Honest Starting Salary

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
International students pay more because tuition is not subsidized for them like it is for domestic students.
If you're paying over $400,000 for a dental education, it's sure as hell not subsidized for you either.

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
If you're paying over $400,000 for a dental education, it's sure as hell not subsidized for you either.

They are. Each school is different but public schools receive federal and state funding. They are not solely paid for by clinic fees and student tuition. They might be poorly run and become expensive but they are subsidized.
 
If you're paying over $400,000 for a dental education, it's sure as hell not subsidized for you either.

I do not get it why people pay more than $200k for dental education. People say "I have no choice". You always have a choice. Harsh to hear but reality. I drive a $5k Honda. I could have bought something more and taken out a loan.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
Here's a random single data point:

Had a conversation with an small practice office manager today (she leads front staff and handles all billing). The practice is "rural," less than an hour from Kansas City, two dentists, one owner, one associate. She said they collect 2-3M a year and the associate (26 year old new graduate) collected 600k his first year. Now I am not sure if he will get a percentage of that (or what that contract looks like), but I will ask more questions next time I see her. But either way, this doesn't sound terrible.

I predict lots of who wants to live in KS responses. Whatever. I don't either.
 
People say "I have no choice". You always have a choice. Harsh to hear but reality. I drive a $5k Honda. I could have bought something more and taken out a loan.

Would driving a 20 y/o pickup that your own dad would be ashamed of count? I'm the ultimate tight wad when I was single (can't be one with the wf and kids) and I lived at my parent's 2nd home during DS and USAF (30 min apart). My dad would insult me in front of casual acquaintances of what a loser son I am. I would hold my head and give them the thumbs up like I approve of the insult. After my USAF time, I moved out of state, and started doing full time endo for my first DMO within 6 mos. The following year, I bought a house $100k over my budget in 2003 (4.5 car garage, postcard view of the Pacific NW valley and mountains, 5.5 earthquake resistant for $455k). My dad thinks he knows a lot about real estate (main house in the poorest area at a bottom 5 poorest State) and told my brother living in Colorado that "whatever you do, you must buy a house with a view." My brother is another story all together.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Here's a random single data point:

Had a conversation with an small practice office manager today (she leads front staff and handles all billing). The practice is "rural," less than an hour from Kansas City, two dentists, one owner, one associate. She said they collect 2-3M a year and the associate (26 year old new graduate) collected 600k his first year. Now I am not sure if he will get a percentage of that (or what that contract looks like), but I will ask more questions next time I see her. But either way, this doesn't sound terrible.

I predict lots of who wants to live in KS responses. Whatever. I don't either.

Kansas was still a better state than where I grew up. My state at the time in 1980's always voted no for state lottery (they have it now). My dad wanted to impress others on how much money he was making. He was solo practice OBGYN and general surgeon in a town about 8k in the middle of nowhere. He would drive his Mercedes around when people only make $23k /yr as of 2010 census median income for single tax payer.

If you have no hobbies, don't mind eating hospital cafeteria food like my dad, and don't care if the schools are crappy and underfunded, then poor rural area is great for you. You will be too busy and tired to miss any amenities like nice restaurants and recreational activities.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I feel both blessed and cursed of my living situation and career. I'm blessed that my family is thriving in the Pacific NW. My twin boys got in by lottery to science and engineering academy grade 6-12 offered by our school district. Since we're Asian, not once were my kids told to go back to where we came from. They have so many friends I never had. We have a large number of various ethnic groups along with their cuisine. My brother growing up was ashamed to be Asian and it really affected him profoundly (long story).

I was briefly in a few private offices. Not once did I see more than 4 patients in a day. I talked with a few part-timers who have their own clinics and it takes some time to build up patient base. They also have spouses that make high income so it helps buffer their lack of production. Our COL is pretty high that I can't afford lack of income. However, I am determined not to have my kids grow up the same way I did. I can't wait for my kids to get old enough to shadow my CPA friend I mentioned before on other posts. He has about 14 commercial and residential properties and probably makes more in 1 month than I make the whole year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I feel both blessed and cursed of my living situation and career. I'm blessed that my family is thriving in the Pacific NW. My twin boys got in by lottery to science and engineering academy grade 6-12 offered by our school district. Since we're Asian, not once were my kids told to go back to where we came from. They have so many friends I never had. We have a large number of various ethnic groups along with their cuisine. My brother growing up was ashamed to be Asian and it really affected him profoundly (long story).

I was briefly in a few private offices. Not once did I see more than 4 patients in a day. I talked with a few part-timers who have their own clinics and it takes some time to build up patient base. They also have spouses that make high income so it helps buffer their lack of production. Our COL is pretty high that I can't afford lack of income. However, I am determined not to have my kids grow up the same way I did. I can't wait for my kids to get old enough to shadow my CPA friend I mentioned before on other posts. He has about 14 commercial and residential properties and probably makes more in 1 month than I make the whole year.
CPA that makes enough to acquire 14 properties? Impressive!
 
CPA that makes enough to acquire 14 properties? Impressive!

CPAs know money like we know teeth and chef's know food. Properties have a lot of tax benefits and appreciation and when you put it into a business entity like LLC, S or C corp for passive income, man, you can accumulate of lot of tax friendly income. This guy Graham Stephan is not a CPA and he came from nothing and is in his late 20's I think. His Youtube videos will show you how he acquires properties (about 7, I believe). My CPA friend is in his late 50s so he had a lot of yrs to acquire.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
CPA that makes enough to acquire 14 properties? Impressive!

My mechanic friend is about my age late 40's. His wife is an accountant (non CPA). They have 3 properties, no loans, and he is retired and goes to Hawaii 3-4 times a year. We all think accountants and CPAs do only taxes. Yesterday, an accountant pt told me doing taxes is super boring. They want everybody to know their jobs suck. But I understand they have oversaturation just like us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Everyone mentions that dentists will make more in an undesirable region. What constitutes an undesirable region? Just city vs rural or state vs state? Does average income change if one were to be in North Dakota, MN, nebraska, Iowa??

I grew up in an undesirable area in the 1980s. Undesirable area/regions are that for a reason whether they are remote, poor weather, lacking amenities, schools, jobs, resources, etc. I can't think of any urban areas that are undesirable. I read a post about Detroit being an undesirable city to be quickly corrected by a local dentist. Before Covid, N Dakota had tons of oil money and jobs. I'm not sure how their dental markets compare. I had an endodontist acquaintance whose co-resident practices only 3 months a yr in a S. Dakota Indian reservation making $250k.

IMO, undesirable areas/regions are usually in rural spots of the bottom 5 poorest state. They are usually poor because of lack of resources, jobs, and education. The irony is they need dentists bad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I like to think we are so specialized to the degree that the areas that are poor or rural do not attract major medical attention. So there are even more people that need us because of this. It is weird because people think "oh go to this rich area and be a dentist." Well no because there are many specialized people there. You go to a rural town with a couple thousand people with not a lot, you would be surprised at the demand.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This is a supply and demand issue that is ultimately artificially propped up by the government income based loan program called REPAYE. I’d encourage anyone unfamiliar to check out this link here.


In this example the person taking out $600k in loans would only be paying $445k over the period of 25 years and ultimately having 800k in loans forgiven. The tax payers end up paying for this and it allows students to be able to afford dental school. If the student here understood that their monthly payment would be $6600 a month and the REPAYE program wasn’t an option then they would hopefully go to a different school or just not become a dentist because without the government subsidy in this example it’s not worth it. $600k is outrageous high but a few schools are moving towards this territory. If student loans were forgivable and the government wouldn’t guarantee them we would not see such high tuition prices because the investors giving out the loans would see them as too high of a risk and not enough people would be able to pull $600k out of their a** to pay for school.
View attachment 311318
View attachment 311319
View attachment 311320
It's been a while since you've posted this, but I gotta say that this is completely misleading. You are omitting the fact that the $805,229 that is forgiven will be taxed as income. Currently, based on where you live you could expect to pay anywhere from $340,000 to nearly $400,000 as a tax bomb on that amount. Which would put you in the same ballpark as the other payment plan. However, in 25 years from now, I can guarantee that you would be paying higher taxes in a tax bomb as our country trends towards socialism. Furthermore, your credit would be horrible for your whole life due to your insane amount of debt that you would have and the fact that your debt would keep snowballing. Either way you look at it, REPAYE sounds like a hellish nightmare.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
The ADA average for employee dentists is around 160k and that's about right. That includes people working a variety of days (1 day - 7 days) in a variety of settings. The owner comp the ADA reports is usually low because it's the owner's compensation without distributions.

Most new graduates start out between 500-650/day depending on the area for a while and then the base drops off. If the new graduate is willing to move to a rural area they may find an offer as high as 800 (maybe even $1000/day) but these opportunities are often not what they seem (difficult to uproot your entire life to move to the middle of nowhere to find out the job sucks and you hate the town and you have no social net). I've met new grads making less than 100k a year as they bounce from one bad job to the next (more common than you think), and I've met new grads making more than 200k. Part of this depends on luck, who you know, and how geographically flexible you are.

Many large corps don't actually pay a "salary", instead they pay a draw that calculates to ~120-180k/year, but if you don't produce enough dentistry, you may not be paid as much as you thought you would.

What most associates find is that unless they go the corporate route, they have to secure multiple part-time jobs to make a full-time schedule. Both part-time jobs offer a similar base for 6 months - let's say that's 550/day, and then the base expires. At one job, the associate is only producing enough to average collections of $1600/day 3 days a week and at the other job they are making enough to average $2900/day two days a week. That works out to be $480/day at the first gig and $870/day at the second. So they're making about $3180/week, 48 weeks a year (assuming 2 weeks of unpaid time off/sick leave and 14 days of forced time off due to office closure for Holidays) for a total of 152k/year with no benefits (PT everywhere and dental offices don't usually offer any benefits anyway).

Some associates find that second job where they're producing 2900/day right out of the gate. Some associates find a place where they can produce 5k/day right away, and some bounce from one $1500/day gig to another for YEARS until they finally say F it, and buy their own job (a practice).
I read this when it was first posted a year ago. Now that I am in the process of interviewing and receiving offers, I can say that is is true. I think as a new grad with limited clinical experiences due to the pandemic, the safest way is to work for a corp. Corps are offering 600-650/day depending on the location, 5 days a week, this daily minimum does not expire but also no % of production/collection. Corps also offer a sign-on bonus anywhere between $10k to $30k, 10-14 days PTO and some minimal benefits. So if a new grad manages to stay there for a full year they can make $144k-156k for their first year, and in many cases up to $180k when you add the sign-on bonus. This is definitely not bad in this Covid time. Most corps do not have non-compete clause in their contracts, it's very easy to just leave after 6 months if you don't like it there.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I read this when it was first posted a year ago. Now that I am in the process of interviewing and receiving offers, I can say that is is true. I think as a new grad with limited clinical experiences due to the pandemic, the safest way is to work for a corp. Corps are offering 600-650/day depending on the location, 5 days a week, this daily minimum does not expire but also no % of production/collection. Corps also offer a sign-on bonus anywhere between $10k to $30k, 10-14 days PTO and some minimal benefits. So if a new grad manages to stay there for a full year they can make $144k-156k for their first year, and in many cases up to $180k when you add the sign-on bonus. This is definitely not bad in this Covid time. Most corps do not have non-compete clause in their contracts, it's very easy to just leave after 6 months if you don't like it there.
They'll also work you to death. There's a reason the offer seems great on paper
 
They'll also work you to death. There's a reason the offer seems great on paper
That's how you learn to work more efficiently. The more cases you treat, the more you'll learn. Most young grads are in their mid 20s....young, healthy, zero back problem....they should be able to handle the pressure. This is only temporary. After a few years of hard work at the corps, they will be more prepared to start their own offices than the associate dentists who work at slower private offices.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I read this when it was first posted a year ago. Now that I am in the process of interviewing and receiving offers, I can say that is is true. I think as a new grad with limited clinical experiences due to the pandemic, the safest way is to work for a corp. Corps are offering 600-650/day depending on the location, 5 days a week, this daily minimum does not expire but also no % of production/collection. Corps also offer a sign-on bonus anywhere between $10k to $30k, 10-14 days PTO and some minimal benefits. So if a new grad manages to stay there for a full year they can make $144k-156k for their first year, and in many cases up to $180k when you add the sign-on bonus. This is definitely not bad in this Covid time. Most corps do not have non-compete clause in their contracts, it's very easy to just leave after 6 months if you don't like it there.

why would you even consider no % of production/collection? you know you can still make 600-650$ doing hygiene and exams all day right? add in fills and crowns you can easily break 600-650$ daily guarantee (thats why they can guarantee it for you - they are sure you can break it or else they will fire you then).

dont sell yourself short. negotiate min and higher is % production (like do a monthly min and monthly % production whichever is higher so it average out). believe it or not, some offices during covid time are busier than normal because some offices cut back (due to main dentists' age, health problems)
 
70-80k would be for part timers. Salaries have been going down in pharmacies due to oversaturation of pharmacy schools but if you are a retail pharmacist employed by corporate working 40 hours, you would make at least 120k and that would be on a lower side. Most would make 140k or above.
@Chrish: I'm not sure if you still visit the Dental board or not, but I think it's somewhat relevant here. I have 4 friends graduating in a month from the pharmacy program at my university. Jobs are very saturated in our metro area since we have a pharmacy school pumping out a large class every year and also graduates from programs in other states flock to our city. Walgreens is offering $50/hr and they can only guarantee 32 hours/week. Even if one manages to work 40 hours/week I can only see them making $100k at most. My friends have tried to apply for jobs all over the country and they're very willing to relocate. So if you know a retail job that can pay $120k-$140k my friends would love to know where so they can apply asap. Thank you!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
@Chrish: I'm not sure if you still visit the Dental board or not, but I think it's somewhat relevant here. I have 4 friends graduating in a month from the pharmacy program at my university. Jobs are very saturated in our metro area since we have a pharmacy school pumping out a large class every year and also graduates from programs in other states flock to our city. Walgreens is offering $50/hr and they can only guarantee 32 hours/week. Even if one manages to work 40 hours week I can only see them making $100k at most. My friends have tried to apply for jobs all over the countries and they're very willing to relocate. So if you know a retail job that can pay $120k-$140k my friends would love to know where so they can apply asap. Thank you!
from what I know about pharmacy job market, whatever this guy/gal says is absolutely correct. there is even news the offer hourly rate is mid 40 now (45-47) and 24 hours a week guarantee with floating position....aka you may have to commute 2 hour round trip for a 5 hour shift.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This is insanity. when I was applying to d school a few years back I saw UOP's tuition as 100k so I never even applied. I genuinely hope that we get to the point where no one applies to these schools. It is criminal and a huge uphill battle to pay off 500k if ever done
We do realize that UOP's DDS program is three years long, don't we? In total, I don't think it is a lot more expensive than other private school dds programs, nonetheless the year saved to start ones career earlier.
 
We do realize that UOP's DDS program is three years long, don't we? In total, I don't think it is a lot more expensive than other private school dds programs, nonetheless the year saved to start ones career earlier.
Yes, and their cost is still >500k which is absurd. All private schools are ridiculously expensive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
from what I know about pharmacy job market, whatever this guy/gal says is absolutely correct. there is even news the offer hourly rate is mid 40 now (45-47) and 24 hours a week guarantee with floating position....aka you may have to commute 2 hour round trip for a 5 hour shift.
I find it very sad that pharmacists have to go through 4 years of professional school after college and get paid $50/hr. Heck even those jobs have tons of applicants that have to compete with each other. Whereas a dental hygienist in the same metro area gets paid $300/day or roughly $38-40/hr fresh out of school, and they get plenty of job offers so they can be picky. If I were a pharmacist that is having a hard time finding a job I would probably go back to school for a 2-year dental hygiene program.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.
Let me quote their website.

" Tuition for the 2020-2021 academic year for the DDS, IDS, Ortho and Endo programs is $117,020. ".

Now let me spell it out for you.
Tuition for DDS program = 117,020
Tuition for IDS program = 117,020
Tuition for Ortho program = 117,020
Tuition for Endo program = 117,020.

Then of course it costs more when you add on the fees.

Tuition at UOP has went up 2% since your post from last October.

Tuition for the 2021-2022 academic year for the DDS, IDS, Ortho and Endo programs is $119,360.

If you include origination fees and interest... It’s about $400k to attend their DDS program this fall. If you are a pre-dent, you should expect this school to cost you additional $50k if you are applying within the next 2 years. And if you consider specializing at UOP in 6 years, expect additional $300-400k in fees.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
They'll also work you to death. There's a reason the offer seems great on paper
Public health can work you to death just as easily while paying you less. At least in public health you get decent benefits and vacation time...
 
Top