Honest Starting Salary

[charlestweed]

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lol oh dang. The logistics of that job are so much better than dentistry. Especially for a short residency like anesthesia. I've always thought that there is too much made of dental incomes. You will see "lifestyle" being thrown around when we're actually paid low our education level.

My cousin is also a MD anesthesiologist. It's a 4-year residency after med school (1 yr of internal medicine and then 3 years anesthesiology training). He hates his job. The work hours are terrible. The surgeons, whom he works with, don't respect him. He wishes to be a dentist like me and many of his successful dentist friends. I remember when my younger brother, who is 10 younger than I am, applied for med schools, my cousin told him that he should apply for dental schools instead. My younger brother is a GI doc and he loves his job.

 

[LaughingGas]

This is actually very complicated. I gave a lecture to a pre-dental society at one of California’s UCs about the economics of dentistry and I would gladly do a lecture like this annually - however, I basically pissed off the leadership in the organization because members of the club began questioning them about dentistry and student loans. To further complicate the situation, the content of my presentation upset the deans who visited the program which put the club’s leadership in a difficult spot. Since the deans support many of these programs, they don’t necessarily encourage true transparency for pre-dental students.

Good job. No one teaches predents about true meaning of financial debt and expect them to swim with us ( or at least with me, lol) to get out of it. In dental school they scared us about all this legal issues about consent forms and what not but no one really explains the financial burden to these adults.

 

[2TH MVR]

Geez. Nobody is happy and the grass is always greener lol.

 

[yappy]

Geez. Nobody is happy and the grass is always greener lol.

I'm happy, but I actually like dentistry and I am debt free.

However, I will never make 600k or get 10 wks of paid vacation. Hell, I work as many hrs as his MD brother. For my wage he could work 1/3 of the time. I'm just trying to dispell the myth that dentistry is easy or well paid.
Do dentistry only if you like dentistry.

 

[axiumgod]

lol oh dang. The logistics of that job are so much better than dentistry. Especially for a short residency like anesthesia. I've always thought that there is too much made of dental incomes. You will see "lifestyle" being thrown around when we're actually paid low for our education level.

What other doctoral level degree pays more than dentistry on average, besides MD/DO? None, according to BLS. But I can also see how having high debt might make a $160k average salary not feel very high. Regardless, Cold Front’s brother is rolling in it.

Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2021-31 decade.

www.bls.gov

 

[deleted903013]

I was watching some videos on abc recently about college graduates who came out with a lot of debt and no jobs and it really put things in perspective. Even my friends with marketable degrees will be lucky to make six figures mid career. I was looking at associate jobs in the rural part of the country i want to practice in when i graduate, and the starting salaries are more than my dad made at the end of his career. At the end of the day, we're all going to be employed making six figures, something many people would kill to do especially given how dentists work 40 hours a week or less. As long as you can keep your debt load low (ideally sub 250k) go which ever one you'll be happiest in.

 

[lwergod]

This is one thing I don’t fully agree on. I did some research and posted a few weeks ago the average scores for MD/DO and DDS/DMD enrollees. While MD schools are way more competitive than Dental (3.72 and 85 percentile on MCAT), DO schools seem to be around the ballpark of or even less competitive than dental (DO 3.53, 64 percentile MCAT, Dental 3.55, 77 percentile DAT). Meaning if you have what it takes to be a dentist, you have what it takes to get into a DO school.

I also think some students choose dentistry over medicine due to the nature of the job. I had friends with 3.8+ who actively steered themselves away from medicine because of the “burden.” Medicine is inherently more stressful, and if you work at a hospital, you have to be on call. Most DOs don’t end up specializing and end up working in hospitals and don’t really get the balance of life benefit that dentists get... you know, besides the lower pay and more debt bit.

if you exclude the 8 or so new schools that popped up in the last decade (most of which are Doctor of Osteopathic name institutions, I.e. LECOM, AT Still, Midwestern, etc), the avg oGPA is like 3.62

 

[allDAT]

What other doctoral level degree pays more than dentistry on average, besides MD/DO? None, according to BLS. But I can also see how having high debt might make a $160k average salary not feel very high. Regardless, Cold Front’s brother is rolling in it.

Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2021-31 decade.

www.bls.gov

Dentistry is a good gig, but it’s not necessarily that great as an employee. The hourly wages offered to dentists isn’t impressive and what we do is basically commission based. That’s the biggest downside when you evaluate the cost of education and the return in that investment in my opinion.

Ownership is a different ballgame.

 

[monkeykey]

I swear every other thread on here comes back around to debt.

 

[Cold Front]

I swear every other thread on here comes back around to debt.

It’s the only game in town. A decade ago, these forums had topics that predominantly discussed first patient out of school, first job, first owner-operator office, etc. Today, it’s all high student loans, the schools are getting a way with a tuition crime, is it all worth it?, depressed pre-dents, etc.

The jury is still out what the topics will be in 10 yrs.

 

[Splenda88]

I don't know how good or how bad dentistry is in term of the job market. I am a PGY3 and will be graduating in internal medicine residency June 2021... I am already getting hospitalist job offers from 230k-300k/yr (20-25k sing on bonus) + incentives bonus in some cases. 7 days on/off. There is no free lunch out there. Almost all of us have to work to make the $$$.

People who are ok being nocturnists can get 300k-360k/yr (7 days on/off) with 25k sign bonus + incentives (RVUs etc...). In fact, a friend of mine is making 48-49k/month pretax consistently (salary + bonus) as a nocturnist. As someone above said, almost all US dentists could have been physicians (at least DO) had they pursued medicine.

 

[Soleus715]

Wow this thread got hijacked hard into some interesting tangents. It's funnier considering that the op knew this would happen.

I'll chime in with what I've experienced. The higher numbers you read about are definitely from DSO's.

Around the midwestern suburb I'm in, there are local DSO listings of $700-850/day or 27-32% production (not collection) geared towards new grads with 20k-75k sign on bonus and all benefits included. They have mostly terrible reviews. Aspen had lower daily minimums or % collections (not production) offers vs local DSOs. There is not one Heartland office hiring around me to compare.

PP's are offering ~100-120k starting. The majority of listings state 1-2 yr min experience required and maybe AEGD/GPR can offset that.

I'm hoping to get a more accurate picture once I start narrowing down options and have a lawyer help negotiate the contract, but DSO listings are too good to be true and definitely tries to lure new grads in.

 

[Cold Front]

I'm hoping to get a more accurate picture once I start narrowing down options and have a lawyer help negotiate the contract, but DSO listings are too good to be true and definitely tries to lure new grads in.

Why need a lawyer to negotiate contract? There is not much to negotiate, and it’s usually your pay, bonus, benefits, PTOs and a non-compete clause. The rest are usually fillers and are never enforced. Aspen Dental contract is 2 pages. Also, $700-800/day pay is not bad for a suburb area offer. Rural pays more, urban areas less. These compensation levels are usual and widely known.

 

[2TH MVR]

Wow this thread got hijacked hard into some interesting tangents. It's funnier considering that the op knew this would happen.

I'll chime in with what I've experienced. The higher numbers you read about are definitely from DSO's.

Around the midwestern suburb I'm in, there are local DSO listings of $700-850/day or 27-32% production (not collection) geared towards new grads with 20k-75k sign on bonus and all benefits included. They have mostly terrible reviews. Aspen had lower daily minimums or % collections (not production) offers vs local DSOs. There is not one Heartland office hiring around me to compare.

PP's are offering ~100-120k starting. The majority of listings state 1-2 yr min experience required and maybe AEGD/GPR can offset that.

I'm hoping to get a more accurate picture once I start narrowing down options and have a lawyer help negotiate the contract, but DSO listings are too good to be true and definitely tries to lure new grads in.

Is it true that generally speaking .... DSO's offer more money than PP's? If so why would an in-debt grad even consider a private practice unless there was future partnership/ownership certainty?

 

[monkeykey]

I don't know how good or how bad dentistry is in term of the job market. I am a PGY3 and will be graduating in internal medicine residency June 2021... I am already getting hospitalist job offers from 230k-300k/yr (20-25k sing on bonus) + incentives bonus in some cases. 7 days on/off. There is no free lunch out there. Almost all of us have to work to make the $$$.

People who are ok being nocturnists can get 300k-360k/yr (7 days on/off) with 25k sign bonus + incentives (RVUs etc...). In fact, a friend of mine is making 48-49k/month pretax consistently (salary + bonus) as a nocturnist. As someone above said, almost all US dentists could have been physicians (at least DO) had they pursued medicine.

What’s considered a mid career salary for an IM? It seems they make about 2x as GP dentists fresh out the gate.

 

[Splenda88]

What’s considered a mid career salary for an IM? It seems they make about 2x as GP dentists fresh out the gate.

Experience does not mean much in medicine... You just have to be willing to work and find a job that is aligned with your goal... I know IM docs who are 250k/yr in their mid career but their job is pretty chill. Graduating residents' salary in my program in the past 2 years have been anywhere from 250k-500k+. The people who are making 400k+ work mostly in small cities/town.

Our program director told us one of the residents who graduated from our program is making 700k+ but that resident is a working machine... Working on average 22--12hrs shift nocturnist per month (standard is 12-14 for a salary ~ 300-350).

 

[Soleus715]

Why need a lawyer to negotiate contract? There is not much to negotiate, and it’s usually your pay, bonus, benefits, PTOs and a non-compete clause. The rest are usually fillers and are never enforced. Aspen Dental contract is 2 pages. Also, $700-800/day pay is not bad for a suburb area offer. Rural pays more, urban areas less. These compensation levels are usual and widely known.

I've read horror stories of contracts that screwed over new grads with things like min. guarantees changing to 27% collections 6 months in or ridiculous lab fee responsibilities, etc. I agree with you, as long as I'm reading the contract bad things should be obvious to catch. My professors help review contracts for all the previous grads so I might just do that.

Is it true that generally speaking .... DSO's offer more money than PP's? If so why would an in-debt grad even consider a private practice unless there was future partnership/ownership certainty?

Yes, this is why many new grads go into DSO. I have some friends around me who are choosing PP that offer buy-in opportunity and will take the lower starting for an ownership opportunity. Many have to enroll in IBR for a few years since they can't make the minimum payment (~$6000/mo) on a 10 year plan unless they spend every post-tax dollar on it.

I've been reading stories about new grads getting royally screwed in PP just as much as DSO. Since there is risk for both DSO/PP, I'm trying to work 6 days/week with DSO/PPO mix just in the earlier years to get a good feel for either option before I start my own.

 

[yappy]

I don't know how good or how bad dentistry is in term of the job market. I am a PGY3 and will be graduating in internal medicine residency June 2021... I am already getting hospitalist job offers from 230k-300k/yr (20-25k sing on bonus) + incentives bonus in some cases. 7 days on/off. There is no free lunch out there. Almost all of us have to work to make the $$$.

People who are ok being nocturnists can get 300k-360k/yr (7 days on/off) with 25k sign bonus + incentives (RVUs etc...). In fact, a friend of mine is making 48-49k/month pretax consistently (salary + bonus) as a nocturnist. As someone above said, almost all US dentists could have been physicians (at least DO) had they pursued medicine.

The employment options that you're describing are much better than those available to any general dentist. In fact, it rivals the employment options available to most dental specialists. Most dental residencies are as long, or longer than yours, and charge tuition. In terms of pay and stability, it is clear that medicine is superior to dentistry. I really want to emphasize this because there is a dogma among some dentists, other professionals, and lay people that dentists are highly paid for their services - we are NOT.

As you described I think most successful dental applicants could attend medical school (MD/DO); therefore, if someone is interested in both equally, it makes the most sense to pursue medicine and forego dentistry.

If you're only passionate about dentistry then it makes sense to pursue the field as long as you don't go into too much debt (<250k). This is because dentistry is not well paid. Due to the physical nature of the job you cannot realistically work 80 hrs per week to increase your income.

I graduated under good circumstances (<250k in debt) a few years ago and believe that I have above average skills as a general dentist. I work ~50-60 hrs per week as an associate but make less than a newly minted hospitalist. I'm happy with my job but I live like a school teacher. Despite my satisfaction and enjoyment doing dental treatment I must admit that my life would have been much easier had I pursued medicine.

 

[ToothJockey]

The jury is still out what the topics will be in 10 yrs.

In 10 years new grads will be asking where to apply for food stamps lol

 

[Advance]

Experience does not mean much in medicine... You just have to be willing to work and find a job that is aligned with your goal... I know IM docs who are 250k/yr in their mid career but their job is pretty chill. Graduating residents' salary in my program in the past 2 years have been anywhere from 250k-500k+. The people who are making 400k+ work mostly in small cities/town.

Our program director told us one of the residents who graduated from our program is making 700k+ but that resident is a working machine... Working on average 22--12hrs shift nocturnist per month (standard is 12-14 for a salary ~ 300-350).

Jeeze.... Do you know of any single IM residents willing to date a new dentist? Guy or girl. I’m not picky.

 

[Splenda88]

Jeeze.... Do you know of any single IM residents willing to date a new dentist? Guy or girl. I’m not picky.

Better to find an OMFS, they have both the $$$ and time.

 

[monkeykey]

How hard is it to find a job as a new grad associate as a GP? Do you think it is significantly harder to find a job as a new grad DDS vs MD? @Splenda88 @yappy

 

[mmc12]

The employment options that you're describing are much better than those available to any general dentist. In fact, it rivals the employment options available to most dental specialists. Most dental residencies are as long, or longer than yours, and charge tuition. In terms of pay and stability, it is clear that medicine is superior to dentistry. I really want to emphasize this because there is a dogma among some dentists, other professionals, and lay people that dentists are highly paid for their services - we are NOT.

As you described I think most successful dental applicants could attend medical school (MD/DO); therefore, if someone is interested in both equally, it makes the most sense to pursue medicine and forego dentistry.

If you're only passionate about dentistry then it makes sense to pursue the field as long as you don't go into too much debt (<250k). This is because dentistry is not well paid. Due to the physical nature of the job you cannot realistically work 80 hrs per week to increase your income.

I graduated under good circumstances (<250k in debt) a few years ago and believe that I have above average skills as a general dentist. I work ~50-60 hrs per week as an associate but make less than a newly minted hospitalist. I'm happy with my job but I live like a school teacher. Despite my satisfaction and enjoyment doing dental treatment I must admit that my life would have been much easier had I pursued medicine.

I don’t know how stressful being a hospitalist is, but it’s probably a lot less physically demanding than dentistry.

 

[monkeykey]

I don’t know how stressful being a hospitalist is, but it’s probably a lot less physically demanding than dentistry.

How bad is that part of dentistry? What would you compare it to for someone who’s never done dentistry?

 

[pubhealthdent]

How bad is that part of dentistry? What would you compare it to for someone who’s never done dentistry?

70-80% of dentists will develop neck or back problems at some point in their career. Also risk of developing arthritis in hand/wrist is high and hearing damage/loss

 

[Splenda88]

I don’t know how stressful being a hospitalist is, but it’s probably a lot less physically demanding than dentistry.

it can be pretty stressful if you are not in the right setting...

 

[charlestweed]

I don’t know how stressful being a hospitalist is, but it’s probably a lot less physically demanding than dentistry.

A couple of years ago, my mother in law was in a hospital and she was scheduled to be discharged from the hospital at 6pm. But the hospitalist doctor didn’t come in to see my mother in law to write the discharge summary until 10pm. The doctor looked exhausted when she arrived….she was clearly behind in her schedule. It’s a tough job….still busy at work at 10pm. If this doctor has kids, it must be very tough for them.

 

[P7898]

My brother is an MD. He loses people if he messes up. If I mess up, I have to fix the contact on my class 2, graft the site and place the implant another day, or send the crown back to the lab because the margins are short...... yah know what I mean?

All in all I think the majority of us went into the profession to use our hands, help people, establish relationships, and make a good living - and oh yah... do not have to worry about killing people and work decent hours. NOW, it is all about making smart choices. $150-$200k of debt yes a relatively smart choice to go be a dentist and live a very comfortable life. NOW, $400k+ of debt is never a smart choice on education. I am sorry but unless your starting salary is at least $400k to start, that debt will own your life and even then $400k pre-tax will not be as easy as you all think on 8% interest rate of $400k (factoring in grad plus loan rates).

Make smart choices personally and financially. Work hard. Be humble. Follow passion. You will live a very fulfilling and stress free life.

 

[ToothJockey]

that debt will own your life and even then $400k pre-tax will not be as easy as you all think

Yeah people never account for taxes for some reason. I bet there is a pre-dent somewhere in this country right now thinking:
Ok I'm looking at 500k debt. If my salary is 150k, it will only take me 3.5 years to pay off my loans, ez pz

Makes me wanna pack it in and go live on an island like Chuck Noland

 

[lwergod]

Experience does not mean much in medicine... You just have to be willing to work and find a job that is aligned with your goal... I know IM docs who are 250k/yr in their mid career but their job is pretty chill. Graduating residents' salary in my program in the past 2 years have been anywhere from 250k-500k+. The people who are making 400k+ work mostly in small cities/town.

Our program director told us one of the residents who graduate from our program is making 700k+ but that resident is a working machine... Working on average 22--12hrs shift nocturnist per month (standard is 12-14 for a salary ~ 300-350).

keep in mind a lot MD's on average work 25-50% more hrs/week than dentists.

Yeah people never account for taxes for some reason. I bet there is a pre-dent somewhere in this country right now thinking:
Ok I'm looking at 500k debt. If my salary is 150k, it will only take me 3.5 years to pay off my loans, ez pz

Makes me wanna pack it in and go live on an island like Chuck Noland

most pre-dents/meds prob think like this.

 

[Splenda88]

keep in mind a lot MD's on average work 25-50% more hrs/week than dentists.



most pre-dents/meds prob think like this.

Our job can be hard, but job security and the $$$ are not an issue for us. i still have a year left to finish residency, and it feels good when one of my co-residents will sign a contact next week for 270k + 50k sign bonus (yes they will hand him a 50k check one second after he signs the contract). Job security and $$$ is not an issue in medicine.

 

[LFA20]

keep in mind a lot MD's on average work 25-50% more hrs/week than dentists.

Doesn’t even matter if it’s hard to get a full time job in a desired area in the first place...

I’d rather work more and make more and live in major cities.

 

[2TH MVR]

My brother is an MD. He loses people if he messes up. If I mess up, I have to fix the contact on my class 2, graft the site and place the implant another day, or send the crown back to the lab because the margins are short...... yah know what I mean?

All in all I think the majority of us went into the profession to use our hands, help people, establish relationships, and make a good living - and oh yah... do not have to worry about killing people and work decent hours. NOW, it is all about making smart choices. $150-$200k of debt yes a relatively smart choice to go be a dentist and live a very comfortable life. NOW, $400k+ of debt is never a smart choice on education. I am sorry but unless your starting salary is at least $400k to start, that debt will own your life and even then $400k pre-tax will not be as easy as you all think on 8% interest rate of $400k (factoring in grad plus loan rates).

Make smart choices personally and financially. Work hard. Be humble. Follow passion. You will live a very fulfilling and stress free life.

Agreed. Ortho takes this ease of tx even further. I mess up .... well I just make a different adjustment at the next appt. I get behind. I just shorten the current patient's tx for that day. I am not bound to SET procedures for a given patient's appointment time. My only goal is to finish the patient's tx within the prescribed 18-24 months or whatever. A bracket falls off. Unless it's an anterior bracket .... I can fix it next time. There's no stress since I am not bound to any exact procedure that needs to be done in an exact amount of time. 3 new patients waiting to get started .... I just shorten the current patient's procedures. Patients do not know. As long as the ties are changed and they feel a little pressure .... well ... that's their appt.

I remember playing golf with a couple of my neighbors on a sunday. One is a pilot and another is an MD anesthesiologist. All three of us had to work the next day. I was happily drinking some cold beers during the round of golf. Of course ... neither the pilot or the MD could have a nice, cold, foamy, icy, thirst quenching BEER during their round. Oh how I pitied them as I ordered another beer.

 

[yappy]

Our job can be hard, but job security and the $$$ are not an issue for us. i still have a year left to finish residency, and it feels good when one of my co-residents will sign a contact next week for 270k + 50k sign bonus (yes they will hand him a 50k check one second after he signs the contract). Job security and $$$ is not an issue in medicine.

I think one fallacy in this whole is discussion is treating all of "medicine" as one group when the reality is many areas of medicine can be oversaturated in some areas of the country or some fields may even have tight job markets nationally. Pay varies greatly too, although it's better pay than dentistry. I'm just making the point that people go into medicine but will eventually be a specific type of doctor in a field with it's own ups and downs.

In dentistry it's not hard to find "any" job. However, it is difficult to find a good job. The best jobs you must create for yourself by purchasing a practice. Unfortunately this carries risk and it's not portable.

For me the physical part of dentistry is not too bad but I'm not a fragile person. I stretch, do cardio, lift weights, and eat right. Most importantly, I use proper illumination and magnification while working.

 

[charlestweed]

Agreed. Ortho takes this ease of tx even further. I mess up .... well I just make a different adjustment at the next appt. I get behind. I just shorten the current patient's tx for that day. I am not bound to SET procedures for a given patient's appointment time. My only goal is to finish the patient's tx within the prescribed 18-24 months or whatever. A bracket falls off. Unless it's an anterior bracket .... I can fix it next time. There's no stress since I am not bound to any exact procedure that needs to be done in an exact amount of time. 3 new patients waiting to get started .... I just shorten the current patient's procedures. Patients do not know. As long as the ties are changed and they feel a little pressure .... well ... that's their appt.

I remember playing golf with a couple of my neighbors on a sunday. One is a pilot and another is an MD anesthesiologist. All three of us had to work the next day. I was happily drinking some cold beers during the round of golf. Of course ... neither the pilot or the MD could have a nice, cold, foamy, icy, thirst quenching BEER during their round. Oh how I pitied them as I ordered another beer.

I've kept saying ortho is easy but many of my colleagues don't think so and tend to make it seems like it's a difficult job. Even at way below the national average fee that I currently charge my patients, I feel I am overpaid. It's still a lot more money than working for someone else. Because the job is so easy, I don't have any problem with traveling to work at 6 different offices and working on the weekends. I've never had any problem finding jobs because I am not picky person. Any job, where I get to sit at the desk most of the time, where I only need to talk to each patient for a few seconds, and where the assistants do most of the manual labors, is a good enough job for me.

 

[charlestweed]

I think one fallacy in this whole is discussion is treating all of "medicine" as one group when the reality is many areas of medicine can be oversaturated in some areas of the country or some fields may even have tight job markets nationally. Pay varies greatly too, although it's better pay than dentistry. I'm just making the point that people go into medicine but will eventually be a specific type of doctor in a field with it's own ups and downs.

In dentistry it's not hard to find "any" job. However, it is difficult to find a good job. The best jobs you must create for yourself by purchasing a practice. Unfortunately this carries risk and it's not portable.

For me the physical part of dentistry is not too bad but I'm not a fragile person. I stretch, do cardio, lift weights, and eat right. Most importantly, I use proper illumination and magnification while working.

It's not hard to find associate job in dentistry. Unlike medicine, most dental jobs don't require long term contract. If you don't like your current job, you can just quit and there are plenty of jobs on the job websites (indeed.com, craiglist.org etc) for you to choose from. In medicine, you get stuck with a long term contract, especially at the hospital that gives you a big signing bonus. My brother in law is also an internal medicine doctor. He had been stuck at a job that required him to work at least 10 hours a day + 1hr commute each way for 3 years. When the contract ended, he bought an existing office (for $80k) that saw mostly medicaid patients. His practice has done very well. During the Covid shutdown, the state gave him $17k for being a medicaid provider. He didn't need to apply....he woke up and saw $17k in his bank account.

You are right, it's not easy to find good associate job in dentistry. You will never be happy when you work for someone else. There are a lot of things you can't control like patient scheduling, assistants, supplies, and instruments. The owners try to cut cost and don't provide you the supplies/assistants that associate dentists want. The associate dentists always feel that their bosses are greedy by making them work too hard.

 

[Cold Front]

During the Covid shutdown, the state gave him $17k for being a medicaid provider. He didn't need to apply....he woke up and saw $17k in his bank account.

They are doing the same thing for dentists now, it’s just that the MD’s got first dips. I received 2% of my office revenue at each practice form the HHS Provider Relief program couple of weeks ago.

There is a lot of money out there from the CARES act. You just have to know where to look.

 

[cyro8]

You could go work for a FQHC or IHS and start at 150k+ w/ excellent bennies and Tort (federal malpractice) coverage. Then you apply for NHSC loan repayment and get an extra 25k a year tax free towards student loans. Just my 2¢

Not the ideal route for those looking at practice ownership, but it's a good salary with the possibility of making RVUs as well. I've talked to a few FQHC dentists who have pulled in 300k and get Loan Repayment.

 

[ISOrtho]

Some aren't. Some honestly try to keep costs low. Some are evil. Period.
You don't have to try to convince me about supply and demand, I know that. Where I fundamentally disagree with you is that you think people should take a passive role in this and just "not apply to those schools". I got news for you buddy, that's never going to happen. This problem won't be solved without active fighting against it. And naive people will never stop applying or going to these schools.

Tell me how this isn't evil?

View attachment 311255
That's tuition. Now for the fees.

View attachment 311257

That's as evil as can be and you won't be able to justify this to me based on the argument of "fReE mArKeT" either. The government, since it's inception, has interfered with the free market. From breaking up monopolies, to slapping on rules and regulations.. No amount of mental gymnastics can defend this.

You quoted an international program fee. They usually charge double the charge of traditional/domestic students. Wrong source to use for what you are trying to argue.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

I remember playing golf with a couple of my neighbors on a sunday. One is a pilot and another is an MD anesthesiologist. All three of us had to work the next day. I was happily drinking some cold beers during the round of golf. Of course ... neither the pilot or the MD could have a nice, cold, foamy, icy, thirst quenching BEER during their round. Oh how I pitied them as I ordered another beer.

I bet the MD and the pilot were glad you don't handle the dental drill or OS scalpel.

 

[New_Vegas]

You quoted an international program fee. They usually charge double the charge of traditional/domestic students. Wrong source to use for what you are trying to argue.

No, it's actually NOT an international fee. Directly from their website, check it out yourself: Tuition and Fees < Academic Catalog | University of the Pacific

Also, it's up to 139,000 now. Unbelievable.

 

[monkeykey]

No, it's actually NOT an international fee. Directly from their website, check it out yourself: Tuition and Fees < Academic Catalog | University of the Pacific

Also, it's up to 139,000 now. Unbelievable.

"Give us all of your money! Everything you have!"

 

[ISOrtho]

No, it's actually NOT an international fee. Directly from their website, check it out yourself: Tuition and Fees < Academic Catalog | University of the Pacific

Also, it's up to 139,000 now. Unbelievable.

You aren’t getting it. You seem to argue for the sake of arguing. Read what I previously said.
The one you quoted previously states “IDP” international fee. IDP stands for international dental program. So I was strictly clarifying that link itself. As I mentioned before. You used the wrong source of what you are trying to argue. Typically nation wide international dental programs are almost doubled the domestic tuition.

 

[New_Vegas]

You aren’t getting it. You seem to argue for the sake of arguing. Read what I previously said.
The one you quoted previously states “IDP” international fee. IDP stands for international dental program. So I was strictly clarifying that link itself. As I mentioned before. You used the wrong source of what you are trying to argue. Typically nation wide international dental programs are almost doubled the domestic tuition.

Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.
Let me quote their website.

" Tuition for the 2020-2021 academic year for the DDS, IDS, Ortho and Endo programs is $117,020. ".

Now let me spell it out for you.
Tuition for DDS program = 117,020
Tuition for IDS program = 117,020
Tuition for Ortho program = 117,020
Tuition for Endo program = 117,020.

Then of course it costs more when you add on the fees.

 

[PerioDont]

Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.
Let me quote their website.

" Tuition for the 2020-2021 academic year for the DDS, IDS, Ortho and Endo programs is $117,020. ".

Now let me spell it out for you.
Tuition for DDS program = 117,020
Tuition for IDS program = 117,020
Tuition for Ortho program = 117,020
Tuition for Endo program = 117,020.

Then of course it costs more when you add on the fees.

This is insanity. when I was applying to d school a few years back I saw UOP's tuition as 100k so I never even applied. I genuinely hope that we get to the point where no one applies to these schools. It is criminal and a huge uphill battle to pay off 500k if ever done

 

[ISOrtho]

And Apparently you’re mad at the world.
Haha disliking a comment and trying to throw shade. So courageous. You must be fun in social gatherings.
If I have to be specific to get through your stubborn wall, the second link is an IDP tuition fee breakdown. Plus you are posting one of a handful of schools that charge high tuition fees in an attempt to validate your generalized argument.
Like I said, nation wide, international students tend to pay double the amount of any domestic schools and there is no logic or valid reason for them to do so. But they do and, from those I know, they are happy with their investments. As previous poster said, part of the problem is the loans being abused as to why schools can charge what they charge. But keep complaining on a forum about it, that should sure tell them.

Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.
Let me quote their website.

" Tuition for the 2020-2021 academic year for the DDS, IDS, Ortho and Endo programs is $117,020. ".

Now let me spell it out for you.
Tuition for DDS program = 117,020
Tuition for IDS program = 117,020
Tuition for Ortho program = 117,020
Tuition for Endo program = 117,020.

Then of course it costs more when you add on the fees.

 

[New_Vegas]

And Apparently you’re mad at the world.
Haha disliking a comment and trying to throw shade. So courageous. You must be fun in social gatherings.
If I have to be specific to get through your stubborn wall, the second link is an IDP tuition fee breakdown. Plus you are posting one of a handful of schools that charge high tuition fees in an attempt to validate your generalized argument.
Like I said, nation wide, international students tend to pay double the amount of any domestic schools and there is no logic or valid reason for them to do so. But they do and, from those I know, they are happy with their investments. As previous poster said, part of the problem is the loans being abused as to why schools can charge what they charge. But keep complaining on a forum about it, that should sure tell them.

I actually am pretty fun at social gatherings. Because when I'm at social gatherings I don't often talk to people who are wrong about everything.

 

[bracketbuster68]

I actually am pretty fun at social gatherings. Because when I'm at social gatherings I don't often talk to people who are wrong about everything.

 

[SoftGel]

You guys could do this over pm... Or just exchange cell numbers

 

[BMEndo]

Like I said, nation wide, international students tend to pay double the amount of any domestic schools and there is no logic or valid reason for them to do so.

International students pay more because tuition is not subsidized for them like it is for domestic students.