lecture “mediocre” what’s really sad is the current tyrannical mindset and lack of realism that we are going to expel a otherwise good student for FOLLOWING the student handbook. To be clear-I’m not calling you tyrannical. Last time I used hyperbole someone took it personal and Required an explanation 🙄

I would hardly call 3 minutes late to a OPTIONAL lecture “mediocre” what’s really sad is the current tyrannical mindset and lack of realism that we are going to expel a otherwise good student for FOLLOWING the student handbook. To be clear-I’m not calling you tyrannical. Last time I used hyperbole someone took it personal and Required an explanation 🙄

I guess you glossed over the fact that he was late "4" times.....Bottom line, that is unacceptable, sorry.

 

[LimpSpatula]

I guess you glossed over the fact that he was late "4" times.....Bottom line, that is unacceptable, sorry.

Oh no, not 4 times!! He prolly was too busy drowning baby kittens. What a scumbag. But in all seriousness, not being on time can be an issue. It basically comes down to someone else may have to pick up your slack, and that is unacceptable. If they don’t, then it’s all gravy.

 

[deleted1100659]

Isn't empathy one of the core values taught/learned while you become a physician? At least I thought so.

On SDN, that value seems to be forgotten. Empathy isn't reserved just for your patients.

Life happens. Things happen. If the outcome has no real negative bearing on anything then perhaps we should look at the bigger picture.

 

[Psychstudent!721]

I guess you glossed over the fact that he was late "4" times.....Bottom line, that is unacceptable, sorry.

Guess you missed the part where he was actually late ONCE because he was in compliance with his schools handbook.

 

[Psychstudent!721]

Finally, some logic. Everyone is ready to ban him from medicine for lateness to a OPTIONAL lecture when he wasn’t even late according to his own programs handbook. I’ll never understand the bizarre tendency to view rules as holy dictates I’m without even examining them.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Finally, some logic. Everyone is ready to ban him from medicine for lateness to a OPTIONAL lecture when he wasn’t even late according to his own programs handbook. I’ll never understand the bizarre tendency to view rules as holy dictates I’m without even examining them.

NO one said that, we all clarified that that OP’s school has a dumb policy that quite frankly makes no sense unless we aren’t being told the entire story(very possible) and that OP should obviously point out their own policies in the student handbook to them. At the same time OP does brunt some responsibility for not showing up on time when he/she clearly knew the school was going after them for it and for showing up at all when they were going to be late, when they could have just watched the lecture later at home and faced no consequences. We also rightly pointed out that OP shouldn’t make it a habit of being late and blame the traffic for it, because come 3rd year and beyond you absolutely can get burned for it, no one is saying that being late occasionally is a big deal, but for OP who couldn’t get there say 15 minutes early the 4th time when they KNEW that the school was going after them for it is kind of big deal and irresponsible. Because you best believe that 99.99% of med students would get their behinds there 15 minutes early if the alternative was facing expulsion and ending your medical career, no matter how ludicrous the school policy was. We are more perplexed how OP handled the situation and the nonchalant manner they handled it with to even get into this situation.

 

[Neopolymath]

NO one said that, we all clarified that that OP’s school has a dumb policy that quite frankly makes no sense unless we aren’t being told the entire story(very possible) and that OP should obviously point out their own policies in the student handbook to them. At the same time OP does brunt some responsibility for not showing up on time when he/she clearly knew the school was going after them for it and for showing up at all when they were going to be late, when they could have just watched the lecture later at home and faced no consequences. We also rightly pointed out that OP shouldn’t make it a habit of being late and blame the traffic for it, because come 3rd year and beyond you absolutely can get burned for it, no one is saying that being late occasionally is a big deal, but for OP who couldn’t get there say 15 minutes early the 4th time when they KNEW that the school was going after them for it is kind of big deal and irresponsible. Because you best believe that 99.99% of med students would get their behinds there 15 minutes early if the alternative was facing expulsion and ending your medical career, no matter how ludicrous the school policy was. We are more perplexed how OP handled the situation and the nonchalant manner they handled it with to even get into this situation.

Yeah that dude is tilting at windmills in this thread hardcore

 

[KirksvilleKrunk]

After the first time admin talked to you about being late, you should have planned to show up way early every single time. Weird situation to put yourself fighting admin over handbook rules. You never want to draw any kind of attention to yourself as a vulnerable med student... even if their policy sucks.

 

[Psychstudent!721]

NO one said that, we all clarified that that OP’s school has a dumb policy that quite frankly makes no sense unless we aren’t being told the entire story(very possible) and that OP should obviously point out their own policies in the student handbook to them. At the same time OP does brunt some responsibility for not showing up on time when he/she clearly knew the school was going after them for it and for showing up at all when they were going to be late, when they could have just watched the lecture later at home and faced no consequences. We also rightly pointed out that OP shouldn’t make it a habit of being late and blame the traffic for it, because come 3rd year and beyond you absolutely can get burned for it, no one is saying that being late occasionally is a big deal, but for OP who couldn’t get there say 15 minutes early the 4th time when they KNEW that the school was going after them for it is kind of big deal and irresponsible. Because you best believe that 99.99% of med students would get their behinds there 15 minutes early if the alternative was facing expulsion and ending your medical career, no matter how ludicrous the school policy was. We are more perplexed how OP handled the situation and the nonchalant manner they handled it with to even get into this situation.

So I guess all the comments about “you’re a doctor now, act like it” and “stop crying” is simply pointing out the dumb policy. I am sorry that you took my hyperbole too seriously.
I don’t believe anyone is rightly pointing out anything because OP openly acknowledged he needs to fix his ish. The lack of empathy on here is really astounding “do you need mommy to drive you” and “you’re a doctor now”. It’s like no one really acknowledged that OP technically was late ONCE if in fact the policy is as written.
the only part that I believe is reasonable in your statement is that that policy is so absurd it’s questionable but I’m taking OP at face value. It never ceases to amaze me how often threads on this site turn into “well, you really ought to understand” rather than addressing what the person actually asked or was concerned with.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

So I guess all the comments about “you’re a doctor now, act like it” and “stop crying” is simply pointing out the dumb policy. I am sorry that you took my hyperbole too seriously.
I don’t believe anyone is rightly pointing out anything because OP openly acknowledged he needs to fix his ish. The lack of empathy on here is really astounding “do you need mommy to drive you” and “you’re a doctor now”. It’s like no one really acknowledged that OP technically was late ONCE if in fact the policy is as written.
the only part that I believe is reasonable in your statement is that that policy is so absurd it’s questionable but I’m taking OP at face value. It never ceases to amaze me how often threads on this site turn into “well, you really ought to understand” rather than addressing what the person actually asked or was concerned with.

Brooooooo, if you were OP and the Med school you went to told you “hey we see you have been showing up late to lecture that’s unprofessional please stop or you could be disciplined” would you still show up late or even show up at all if there was no consequence? All Schools have dumb policies in some form or fashion, there is no sugar coating it here, OP could have very easily avoided this situation, fighting with your school over a dumb policy is futile and completely useless and could lead to more grudges in the future if OP isn’t dismissed, the question isn’t that OP should point out the schools policies to them of course he should, but why is OP in this situation to begin with?

 

[Psychstudent!721]

Brooooooo, if you were OP and the Med school you went to told you “hey we see you have been showing up late to lecture that’s unprofessional please stop or you could be disciplined” would you still show up late or even show up at all if there was no consequence? All Schools have dumb policies in some form or fashion, there is no sugar coating it here, OP could have very easily avoided this situation, fighting with your school over a dumb policy is futile and completely useless and could lead to more grudges in the future if OP isn’t dismissed, the question isn’t that OP should point out the schools policies to them of course he should, but why is OP in this situation to begin with?

“Brooooooooo” again, you see only ONE piece of the picture here. If what OP is saying is accurate, he was actually late ONCE. As per his handbook. Since we like the idea “thems are the rules” lets apply that logic. The fact that you think OP is fighting rules just for cheeky giggles and not because he’s facing disciplinary action is a bit bizarre. The whole reason we’re having this brain numbing conversation is because he’s facing repercussions. So, “just stop” is kind of out the window. It’s amazing that fewer people are acknowledging that the school is breaking its own guidelines (if he’s telling the truth) and we’re not understanding he was actually late ONCE, by the institutes rules. It really appears you’re focused on “how is he in the situation” rather than “well, ge shouldn’t be here, but now that he is, what does he do”. There’s more than just “why are you here”

 

[Neopolymath]

“Brooooooooo” again, you see only ONE piece of the picture here. If what OP is saying is accurate, he was actually late ONCE. As per his handbook. Since we like the idea “thems are the rules” lets apply that logic. The fact that you think OP is fighting rules just for cheeky giggles and not because he’s facing disciplinary action is a bit bizarre. The whole reason we’re having this brain numbing conversation is because he’s facing repercussions. So, “just stop” is kind of out the window. It’s amazing that no one is acknowledging that the school is breaking its own guidelines (if he’s telling the truth) and we’re not understanding he was actually late ONCE, by the institutes rules. It really appears you’re focused on “how is he in the situation” rather than “well, ge shouldn’t be here, but now that he is, what does he do”. There’s more than just “why are you here”

No one? Did you read the thread?

 

[gyngyn]

Please disagree with civility...all of you.

 

[Psychstudent!721]

No one? Did you read the thread?

That should read “people less focused on” I’ll edit that thank you for catching my error

 

[Lawpy]

Isn't empathy one of the core values taught/learned while you become a physician? At least I thought so.

On SDN, that value seems to be forgotten. Empathy isn't reserved just for your patients.

Life happens. Things happen. If the outcome has no real negative bearing on anything then perhaps we should look at the bigger picture.

It's the preallo tradition of ripping the OP into shreds in cruel satisfaction that tragically spilled over to the med student side

 

[FutureInternist]

My residency used to have (about 3 years before I started there) a tracking on the badges being scanned for the parking lot so they could tell, to the minute, when you arrived or left.
Luckily there was backlash and they got rid of it.

While you may be technically correct, which Futurama has taught us is the best kind of correct, you have to realise that if they are THIS anal about something so trivial, they will not give you ANY leeway when you may need an extra day off for travel for interviews, or need an early dismissal on a rotation for a doc’s appt.
They can (and seems like WILL) F you over when it comes to MSPE, rotation evals etc.

Pretend to be a buffoon… “Dean, while I realise that I have to be on time from now on, I didn’t think I was actually late since I remember something in the handbook about 10 mins being late”
Then once they correct you that its actually 8 mins, you can just say “Well from my understanding I was 1, 2, 4 mins late” and make a confused face (as best one can in a mask)

This prevents the “gotcha” moment where you have them by the cajones, and allows them to “be magnanimous” and not mention it on any official paperwork.

Also, ONCE YOU START RESIDENCY, please come back and let everyone know just what school is THIS power hungry so future docs can stay the F away.

 

[Psychstudent!721]

My residency used to have (about 3 years before I started there) a tracking on the badges being scanned for the parking lot so they could tell, to the minute, when you arrived or left.
Luckily there was backlash and they got rid of it.

While you may be technically correct, which Futurama has taught us is the best kind of correct, you have to realise that if they are THIS anal about something so trivial, they will not give you ANY leeway when you may need an extra day off for travel for interviews, or need an early dismissal on a rotation for a doc’s appt.
They can (and seems like WILL) F you over when it comes to MSPE, rotation evals etc.

Pretend to be a buffoon… “Dean, while I realise that I have to be on time from now on, I didn’t think I was actually late since I remember something in the handbook about 10 mins being late”
Then once they correct you that its actually 8 mins, you can just say “Well from my understanding I was 1, 2, 4 mins late” and make a confused face (as best one can in a mask)

This prevents the “gotcha” moment where you have them by the cajones, and allows them to “be magnanimous” and not mention it on any official paperwork.

Also, ONCE YOU START RESIDENCY, please come back and let everyone know just what school is THIS power hungry so future docs can stay the F away.

Oh futurama. What a classic show

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

Oh futurama. What a classic show

agreed

 

[Browns99]

Guess you missed the part where he was actually late ONCE because he was in compliance with his schools handbook.

You and the person who liked your post missed the entire point....Regardless of 1 minute, three minutes or whatever, he/she arrived after the start of the class, what don't you understand? Even if it fell in the acceptable allowance of not being "tenchinally late", they nonetheless in fact arrived after the start time. In my book, arriving exactly on time or after on repeated occasions tells me the person does not have their act together.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

A couple points as the thread wanders back and forth between the salient and irrelevant. Salient: Op was late for class. Student handbook has policies on being late.
Salient: Op was chronically late in eyes of administration as demonstrated by their efforts to counsel him. It would be ok to ask for clarification and work within those guidelines.
Irrelevant: It was not a mandatory class.
Irrelevant: It was only a few minutes. That's like saying "I only robbed $10 from the bank."
Salient: Punctuality actually is a big deal and great efforts should be taken to be on time. OR time is probably about $2,500 an hour now. A 10 min delay at 0730 translates into a much later end time 7 or 8 hours later. Even surgeons who end up being chronically late are brought before committees to address this. Your colleagues who managed to be on time begin to resent you after awhile.
Salient: As others point out, 3rd yr will demand being on time. Be late at your own peril.
Salient: Life is full of choices. Make good ones.
Salient: To paraphrase Master Yoda...There is no Try, only Do.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Am I the one lashing out in this situation? I’m confused since I don’t think I was mean to anyone.

You would think, but no. Regular lectures. I remain in the building all day every day so when our labs and group meetings happen, I’m already there. The few guest lecturers we've had have been in the afternoons.

I thought I said this in some other reply but it seems not — the reason given to me in my reprimand notice for this issue was “arriving late causes a distraction and shows lack of respect and regard for other students and lecturers.” It really made me want to just stop going to lectures because it would easily solve the problem but I know my grades would drop tremendously if I did. There’s something about the interaction and ability to ask questions as it happens that maybe solidifies the learning for me.
But like I said, I’ll just try the whole 7 AM thing from now on since it’ll be less hassle than struggling with admin.

Stop going to classes. Or at least skip the first lecture if you arrive late. You are literally bringing this on yourself for no reason.

Bottom line, get to class on time, it's called professionalism and in the real world, patients do not like when physicians are late and keep them waiting. Enough with excuses and the comments about the policy here is doing nothing to address the issue with the poster being LATE, but unfortunately, we want to harp on policy,SMH.

Lol, in the real world my patients show up late all the time and thats usually the reason if I am behind. Or admin wasting my time for some 'urgent' not necessary task. My personal favorite thing to do is when a patient shows up 5 minutes late is grab any of my others I can out of the waiting room.

 

[Browns99]

Stop going to classes. Or at least skip the first lecture if you arrive late. You are literally bringing this on yourself for no reason.

Lol, in the real world my patients show up late all the time and thats usually the reason if I am behind. Or admin wasting my time for some 'urgent' not necessary task. My personal favorite thing to do is when a patient shows up 5 minutes late is grab any of my others I can out of the waiting room.

Stop going to classes. Or at least skip the first lecture if you arrive late. You are literally bringing this on yourself for no reason.

Lol, in the real world my patients show up late all the time and thats usually the reason if I am behind. Or admin wasting my time for some 'urgent' not necessary task. My personal favorite thing to do is when a patient shows up 5 minutes late is grab any of my others I can out of the waiting room.

As a "physician" you rather give advice to "stop going to classes" and "at least skip the first lecture if you arrive late" is really shameful. Maybe you should tell them to be professional and be on time, but after reading your 2nd quote as to discussing patients being late when we are talking about medical professionals being late, and better yet, almost in a spiteful way, taking waiting room patients before the person who arrived late..... tells me a lot about you and I pray that no one I know would ever wind up in your waiting room.

 

[Psychstudent!721]

You and the person who liked your post missed the entire point....Regardless of 1 minute, three minutes or whatever, he/she arrived after the start of the class, what don't you understand? Even if it fell in the acceptable allowance of not being "tenchinally late", they nonetheless in fact arrived after the start time. In my book, arriving exactly on time or after on repeated occasions tells me the person does not have their act together.

Good thing “in my book” doesn’t really matter, respectfully speaking. Despite the point of the whole OP post being “how do I handle my program breaking their contractual obligation to me” what would you recommend this persons punishment be?

 

[Psychstudent!721]

As a "physician" you rather give advice to "stop going to classes" and "at least skip the first lecture if you arrive late" is really shameful. Maybe you should tell them to be professional and be on time, but after reading your 2nd quote as to discussing patients being late when we are talking about medical professionals being late, and better yet, almost in a spiteful way, taking waiting room patients before the person who arrived late..... tells me a lot about you and I pray that no one I know would ever wind up in your waiting room.

Why are you so angry?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Good thing “in my book” doesn’t really matter, respectfully speaking. Despite the point of the whole OP post being “how do I handle my program breaking their contractual obligation to me” what would you recommend this persons punishment be?

The Admin has the perception, which is their reality, that OP is chronically late. OP is obligated to get clarification of these supposed offenses and work within whatever parameters comes from it. Shouldn't be hard to work out. Now, if both sides dig in their heels, well, that's just dumb and whatever comes from that is an unforced error. But, life is full of choices. Hopefully OP makes good ones from here on out.

 

[Browns99]

Good thing “in my book” doesn’t really matter, respectfully speaking. Despite the point of the whole OP post being “how do I handle my program breaking their contractual obligation to me” what would you recommend this persons punishment be?

Here's a novel approach.....be on time, best advice you can give the OP.

 

[Helpful Troll]

Hi everyone,

I’m 3 months into med school and have had a few issues with arriving early, usually due to unpredictability in traffic and the rare personal issue and now I’m being threatened with expulsion due to lateness even though I haven’t been late, based on their policy.

Class begins at 8:00 AM. I was “late” 4 times, arriving at 8:04, 8:01, 8:09 and 8:03, in that order. I was reprimanded the 3rd time and was informed that I may be expelled if I had “repeated tardiness.” The 8:03 arrival prompted them to schedule a hearing regarding my case, scheduled for next Monday.

Contradiction: their Medical Student Handbook states, “Arriving in excess of 8 minutes after the scheduled start time of classes constitutes tardiness.” My notification of the hearing says that I am being referred to X Board for “repeated tardiness, as outlined in the Medical Student Handbook.” However, based on the handbook, Ive only been tardy once.

Since it’s unfortunately past the point of my just arriving at 6 AM and waiting for doors to open, the fact stands that they are disregarding their own policies.

What are my best options now? Do I bring up the deviation from the school handbook and politely fight it by replying to their email mandating a board hearing, apologizing but clarifying that based on the referenced handbook I was not tardy and shouldn’t be punished for a handbook violation if I did not actually violate the handbook? or should/could i Do more?

Should I just tuck my tail and take the punishment? Should I bring someone with me to the hearing?

Regardless of my fighting it, this hearing will be a blemish on my MSPE whether I’m found to have broken 0 policies or 3. Worst case scenario, they expel me and I have to choose a new path.

I appreciate any advice!!

TL;DR — being threatened with expulsion for being “late” several times but according to the handbook”/ definition, Ive only been late once. Should I push back? Or do I just continue to be kind/apologetic and beg for forgiveness? And in either case, what’s the best method to do it? Please help!

Aside: I shouldn’t worry about others, but I must mention the male who is late for every class (12+ minutes 2-3 times weekly). He is an Air Force pilot, so it’s reasonable to say there are no big medical issues and that the only thing keeping him exempt from expulsion is his friendship with the faculty member who has been tracking my attendance.

Also, this isn’t the first time they’ve disregarded their own policies.

@bikinitop What was the outcome of the x board hearing? You ok?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

As a "physician" you rather give advice to "stop going to classes" and "at least skip the first lecture if you arrive late" is really shameful. Maybe you should tell them to be professional and be on time, but after reading your 2nd quote as to discussing patients being late when we are talking about medical professionals being late, and better yet, almost in a spiteful way, taking waiting room patients before the person who arrived late..... tells me a lot about you and I pray that no one I know would ever wind up in your waiting room.

Its spiteful to take early patients in front of late ones? Nope, thats just life. Spiteful would be not seeing them at all. I do what I do for workflow, if every patient is late I can't see all my patients, so zero guilt about having someone wait who showed up late. I understand that many people think they are more important than everyone else, but thats not true. Your reaponse reflects your belief in entitlement, that everyone else should have to wait for one late person. Similar to the issue where OP interupts the entire class with late arrivals cause 'in person' works best for them. So not only do I stand by my advice for them to 'at least skip the first class' or all classes and watch lectures at home, I double down that both comments enforce the same principle.

 

[Browns99]

Its spiteful to take early patients in front of late ones? Nope, thats just life. Spiteful would be not seeing them at all. I do what I do for workflow, if every patient is late I can't see all my patients, so zero guilt about having someone wait who showed up late. I understand that many people think they are more important than everyone else, but thats not true. Your reaponse reflects your belief in entitlement, that everyone else should have to wait for one late person. Similar to the issue where OP interupts the entire class with late arrivals cause 'in person' works best for them. So not only do I stand by my advice for them to 'at least skip the first class' or all classes and watch lectures at home, I double down that both comments enforce the same principle.

You missed the boat......Especially with entitlement, what are you talking about? Again, no one said anything about taking a patient that came in late before one who has been sitting there waiting, but your response that it is "My personal favorite thing to do is when a patient shows up 5 minutes late is grab any of my others I can out of the waiting room" sounds a little off, sure take the ones that have been waiting but to say it's one of your favorite thing to do sounds....well, not good for a doctor.

I do however, hope that the OP gets his/her act together and succeeds in medicine and heeds the sound advice on here to maintain the highest level of professionalism as is expected by all those in medicine.