Honest Starting Salary

[ToothJockey]

So you are saying I'm right then? You didn't have to live through the era of greedy and exploitative schools. Pretty selfish of you to not care about others going through school now just because you are done with it.

Bro Cold Front is on our side lmao

He's created many threads about how absurd these school prices are. In fact Cold Front is one of the few dentists that is vocal about the issue. There are plenty of dentists out there that actually couldn't care less because they've already secured their nut.

You're going after the wrong person. Invest this energy into solving the problem

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[New_Vegas]

You're going after the wrong person. Invest this energy into solving the problem

Well he sure seemed to be siding with the schools in response to my comment. And I'm powerless to solve the problem. I don't plan on giving ADA or any other organized dentistry money either because they haven't done a good job of curbing these bastards. They gave a speech at my school on how they are doing so much to combat dental therapists, but it doesn't really seem like they are to me. Seems like it's lip service, just someone else who wants to take money from me. Empty promises from a politicians if you will. I'm not convinced that there are too many older dentists who want to right the ship either. They seem to think there's something in it for them for the current situation (aka it creates a buyers market when they sell their practice). And/or they think they can hire cheaper labor with therapists opposed to associates.. etc. If there is any effort that's going to make a change, I think it's going to have to be from younger dentists, and I think they are going to have to form a separate organization with the sole purpose of making this change.

I really do think this issue is egregious enough that if there were enough loud voices to alert politicians, that they really could make a change. I mean this is one of those issues that I think could have bipartisan support. No way a school should be charging close to 100k or more in tuition. That's ludicrous. And like I said, I'm not even coming from an "expensive" school.

 

[allantois]

Charge dental deans with fraud and you'll see things change

 

[LaughingGas]

Charge dental deans with fraud and you'll see things change

all they will do is replace with a new one

 

[LFA20]

And it's up to the government to protect and defend it's people. If you think colleges and universities have the right to do whatever they want, then why don't you read up on thousands of laws and regulations put on people Compliance Matrix - Higher Education Compliance Alliance. I think it's about time the government steps in and draws the line on how bad it can screw students over.


Except most colleges aren't "private businesses" because they are funded with state and federal dollars.


Easy for you to wag the cane when you didn't have to go through this era of greedy schools. And guess what? I am going to a "cheap school". But I still care about those who are being exploited by dishonest institutions. It affects you. The number of graduating dentists affects you. As a taxpayer it affects you when you have to absorb the debt these students can't pay off.

However, often older dentists are just as anxious as anyone to ruin this profession. More graduating dentists means a sellers market when you want to sell your practice and retire. And higher debt of graduating students means more corporate competition to buy the practice as well.

Lol are you sure about that buddy? Sure looks to me that $280,000 in 2010 is worth closer to $339,000 to me today.

View attachment 311238View attachment 311239View attachment 311241
Sources:

CPI Inflation Calculator

www.bls.gov

Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value From 1913-2024

Easily calculate how the buying power of the U.S. dollar has changed from 1913 to 2024. Get inflation rates and U.S. inflation news.

www.usinflationcalculator.com

Inflation Calculator 2024 - Calculate U.S. Inflation by Year

SmartAsset's inflation calculator can help you determine how inflation affects the value of your current funds. Check it out here.

smartasset.com

So you are saying I'm right then? You didn't have to live through the era of greedy and exploitative schools. Pretty selfish of you to not care about others going through school now just because you are done with it.

If he doesn’t care he would have not warned potential incoming students about the skyrocketing cost of dentistry. In fact he could have just told them to attend dental school and not worry about the cost.

Just because he said no one forced you to take on dental school debt doesn’t mean he is siding with the school for charging outrageous fees. The decision is in your hands. The schools do not put a gun to your head to attend.

I graduated dental school in 2018 and have been on sdn many years before that. When I was applying I stumbled upon few threads talking about cost of dental school. Honestly I didn’t even care about the finances until my acceptances rolled in. Then I was like “**** how am I gonna pay for this”... luckily someone had posted something about military/nhsc scholarship. I quickly applied and received it few months later.

Predents should consider themselves very lucky to have been warned about this issue.

 

[Cold Front]

Well he sure seemed to be siding with the schools in response to my comment. And I'm powerless to solve the problem.

How did I side with the schools? Saying schools have the right to charge any tuition and fees they want makes me siding with them?

Schools are not evil, they are just like any other business that have the goal to maximize the opportunity presented with them. The ratio of applicants to # seats in US dental schools is 1.8 as of 2018-2019 cycle. On average, that means schools have almost 2 applicants competing for each seat... so why would they not raise their tuition and fees? If you complain about it, then the another applicant gets the seat. End of story, there is nothing else left to talk about. Go home!

If you are in line at a Starbucks Coffee store and you don’t like how much they charge for coffee, leave the line, the next customer will get served. Starbucks will not change their price for a single customer. But if everyone didn’t go to Starbucks, then you stand a chance to see a change in their coffee prices.

Back to the original topic. How is the cost of dental education established in the first place? Holding all else equal, in a competitive dental school market, the tuition price for educating one student will vary until it settles at a point where the education demanded (at the current price) will equal the availability of a seat supplied (at the current price), resulting in an economic equilibrium for price and quantity of seats transacted. So if the equilibrium shifts in one direction, the price will change. In a capitalistic society, the prices of goods and services are determined this way. The ADA, or any other dental organization today or in the future cannot change that economic model. You can cry about it, but that’s the model every business uses. One day, hopefully, you with explain this concept to a patient who complains to you about the price of a filling or an extraction at your office.

 

[New_Vegas]

Schools are not evil

Some aren't. Some honestly try to keep costs low. Some are evil. Period.
You don't have to try to convince me about supply and demand, I know that. Where I fundamentally disagree with you is that you think people should take a passive role in this and just "not apply to those schools". I got news for you buddy, that's never going to happen. This problem won't be solved without active fighting against it. And naive people will never stop applying or going to these schools.

Tell me how this isn't evil?

That's tuition. Now for the fees.

That's as evil as can be and you won't be able to justify this to me based on the argument of "fReE mArKeT" either. The government, since it's inception, has interfered with the free market. From breaking up monopolies, to slapping on rules and regulations.. No amount of mental gymnastics can defend this.

 

[yappy]

Free market principals do not apply to situations involving state ran institutions and federal loans.... unless you're a fascist (state capitalism).

 

[Cold Front]

This problem won't be solved without active fighting against it.

Good luck and let us know if dental schools change their rising tuition anytime soon.

 

[New_Vegas]

Good luck and let us know if dental schools change their rising tuition anytime soon.

Yeah that's the defeatist attitude that will never get anything changed. And is completely the reason why nothing will ever get changed. Thanks for proving the point - apathy is the reason why we are here.

 

[Cold Front]

Yeah that's the defeatist attitude that will never get anything changed. And is completely the reason why nothing will ever get changed. Thanks for proving the point - apathy is the reason why we are here.

Judging/attacking other applicants, students and doctors won’t change the problem.

 

[New_Vegas]

Judging/attacking other applicants, students and doctors won’t change the problem.

I haven't attacked you any more than you've attacked me.

 

[frozenicecreamDMD]

I haven't attacked you any more than you've attacked me.

I am not siding with anyone but I have been on SDN for many years and Cold Front has been a huge resource and volunteer to be vocal about student loan debt. One of his posts actually raised my initial concern about dental school debt many years ago. He compiles and publishes data that allow me to see how tuition charges change from year to year and I find this very helpful.

I take from your screen name you are in Vegas so UNLV in state tuition won't be a big cost to you so why would you engage in the expensive dental school price debate.

To be honest with you, if you are an immigrant or come from a poor working family background, a DMD/DDS even with heavy debt is the only ticket for you to ensure a solid living for your whole life. What can you do with a Bio degree in undergrad if not dental? medicine? probably too hard and too long, Pharmacy PA/NP, podiatry, PT/Chiro, or optometrist all have their down sides.

you can't force price on any good/service unless you curb the demand, and for now, the demand for a DMD/DDS is still strong and with the recession going on, it will not go away. As far as I know, during recession, healthcare application numbers go up.

we are all mad with exorbitant tuition prices posted by some dental school but if you study hard, focus on yourself, and score a ticket to less expensive in state dental school, your life is okay. you don't need to worry about other students who have lower stats or only have expensive dental schools to choose from because that is their lives. As long as they make an informed decision (Cold Front is providing the info to make this decision) and are able to deal with the consequence, they are good to go.

 

[New_Vegas]

I am not siding with anyone but

You are siding with someone.

I take from your screen name you are in Vegas so UNLV in state tuition won't be a big cost to you so why would you engage in the expensive dental school price debate.

LOL hell no I'm not from vegas. Good thing too, because that UNLV school is quite expensive.

we are all mad with exorbitant tuition prices posted by some dental school but if you study hard, focus on yourself, and score a ticket to less expensive in state dental school, your life is okay. you don't need to worry about other students who have lower stats or only have expensive dental schools to choose from because that is their lives. As long as they make an informed decision (Cold Front is providing the info to make this decision) and are able to deal with the consequence, they are good to go.

Right? Look, I've already done what you have said by getting into a cheap school. I'm most likely going to get into a cheap residency here soon too. But that's not the point, the point is that you are mad about it... But you don't want to do anything about it. That's what I don't understand. So this trend of exploitation will continue due to apathy. People don't care enough to make a change. People literally don't care about others. It's frustrating to me. You allow yourselves and others to get taken advantage of, and I'm really not cool with that. I don't think others should be either, because these schools are ruining the present and future of dentistry.

 

[Cold Front]

we are all mad with exorbitant tuition prices posted by some dental school... (Cold Front is providing the info to make this decision)

There are a lot of misleading dental career information and guidance around us, and those of us with the experience to understand that information can speak up and help pre-dents - no matter how sensitive or angry the truth makes them feel about dental school and dental profession in general.

 

[New_Vegas]

There are a lot of misleading dental career information and guidance around us, and those of us with the experience to understand that information can speak up and help pre-dents - no matter how sensitive or angry the truth makes them feel about dental school and dental profession in general.

That's one way to go about it. I will supplement that with putting pressure on organized dentistry, putting pressure legislators, and being proactive in combating this trend of exploitation. I agree with you, and I up the ante. I say we aren't doing enough.

 

[Cold Front]

That's one way to go about it. I will supplement that with putting pressure on organized dentistry, putting pressure legislators, and being proactive in combating this trend of exploitation. I agree with you, and I up the ante. I say we aren't doing enough.

You are preaching to the choir. This topic was discussed for decades on these forums. Many students, residents and doctors came and left with your view points, but they realized the high tuition issue was too big to change. Without a new information, specifics or set of new ideas on how to address it, frustrating yourself is not a good place to start. Maybe call a reporter on CBS 60 minutes and ask them to do an investigative piece on dental school tuition and an interview with you on the issue. That’s something no one mentioned before, and sounds lot better than being frustrated with me.

 

[New_Vegas]

You are preaching to the choir. This topic was discussed for decades on these forums. Many students, residents and doctors came and left with your view points, but they realized the high tuition issue was too big to change. Without a new information, specifics or set of new ideas on how to address it, frustrating yourself is not a good place to start. Maybe call a reporter on CBS 60 minutes and ask them to do an investigative piece on dental school tuition and an interview with you on the issue. That’s something no one mentioned before, and sounds lot better than being frustrated with me.

Cool man, I'm so happy for you that you watched people come and leave on this forum. What keeps you here?

All you are saying is that it can't be changed? Well what did you do yourself to change it? I just think it's a non-issue to too many people.

 

[ToothJockey]

Actions speak louder than words. Once pre-dental students stop applying to dental schools due to their outrageous costs, things will change.

So what we can do as students/dentists is to educate pre-dents about the financial ramifications of dental school. Then maybe 5000 people won't apply to NYU or USC every year. Without applicants, schools will be forced to change, either bring down their tuition or close down all together.

And that is what Cold Front has been doing. He posts a thread about the COA of USC every year to bring awareness to how high the costs are. There are pre-dents on this forum who have said that these threads about debt have opened their eyes on the financials of dentistry. I can attest to that, I'm one of them.

You are going after the wrong person here.

 

[Cold Front]

Cool man, I'm so happy for you that you watched people come and leave on this forum. What keeps you here?

All you are saying is that it can't be changed? Well what did you do yourself to change it? I just think it's a non-issue to too many people.

You hijacked this thread from the OP with a series of rabbit hole questions. Use the PM feature to spare everyone from those direct questions to me.

 

[LaughingGas]

Cool man, I'm so happy for you that you watched people come and leave on this forum. What keeps you here?

All you are saying is that it can't be changed? Well what did you do yourself to change it? I just think it's a non-issue to too many people.

I mean there are people like Paul Goodman in Dental Nachos that tries to give talk to dental students about the fees/loans and pretty much schools don't let those type of people come in to open predents/people's eyes.

 

[PreDent2015]

I have not seen any $750 minimum guarantee offers yet as an AEGD grad. I'm interviewing at a place for 600. My friend accepted 650.

Where are you looking for GP jobs? Are you staying in Buffalo?

Where'd your friend accept 650?

 

[pubhealthdent]

I mean there are people like Paul Goodman in Dental Nachos that tries to give talk to dental students about the fees/loans and pretty much schools don't let those type of people come in to open predents/people's eyes.

They don't want Paul meeting with students because all he does is try to sell them his CE.

 

[monkeykey]

This is a supply and demand issue that is ultimately artificially propped up by the government income based loan program called REPAYE. I’d encourage anyone unfamiliar to check out this link here.

Student Loan Revised Pay As You Earn (REPAYE) Calculator - MagnifyMoney

This Student Loan Revised Pay As You Earn (REPAYE) calculator will show how enrolling in the REPAYE plan could help lower your monthly payments and allow for foregiveness of your student loans.

www.magnifymoney.com

In this example the person taking out $600k in loans would only be paying $445k over the period of 25 years and ultimately having 800k in loans forgiven. The tax payers end up paying for this and it allows students to be able to afford dental school. If the student here understood that their monthly payment would be $6600 a month and the REPAYE program wasn’t an option then they would hopefully go to a different school or just not become a dentist because without the government subsidy in this example it’s not worth it. $600k is outrageous high but a few schools are moving towards this territory. If student loans were forgivable and the government wouldn’t guarantee them we would not see such high tuition prices because the investors giving out the loans would see them as too high of a risk and not enough people would be able to pull $600k out of their a** to pay for school.

 

[Faux]

Where are you looking for GP jobs? Are you staying in Buffalo?

Where'd your friend accept 650?

Friend NC.

I'm looking NY/FL/ SC. I did see a NY offer (1 hour from NYC) for 700 min.

 

[LegendaryPanda]

So what we can do as students/dentists is to educate pre-dents about the financial ramifications of dental school. Then maybe 5000 people won't apply to NYU or USC every year. Without applicants, schools will be forced to change, either bring down their tuition or close down all together.

The unfortunate bit here is that people look at the DDS degree and 150k+ salary and their eyes go $$. Even if less people apply to those schools, they will just lower the bar. This is what's happening to pharmacy to create the 85% acceptance rate. The battle for lowering student loans probably has to start on another front.

 

[Cold Front]

The unfortunate bit here is that people look at the DDS degree and 150k+ salary and their guys go $$. Even if less people apply to those schools, they will just lower the bar. This is what's happening to pharmacy to create the 85% acceptance rate. The battle for lowering student loans probably has to start on another front.

Exactly. I mentioned in a previous post, that over the next decade, I project 5 more new schools will open (1 in EL Paso, TX next year). The application pool will decline gradually, will not breach below 1:1 applicant:seat ratio. Which means lower DAT scores and GPA acceptance rate by 2030. It makes sense, more B/B- average grade students will be super stoked about becoming a dentist once they get those easy interview/acceptance letters. This is a golden ticket in their minds, and will take the high student loans in a heart beat.

 

[ToothJockey]

Exactly. I mentioned in a previous post, that over the next decade, I project 5 more new schools will open (1 in EL Paso, TX next year). The application pool will decline gradually, will not breach below 1:1 applicant:seat ratio. Which means lower DAT scores and GPA acceptance rate by 2030. It makes sense, more B/B- average grade students will be super stoked about becoming a dentist once they get those easy interview/acceptance letters. This is a golden ticket in their minds, and will take the high student loans in a heart beat.

This is pretty unfortunate.

In my opinion the standards to enter a profession where you will operate on human beings should be high and there has to be systems in place so that the standards don't get lowered. This is serious stuff, dental schools will probably accept students who regularly cut corners. I wouldn't want these people operating on me.

I hope CODA de-accredits these schools (if possible) before it gets to this point.

 

[LaughingGas]

This is a supply and demand issue that is ultimately artificially propped up by the government income based loan program called REPAYE. I’d encourage anyone unfamiliar to check out this link here.

Student Loan Revised Pay As You Earn (REPAYE) Calculator - MagnifyMoney

This Student Loan Revised Pay As You Earn (REPAYE) calculator will show how enrolling in the REPAYE plan could help lower your monthly payments and allow for foregiveness of your student loans.

www.magnifymoney.com

In this example the person taking out $600k in loans would only be paying $445k over the period of 25 years and ultimately having 800k in loans forgiven. The tax payers end up paying for this and it allows students to be able to afford dental school. If the student here understood that their monthly payment would be $6600 a month and the REPAYE program wasn’t an option then they would hopefully go to a different school or just not become a dentist because without the government subsidy in this example it’s not worth it. $600k is outrageous high but a few schools are moving towards this territory. If student loans were forgivable and the government wouldn’t guarantee them we would not see such high tuition prices because the investors giving out the loans would see them as too high of a risk and not enough people would be able to pull $600k out of their a** to pay for school.
View attachment 311318
View attachment 311319
View attachment 311320

did you include the tax bomb?

 

[charlestweed]

Exactly. I mentioned in a previous post, that over the next decade, I project 5 more new schools will open (1 in EL Paso, TX next year). The application pool will decline gradually, will not breach below 1:1 applicant:seat ratio. Which means lower DAT scores and GPA acceptance rate by 2030. It makes sense, more B/B- average grade students will be super stoked about becoming a dentist once they get those easy interview/acceptance letters. This is a golden ticket in their minds, and will take the high student loans in a heart beat.

I've kept saying that it's a lot easier to get into dental schools than med schools and many people here disagree with me.

 

[Cold Front]

I've kept saying that it's a lot easier to get into dental schools than med schools and many people here disagree with me.

A lot of people disagree with everything around here lately. The competitive students with high GPA and DAT scores have started to migrate to medical school path already.

 

[New_Vegas]

The unfortunate bit here is that people look at the DDS degree and 150k+ salary and their guys go $$. Even if less people apply to those schools, they will just lower the bar. This is what's happening to pharmacy to create the 85% acceptance rate. The battle for lowering student loans probably has to start on another front.

That's what I think too. In fact, my mind cannot conceive a less effective strategy than making scary posts so pre-dents don't apply.

On a website that likely only a fraction of pre-dents use, might I add.

 

[axiumgod]

A lot of people disagree with everything around here lately. The competitive students with high GPA and DAT scores have started to migrate to medical school path already.

I normally agree with what you have to say, but on what basis are you saying this? Pretty sure GPA + DAT averages continue to rise almost every year. And anecdotally, I know more high stat students including myself who switched from pre-med to pre-dent. Not saying dental school is more competitive than med but saying the most competitive students are switching seems like a baseless claim.

 

[Cold Front]

I normally agree with what you have to say, but on what basis are you saying this? Pretty sure GPA + DAT averages continue to rise almost every year. And anecdotally, I know more high stat students including myself who switched from pre-med to pre-dent. Not saying dental school is more competitive than med but saying the most competitive students are switching seems like a baseless claim.

Why did you switch from Medical path? I was referring to recent applicants over the last couple of years; the ones I know in person and people I read their experiences online. Dentistry is getting tougher to make it - high tuition, less employee benefits and vacations compared to MD path, etc. Unless you are business savvy, dentistry can be financially stagnant as an associate, mainly due to major pushbacks from dental insurances and declining reimbursement for dental services.

 

[allantois]

MD schools are insanely competitive. However, when you add DO schools in the mix, dental and medical admissions seem like a toss up in competitiveness.

 

[New_Vegas]

Why did you switch from Medical path? I was referring to recent applicants over the last couple of years; the ones I know in person and people I read their experiences online. Dentistry is getting tougher to make it - high tuition, less employee benefits and vacations compared to MD path, etc.

Apologies for blowing up the thread. I'm still in semi-quarantine and am pretty bored.

I think the reasons are the same for anyone. The medical field... Well you would have to deal with super-mega-ultra corporate in hospitals. And you would have to work in a hospital (most likely). Plus, so much on-call... And bad hours.. And long hours... I thought I wanted to be pre-med in undergrad until I realized how much I hated hospitals and how I would be miserable as a doctor.

The only thing is I've noticed people are somewhat condescending towards dentists/dentistry sometimes. Like some dickhead told me "oh you're going to dental school, is that because you couldn't get into med school?" I had nearly a perfect 4.0 in college, research publications, and all this other stuff. I could have gotten in to med school, but would have hated life.

With dentistry at least I'll have autonomy. And if you don't graduate with a lot of student debt, dentistry isn't too bad. I mean, dentistry is declining but so is medicine. When you are your own boss you can take as much vacation as you want.

 

[LegendaryPanda]

A lot of people disagree with everything around here lately. The competitive students with high GPA and DAT scores have started to migrate to medical school path already.

This is one thing I don’t fully agree on. I did some research and posted a few weeks ago the average scores for MD/DO and DDS/DMD enrollees. While MD schools are way more competitive than Dental (3.72 and 85 percentile on MCAT), DO schools seem to be around the ballpark of or even less competitive than dental (DO 3.53, 64 percentile MCAT, Dental 3.55, 77 percentile DAT). Meaning if you have what it takes to be a dentist, you have what it takes to get into a DO school.

I also think some students choose dentistry over medicine due to the nature of the job. I had friends with 3.8+ who actively steered themselves away from medicine because of the “burden.” Medicine is inherently more stressful, and if you work at a hospital, you have to be on call. Most DOs don’t end up specializing and end up working in hospitals and don’t really get the balance of life benefit that dentists get... you know, besides the lower pay and more debt bit.

 

[LFA20]

This is one thing I don’t fully agree on. I did some research and posted a few weeks ago the average scores for MD/DO and DDS/DMD enrollees. While MD schools are way more competitive than Dental (3.72 and 85 percentile on MCAT), DO schools seem to be around the ballpark of or even less competitive than dental (DO 3.53, 64 percentile MCAT, Dental 3.55, 77 percentile DAT). Meaning if you have what it takes to be a dentist, you have what it takes to get into a DO school.

I also think some students choose dentistry over medicine due to the nature of the job. I had friends with 3.8+ who actively steered themselves away from medicine because of the “burden.” Medicine is inherently more stressful, and if you work at a hospital, you have to be on call. Most DOs don’t end up specializing and end up working in hospitals and don’t really get the balance of life benefit that dentists get... you know, besides the lower pay and more debt bit.

But the MCAT is way harder than DAT

 

[LegendaryPanda]

But the MCAT is way harder than DAT

Having taken both, I’d say that 75-80 on the DAT is quite comparable to 65 on the MCAT and that is why I said they are pretty even. Perhaps the gap is even closer. If you do well on the DAT 22+, you’re going to do quite well on the MCAT. I personally scored a 31MCAT (~83 percentile) and a 23DAT (~95 percentile)

 

[AONLINE]

Medicine is inherently more stressful, and if you work at a hospital, you have to be on call. Most DOs don’t end up specializing and end up working in hospitals and don’t really get the balance of life benefit that dentists get... you know, besides the lower pay and more debt bit.

I was under the impression that a majority of DOs goes into primary care/family medicine, thus cushy 9-5 jobs vs the specialist surgeons who work 80 hours a week in hospital setting. Is that wrong?

 

[New_Vegas]

I was under the impression that a majority of DOs goes into primary care/family medicine, thus cushy 9-5 jobs vs the specialist surgeons who work 80 hours a week in hospital setting. Is that wrong?

You get paid like crap in primary care. Surgeons may work slightly more hours, but I really doubt 80 per week. That's residency type of hours. Then the surgeons get paid 2.5x, 3x, 4x, or more the amount of a primary care physician.

 

[BasicG]

And you would have to work in a hospital (most likely). Plus, so much on-call... And bad hours.. And long hours... I thought I wanted to be pre-med in undergrad until I realized how much I hated hospitals and how I would be miserable as a doctor.

Seriously, hospitals suck. I was a premed until I worked as a therapist aide in a hospital and brought patients to PT/OT from their rooms. Death and sickness was constantly in the air and I knew I could not work in that type of environment for 30+ years. Dental offices are a lot more tame in comparison

 

[mmc12]

Seriously, hospitals suck. I was a premed until I worked as a therapist aide in a hospital and brought patients to PT/OT from their rooms. Death and sickness was constantly in the air and I knew I could not work in that type of environment for 30+ years. Dental offices are a lot more tame in comparison

To be fair, a lot of physicians don't work in hospitals (a lot are in outpatient settings) and not all physicians deal with "death and sickness"

 

[axiumgod]

Why did you switch from Medical path? I was referring to recent applicants over the last couple of years; the ones I know in person and people I read their experiences online. Dentistry is getting tougher to make it - high tuition, less employee benefits and vacations compared to MD path, etc. Unless you are business savvy, dentistry can be financially stagnant as an associate, mainly due to major pushbacks from dental insurances and declining reimbursement for dental services.

I switched for a few reasons, but a big one was work/life balance. Its hard to lower your handicap if you're working 60+ hours a week...

And thanks for clarifying. I've been reading a lot about similar pitfalls, but luckily I was awarded the HPSP which mitigates some of them. Ironically though, the physicians I shadowed were the ones who complained incessantly about insurance and declining reimbursements.

 

[charlestweed]

Getting into a cheap state dental school is probably almost as hard as getting into med school because of the limited number of seats but if you don't have great stats, you can still become a dentist by getting into a more expensive private dental school. Having a good GPA and MCAT score is not enough to get into most med schools. To increase your chance for med school, you need have other things like research, leadership skills, volunteering, and other extracurricular activities. If you are Asian, your chance for med school acceptance is much lower because of the large number of Asian applicants and only a certain % of Asian will get acccepted.

 

[allDAT]

I mean there are people like Paul Goodman in Dental Nachos that tries to give talk to dental students about the fees/loans and pretty much schools don't let those type of people come in to open predents/people's eyes.

This is actually very complicated. I gave a lecture to a pre-dental society at one of California’s UCs about the economics of dentistry and I would gladly do a lecture like this annually - however, I basically pissed off the leadership in the organization because members of the club began questioning them about dentistry and student loans. To further complicate the situation, the content of my presentation upset the deans who visited the program which put the club’s leadership in a difficult spot. Since the deans support many of these programs, they don’t necessarily encourage true transparency for pre-dental students.

 

[Cold Front]

This is one thing I don’t fully agree on. I did some research and posted a few weeks ago the average scores for MD/DO and DDS/DMD enrollees. While MD schools are way more competitive than Dental (3.72 and 85 percentile on MCAT), DO schools seem to be around the ballpark of or even less competitive than dental (DO 3.53, 64 percentile MCAT, Dental 3.55, 77 percentile DAT). Meaning if you have what it takes to be a dentist, you have what it takes to get into a DO school.

I also think some students choose dentistry over medicine due to the nature of the job. I had friends with 3.8+ who actively steered themselves away from medicine because of the “burden.” Medicine is inherently more stressful, and if you work at a hospital, you have to be on call. Most DOs don’t end up specializing and end up working in hospitals and don’t really get the balance of life benefit that dentists get... you know, besides the lower pay and more debt bit.

I didn’t say “all” competitive dental applicants are switching to the MD path, but based on my observation of the people I met and know - I see more of the highly qualified dental applicants PM me or call me and tell me that the profession gave them a pause after they did a lot of research and they were applying to medical school. I wasn’t speaking of the general applicant pool, but the people that reached out to me.

 

[Cold Front]

I switched for a few reasons, but a big one was work/life balance. Its hard to lower your handicap if you're working 60+ hours a week...

And thanks for clarifying. I've been reading a lot about similar pitfalls, but luckily I was awarded the HPSP which mitigates some of them. Ironically though, the physicians I shadowed were the ones who complained incessantly about insurance and declining reimbursements.

I have a younger brother who went to MD school for 9 yrs to become MD anesthesiologist. He is 30 now. He gets 10 weeks paid vacation, $600k salary for 45-50hrs a week schedule, plus additional perks.

 

[yappy]

I have a younger brother who went to MD school for 9 yrs to become MD anesthesiologist. He is 30 now. He gets 10 weeks paid vacation, $600k salary for 45-50hrs a week schedule, plus additional perks.

lol oh dang. The logistics of that job are so much better than dentistry. Especially for a short residency like anesthesia. I've always thought that there is too much made of dental incomes. You will see "lifestyle" being thrown around when we're actually paid low for our education level.

 

[mmc12]

lol oh dang. The logistics of that job are so much better than dentistry. Especially for a short residency like anesthesia. I've always thought that there is too much made of dental incomes. You will see "lifestyle" being thrown around when we're actually paid low our education level.

Yeah but anesthesia is super stressful....