How about starting to talk about our 2017 rank lists?

[TeslaCoil]

I guess the best way to see if this perceived weakness will impact you if you "deign" to attend one of these programs who accept non-US MD's is to look at their fellowship match list. If they match their residents into top teir fellowships, then apparently the people for whom it matters do not share this sense of "stigma" associated with whom they recruit that you may perceive.

Even a program like MCG, that is recovering from a serious restructuring, still manages to place pretty darn well...

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[misteratoz]

Im calling the actual stigma fallacious. Which means that anybody who uses it to make sound decisions is also exposing themselves to bad reasoning. Objectively speaking I dont see anybody from any of these programs having trouble finding good jobs. Isnt that what matters after all?

Oh and as for your last comment about selecting from a more prestigious applicant pool- thats exactly why there are some IMG's at top programs. Are you starting to understand? Those IMG's are top percentile of the same pool, what dont you get?

That's faulty reasoning. It's not up to me whether or not the reasoning behind the stigma is good. It's up to me to realize that it exists and is a measure of exclusivity, for better or worse. If PD's treat it like it's real, I assume it is. The day half of MGH's residents are DO's is the day I'll admit that the stigma is gone. Until then, any posturing regarding the validity of the stigma is more or less useless.

Your latter point makes no sense either. Those top IMG/FMG candidates are the very best in that pool with higher stats on average than their MD and DO colleagues. It took more for them to get to the same point. Therefore while they can make it, it's harder for them and stigma is real friend.

I do agree with your broader point though. A residency is good if it gets you a good job. But really, that's never enough is it? We always want it all. We want the nicer location, the better hours, stronger teaching, better fellowship matches, etc. You're probably right in that this doesn't matter in the long run, but I, like most, live with a degree of tunnel vision and appreciate the little perks along the way.

 

[TeslaCoil]

That's faulty reasoning. It's not up to me whether or not the reasoning behind the stigma is good. It's up to me to realize that it exists and is a measure of exclusivity, for better or worse. If PD's treat it like it's real, I assume it is. The day half of MGH's residents are DO's is the day I'll admit that the stigma is gone. Until then, any posturing regarding the validity of the stigma is more or less useless.

Your latter point makes no sense either. Those top IMG/FMG candidates are the very best in that pool with higher stats on average than their MD and DO colleagues. It took more for them to get to the same point. Therefore while they can make it, it's harder for them and stigma is real friend.

I do agree with your broader point though. A residency is good if it gets you a good job. But really, that's never enough is it? We always want it all. We want the nicer location, the better hours, stronger teaching, better fellowship matches, etc. You're probably right in that this doesn't matter in the long run, but I, like most, live with a degree of tunnel vision and appreciate the little perks along the way.

Never said the stigma wasn't real. I know its real, because I lived through it. What I said was that the way you're using it to make decisions about how good a program is, is nonsensical. I find your calling my reasoning faulty laughable really. What you're saying is the equivalent of something like, "people think that people who live in Arkansas are of lower IQ, and I'm going to use this stigma to make decisions about people from Arkansas, simply because the stigma exists. Whether or not the stigma is true or not, doesnt matter."

But I'm glad that you're admitting that you have tunnel vision. We can agree on one point at least. Again, supporting the fact that the only reasoning here that is faulty is yours. In reality, there is no way to rank a program entirely objectively. While I interviewed at a ton of top tier programs, I ranked the one that was close to home first, and got it, and I was much happier than if I had matched to someplace like MGH. Ranking a program based on how many DOs and IMGs they have is ridiculous, but I digress.

 

[Dam272]

Will it be a stupid decision to rank a community program higher than a univ program just for the location?

 

[bashwell]

Yeah, no. Getting into a Canadian medical school is significantly harder than getting into an "average" MD school in the US. The stats speak for themselves. Most people here apply to US medical schools as back-ups in case they can't get into Canadian schools, unless we're talking Harvard, Stanford, etc. As for Australia, that seems like a lie (in regards to admission). I find it difficult to believe anyone would want to pay $300k to go to Australia for education when my total medical education is going to cost me $55-60k. I obviously cannot comment on the quality of education there, but in Canada, it's fairly standardised (although everyone likes to joke about U of S not being as good as rest of the country).

Sorry for helping derail this thread. Continue on.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Canadian med schools. But what I said wasn't a statement saying anything bad about Canadian med schools but more of a question. Anyway I'm guessing you're Canadian or at least feel offended on behalf of Canadians, hence what you said. Just relax, I don't have any problem with Canadians or Canadian med schools.

Also I'm a dual American and Australian citizen. If you're an Australian citizen in an Australian med school your total cost is not $300k! My debt after graduation was about $50k total. You must be talking about Canadians or international students attending Australian med schools. I've heard international students do pay a lot but I don't know exact numbers, but I'm sure you can find out pretty easily by checking a med school's website.

I can't compare the quality of med schools because I've never attended US or Canadian med schools or have enough familiarity with curricula etc to say. Maybe you can talk to someone in the following thread if you really want to compare and maybe they'll have more info for you than I would:

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/how-solid-are-australian-programs.1215408

 

[abolt18]

Returning to the main topic.

I'm from the mountain west. Med school in the Midwest. My end goal is to end up practicing in the West/Mountain West. I've got a wife and kids so that affects my decisions a lot. Always open to thoughts, input, and opinions. I'll honestly be stoked to end up in any of my top 6. Still happy about the rest. One program I didn't like that I'm not ranking.

1. WashU
Pro: I live in STL already. Did a rotation here and loved it. Really just excellent program, happy residents, stellar in-house moonlighting opportunities.
Con: none for me.

2. U of Michigan
Pro: Loved nearly everything about the program. Ann Arbor seems nice. Huge alumni network.
Con: so fetching cold

3. Loma Linda
Pro: for me the location is my #1. More rock climbing than I know what to do with, can hit the ski slopes and the beach on the same day. Disneyland (for my kids) and sunshine. Have extended family in the area, and much closer to immediate family.
Con: higher COL. A good program but seems like not as strong of reputation as others.

4. CCF
Pro: Great surgical variety and all the hearts (I'm interested in cardiac). I like the structure of the rotations.
Con: Cleveland seems nice enough, but not great. No in-house trauma. Seems like CCF as a whole is empowering advanced nurses.

5. U of Utah
Pro: Closest to home. Best local job prospects. Utah is gorgeous (outdoors, climbing, camping, mountain biking, mountaineering). Awesome ultrasound and echo training (significant portion of residents are taking and passing the advanced exam for TEE every year).
Con: mostly advanced positions. just didn't get "the vibe" from most of the residents.

UNMC
U of Iowa
San Antonio
Arizona
Oklahoma

 

[misteratoz]

Returning to the main topic.

I'm from the mountain west. Med school in the Midwest. My end goal is to end up practicing in the West/Mountain West. I've got a wife and kids so that affects my decisions a lot. Always open to thoughts, input, and opinions. I'll honestly be stoked to end up in any of my top 6. Still happy about the rest. One program I didn't like that I'm not ranking.

1. WashU
Pro: I live in STL already. Did a rotation here and loved it. Really just excellent program, happy residents, stellar in-house moonlighting opportunities.
Con: none for me.

2. U of Michigan
Pro: Loved nearly everything about the program. Ann Arbor seems nice. Huge alumni network.
Con: so fetching cold

3. Loma Linda
Pro: for me the location is my #1. More rock climbing than I know what to do with, can hit the ski slopes and the beach on the same day. Disneyland (for my kids) and sunshine. Have extended family in the area, and much closer to immediate family.
Con: higher COL. A good program but seems like not as strong of reputation as others.

4. CCF
Pro: Great surgical variety and all the hearts (I'm interested in cardiac). I like the structure of the rotations.
Con: Cleveland seems nice enough, but not great. No in-house trauma. Seems like CCF as a whole is empowering advanced nurses.

5. U of Utah
Pro: Closest to home. Best local job prospects. Utah is gorgeous (outdoors, climbing, camping, mountain biking, mountaineering). Awesome ultrasound and echo training (significant portion of residents are taking and passing the advanced exam for TEE every year).
Con: mostly advanced positions. just didn't get "the vibe" from most of the residents.

UNMC
U of Iowa
San Antonio
Arizona
Oklahoma

Definitely like your top 2. Can't go wrong at either of those. I think Washu has a reputation for overworking their residents which may or may not be true. CCF is a great program too. I like your list!

 

[gaspasser127]

I'll bite, too.

My top 5 in order:

Duke
- Pros: Close to home, excellent research, great faculty/mentors, schedule during anesthesia years is for the most part great
- Cons: Intern year is among the worst for categorical anesthesia programs from what I hear, peds consists mostly of syndromic/complex cases.

UNC:
- Pros: Close to home, chill intern year, great schedule, average clinical training it seems, good moonlighting opps, VERY supportive faculty and leadership.
- Cons: Peds and cardiac experience seems to be a little weak.

Hopkins:
- Pros: Excellent research, great faculty/mentors, schedule is not bad, very laid back residents, fellowship options are top notch, no shortage of any cases (like peds, cards, etc). Best mix of "big name" and work-life balance.
- Cons: Further from home than I'd like, no moonlighting at all, advanced spots only

Emory:
- Pros: Relatively close to home, good research, good volume of cases
- Cons: Advanced spots only, question about workload - residents felt they worked a lot. On average one free weekend a month. Limited moonlighting.

MGH:
- Pros: Great research, great clinical volume, affiliated with Harvard (and all the research $ associated with it), largest endowment of any department in the country, great faculty and mentors.
- Cons: Workaholic program, mostly advanced spots

If anyone has additional info about any of these programs I would love to hear it!

 

[mmag]

Is the presence or lack there of a nurse anesthesia program a consideration at all for you guys? Undoubtedly everyone would down rank a program where resident education could be sacrificed for the sake of giving cases to SRNA's, but what about on a conscientious objector level?
As you know almost all nurse anesthesia programs require students to take classes on advocacy for nursing practice which is reflected in more legislation favoring independent CRNA over the years.

No CRNA school
MGH, BWH, Michigan, Utah, Oklahoma,
New Mexico, UVA, NYU, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UChicago, Wisconsin

+CRNA school
Hopkins "We are now proudly serving as a clinical site for several schools of Nurse Anesthesia"
Emory, UNC, Duke, WashU, Loma Linda, USC, CCF, Iowa
Arizona, UPenn, Mayo, Yale, Rush, Albany, Balyor,
Georgetown, MUSC, Alabama, Kansas, Pittsburgh, Wake Forest

 

[La_Croix]

I ranked my programs based on "gut feeling" during the interview day, interactions with residents, and location. To be honest, clinical and academic considerations among many of the programs were more or less similar, and tiny differences didn't really make or break a program for me.

For example, it isn't a deal breaker for me whether a program had a huge research foundation or not, but if 75% of the residents are married with multiple kids and a large part of the dinner was spent talking about daycare, golfing, or traveling to a larger city to have fun -- that was a big negative for me. However, this may be a huge positive for another applicant.

 

[26B]

What is everyone's opinion of Northwestern's ACGME warning as far as rank lists go?

 

[partydoc]

What is everyone's opinion of Northwestern's ACGME warning as far as rank lists go?

i heard they fixed things up

 

[Psai]

I'll bite, too.

My top 5 in order:

Duke
- Pros: Close to home, excellent research, great faculty/mentors, schedule during anesthesia years is for the most part great
- Cons: Intern year is among the worst for categorical anesthesia programs from what I hear, peds consists mostly of syndromic/complex cases.

UNC:
- Pros: Close to home, chill intern year, great schedule, average clinical training it seems, good moonlighting opps, VERY supportive faculty and leadership.
- Cons: Peds and cardiac experience seems to be a little weak.

Hopkins:
- Pros: Excellent research, great faculty/mentors, schedule is not bad, very laid back residents, fellowship options are top notch, no shortage of any cases (like peds, cards, etc). Best mix of "big name" and work-life balance.
- Cons: Further from home than I'd like, no moonlighting at all, advanced spots only

Emory:
- Pros: Relatively close to home, good research, good volume of cases
- Cons: Advanced spots only, question about workload - residents felt they worked a lot. On average one free weekend a month. Limited moonlighting.

MGH:
- Pros: Great research, great clinical volume, affiliated with Harvard (and all the research $ associated with it), largest endowment of any department in the country, great faculty and mentors.
- Cons: Workaholic program, mostly advanced spots

If anyone has additional info about any of these programs I would love to hear it!

Emory didn't fill last year.

 

[New World... Symphony!]

So I'm really stuck on my top 3. I could use some help.
Duke/Vandy/Pitt

-Duke is kind of the leader in perioperative medicine/ERAS, and that's what I'm really interested in. Plus the PD of their Perioperative Medicine Fellowship is a guy I've worked with before. Plus, its Duke, but it has a ****ty intern year. I have a lot of friends down there because its where I did undergrad, and the area is kind of experiencing a renaissance.
-Pitt has by far and away the best intern year, and it really has no major weaknesses. They don't have a perioperative medicine fellowship yet, but their regional (another area of interest) is on point, and their doing a lot of great stuff in preoperative optimization. I mean, they have interns doing their paravertebrals. I live in CLE now, and I would like to have a little bit better weather than Pittsburgh if possible. And god I hate Steeler fans.
- Vandy is also doing a lot of great stuff in perioperative medicine, but again, I think they're kind of following Duke's lead. The department doesn't have quite as much $$$ as the other two from what I've seen, but I think Nashville is probably the coolest of Durham/Nashville/Pittsburgh, though I like all those places for different reasons.

After that it gets easier:

4. Stanford
5. Mayo
6. Northwestern
7. Mt Sinai
8. MUSC
9 CCF
10 U Chicago
11. UAB
12. Case UH
13. Columbia
14 Wake Forest
15 Wisconsin
16 GW
17. Case Metro

Any help or comments would be greatly appreciated!

 

[reconnected]

.

 

[Bru]

-Duke is kind of the leader in perioperative medicine/ERAS, and that's what I'm really interested in. Plus the PD of their Perioperative Medicine Fellowship is a guy I've worked with before. Plus, its Duke, but it has a ****ty intern year. I have a lot of friends down there because its where I did undergrad, and the area is kind of experiencing a renaissance.
-Pitt has by far and away the best intern year, and it really has no major weaknesses. They don't have a perioperative medicine fellowship yet, but their regional (another area of interest) is on point, and their doing a lot of great stuff in preoperative optimization. I mean, they have interns doing their paravertebrals. I live in CLE now, and I would like to have a little bit better weather than Pittsburgh if possible. And god I hate Steeler fans.
- Vandy is also doing a lot of great stuff in perioperative medicine, but again, I think they're kind of following Duke's lead. The department doesn't have quite as much $$$ as the other two from what I've seen, but I think Nashville is probably the coolest of Durham/Nashville/Pittsburgh, though I like all those places for different reasons.

Disclaimer: Your top 3 are pretty close to my top 3 but I think my comments are objective.

I am on the fence about Pitt for similar reasons. One other ding in my mind was the 5/6 hospitals you have to rotate through as compared to Duke/Vandy where all hospitals are much closer and less. But I totally loved their intern year as well.

I think the characterization of Vandy as a Duke follower is not entirely accurate. Their informatics/tech work is on point. I also thought they were pretty well funded but I don't know their finances. I think I liked Nashville the most of all three cities.

Tough call to be sure and I wish you luck!

 

[anesUT]

Fairly certain this isn't changing.

1. UT Southwestern
2. U. of Michigan
3. UAB
4. UVA
5. NYU
6. Loma Linda
7. U. of Kentucky
8. Indiana U
9. UTMB
10. SUNY Downstate
11. Loyola
12. Case UH
13. Case Metro

UTSW seemed like the most well-rounded program by a significant margin out of all the places I interviewed at with the only real downside being the heavy call burden as a CA1. Would still appreciate feedback/comments

You'll like it here, and if you're worried about the call burden, it's really not that bad (i.e., 5-6 q4 call months as it is), and q4 call is already being taken away from certain rotations which will be nice for you guys. Parkland call is also where you'll get a ton of independence and experience the most growth in your skillset and confidence--you get thrown into some of the bigger cases even as a CA-1. The categorical intern year is honestly a breeze and operates more like a transitional year, and vapor camp is an overall awesome experience. Some of the attendings who trained here said we're pretty spoiled now, and I kind of agree. I've been very happy here. PM me if you have any questions.

 

[snorlax88]

Still pretty conflicted and this list may change quite a bit, but this is what I'm thinking as of now. I'm looking for a place with strong research and good fellowship programs in most if not all departments (not sure what I want to subspecialize in). In the future, I'd like to go into academics. I'm single and would like to stick to a large-ish city where I'm not the only person in the program without a ring on their finger. Here goes nothing...

My favorites (in no particular order):
Stanford (pros: great people, great research, free standing pedi hospital, great ICU experience, seems like the program really cares about their residents, west coast vibe, no CRNA school, good mix of residents going into academics/fellowship training/PP cons: incredibly expensive, no moonlighting, residents did not seem thrilled about work hours, categorical intern year heavy on medicine)
MGH (pros: the name, great research, creates leaders in the field, Boston is awesome, new PD is motivated to make positive changes, TY year at NWH for categorical, no CRNA school cons: at times this place seemed a little cut-throat, expensive, no moonlighting, little to no trauma)
Brigham (pros: the name, strong research, Boston, had a great time at interview dinner, claims to be "Harvard with a heart", moonlighting available cons: expensive, no livers, no trauma, categorical intern year sounds rough)

Places I'd love to match, but aren't as high on my list (in no particular order):
Vanderbilt (pros: periop, Nashville seems cool and decently affordable, lots of fellowship options cons: PD and I didn't really click, place seems overrun by CRNAs, married people abound, no public transportation, it's in the south)
Mt. Sinai (pros: awesome people, love the PD, ample moonlighting and research, subsidized housing, finally some single people cons: NYC ain't cheap, weaker peds, old facilities, concerned it would hinder finding a job outside of the NE)
UPMC (pros: happy residents, better lifestyle than most, moonlighting, Pittsburgh is apparently cool now? cons: lack of diversity in faculty I met, lots of different locations, weaker in the area of research I'm interested in, CRNAs/SRNAs everywhere)
Duke (pros: strong in all areas, PD was great, research, affordable, moonlighting cons: intern year, residents at dinner seemed really tired and some were difficult to hold a conversation with, at the lunch a bunch of residents sat in a group rather than interact with interviewees)
UNC (pros: investing a lot in resident education, affordable, really enjoyed my interviews with faculty, moonlighting cons: may be a little too laid back for me, weaker research, Chapel Hill not the best for being single, relationship between dept and CRNAs seemed to be a little rocky)

Places I'd be happy matching at, but I have some concerns about (in no particular order):
UCSF (pros: great name, awesome city, good exposure to all areas of anesthesia, great research, few CRNAs cons: weird interviews, absurdly expensive...I'm not trying to have roommates in residency, lots of hospitals)
UAB (pros: loved the program on paper, very supportive of additional education and research while in residency, ridiculous amounts of moonlighting, affordable cons: residents not diverse...75% married white guys, it's in Alabama, many go PP)
WashU (pros: great research, strong in all areas, moonlighting, affordable cons: weird PD interview, St. Louis is somewhat sketchy, some residents voiced concerns about work hours)
UVA (pros: great vibe from program leadership, Charlottesville, moonlighting, pedi hearts rotation, great resident education cons: most go into PP, low OB #'s, weaker research, everyone is married, Charlottesville isn't the easiest place to be single)
BID (pros: Harvard affiliation, Boston, great PD, good access to research cons: weak exposure to transplants, didn't click as well with residents here as I did at BWH and MGH, expensive, feel like I'd get better training elsewhere)
Miami (pros: Miami, good trauma and transplant exposure, moonlighting cons: not as academic as I would like, residents complained about working hours, expensive, not a research powerhouse)

I'm grateful for the opportunity I've had to interview at all of these incredible places. My fellow interviewees have incredible education and research backgrounds and have accomplished far more than I have in medical school. My favorite programs are all extremely competitive so I'm prepared to drop lower on my rank list (and I'm okay with that). I could see myself getting excellent training at almost all of the programs above.

 

[Psai]

Still pretty conflicted and this list may change quite a bit, but this is what I'm thinking as of now. I'm looking for a place with strong research and good fellowship programs in most if not all departments (not sure what I want to subspecialize in). In the future, I'd like to go into academics in the southwest. I'm single and would like to stick to a large-ish city where I'm not the only person in the program without a ring on their finger. Given the political climate in the south and a strong desire for a change of scenery, I'm think I'm ready to get out for a little while. Here goes nothing...

1. Stanford
Pros: Great people, great research, free standing pedi hospital, great ICU experience, seems like the program really cares about their residents and resident wellness, loved that west coast vibe, Palo Alto is beautiful and not as cramped-feeling as San Francisco, short drive to the beach and the mountains, no CRNA school, good mix of resident going into academics/fellowship training/PP
Cons: Incredibly expensive, no moonlighting, residents did not seem thrilled about work hours (some talked about wishing they went to a program with moonlighting and better hours), categorical intern year sounds rough

2/3. MGH
Pros: the name doesn't hurt, great research, creates leaders in the field and seems like has the resources to get you wherever you want to be, Boston is awesome, new PD is motivated to make positive changes to the program (with old PD still around), TY year at NWH for categorical residents, exposure to everything (except trauma), no CRNA school
Cons: I don't feel like I need coddling, but at times this place seemed a little cut-throat, Boston is expensive, no moonlighting, hours (I expect this to be the case with most top programs)

2/3. Brigham
Pros: the name doesn't hurt, strong research, it's in Boston, had a great time at interview dinner, claims to be "Harvard with a heart" (though BID also says this), no CRNA school
Cons: Boston is expensive, no moonlighting, no livers, slightly weaker peds experience than MGH, categorical intern year sounds rough

After those three it gets a little murky.

Places I'd love to match, but aren't as high on my list (in no particular order):
Vanderbilt (pros: periop, Nashville seems cool and decently affordable, lots of fellowship options cons: PD and I didn't really click, place seems overrun by CRNAs, married people abound, no public transportation, it's in the south, I have no friends there)
Mt. Sinai (pros: awesome people, love the PD, ample moonlighting and research, subsidized housing, finally some single people cons: NYC ain't cheap, weaker peds, old facilities, concerned it would hinder finding a job outside of the NE)
UPMC (pros: happy residents, better lifestyle than most, moonlighting, Pittsburgh is apparently cool now? cons: lack of diversity in faculty I met, lots of different locations, weaker in the area of research I'm interested in, CRNAs/SRNAs everywhere)
Duke (pros: strong in all areas, PD was great, research, affordable, moonlighting cons: intern year, residents at dinner seemed really tired and some were difficult to hold a conversation with, at the lunch a bunch of residents sat in a group rather than interact with interviewees)
UNC (pros: investing a lot in resident education, affordable, really enjoyed my interviews with faculty, moonlighting cons: may be a little too laid back for me, weaker research, Chapel Hill not the best for being single, relationship between dept and CRNAs seemed to be a little rocky)

Places I'd be happy matching at, but I have some concerns about (in no particular order):
UCSF (pros: great name, awesome city, good exposure to all areas of anesthesia, great research, few CRNAs cons: weird interviews, absurdly expensive...I'm not trying to have roommates in residency, lots of hospitals)
UAB (pros: loved the program on paper, very supportive of additional education and research while in residency, ridiculous amounts of moonlighting, affordable cons: residents not diverse...75% married white guys, it's in Alabama, many go PP)
WashU (pros: great research, strong in all areas, moonlighting, affordable cons: weird PD interview, St. Louis is somewhat sketchy, some residents voiced concerns about work hours)
UVA (pros: great vibe from program leadership, Charlottesville, moonlighting, pedi hearts rotation, great resident education cons: most go into PP, low OB #'s, weaker research, everyone is married, Charlottesville isn't the easiest place to be single)
BID (pros: Harvard affiliation, Boston, great PD, good access to research cons: weak exposure to transplants, didn't click as well with residents here as I did at BWH and MGH, expensive, feel like I'd get better training elsewhere)
Miami (pros: Miami, good trauma and transplant exposure, moonlighting cons: not as academic as I would like, residents complained about working hours, expensive, not a research powerhouse)

Meh (in no particular order):
Penn
Baylor
Columbia

I'm grateful for the opportunity I've had to interview at all of these incredible places. My fellow interviewees have incredible education and research backgrounds and have accomplished far more than I have in medical school. My favorite programs are all extremely competitive so I'm prepared to drop lower on my rank list (and I'm okay with that). I could see myself getting excellent training at almost all of the programs above. I'd appreciate any words of wisdom as I try to figure out my rank list!

Nice list but not sure how you're getting periop as a plus.

Also, I would worry about having to compete with nurses for cases at the programs where there were a ton of them. It shouldn't even be an issue but apparently it is at some programs.

 

[sunealoneal]

I'd love to hear about places more... accessible to people with middle of the bell curve Step scores.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[New World... Symphony!]

Nice list but not sure how you're getting periop as a plus.

Also, I would worry about having to compete with nurses for cases at the programs where there were a ton of them. It shouldn't even be an issue but apparently it is at some programs.

I'm not sure how periop is anything but a plus? Do you want to go to a program that teaches you how to be an in-room anesthesia provider, or how to be a perioperative physician. Because, the days of physician anesthesiologists being the former are numbered. If you don't know how to be a perioperative physician, you won't have a job. In the same vein, I really don't see how having S/CRNAs is a bad thing- they take the easy lap appy from you so you aren't stuck doing that kind of case as a CA3. The presence of nurses means you aren't the primary workforce, so you are able to focus on education.

 

[psychbender]

I'm not sure how periop is anything but a plus? Do you want to go to a program that teaches you how to be an in-room anesthesia provider, or how to be a perioperative physician. Because, the days of physician anesthesiologists being the former are numbered. If you don't know how to be a perioperative physician, you won't have a job. In the same vein, I really don't see how having S/CRNAs is a bad thing- they take the easy lap appy from you so you aren't stuck doing that kind of case as a CA3. The presence of nurses means you aren't the primary workforce, so you are able to focus on education.

Periop means different things at different places. Are you spending extra months in the preop clinic, rounding with an acute pain service, doing more ICU rotations, or getting more echo training? Residency is a set amount of time. An extra month in the preop clinic is an extra month that you're not doing sick hearts, transplant, sick peds, getting super slick with regional or neuraxial blocks, etc. I, and many others here, view the extra clinical training as far superior to more time spent following protocols for preop workup for elective cases.

As for doing ASA1 appys as a CA3, this really shouldn't be happening anywhere, regardless of whether or not there are CRNAs/SRNAs, unless the CA3 asked for it. I requested a few days of basic hernias/appys/choles as a senior, as I had just come off about six months of outside rotations in hearts, regional, and OB, and wanted a couple simple days where I could tell my attending go to his office and not bother me. Otherwise, that's what CA1s and categorical interns are for (or *gasp* staff doing their own cases).

 

[misteratoz]

How do you guys reconcile the idea that prestige doesn't matter when the chairs of most academic programs are from top 20 schools?

 

[partydoc]

How do you guys reconcile the idea that prestige doesn't matter when the chairs of most academic programs are from top 20 schools?

It matters if you want to be chair someday.

 

[Temeraire]

UCSF (pros: great name, awesome city, good exposure to all areas of anesthesia, great research, few CRNAs cons: weird interviews, absurdly expensive...I'm not trying to have roommates in residency, lots of hospitals)

You know, when I interviewed at UCSF last year, I thought I was just having an off day or bad luck because the PD was asking me weird questions, but after talking with multiple people about their experiences interviewing at UCSF, it turns out the weird interview thing happens to everyone. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[psychbender]

How do you guys reconcile the idea that prestige doesn't matter when the chairs of most academic programs are from top 20 schools?

You are confusing correlation with causation. There is a large element of self-selection going on in the ranks of academia.

 

[AdmiralChz]

Also, I would worry about having to compete with nurses for cases at the programs where there were a ton of them. It shouldn't even be an issue but apparently it is at some programs.

Yeah I've heard this is an issue some places - we have a ton (~ 100) anesthetizing locations on most days so we have to use nurses (and a lot of them) to meet our obligations. The difference is that here none of the AAs/CRNAs want nothing to do with larger cases and are more than happy to do the more basic stuff - they typically stay far, far away from subspecialty rooms (also makes it tough for you to get relieved sometime in the late afternoon).

We don't have an SRNA program though, so perhaps it's different at programs with one? I've had a few applicants ask me this year and I think it's absolutely a fair question such programs.

 

[6svette]

Still pretty conflicted and this list may change quite a bit, but this is what I'm thinking as of now. I'm looking for a place with strong research and good fellowship programs in most if not all departments (not sure what I want to subspecialize in). In the future, I'd like to go into academics in the southwest. I'm single and would like to stick to a large-ish city where I'm not the only person in the program without a ring on their finger. Given the political climate in the south and a strong desire for a change of scenery, I'm think I'm ready to get out for a little while. Here goes nothing...

1. Stanford
Pros: Great people, great research, free standing pedi hospital, great ICU experience, seems like the program really cares about their residents and resident wellness, loved that west coast vibe, Palo Alto is beautiful and not as cramped-feeling as San Francisco, short drive to the beach and the mountains, no CRNA school, good mix of residents going into academics/fellowship training/PP
Cons: Incredibly expensive, no moonlighting, residents did not seem thrilled about work hours (some talked about wishing they went to a program with moonlighting and better hours), categorical intern year sounds rough

2/3. MGH
Pros: the name doesn't hurt, great research, creates leaders in the field and seems like it has the resources to get you wherever you want to be, Boston is awesome, new PD is motivated to make positive changes to the program (with old PD still around), TY year at NWH for categorical residents, exposure to everything (except trauma), no CRNA school
Cons: I don't feel like I need coddling, but at times this place seemed a little cut-throat, Boston is expensive, no moonlighting, hours (I expect this to be the case with most top programs)

2/3. Brigham
Pros: the name doesn't hurt, strong research, it's in Boston, had a great time at interview dinner, claims to be "Harvard with a heart" (though BID also says this), no CRNA school
Cons: Boston is expensive, no moonlighting, no livers, slightly weaker peds experience than MGH, categorical intern year sounds rough

After those three it gets a little murky.

Places I'd love to match, but aren't as high on my list (in no particular order):
Vanderbilt (pros: periop, Nashville seems cool and decently affordable, lots of fellowship options cons: PD and I didn't really click, place seems overrun by CRNAs, married people abound, no public transportation, it's in the south, I have no friends there)
Mt. Sinai (pros: awesome people, love the PD, ample moonlighting and research, subsidized housing, finally some single people cons: NYC ain't cheap, weaker peds, old facilities, concerned it would hinder finding a job outside of the NE)
UPMC (pros: happy residents, better lifestyle than most, moonlighting, Pittsburgh is apparently cool now? cons: lack of diversity in faculty I met, lots of different locations, weaker in the area of research I'm interested in, CRNAs/SRNAs everywhere)
Duke (pros: strong in all areas, PD was great, research, affordable, moonlighting cons: intern year, residents at dinner seemed really tired and some were difficult to hold a conversation with, at the lunch a bunch of residents sat in a group rather than interact with interviewees)
UNC (pros: investing a lot in resident education, affordable, really enjoyed my interviews with faculty, moonlighting cons: may be a little too laid back for me, weaker research, Chapel Hill not the best for being single, relationship between dept and CRNAs seemed to be a little rocky)

Places I'd be happy matching at, but I have some concerns about (in no particular order):
UCSF (pros: great name, awesome city, good exposure to all areas of anesthesia, great research, few CRNAs cons: weird interviews, absurdly expensive...I'm not trying to have roommates in residency, lots of hospitals)
UAB (pros: loved the program on paper, very supportive of additional education and research while in residency, ridiculous amounts of moonlighting, affordable cons: residents not diverse...75% married white guys, it's in Alabama, many go PP)
WashU (pros: great research, strong in all areas, moonlighting, affordable cons: weird PD interview, St. Louis is somewhat sketchy, some residents voiced concerns about work hours)
UVA (pros: great vibe from program leadership, Charlottesville, moonlighting, pedi hearts rotation, great resident education cons: most go into PP, low OB #'s, weaker research, everyone is married, Charlottesville isn't the easiest place to be single)
BID (pros: Harvard affiliation, Boston, great PD, good access to research cons: weak exposure to transplants, didn't click as well with residents here as I did at BWH and MGH, expensive, feel like I'd get better training elsewhere)
Miami (pros: Miami, good trauma and transplant exposure, moonlighting cons: not as academic as I would like, residents complained about working hours, expensive, not a research powerhouse)

Meh (in no particular order):
Penn
Baylor
Columbia

I'm grateful for the opportunity I've had to interview at all of these incredible places. My fellow interviewees have incredible education and research backgrounds and have accomplished far more than I have in medical school. My favorite programs are all extremely competitive so I'm prepared to drop lower on my rank list (and I'm okay with that). I could see myself getting excellent training at almost all of the programs above. I'd appreciate any words of wisdom as I try to figure out my rank list!

Great list. What didn't you like about Columbia? NYC is a great place to live.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Nivens]

I'm not sure how periop is anything but a plus? Do you want to go to a program that teaches you how to be an in-room anesthesia provider, or how to be a perioperative physician. Because, the days of physician anesthesiologists being the former are numbered. If you don't know how to be a perioperative physician, you won't have a job. In the same vein, I really don't see how having S/CRNAs is a bad thing- they take the easy lap appy from you so you aren't stuck doing that kind of case as a CA3. The presence of nurses means you aren't the primary workforce, so you are able to focus on education.

A lot of very bold statements in here. Remember to come back to this post as an anesthesia resident once you have a few of these "perioperative" rotations under your belt.

 

[purpledragon1]

I'd love to hear about places more... accessible to people with middle of the bell curve Step scores.

I am one of those people who interviewed at pretty much midtier places, but am happy with where I am interviewed. I interviewed at 17 places total. These are my preliminary thoughts on my ROL (in order of preference). I am originally from California but go to school in the midwest.

Cedars-Sinai / USC
Most likely want to end up in California so likely will have one of my CA programs at the top. Not a fan of Cedars and USC PGY-1 years (basically surgery prelim). I am concerned about Cedars and their 1-to-1 model, could be a good OR a bad thing. They seem have a good reputation in southern California, in a great location (but expensive).
Liked USC as well, lots of autonomy with a county hospital, but also surgery prelim year practically. Location not as good as Cedars but likely less expensive (?). Residents seem happy at both places. USC is larger, Cedars on the smaller side. Probably will rank Cedars or USC #1 but not sure which one. Any thoughts?

Loma Linda
Good training, location, seemed like a supportive environment. Seemed like a solid program, not very academic but seems like clinically shouldn't be any issues. Lots of autonomy according to residents.

Harbor-UCLA vs Michigan ?
Harbor is in California, but Michigan is a top academic residency. I actually liked Ann Arbor a lot when I visited, but feel like I might get tired of the snow and college town feel. Michigan seemed like an extremely well-rounded program that has a great reputation and connections, lots of research, etc. If it were in a warmer climate wouldn't hesitate to rank it at the top.
Harbor is a small community program in a good location for me, clinical training seemed strong but little research. Residents seemed to get into great fellowships despite the program's reputation.

Cleveland Clinic vs UTSW vs UT-Houston ?
Strong clinical training at all of these programs, research strong at CCF, seemed strong enough at UTSW, less so at UT-Houston. Weather better at the TX programs, but CCF probably (?) has an edge in terms of reputation.

UMiami/Jackson Memorial
Case Western University Hospitals
University of Tennessee - Knoxville
George Washington
University of Arizona
Honestly having trouble ranking programs in the middle.


Henry Ford
Wayne State
Beaumont
Case Western MetroHealth
These are probably toward the bottom of my list.

Any thoughts?

 

[Shimmy8]

I'm a current chief; my brief spiel to applicants I talk to as a group before we start interview process:

- prestige vs location is a personal decision based on family, career goals, etc. No one can tell you the correct answer. Reconcile these with case volume, variety, etc.

- don't go anywhere with a CRNA running the board.

- In the end, go with your gut as to where you feel like you fit in personality wise, academic wise, goals, or location. You won't become a great anesthesiologist or physician if you're miserable for four years. Choose the place you'd be happiest opening up that envelope.

 

[Dam272]

Apart from Detroit vs Chicago, can somebody please give me their views on Henry ford vs Cook County. Both have decent fellowship matches, henry has more emphasis and budget for research and they are trying to promote POSH in the hospital. Cook has people matching into yale and BID for fellowships. I am looking for either CC or peds fellowship down the line.

 

[misteratoz]

You are confusing correlation with causation. There is a large element of self-selection going on in the ranks of academia.

How so? I probably want to do academics and being PD seems like something I would want. Are you saying people interested in academics prioritize prestige? It seems to me that academia is about connections, and you'll get more high quality ones at these places.

 

[misteratoz]

Great list. What didn't you like about Columbia? NYC is a great place to live.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I am one of those people who interviewed at pretty much midtier places, but am happy with where I am interviewed. I interviewed at 17 places total. These are my preliminary thoughts on my ROL (in order of preference). I am originally from California but go to school in the midwest.

Cedars-Sinai / USC
Most likely want to end up in California so likely will have one of my CA programs at the top. Not a fan of Cedars and USC PGY-1 years (basically surgery prelim). I am concerned about Cedars and their 1-to-1 model, could be a good OR a bad thing. They seem have a good reputation in southern California, in a great location (but expensive).
Liked USC as well, lots of autonomy with a county hospital, but also surgery prelim year practically. Location not as good as Cedars but likely less expensive (?). Residents seem happy at both places. USC is larger, Cedars on the smaller side. Probably will rank Cedars or USC #1 but not sure which one. Any thoughts?

Loma Linda
Good training, location, seemed like a supportive environment. Seemed like a solid program, not very academic but seems like clinically shouldn't be any issues. Lots of autonomy according to residents.

Harbor-UCLA vs Michigan ?
Harbor is in California, but Michigan is a top academic residency. I actually liked Ann Arbor a lot when I visited, but feel like I might get tired of the snow and college town feel. Michigan seemed like an extremely well-rounded program that has a great reputation and connections, lots of research, etc. If it were in a warmer climate wouldn't hesitate to rank it at the top.
Harbor is a small community program in a good location for me, clinical training seemed strong but little research. Residents seemed to get into great fellowships despite the program's reputation.

Cleveland Clinic vs UTSW vs UT-Houston ?
Strong clinical training at all of these programs, research strong at CCF, seemed strong enough at UTSW, less so at UT-Houston. Weather better at the TX programs, but CCF probably (?) has an edge in terms of reputation.

UMiami/Jackson Memorial
Case Western University Hospitals
University of Tennessee - Knoxville
George Washington
University of Arizona
Honestly having trouble ranking programs in the middle.


Henry Ford
Wayne State
Beaumont
Case Western MetroHealth
These are probably toward the bottom of my list.

Any thoughts?

Great list. What didn't you like about Columbia? NYC is a great place to live.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

My thoughts on Columbia: Obviously great training, especially for ICU/Cardiac/Transplant. Will be the one of the first residencies to get an accredited regional fellowship next year. That being said, it's a program that leverages its reputation heavily to get good resident labor. It's not a place where I imagine people are particularly interested in mentorship. The PD and Chair are not particularly involved in resident lives. Faculty didn't seem particularly enthusiastic during interview day. Residents literally sat by themselves during an interview dinner. The facilities are meh and NYC is expensive as hell to live in though of course, it has its perks. I'm ranking it fairly highly but my experience is making me shy away from it as whole.

I am one of those people who interviewed at pretty much midtier places, but am happy with where I am interviewed. I interviewed at 17 places total. These are my preliminary thoughts on my ROL (in order of preference). I am originally from California but go to school in the midwest.

Cedars-Sinai / USC
Most likely want to end up in California so likely will have one of my CA programs at the top. Not a fan of Cedars and USC PGY-1 years (basically surgery prelim). I am concerned about Cedars and their 1-to-1 model, could be a good OR a bad thing. They seem have a good reputation in southern California, in a great location (but expensive).
Liked USC as well, lots of autonomy with a county hospital, but also surgery prelim year practically. Location not as good as Cedars but likely less expensive (?). Residents seem happy at both places. USC is larger, Cedars on the smaller side. Probably will rank Cedars or USC #1 but not sure which one. Any thoughts?

Loma Linda
Good training, location, seemed like a supportive environment. Seemed like a solid program, not very academic but seems like clinically shouldn't be any issues. Lots of autonomy according to residents.

Harbor-UCLA vs Michigan ?
Harbor is in California, but Michigan is a top academic residency. I actually liked Ann Arbor a lot when I visited, but feel like I might get tired of the snow and college town feel. Michigan seemed like an extremely well-rounded program that has a great reputation and connections, lots of research, etc. If it were in a warmer climate wouldn't hesitate to rank it at the top.
Harbor is a small community program in a good location for me, clinical training seemed strong but little research. Residents seemed to get into great fellowships despite the program's reputation.

Cleveland Clinic vs UTSW vs UT-Houston ?
Strong clinical training at all of these programs, research strong at CCF, seemed strong enough at UTSW, less so at UT-Houston. Weather better at the TX programs, but CCF probably (?) has an edge in terms of reputation.

UMiami/Jackson Memorial
Case Western University Hospitals
University of Tennessee - Knoxville
George Washington
University of Arizona
Honestly having trouble ranking programs in the middle.


Henry Ford
Wayne State
Beaumont
Case Western MetroHealth
These are probably toward the bottom of my list.

Any thoughts?

Cedar Sinai:

I left this program with a much higher opinion of the place than what SDN would let me on to think.

1.) The chairman was off putting to some, but I liked him a lot. He basically spent an hour quoting why Cedars is the greatest things ever and he had some strong points. What I liked about him most is that he understood and addressed the political climate in anesthesia better than any other chair I've seen. He purposefully kept the anesthesiology group all MD's and leveraged the size and demand of his group to get good compensation from insurance companies. This is a guy you want behind you.

2.) One on one supervision: I think this gets quoted as the biggest drawback of the program. Based on what I've seen, the supervision isn't more extensive than what you would get at other institutions, especially during CA-1. The attendings let you run most of the case in CA-1 and pop their head in every once in a while like you'd expect. By CA-3, you do your entire case and can even supervise medical students and residents. Residents at dinner and the interview day felt they got a good mix of mentorship and oversight.

3.) Program itself: This place is one of the largest in the country. > 1000 beds, hundreds of which are ICU, and >100 OR's doing hundreds of cases/day. BUT the RESIDENCY program isn't. It's capped at 12 even though the ACGME allows 40. Also there are no CRNA's or SRNA's. That basically means that you get your pick of cases every day. That combined with the fact that the place is run like a private practice (chairman quoted ORIFs done in ~20 minutes) means you get enormous volume in short periods of time. Residents said that they tripled and quadrupled their numbers. You also get used to doing things efficiently, which seems to be a very useful skill to have. Because they don't need you, residents can always get to lectures and always go on conferences fully paid. That's kind of unique. Residents also do well on the boards because reviews are high yield and lectures are well taught. The strength of the program is definitely ICU training. You do almost half a year of it, a lot of which is in a anesthesia run CVICU. It's also the highest volume OB center in the country and does more heart transplants than anywhere else. Also high volume artificial hearts/VAD's/ECMO. Do most kinds of transplants including liver, lung, heart, kidney, and pancreas. So you're going to get great cardiac, ICU, and OB training with in house fellowships for everything but peds (which is done at Children's hospital of LA). It seems ~50% stay here for fellowship but otherwise they match very strongly, although I'm not too sure about the specifics. In house moonlighting at CA-1 after Ob and Pain rotations. Research is mainly clinical although one guy is apparently doing bench, which is fine by me. Lastly, I really like that they have so much of an emphasis on the business side of medicine. They bring in JD's and MBA's to teach you what you need to know and I think this is a tremendous and unique resource in the real world. Hours: ~70-80 in PGY-1, 65 ish for CA years.

4.) Location: You're in LA. 20 minutes to the beach, a few hours from the mountains, and sunshine all day. Hard to beat this location. Yeah it's expensive but not moreso than most other cities I've been to.

 

[misteratoz]

/

 

[Psai]

Rehashed ROL for critique:

1.) UPenn: + Close to home, well rounded program, strong research, excellent placement. -Workhorse vibe
2.) Umich: + Awesome leadership, well rounded program, largest alumni network, strong ressearch, great EMR for data mining, wealthy department. -Far from home and cold.
3.) Mayo: +Zebra mill, awesome regional/cardiac/ICU training, wealthy department, strong research. -Peds and OB are a bit weak volume wise (but options to get more), Rochester is far from home and cold.
4.) Cedars Sinai: Stuff I mentioned in above comment
5.) NYP, Columbia: Ditto.


6-10: Need help here.
-UVA, (awesome peeps, great location, not so great research)
-CCF (bad location but great clinical training and research)
-Yale (great research and clinical training, involved PD/Chair, but not the greatest fan of the location)
-NYU (more PP oriented program with great clinical training and more relaxed culture. Research isn't the greatest, Advanced only)
-Jefferson: Great location and closet to home and very strong regional, PD and Chair are very involved. Just wasn't particularly impressed on interview day.

11.) Dartmouth: People were very kind, very strong regional and echo training. - Limited in some cardiac stuff, location is very isolated from civilization, not much ethnic diversity.
12.) Columbia APGAR (extra year of training to do research seems a bit much, even if they do pay you an extra $20k/year)
13.) RWJ: advanced only unfortunately. Great CT training and everything is one location, which is nice. Decent location.
14.) Case Western UH: Not a bad program, but not a fan of Cleveland. Fairly long hours and not so great research.
15.) NJMS: Not a fan of location, crap ancillary support, meh research but quite strong clinical training.

For reference: Interested in the ICU/Cardiac side. Probably want to do academics. Prefer strong peds training if possible.

Thought your list was fine the way you had it

 

[anbuitachi]

Still pretty conflicted and this list may change quite a bit, but this is what I'm thinking as of now. I'm looking for a place with strong research and good fellowship programs in most if not all departments (not sure what I want to subspecialize in). In the future, I'd like to go into academics in the southwest. I'm single and would like to stick to a large-ish city where I'm not the only person in the program without a ring on their finger. Given the political climate in the south and a strong desire for a change of scenery, I'm think I'm ready to get out for a little while. Here goes nothing...

1. Stanford
Pros: Great people, great research, free standing pedi hospital, great ICU experience, seems like the program really cares about their residents and resident wellness, loved that west coast vibe, Palo Alto is beautiful and not as cramped-feeling as San Francisco, short drive to the beach and the mountains, no CRNA school, good mix of residents going into academics/fellowship training/PP
Cons: Incredibly expensive, no moonlighting, residents did not seem thrilled about work hours (some talked about wishing they went to a program with moonlighting and better hours), categorical intern year sounds rough

2/3. MGH
Pros: the name doesn't hurt, great research, creates leaders in the field and seems like it has the resources to get you wherever you want to be, Boston is awesome, new PD is motivated to make positive changes to the program (with old PD still around), TY year at NWH for categorical residents, exposure to everything (except trauma), no CRNA school
Cons: I don't feel like I need coddling, but at times this place seemed a little cut-throat, Boston is expensive, no moonlighting, hours (I expect this to be the case with most top programs)

2/3. Brigham
Pros: the name doesn't hurt, strong research, it's in Boston, had a great time at interview dinner, claims to be "Harvard with a heart" (though BID also says this), no CRNA school
Cons: Boston is expensive, no moonlighting, no livers, slightly weaker peds experience than MGH, categorical intern year sounds rough

After those three it gets a little murky.

Places I'd love to match, but aren't as high on my list (in no particular order):
Vanderbilt (pros: periop, Nashville seems cool and decently affordable, lots of fellowship options cons: PD and I didn't really click, place seems overrun by CRNAs, married people abound, no public transportation, it's in the south, I have no friends there)
Mt. Sinai (pros: awesome people, love the PD, ample moonlighting and research, subsidized housing, finally some single people cons: NYC ain't cheap, weaker peds, old facilities, concerned it would hinder finding a job outside of the NE)
UPMC (pros: happy residents, better lifestyle than most, moonlighting, Pittsburgh is apparently cool now? cons: lack of diversity in faculty I met, lots of different locations, weaker in the area of research I'm interested in, CRNAs/SRNAs everywhere)
Duke (pros: strong in all areas, PD was great, research, affordable, moonlighting cons: intern year, residents at dinner seemed really tired and some were difficult to hold a conversation with, at the lunch a bunch of residents sat in a group rather than interact with interviewees)
UNC (pros: investing a lot in resident education, affordable, really enjoyed my interviews with faculty, moonlighting cons: may be a little too laid back for me, weaker research, Chapel Hill not the best for being single, relationship between dept and CRNAs seemed to be a little rocky)

Places I'd be happy matching at, but I have some concerns about (in no particular order):
UCSF (pros: great name, awesome city, good exposure to all areas of anesthesia, great research, few CRNAs cons: weird interviews, absurdly expensive...I'm not trying to have roommates in residency, lots of hospitals)
UAB (pros: loved the program on paper, very supportive of additional education and research while in residency, ridiculous amounts of moonlighting, affordable cons: residents not diverse...75% married white guys, it's in Alabama, many go PP)
WashU (pros: great research, strong in all areas, moonlighting, affordable cons: weird PD interview, St. Louis is somewhat sketchy, some residents voiced concerns about work hours)
UVA (pros: great vibe from program leadership, Charlottesville, moonlighting, pedi hearts rotation, great resident education cons: most go into PP, low OB #'s, weaker research, everyone is married, Charlottesville isn't the easiest place to be single)
BID (pros: Harvard affiliation, Boston, great PD, good access to research cons: weak exposure to transplants, didn't click as well with residents here as I did at BWH and MGH, expensive, feel like I'd get better training elsewhere)
Miami (pros: Miami, good trauma and transplant exposure, moonlighting cons: not as academic as I would like, residents complained about working hours, expensive, not a research powerhouse)

Meh (in no particular order):
Penn
Baylor
Columbia

I'm grateful for the opportunity I've had to interview at all of these incredible places. My fellow interviewees have incredible education and research backgrounds and have accomplished far more than I have in medical school. My favorite programs are all extremely competitive so I'm prepared to drop lower on my rank list (and I'm okay with that). I could see myself getting excellent training at almost all of the programs above. I'd appreciate any words of wisdom as I try to figure out my rank list!

"Mt. Sinai (pros: awesome people, love the PD, ample moonlighting and research, subsidized housing, finally some single people cons: NYC ain't cheap, weaker peds, old facilities, concerned it would hinder finding a job outside of the NE)"

Lollllll.

 

[NotFrankUnderwood]

Rehashed ROL for critique:

1.) UPenn: + Close to home, well rounded program, strong research, excellent placement. -Workhorse vibe
2.) Umich: + Awesome leadership, well rounded program, largest alumni network, strong ressearch, great EMR for data mining, wealthy department. -Far from home and cold.
3.) Mayo: +Zebra mill, awesome regional/cardiac/ICU training, wealthy department, strong research. -Peds and OB are a bit weak volume wise (but options to get more), Rochester is far from home and cold.
4.) Cedars Sinai: Stuff I mentioned in above comment
5.) NYP, Columbia: Ditto.


6-10: Need help here.
-UVA, (awesome peeps, great location, not so great research)
-CCF (bad location but great clinical training and research)
-Yale (great research and clinical training, involved PD/Chair, but not the greatest fan of the location)
-NYU (more PP oriented program with great clinical training and more relaxed culture. Research isn't the greatest, Advanced only)
-Jefferson: Great location and closet to home and very strong regional, PD and Chair are very involved. Just wasn't particularly impressed on interview day.

11.) Dartmouth: People were very kind, very strong regional and echo training. - Limited in some cardiac stuff, location is very isolated from civilization, not much ethnic diversity.
12.) Columbia APGAR (extra year of training to do research seems a bit much, even if they do pay you an extra $20k/year)
13.) RWJ: advanced only unfortunately. Great CT training and everything is one location, which is nice. Decent location.
14.) Case Western UH: Not a bad program, but not a fan of Cleveland. Fairly long hours and not so great research.
15.) NJMS: Not a fan of location, crap ancillary support, meh research but quite strong clinical training.

For reference: Interested in the ICU/Cardiac side. Probably want to do academics. Prefer strong peds training if possible.

If you're going for prestige then I would put Columbia above Cedars. May be a great program but I don't think it's known as an academic powerhouse.

 

[misteratoz]

If you're going for prestige then I would put Columbia above Cedars. May be a great program but I don't think it's known as an academic powerhouse.

SDN seems to be against valuing prestige for the most part so I thought it would be prudent to listen and value it less. Cedars is certainly a lot less prestigious but the training certainly seems quite solid and the location is much nicer compared to Columbia. People there also seemed happier. Would I be shooting myself in the foot if I wanted an academic career and went to Cedars? They did well fellowship-wise so it doesn't seem to bad of a tradeoff. On doximity, there's a vast difference in rankings but most people here consider that garbage so I was hoping to get more input.

 

[psychbender]

How so? I probably want to do academics and being PD seems like something I would want. Are you saying people interested in academics prioritize prestige? It seems to me that academia is about connections, and you'll get more high quality ones at these places.

Not many medical students think that they want to become a residency program director, and those that do are likely to be the same that put a lot of stock in perceived prestige. If one's goal is to become the next big leader in the field, write the next major textbook, push out a score of articles a year, then go to a program where the current leaders (mentorship opportunities) and research money are. If you merely want to have a career at an academic institution, then go wherever you will get good training and be happy for four years. I'm Army. Our training programs are decidedly average. Yet, in my small peer group, I have three colleagues that took jobs post-military service with academic medical centers. One of them was offered the position of PD for a Regional/Acute Pain fellowship (despite not being fellowship-trained himself), but declined. Bottom line, going to one of the "top" programs is not a prerequisite for a job at an academic medical center. Once there, if one decides to shift toward leadership or administration, then change track and climb the ladder.

 

[psychbender]

Cedar Sinai:

I left this program with a much higher opinion of the place than what SDN would let me on to think.

1.) The chairman was off putting to some, but I liked him a lot. He basically spent an hour quoting why Cedars is the greatest things ever and he had some strong points. What I liked about him most is that he understood and addressed the political climate in anesthesia better than any other chair I've seen. He purposefully kept the anesthesiology group all MD's and leveraged the size and demand of his group to get good compensation from insurance companies. This is a guy you want behind you.

2.) One on one supervision: I think this gets quoted as the biggest drawback of the program. Based on what I've seen, the supervision isn't more extensive than what you would get at other institutions, especially during CA-1. The attendings let you run most of the case in CA-1 and pop their head in every once in a while like you'd expect. By CA-3, you do your entire case supervise medical students. Residents at dinner and the interview day felt they got a good mix of mentorship and oversight.

3.) Program itself: This place is one of the largest in the country. > 1000 beds, hundreds of which are ICU, and >100 OR's doing hundreds of cases/day. BUT the RESIDENCY program isn't. It's capped at 12 even though the ACGME allows 40. That basically means that you get your pick of cases every day. That combined with the fact that the place is run like a private practice (chairman quoted ORIFs done in ~20 minutes) means you get enormous volume in short periods of time. Residents said that they tripled and quadrupled their numbers. You also get used to doing things efficiently, which seems to be a very useful skill to have. Because they don't need you, residents can always get to lectures and always go on conferences fully paid. That's kind of unique. Residents also do well on the boards because reviews are high yield and lectures are well taught. The strength of the program is definitely ICU training. You do almost half a year of it, a lot of which is in a anesthesia run CVICU. It's also the highest volume OB center in the country and does more heart transplants than anywhere else. Also high volume artificial hearts/VAD's/ECMO. Do most kinds of transplants including liver, lung, heart, kidney, and pancreas. So you're going to get great cardiac, ICU, and OB training with in house fellowships for everything but peds (which is done at Children's hospital of LA). It seems ~50% stay here for Peds but otherwise they match very strongly, although I'm not too sure about the specifics. In house moonlighting at CA-1 after Ob and Pain call. Research is mainly clinical although one guy is apparently doing bench, which is fine by me. Lastly, I really like that they have so much of an emphasis on the business side of medicine. They bring in JD's and MBA's to teach you what you need to know and I think this is a tremendous and unique resource in the real world. Hours: ~70-80 in PGY-1, 65 ish for CA years.

4.) Location: You're in LA. 20 minutes to the beach, a few hours from the mountains, and sunshine all day. Hard to beat this location. Yeah it's expensive but not moreso than most other cities I've been to.

Huh, aside from being in LA, that sounds awesome. Has anyone heard of a program like that (high volume and acuity, no CRNAs) east of the Mississippi?

 

[abolt18]

Huh, aside from being in LA, that sounds awesome. Has anyone heard of a program like that (high volume and acuity, no CRNAs) east of the Mississippi?

Indiana is like that right? Not sure how it compares in volume and acuity though.

 

[Psai]

Not many medical students think that they want to become a residency program director, and those that do are likely to be the same that put a lot of stock in perceived prestige. If one's goal is to become the next big leader in the field, write the next major textbook, push out a score of articles a year, then go to a program where the current leaders (mentorship opportunities) and research money are. If you merely want to have a career at an academic institution, then go wherever you will get good training and be happy for four years. I'm Army. Our training programs are decidedly average. Yet, in my small peer group, I have three colleagues that took jobs post-military service with academic medical centers. One of them was offered the position of PD for a Regional/Acute Pain fellowship (despite not being fellowship-trained himself), but declined. Bottom line, going to one of the "top" programs is not a prerequisite for a job at an academic medical center. Once there, if one decides to shift toward leadership or administration, then change track and climb the ladder.

That probably says more about the "fellowship" than your friend.

 

[psychbender]

That probably says more about the "fellowship" than your friend.

That's probably correct, but don't tell that to some people here. I put that there mostly to demonstrate that a pedigree from the top programs is not necessary for academia or leadership in academia.

 

[New World... Symphony!]

Rehashed ROL for critique:

1.) UPenn: + Close to home, well rounded program, strong research, excellent placement. -Workhorse vibe
2.) Umich: + Awesome leadership, well rounded program, largest alumni network, strong ressearch, great EMR for data mining, wealthy department. -Far from home and cold.
3.) Mayo: +Zebra mill, awesome regional/cardiac/ICU training, wealthy department, strong research. -Peds and OB are a bit weak volume wise (but options to get more), Rochester is far from home and cold.
4.) Cedars Sinai: Stuff I mentioned in above comment
5.) NYP, Columbia: Ditto.


6-10: Need help here.
-UVA, (awesome peeps, great location, not so great research)
-CCF (bad location but great clinical training and research)
-Yale (great research and clinical training, involved PD/Chair, but not the greatest fan of the location)
-NYU (more PP oriented program with great clinical training and more relaxed culture. Research isn't the greatest, Advanced only)
-Jefferson: Great location and closet to home and very strong regional, PD and Chair are very involved. Just wasn't particularly impressed on interview day.

11.) Dartmouth: People were very kind, very strong regional and echo training. - Limited in some cardiac stuff, location is very isolated from civilization, not much ethnic diversity.
12.) Columbia APGAR (extra year of training to do research seems a bit much, even if they do pay you an extra $20k/year)
13.) RWJ: advanced only unfortunately. Great CT training and everything is one location, which is nice. Decent location.
14.) Case Western UH: Not a bad program, but not a fan of Cleveland. Fairly long hours and not so great research.
15.) NJMS: Not a fan of location, crap ancillary support, meh research but quite strong clinical training.

For reference: Interested in the ICU/Cardiac side. Probably want to do academics. Prefer strong peds training if possible.

So, I'm likely biased being from Cleveland, but I can tell you that almost everyone in Cleveland is adamant in the belief that it is the greatest city on Earth. That feeling is not solely out of loyalty and solidarity, but it actually is a great city. It has anything you could ever want. Every food. Every sport. The largest performing arts district in the world outside of NYC. One of, if not arguably the best orchestras in the world. A kick ass art museum that has one of the three Monet Lilies, which is free. Its a multicultural melting pot. Good public transportation. Extremely affordable. An entire string of metroparks that earned the city the nickname Forest City. It is a culinary gold mine, with many James Beard Award winning chefs. There are tons of great breweries. Seriously the only negative is that the weather can suck in the winter. But being from close to Philly, I imagine that's something you are used to. What is it that you want? I can nearly guarantee Cleveland has it. There is a reason Clevelanders are fierce and effusive in their praise for Cleveland. Its because its great.

 

[New World... Symphony!]

I'm starting to lean:
1.) Duke
2.) Pitt
3.) Vanderbilt

In terms of location, I think they're all pretty great places. Nashville is loads of fun, but has gotten a bit big for its breeches, has awful traffic, and is becoming pretty expensive. Pittsburgh has way too many Steeler fans and somewhat worse weather than the other two. Durham is the smallest but has changed so much even over the past 5 years. Definitely gentrifying- new restaurants, breweries, bars. Still inexpensive, and good weather.

I think Duke probably has the edge in terms of prestige, particularly in the area of perioperative medicine and enhanced recovery. Plus I love the affiliation with University College London Hospital- I'm actually doing a rotation there after match. Pitt definitely has the edge in regional and in intern year. And I really like both the former and current PD at Vanderbilt, I think they're really exploring new and interesting things.

The things kind of giving me pause is that I liked the people at Pitt and Vandy a little more than at Duke (residents, I mean). And Duke had the resident commit suicide 6 months ago. While they said they've created a new resident wellness committee and are doing things to address the issues, its still a bit of a red flag. Though, of course, there are so many things that go into that situation, and my understanding is that she had a lot of personal struggles coming in.

 

[AdmiralChz]

And Duke had the resident commit suicide 6 months ago.

Wow.

 

[stepone2015]

My top few in order:

Pitt - generally awesome at everything, amazing intern year
UMich - intern year doesn't seem that great
Columbia - I've heard many stories about how hard they work residents, also, little trauma
Dartmouth - shocked by how much I liked it there, major con is tiny town, but that also has its advantages for me
NYU - hard to get a good feel for the program due to lack of interview dinner and brief interviews, the residents being in the conference room isn't the same thing

 

[dumbmedstudent]

Thanks for sharing everyone- this is all very useful information. I'll do a little write up of my own later.
Personally, I have a hard time coming to grips that I will likely rank some of the "top tier" Eastern programs below some mediocre west coast programs due to family/location reasons

 

[CMP85]

I see many comments regarding rank lists that are mentioning intern year, whether it's hard or easy, or plus/minus.

There is nothing less important in your decision; you're choosing an anesthesiology residency, not a medicine one, and all intern years will be difficult at times, and still have a couple easier months. As a CA-2 I just wanted to mention that your internship will fly by, it's like choosing medical school based on one clerkship you're not even interested in.