How about starting to talk about our 2017 rank lists?

[misteratoz]

Hi! Since it's time to start finalizing my match list I wanted to kick things off with mine and let you all critique or give me ideas. In order:


1.) University of Pennsylvania:

+ Very complete program w/ freestanding peds hospital. Quite close to my home with ease of access,

-Work their residents to the bone. Got mixed feeling on interview day.


2.)University of Michigan:

+Very friendly staff (great PD), great facilities, strong and diverse course load, largest alumni network in the country

-Huge class, far from home, CBY is very surgery intensive,



3.) Mayo Clinic (Rochester)

+Huge surgical volume w/ plenty of zebras, world class facilities, amazing travel fund, great intraop teaching, friendly people all around, strong regional, awesome research infrastructure, decent hours (though increased recently), low cost of living and no traffic

-Not so great for OB (don't care) or Peds (fly you out to get this). In Rochester (far from civilization). SRNA school, not very diverse SES/ethnicity wise,


4.)NYP (Columbia):

+Very diverse course load w/ transplants, very strong hearts (interest of mine), very strong research infrastructure, freestanding children's hospital, relatively near home, very strong ICU training

-Overworked residents, research is pushed aggressively, facilities are meh, not so great part of NY and high living expenses, chair and PD seem removed from resident life.



5.) New York University:

+Residents are laid back, strong trauma and regional experience, great peds, very friendly PD, research not pushed.

-Research is there but not abundant, NY is expensive to live in, advanced only


6.) Cleveland Clinic:

+Very strong hearts (am interested in cards) and pretty huge course load, no traffic

-Seem to be a lot of DO/FMG's, Huge SRNA mill, large class size, cleveland isn't the greatest.


7.) UVA:

+ Very friendly people/down to earth, 6 months of anesthesia in PGY-1 (good for fellowship decisions), high complexity clinical cases, chairman and PD are very involved

-Research seems weak, most go into pp,


8.) Yale:

+ Strong clinical, strong research infrastucture, residents seem happy, chairman and PD are very involved with residents

- New Haven is meh and far from home


9.) Dartmouth:

+Strong clinicals, probably among the friendliest people I've met, strong push for TEE/TTE,

-Lebanon is hard to get to and too quiet. Little SES/ethnic diversity.


10.) Thomas Jefferson: Among the stranger interviews I've had. Seems like a decent program in a great location, but nothing stands out.


11.) RWJ: Decent program, strong hearts, but advanced only.


12.) Cedar Sinai: Mixed feelings here. On one hand probably good clinical experience (no CRNA's!) but also seems that their supervisory model is annoying. Location is a + or - (cost).


13.) NJMS: Strong clinically but horrendous support staff and no so great place to live. Research is meh.

Edited in the face of much criticism

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[La_Croix]

N/A

 

[misteratoz]

Awesome! I loved Umich but struggled with the location. For me being close to home is pretty important all things considered. If I might ask, what did you love about UMich?

 

[La_Croix]

Awesome! I loved Umich but struggled with the location. For me being close to home is pretty important all things considered. If I might ask, what did you love about UMich?

It's closer to home, I enjoy the college-town atmosphere, and the interviewers gave the best answer to a personal question that I asked everyone on the trail.

 

[Spacedman]

1.) University of Pennsylvania:
+ Very complete program w/ freestanding peds hospital. Quite close to my home with ease of access, high prestige
-Work their residents to the bone. Research is pushed. Got mixed feeling on interview day.


3.) NYP (Columbia):
+Very diverse course load w/ transplants, very strong hearts (interest of mine), very strong research infrastructure, freestanding children's hospital, prestige, relatively near home, very strong ICU training
-Overworked residents, research is pushed aggressively, facilities are meh, not so great part of NY and high living expenses, chair and PD seem removed from resident life.

5.) New York University:
+Residents are laid back, strong trauma and regional experience, great peds, very friendly PD, research not pushed.
-Not classically prestigious, research is there but not abundant, NY is expensive to live in, advanced only

7.) UVA:
+ Very friendly people/down to earth, 6 months of anesthesia in PGY-1 (good for fellowship decisions), high complexity clinical cases, chairman and PD are very involved
-Research seems weak, most go into pp, not that prestigious

8.) Yale:
+ Strong clinical, strong research infrastucture, residents seem happy, chairman and PD are very involved with residents
- New Haven is meh and far from home

I'm genuinely curious - why is research sometimes a "+" and other times a "-"?

 

[misteratoz]

I'm genuinely curious - why is research sometimes a "+" and other times a "-"?

I want my program to have an abundance of opportunity to do research at my own leisure as opposed to being forced to do research to bolster program stats. It's a thin line that was theoretically important to me. However, I admit it played little role in crafting this version of a rank list.

 

[Izzyman]

Not impressive at all as other SDN users here but I'll chime in

#1 University of Michigan

Not sure how to separate the rest.

UIC had the friendliest feel. HF gives great training and has a new seasoned chairman (previously for a big name program in Miami) that seems very dedicated. He also said HF will be the best program in Midwest soon enough. The IV day left me feeling cold though. Rush has made improvements.

Henry Ford - Detroit
Rush
UIC
University of Kentucky

Wayne State - DMC
Beaumont


Yea I didn't go to many and didn't get the invites I thought I would. Oh well. :/

Any help appreciated.

 

[NotFrankUnderwood]

Hi! Since it's time to start finalizing my match list I wanted to kick things off with mine and let you all critique or give me ideas. In order:

1.) University of Pennsylvania:
+ Very complete program w/ freestanding peds hospital. Quite close to my home with ease of access, high prestige
-Work their residents to the bone. Research is pushed. Got mixed feeling on interview day.

2.) Mayo Clinic (Rochester)
+Huge surgical volume w/ plenty of zebras, world class facilities, amazing travel fund, great intraop teaching, friendly people all around, strong regional, quite prestigious, awesome research infrastructure, decent hours (though increased recently), low cost of living and no traffic
-Not so great for OB (don't care) or Peds (fly you out to get this). In Rochester (far from civilization). SRNA school, not very diverse SES/ethnicity wise,

3.) NYP (Columbia):
+Very diverse course load w/ transplants, very strong hearts (interest of mine), very strong research infrastructure, freestanding children's hospital, prestige, relatively near home, very strong ICU training
-Overworked residents, research is pushed aggressively, facilities are meh, not so great part of NY and high living expenses, chair and PD seem removed from resident life.

4.) University of Michigan:
+Very friendly staff (great PD), great facilities, strong and diverse course load, largest alumni network in the country
-Huge class, far from home, CBY is very surgery intensive,

5.) New York University:
+Residents are laid back, strong trauma and regional experience, great peds, very friendly PD, research not pushed.
-Not classically prestigious, research is there but not abundant, NY is expensive to live in, advanced only

6.) Cleveland Clinic:
+Very strong hearts (am interested in cards) and pretty huge course load, decently prestigious, no traffic
-Seem to be a lot of DO/FMG's, Huge SRNA mill, large class size, cleveland isn't the greatest.

7.) UVA:
+ Very friendly people/down to earth, 6 months of anesthesia in PGY-1 (good for fellowship decisions), high complexity clinical cases, chairman and PD are very involved
-Research seems weak, most go into pp, not that prestigious

8.) Yale:
+ Strong clinical, strong research infrastucture, residents seem happy, chairman and PD are very involved with residents
- New Haven is meh and far from home

9.) Dartmouth:
+Strong clinicals, probably among the friendliest people I've met, strong push for TEE/TTE,
-Lebanon is hard to get to and too quiet. Little SES/ethnic diversity.

10.) Thomas Jefferson: Among the stranger interviews I've had. Seems like a decent program in a great location, but nothing stands out.

11.) RWJ: Decent program, strong hearts, but advanced only.

12.) Cedar Sinai: Mixed feelings here. On one hand probably good clinical experience (no CRNA's!) but also seems that their supervisory model is annoying. Location is a + or - (cost).

13.) NJMS: Strong clinically but horrendous support staff and no so great place to live. Research is meh.

Weren't you the one that had the toxic parents who were disappointed you chose anesthesiology instead of something more prestigious? You sure you don't want to go far away from home?

 

[misteratoz]

Weren't you the one that had the toxic parents who were disappointed you chose anesthesiology instead of something more prestigious? You sure you don't want to go far away from home?

Lol this reminds me of r/relationships. Don't like someone? Run far far away from your problems. Nah I like my family. I don't have to agree with everything they say though. I'm sure you can relate.

 

[misteratoz]

Heard mixed things about rush which is why I didn't apply there. Can't comment on the rest. What do you value most in programs?

 

[ERRES2288]

Not impressive at all as other SDN users here but I'll chime in

#1 University of Michigan

Not sure how to separate the rest. UIC had the most friendliest feel. HF gives great training and have a new chairman that seems very dedicated, but left me feeling cold on IV day. Rush has made improvements.

Henry Ford
Rush
UIC
University of Kentucky

Wayne State - DMC
Beaumont


Yea I didn't go to many and didn't get the invites I thought I would. Oh well. :/

Any help appreciated.

I really liked UIC. Seemed very chill with solid training.

 

[Izzyman]

Heard mixed things about rush which is why I didn't apply there. Can't comment on the rest. What do you value most in programs?

I think all will give solid training and a chance at good fellowships. I value a program that has a good learning environment, not malignant, friendly, etc.

 

[Psai]

To op, don't give a second thought to prestige. It is relatively meaningless. Everyone I asked said gut feeling and now that I'm on the other side, I totally agree. Happiness > what some old men think about your program

 

[Sanj04]

Is anyone struggling to pick a #1?

 

[misteratoz]

To op, don't give a second thought to prestige. It is relatively meaningless. Everyone I asked said gut feeling and now that I'm on the other side, I totally agree. Happiness > what some old men think about your program

I'm probably doing academics and it seems to matter. Also I have a hard time believing it doesn't give you an edge in terms of getting a foot in the door for job applications.

 

[Psai]

I just realized that you were the guy who kept harping on doximity rankings. Probably does matter for academics but what matters more is geography and network

 

[poopofol]

Created an account just to get some feedback on my developing rank list - just FYI couples matching so it does somewhat affect the order

1/2. Columbia/Cornell (I would really appreciate some perspective on this)
3. UChicago
4. Northwestern
5. UCSD
6. UC Irvine
7. University of Washington
8. University of Michigan
9. Yale
10. Pittsburgh
11. Baylor
12. Emory

 

[Passingastxingpain]

Hi! Since it's time to start finalizing my match list I wanted to kick things off with mine and let you all critique or give me ideas. In order:

1.) University of Pennsylvania:
+ Very complete program w/ freestanding peds hospital. Quite close to my home with ease of access, high prestige
-Work their residents to the bone. Research is pushed. Got mixed feeling on interview day.

2.) Mayo Clinic (Rochester)
+Huge surgical volume w/ plenty of zebras, world class facilities, amazing travel fund, great intraop teaching, friendly people all around, strong regional, quite prestigious, awesome research infrastructure, decent hours (though increased recently), low cost of living and no traffic
-Not so great for OB (don't care) or Peds (fly you out to get this). In Rochester (far from civilization). SRNA school, not very diverse SES/ethnicity wise,

3.) NYP (Columbia):
+Very diverse course load w/ transplants, very strong hearts (interest of mine), very strong research infrastructure, freestanding children's hospital, prestige, relatively near home, very strong ICU training
-Overworked residents, research is pushed aggressively, facilities are meh, not so great part of NY and high living expenses, chair and PD seem removed from resident life.

4.) University of Michigan:
+Very friendly staff (great PD), great facilities, strong and diverse course load, largest alumni network in the country
-Huge class, far from home, CBY is very surgery intensive,

5.) New York University:
+Residents are laid back, strong trauma and regional experience, great peds, very friendly PD, research not pushed.
-Not classically prestigious, research is there but not abundant, NY is expensive to live in, advanced only

6.) Cleveland Clinic:
+Very strong hearts (am interested in cards) and pretty huge course load, decently prestigious, no traffic
-Seem to be a lot of DO/FMG's, Huge SRNA mill, large class size, cleveland isn't the greatest.

7.) UVA:
+ Very friendly people/down to earth, 6 months of anesthesia in PGY-1 (good for fellowship decisions), high complexity clinical cases, chairman and PD are very involved
-Research seems weak, most go into pp, not that prestigious

8.) Yale:
+ Strong clinical, strong research infrastucture, residents seem happy, chairman and PD are very involved with residents
- New Haven is meh and far from home

9.) Dartmouth:
+Strong clinicals, probably among the friendliest people I've met, strong push for TEE/TTE,
-Lebanon is hard to get to and too quiet. Little SES/ethnic diversity.

10.) Thomas Jefferson: Among the stranger interviews I've had. Seems like a decent program in a great location, but nothing stands out.

11.) RWJ: Decent program, strong hearts, but advanced only.

12.) Cedar Sinai: Mixed feelings here. On one hand probably good clinical experience (no CRNA's!) but also seems that their supervisory model is annoying. Location is a + or - (cost).

13.) NJMS: Strong clinically but horrendous support staff and no so great place to live. Research is meh.

Your thoughts about DOs a little bit ignorant AF don't ya think?? don't ever compare a DO to a FMG

 

[Dr. Death]

Your thoughts about DOs a little bit ignorant AF don't ya think?? don't ever compare a DO to a FMG

Triggered?

 

[Infexious]

.

 

[abolt18]

Your thoughts about DOs a little bit ignorant AF don't ya think?? don't ever compare a DO to a FMG

Lol this is great because I am a DO, and when I look at programs that have a significant over representation of DO's OR FMG's, I steer clear (see, SLU). My thoughts are, if the program can't get USMDs, what's wrong with it? Also I have met and worked with some truly excellent FMGs so perhaps don't get so worked up.

 

[TeslaCoil]

Lol this is great because I am a DO, and when I look at programs that have a significant over representation of DO's OR FMG's, I steer clear (see, SLU). My thoughts are, if the program can't get USMDs, what's wrong with it? Also I have met and worked with some truly excellent FMGs so perhaps don't get so worked up.

You know when I see a program of 40 that has an IMG or two, I don't think, "wow, that program must be second class". I think, "wow, those IMG's must have worked their ass off to get the spots that US grads couldn't cut". Whenever I see people making blanked statements about IMG's and program reputation, I immediately make blanked assumptions about their IQ. While I agree, a program too heavy on IMG's may be a red flag, almost every program in the US that I can think of has at least one or two exceptional IMG's.

 

[neutro]

Pick the place where you'll be happy.
Also keep in mind that anesthesia experience as a medical student is VASTLY different than actual experience as a resident.
Your choice of fellowship, career in academics vs. pp and location to practice will be modified multiple times in residency.
You will get your paper, be boarded and get enough cases anywhere to get a job. After you're board certified, it's pretty much even field - no one cares if you went to Cleveland Clonic or nyu or UVA...the only thing that matters and determines your success is how well you work with others.

 

[Psai]

Your thoughts about DOs a little bit ignorant AF don't ya think?? don't ever compare a DO to a FMG

You're right, the fmgs usually blow dos out of the water which is why I was always unsure of programs that had more than a few imgs or dos.

 

[Wiscoblue]

There is a very broad spectrum of IMGs. There's IMGs from Cambridge and Oxford and then there are the Caribbean IMGs. It's easier to lump all DOs into one category.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[abolt18]

I'll bite.

1. University of Michigan
2. Washington University in St. Louis
3. Northwestern University
4. University of Chicago
5. University of Iowa
6. Mayo Clinic, Rochester
7. Brigham and Women's
8. University of Virginia
9. University of Wisconsin
10. University of Kansas, Kansas City

For what it's worth, I'm only ranking categorical and thoroughly enjoyed every program, and my significant other had a say in the final rank list. I'd be equally ecstatic anywhere in my top 3, really happy with 4-5, and let down if I drop below that.

For me, WashU sits above Michigan, even though I honestly liked Michigan ever so slightly more. I hate cold and ice, and I already live in STL so the prospect of not moving is huge.

 

[AdmiralChz]

You're right, the fmgs usually blow dos out of the water which is why I was always unsure of programs that had more than a few imgs or dos.

Oy............... so much face palm in this thread. Yikes.

No, just no. More competitive applicants coming out of the US always, ALWAYS will go for DO over Caribbean MD. Especially in this day when it's getting harder and harder for FMGs to break in. Our institution (and others with public funding) largely has eliminated FMGs unless that are true super stars typically from excellent European schools.

A sweeping statement about how poor DOs are as clinicians or applicants is short-sighted and borderline offensive. Not a DO but we have some excellent physicians and they have to work harder and obtain higher scores than the average MD to break into a traditional competitive ACGME residency. What I will say is there is a huge divide amongst the schools in terms of education, training and exposure. We steer clear from several schools, but have had great chief residents from other DO schools. They are physicians just like MDs with the same rights and privileges. I'm at a competitive SE residency and we never regret taking DOs, but they have to be pretty top notch to get their foot in the door.

Whew sorry / end rant.

 

[TeslaCoil]

Oy............... so much face palm in this thread. Yikes.

No, just no. More competitive applicants coming out of the US always, ALWAYS will go for DO over Caribbean MD. Especially in this day when it's getting harder and harder for FMGs to break in. Our institution (and others with public funding) largely has eliminated FMGs unless that are true super stars typically from excellent European schools.

A sweeping statement about how poor DOs are as clinicians or applicants is short-sighted and borderline offensive. Not a DO but we have some excellent physicians and they have to work harder and obtain higher scores than the average MD to break into a traditional competitive ACGME residency. What I will say is there is a huge divide amongst the schools in terms of education, training and exposure. We steer clear from several schools, but have had great chief residents from other DO schools. They are physicians just like MDs with the same rights and privileges. I'm at a competitive SE residency and we never regret taking DOs, but they have to be pretty top notch to get their foot in the door.

Whew sorry / end rant.

I agree that its becoming more competitive, but that goes for everyone, but that includes US grads. I agree that DO's are just as well trained. But if you take a hard look at the Match data, its pretty obvious that solid IMG's match pretty well, with quite a large proportion of them coming from Caribbean schools. Again, I know many solid Caribbean grads that, are just that- solid doctors. All this indiscriminant talk about IMG's is more than borderlining ignorance, and that right there is the only reason for a face plant in this thread.

 

[Psai]

Oy............... so much face palm in this thread. Yikes.

No, just no. More competitive applicants coming out of the US always, ALWAYS will go for DO over Caribbean MD. Especially in this day when it's getting harder and harder for FMGs to break in. Our institution (and others with public funding) largely has eliminated FMGs unless that are true super stars typically from excellent European schools.

A sweeping statement about how poor DOs are as clinicians or applicants is short-sighted and borderline offensive. Not a DO but we have some excellent physicians and they have to work harder and obtain higher scores than the average MD to break into a traditional competitive ACGME residency. What I will say is there is a huge divide amongst the schools in terms of education, training and exposure. We steer clear from several schools, but have had great chief residents from other DO schools. They are physicians just like MDs with the same rights and privileges. I'm at a competitive SE residency and we never regret taking DOs, but they have to be pretty top notch to get their foot in the door.

Whew sorry / end rant.

FMGs are not caribbean grads. They're people who were attendings in other countries and came here to get those sweet dollars. This group doesn't include the people who couldn't get into a us school and went caribbean, those are IMGs. They're not considered foreign grads because many of them are US or Canadian citizens. Some DOs are good, others aren't.

 

[bashwell]

I'm an American who went overseas to study medicine Australia. I got accepted into a few good US med schools (MD), but didn't go. Instead I went to a good Australian med school for personal reasons.

And I definitely wasn't the only American either. Although there seemed to be a lot more Canadians studying in Australia. (Though I "think" Canadian med schools are considered on par with US med schools? The Canadians in Australia seemed to consider Australian med schools on par with Canadian med schools, but that might be biased).

I don't know what or how exactly I'd be considered if I tried to come back home to the US. Probably depends on the specific program.

 

[nimbus]

I'm an American who went overseas to study medicine Australia. I got accepted into a few good US med schools (MD), but didn't go. Instead I went to a good Australian med school for personal reasons.

And I definitely wasn't the only American either. Although there seemed to be a lot more Canadians studying in Australia. (Though I "think" Canadian med schools are considered on par with US med schools? The Canadians in Australia seemed to consider Australian med schools on par with Canadian med schools, but that might be biased).

I don't know what or how exactly I'd be considered if I tried to come back home to the US. Probably depends on the specific program.

My Canadian friend attended a US allopathic med school because she couldn't get into a Canadian medical school. Completed her training and practices in the US now.

 

[Ankido]

I'm an IMG and I'm here for the sweet dollars.

 

[abolt18]

FMGs are not caribbean grads. They're people who were attendings in other countries and came here to get those sweet dollars. This group doesn't include the people who couldn't get into a us school and went caribbean, those are IMGs. They're not considered foreign grads because many of them are US or Canadian citizens. Some DOs are good, others aren't.

This can be said for MD, DO, IMG, FMG, whatever.

 

[misteratoz]

I just realized that you were the guy who kept harping on doximity rankings. Probably does matter for academics but what matters more is geography and network

I'm probably ranking umich over mayo. As for Doximity rankings, they're a rough guage for me and involve more data points and objectivity than the individual opinions of disgruntled physicians on Sdn. They're not perfect by any means and I recognize that. But people also told me where you go to medical school doesn't matter and everything I've learned in the past few years goes against that. Every program is acgme accredited and gives you more or less the same basic stuff. It's the frills that you decide based on. But perhaps I'm dead wrong.

 

[misteratoz]

Your thoughts about DOs a little bit ignorant AF don't ya think?? don't ever compare a DO to a FMG

It would be cumbersome to do otherwise. While the stigma against DO is less than the stigma against IMG/FMG's, it is there and it's convenient to talk about a program like that.

Created an account just to get some feedback on my developing rank list - just FYI couples matching so it does somewhat affect the order

1/2. Columbia/Cornell (I would really appreciate some perspective on this)
3. UChicago
4. Northwestern
5. UCSD
6. UC Irvine
7. University of Washington
8. University of Michigan
9. Yale
10. Pittsburgh
11. Baylor
12. Emory

I didn't like Columbia very much. The major reason I ranked is because it's an east coast program that would make being close to home easier. It is a strong program but I got the distinct impression that the PD and Chair are quite disconnected from the residents. Also, be very sure you're ok living in NYC as a general rule. You will lose almost all of your salary to the high living expenses and the taxes there. I would rank Cornell above Columbia. I would rank UMich a lot higher too: phenomenal leadership, #1 in NIH funding, wealthy department, and the largest Alumni Network in the country. You also get the advantage of a large academic institution without the stuffiness, and who can rule out D1 football?

 

[Crosbyfan87]

I'm an American who went overseas to study medicine Australia. I got accepted into a few good US med schools (MD), but didn't go. Instead I went to a good Australian med school for personal reasons.

And I definitely wasn't the only American either. Although there seemed to be a lot more Canadians studying in Australia. (Though I "think" Canadian med schools are considered on par with US med schools? The Canadians in Australia seemed to consider Australian med schools on par with Canadian med schools, but that might be biased).

I don't know what or how exactly I'd be considered if I tried to come back home to the US. Probably depends on the specific program.

Yeah, no. Getting into a Canadian medical school is significantly harder than getting into an "average" MD school in the US. The stats speak for themselves. Most people here apply to US medical schools as back-ups in case they can't get into Canadian schools, unless we're talking Harvard, Stanford, etc. As for Australia, that seems like a lie (in regards to admission). I find it difficult to believe anyone would want to pay $300k to go to Australia for education when my total medical education is going to cost me $55-60k. I obviously cannot comment on the quality of education there, but in Canada, it's fairly standardised (although everyone likes to joke about U of S not being as good as rest of the country).

Sorry for helping derail this thread. Continue on.

 

[TeslaCoil]

It would be cumbersome to do otherwise. While the stigma against DO is less than the stigma against IMG/FMG's, it is there and it's convenient to talk about a program like that.



I didn't like Columbia very much. The major reason I ranked is because it's an east coast program that would make being close to home easier. It is a strong program but I got the distinct impression that the PD and Chair are quite disconnected from the residents. Also, be very sure you're ok living in NYC as a general rule. You will lose almost all of your salary to the high living expenses and the taxes there. I would rank Cornell above Columbia. I would rank UMich a lot higher too: phenomenal leadership, #1 in NIH funding, wealthy department, and the largest Alumni Network in the country. You also get the advantage of a large academic institution without the stuffiness, and who can rule out D1 football?

Alright smart guy, then I suggest you keep your identity locked up real tight, since there are several program directors out there who are IMG's. Lets not forget that 1/3 of ALL US physicians- also IMGs.

 

[psychbender]

I'm probably ranking umich over mayo. As for Doximity rankings, they're a rough guage for me and involve more data points and objectivity than the individual opinions of disgruntled physicians on Sdn. They're not perfect by any means and I recognize that. But people also told me where you go to medical school doesn't matter and everything I've learned in the past few years goes against that. Every program is acgme accredited and gives you more or less the same basic stuff. It's the frills that you decide based on. But perhaps I'm dead wrong.

You really shouldn't put any stock in Doximetry, those rankings are hardly based on objective data, and are no more accurate than 'individual opinions of disgruntled physicians on SDN.' Something you should realize is that everyone giving you advice has gone through this process you are going through now. Many are in private practice, and may be involved in their groups' hiring process. Still others are in academics, and may be involved in selecting residents or fellows for their programs. Their opinions on what groups or departments want may actually be relevant.

My opinion based on my experience thus far: Regarding med school being important...meh. Undergrad MAY be important for medical school, but your scores and interview are more important. Med school MAY be important for residency matching, but scores and the interview are more important. Residency program MAY be important for fellowship and job interviews, but scores, who can vouch for you, and how you interview are by far more important. Contacts and the alumni network are very useful in finding jobs. Along that vein, the guy that went to SLU will probably have an easier time finding a job in the Midwest than an identical guy who went to Columbia. This is why so many people say to pick a program near where you want to practice after residency (or fellowship), or one with a huge network.

 

[La_Croix]

My opinion based on my experience thus far: Regarding med school being important...meh. Undergrad MAY be important for medical school, but your scores and interview are more important. Med school MAY be important for residency matching, but scores and the interview are more important. Residency program MAY be important for fellowship and job interviews, but scores, who can vouch for you, and how you interview are by far more important. Contacts and the alumni network are very useful in finding jobs. Along that vein, the guy that went to SLU will probably have an easier time finding a job in the Midwest than an identical guy who went to Columbia. This is why so many people say to pick a program near where you want to practice after residency (or fellowship), or one with a huge network.

Yep. I ranked 90% based on location. There are definitely less prestigious programs on my list that are ranked higher than more prestigious ones.

 

[misteratoz]

Alright smart guy, then I suggest you keep your identity locked up real tight, since there are several program directors out there who are IMG's. Lets not forget that 1/3 of ALL US physicians- also IMGs.

In a bit confused. I wasn't trying to be insulting. I respect my colleagues. But from the standpoint of pd's the stigma is real so it's a useful assumption to gauge things. Sorry you took it personally.

You really shouldn't put any stock in Doximetry, those rankings are hardly based on objective data, and are no more accurate than 'individual opinions of disgruntled physicians on SDN.' Something you should realize is that everyone giving you advice has gone through this process you are going through now. Many are in private practice, and may be involved in their groups' hiring process. Still others are in academics, and may be involved in selecting residents or fellows for their programs. Their opinions on what groups or departments want may actually be relevant.

My opinion based on my experience thus far: Regarding med school being important...meh. Undergrad MAY be important for medical school, but your scores and interview are more important. Med school MAY be important for residency matching, but scores and the interview are more important. Residency program MAY be important for fellowship and job interviews, but scores, who can vouch for you, and how you interview are by far more important. Contacts and the alumni network are very useful in finding jobs. Along that vein, the guy that went to SLU will probably have an easier time finding a job in the Midwest than an identical guy who went to Columbia. This is why so many people say to pick a program near where you want to practice after residency (or fellowship), or one with a huge network.

Points fully noted.

 

[TeslaCoil]

In a bit confused. I wasn't trying to be insulting. I respect my colleagues. But from the standpoint of pd's the stigma is real so it's a useful assumption to gauge things. Sorry you took it personally.


Points fully noted.

Oh I couldnt care less honestly. Even though, by all standard measures, what you said was pretty insulting to a lot of people. I was just trying to help you not think quite so fallaciously. But low and behold, People who think fallaciously provide an opportunity for those who think logically to excell. Think how you want, it still makes no sense. A stigma may exist, does that mean its logical? You're only perpetuating a fallacy that could come back to bite you one day. But you do you. You can bring a horse to the water....

 

[Steege305]

Oh I couldnt care less honestly. Even though, by all standard measures, what you said was pretty insulting to a lot of people. I was just trying to help you not think quite so fallaciously. But low and behold, People who think fallaciously provide an opportunity for those who think logically to excell. Think how you want, it still makes no sense. A stigma may exist, does that mean its logical? You're only perpetuating a fallacy that could come back to bite you one day. But you do you. You can bring a horse to the water....

Bruh, you love the word fallacious.

 

[samwise gamgee]

Oh I couldnt care less honestly. Even though, by all standard measures, what you said was pretty insulting to a lot of people. I was just trying to help you not think quite so fallaciously. But low and behold, People who think fallaciously provide an opportunity for those who think logically to excell. Think how you want, it still makes no sense. A stigma may exist, does that mean its logical? You're only perpetuating a fallacy that could come back to bite you one day. But you do you. You can bring a horse to the water....

The fact is that most PD's don't actually hold this bias personally (everyone knows phenomenal physicians who are DO's/IMG's/FMG's). But as a PD, they fear that recruiting them will make their program appear second rate to applicants who view it as a marker of a weak program.

This leaves programs in a tough spot. Many just do not interview non US-MD's out of hand to avoid it all. The others, well, either they like to recruit great residents from every pool available, or they have no choice. You could paint all of these programs with a broad brush... but then you would be doing the same thing as those that do not bother looking at DO's/IMG's/FMG's, potentially missing out on a great opportunity.

 

[TeslaCoil]

The fact is that most PD's don't actually hold this bias personally (everyone knows phenomenal physicians who are DO's/IMG's/FMG's). But as a PD, they fear that recruiting them will make their program appear second rate to applicants who view it as a marker of a weak program.

This leaves programs in a tough spot. Many just do not interview non US-MD's out of hand to avoid it all. The others, well, either they like to recruit great residents from every pool available, or they have no choice. You could paint all of these programs with a broad brush... but then you would be doing the same thing as those that do not bother looking at DO's/IMG's/FMG's, potentially missing out on a great opportunity.

Lets see here, a top notch program like cleveland clinic accepts a few top-percentile IMG's and people see this as a weakness? Is that what you're trying to say?

 

[TeslaCoil]

...because if thats what you're trying to say. I wont point out again how ******ed that line of thinking is.

 

[misteratoz]

Lets see here, a top notch program like cleveland clinic accepts a few top-percentile IMG's and people see this as a weakness? Is that what you're trying to say?

I agree actually. But many here, including psai actually consider ccf to be a "solidly mid tier program." Also, you can't really say believing the DO stigma is real counts as fallacious thinking when it's factually true.

 

[samwise gamgee]

Lets see here, a top notch program like cleveland clinic accepts a few top-percentile IMG's and people see this as a weakness? Is that what you're trying to say?

Yes, I think that some view it as a sign that the program is weak. Which in the case of a program like CCF, would be an incorrect assumption. But that don't stop them from making it.

 

[samwise gamgee]

I agree actually. But many here, including psai actually consider ccf to be a "solidly mid tier program." Also, you can't really say believing the DO stigma is real counts as fallacious thinking when it's factually true.

I guess the best way to see if this perceived weakness will impact you if you "deign" to attend one of these programs who accept non-US MD's is to look at their fellowship match list. If they match their residents into top teir fellowships, then apparently the people for whom it matters do not share this sense of "stigma" associated with whom they recruit that you may perceive.

 

[misteratoz]

I guess the best way to see if this perceived weakness will impact you if you "deign" to attend one of these programs who accept non-US MD's is to look at their fellowship match list. If they match their residents into top teir fellowships, then apparently the people for whom it matters do not share this sense of "stigma" associated with whom they recruit that you may perceive.

I agree. But I think it's more than just prestige. There are programs that are prestigious and have other advantages like location. The sum total for all these attributes makes a program more or less competitive and able to recruit from a stronger applicatant pool. For example, mayo is prestigious but most people aren't a fan of the location, which makes people rarely talk about it as a world class program here even though it definitely is. Like everything, it's important to take with a grain of salt. In all likelihood it's probably not as important as what place fits your goals.

 

[TeslaCoil]

I agree actually. But many here, including psai actually consider ccf to be a "solidly mid tier program." Also, you can't really say believing the DO stigma is real counts as fallacious thinking when it's factually true.

Im calling the actual stigma fallacious. Which means that anybody who uses it to make sound decisions is also exposing themselves to bad reasoning. Objectively speaking I dont see anybody from any of these programs having trouble finding good jobs. Isnt that what matters after all?

Oh and as for your last comment about selecting from a more prestigious applicant pool- thats exactly why there are some IMG's at top programs. Are you starting to understand? Those IMG's are top percentile of the same pool, what dont you get?