How about starting to talk about our 2017 rank lists?

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Pretty sure that's the first time anyone has ever said that.
Ha! OK I'll qualify my statement.

Family in Indianapolis that my wife would really like to be close to, and Lexington is closest of any program I interviewed at.

Also, Lexington is a 1.5 hr drive from Red River Gorge, and I hope to do as much rock climbing as I can in my free time.

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Loved both of these programs. Due to location Kentucky is higher on my list. PD is so committed to resident education and well-being. Residents all seemed very happy.

UTHSCSA is much farther away from everything and everyone in my life, otherwise it would be much higher on my list. The people there were cool. The Chair seemed very down to earth. I think you do a lot of surgery in intern year though :(

Thanks for all of the input! Appreciate the help.

Any thoughts about Cinci? Loved the program, just not sure what it would be like to live there..
 
Just some food for thought before the rank order list deadline.

For people who are considering "glamorous" places, such as New York City, please-please-please do your research about the costs of living, commute etc. before they hit you in the face. Read the city-data forums and see what the typical rents are, what people like and dislike about the area etc. You can be stuck for 3 years with huge rents or long commutes. Actually, you should do this for any city you are considering.

I have seen a number of times "criteria" like "I didn't care for the surrounding city". That is just the wrong way to approach your training. If the best anesthesia program in the country were in Alaska, that's where you should go. You only get trained once, and it's only for three years. You might get lucky and get a second chance, in a great fellowship, but when the foundation is shoddy, you can build whatever palace you want on top of it. Any place in this country is better than the war zones our military is fighting in. If 18-20 year-olds can do that, so can your little spoiled tushy do this.

Research the program culture. If it's a flip-flop culture and you prefer wearing ties, it's not for you. If it's a research culture and you're a clinical person, it's not for you. If they are all blue, and you are green, it's not for you. Etc. This is like a marriage: you will be the happiest among people with whom you share a lot of values and background.

Do yourself a favor and put a huge emphasis on where their graduates go. Not just some, but most. Check their alumni networks, how active they are. I graduated from a big program, and still nobody posts on the class's Facebook page. There is no mailing list. There is no organized contact list. The community is nonexistent. The best thing you can get from a good residency program is contacts and an alumni network for life. Put programs with active national alumni networks on top; you will thank me later.

Trust insider complaints. There is no smoke without fire. No program is perfect, but when people complain here it usually means that there is rot at the core. Even if most people declare to be happy in that program, it's a Russian roulette. If you happen to be the one the program dislikes for some reason, it's going to feel like a long prison sentence. You want a program that focuses on "no child left behind", because you might be that child, you never know.

Make sure that you like the PD and the chairperson. A fish rots from the head down. As somebody wise once said: first-rate people tend to hire other first-rate people, second-rate people tend to hire third-rate people. So true. Also, if you don't click with the PD, ignore the rest of the program. The PD is your boss, the person who can easily get you in/out of trouble.

If anything feels fishy at the interview, walk away, even if it's the biggest name program in the world. If they are not attractive when they are at their best behavior, imagine what happens after you become their slave. Yes, that's the right word. Once you choose a residency, any problem you have with them will follow you for the rest of your professional life, in every job and license application, and they know it. They will be your masters, and you will be extremely careful to not piss them off.

Spousal consent is important, but please don't choose a bad program over a good one just to keep the other happy. You'll have to live with the consequences of your decision for the rest of your life, both ways, so choose wisely. A loving spouse will come around, but a mediocre program won't get better.
 
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Anyone else changing their mind daily?? I've finally got a little better handle on the first half of my list.

Has anyone had to defer their loans during residency? Or take out more loans? Get help from family? I know my top three are awesome programs (and I would be thrilled to end up at any of them), but I'm having a hard time grappling with the cost of living in some of the places I interviewed.
 
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You know, when I interviewed at UCSF last year, I thought I was just having an off day or bad luck because the PD was asking me weird questions, but after talking with multiple people about their experiences interviewing at UCSF, it turns out the weird interview thing happens to everyone. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Haha I'm glad to know it wasn't just me...

Great list. What didn't you like about Columbia? NYC is a great place to live.
The chair and PD seemed distant and uninterested in resident education. Residents didn't seem happy. I feel like the program relies too much on the Columbia name. Program has subsidized housing, but most residents choose to live in better (and more expensive) areas like UWS. I'm more worried about fit than location or reputation.
 
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Just some food for thought before the rank order list deadline.

For people who are considering "glamorous" places, such as New York City, please-please-please do your research about the costs of living, commute etc. before they hit you in the face. Read the city-data forums and see what the typical rents are, what people like and dislike about the area etc. You can be stuck for 3 years with huge rents or long commutes. Actually, you should do this for any city you are considering.

I have seen a number of times "criteria" like "I didn't care for the surrounding city". That is just the wrong way to approach your training. If the best anesthesia program in the country were in Alaska, that's where you should go. You only get trained once, and it's only for three years. You might get lucky and get a second chance, in a great fellowship, but when the foundation is shoddy, you can build whatever palace you want on top of it. Any place in this country is better than the war zones our military is fighting in. If 18-20 year-olds can do that, so can your little spoiled tushy do this.

Research the program culture. If it's a flip-flop culture and you prefer wearing ties, it's not for you. If it's a research culture and you're a clinical person, it's not for you. If they are all blue, and you are green, it's not for you. Etc. This is like a marriage: you will be the happiest among people with whom you share a lot of values and background.

Do yourself a favor and put a huge emphasis on where their graduates go. Not just some, but most. Check their alumni networks, how active they are. I graduated from a big program, and still nobody posts on the class's Facebook page. There is no mailing list. There is no organized contact list. The community is nonexistent. The best thing you can get from a good residency program is contacts and an alumni network for life. Put programs with active national alumni networks on top; you will thank me later.

Trust insider complaints. There is no smoke without fire. No program is perfect, but when people complain here it usually means that there is rot at the core. Even if most people declare to be happy in that program, it's a Russian roulette. If you happen to be the one the program dislikes for some reason, it's going to feel like a long prison sentence. You want a program that focuses on "no child left behind", because you might be that child, you never know.

Make sure that you like the PD and the chairperson. A fish rots from the head down. As somebody wise once said: first-rate people tend to hire other first-rate people, second-rate people tend to hire third-rate people. So true. Also, if you don't click with the PD, ignore the rest of the program. The PD is your boss, the person who can easily get you in/out of trouble.

If anything feels fishy at the interview, walk away, even if it's the biggest name program in the world. If they are not attractive when they are at their best behavior, imagine what happens after you become their slave. Yes, that's the right word. Once you choose a residency, any problem you have with them will follow you for the rest of your professional life, in every job and license application, and they know it. They will be your masters, and you will be extremely careful to not piss them off.

Spousal consent is important, but please don't choose a bad program over a good one just to keep the other happy. You'll have to live with the consequences of your decision for the rest of your life, both ways, so choose wisely. A loving spouse will come around, but a mediocre program won't get better.
Solid advice, @FFP! Not just for anesthesiology, but in general for other specialties too.
 
Do yourself a favor and put a huge emphasis on where their graduates go. Not just some, but most. Check their alumni networks, how active they are. I graduated from a big program, and still nobody posts on the class's Facebook page. There is no mailing list. There is no organized contact list. The community is nonexistent. The best thing you can get from a good residency program is contacts and an alumni network for life. Put programs with active national alumni networks on top; you will thank me later.

This was my number one guiding factor when I made my list. Residency is a stepping stone to getting a J-O-B, or moving on to fellowship if you decide to prolong the madness for another year. As a residency applicant, you don't have enough information to know if you will actually do a fellowship or not, so keep your options open is my two cents. Go somewhere that will give you a solid foundation either way.
 
Has anyone had to defer their loans during residency? Or take out more loans? Get help from family? I know my top three are awesome programs (and I would be thrilled to end up at any of them), but I'm having a hard time grappling with the cost of living in California or Boston.

Boston is affordable (though barely) if you are single or with a spouse. It starts to get really dicey once you add in kids. I actually ran the math on this (I have 2 kids) and my expenses were slighter greater than my income for the first year which made it a non-starter. Family help would have smoothed things out but I chose not to go down that particular road. There are relocation loans and some physicians loans but again I don't think going down that route is the way to go. I'd focus on cutting expenses.

Can't speak for cali.
 
This was my number one guiding factor when I made my list. Residency is a stepping stone to getting a J-O-B, or moving on to fellowship if you decide to prolong the madness for another year. As a residency applicant, you don't have enough information to know if you will actually do a fellowship or not, so keep your options open is my two cents. Go somewhere that will give you a solid foundation either way.

Do you just look at fellowship match lists to determine where they go? Not a lot of programs give other lists of where people go to practice. Just wondering the best way to assess this.
 
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Just some food for thought before the rank order list deadline.

For people who are considering "glamorous" places, such as New York City, please-please-please do your research about the costs of living, commute etc. before they hit you in the face. Read the city-data forums and see what the typical rents are, what people like and dislike about the area etc. You can be stuck for 3 years with huge rents or long commutes. Actually, you should do this for any city you are considering.

I have seen a number of times "criteria" like "I didn't care for the surrounding city". That is just the wrong way to approach your training. If the best anesthesia program in the country were in Alaska, that's where you should go. You only get trained once, and it's only for three years. You might get lucky and get a second chance, in a great fellowship, but when the foundation is shoddy, you can build whatever palace you want on top of it. Any place in this country is better than the war zones our military is fighting in. If 18-20 year-olds can do that, so can your little spoiled tushy do this.

Research the program culture. If it's a flip-flop culture and you prefer wearing ties, it's not for you. If it's a research culture and you're a clinical person, it's not for you. If they are all blue, and you are green, it's not for you. Etc. This is like a marriage: you will be the happiest among people with whom you share a lot of values and background.

Do yourself a favor and put a huge emphasis on where their graduates go. Not just some, but most. Check their alumni networks, how active they are. I graduated from a big program, and still nobody posts on the class's Facebook page. There is no mailing list. There is no organized contact list. The community is nonexistent. The best thing you can get from a good residency program is contacts and an alumni network for life. Put programs with active national alumni networks on top; you will thank me later.

Trust insider complaints. There is no smoke without fire. No program is perfect, but when people complain here it usually means that there is rot at the core. Even if most people declare to be happy in that program, it's a Russian roulette. If you happen to be the one the program dislikes for some reason, it's going to feel like a long prison sentence. You want a program that focuses on "no child left behind", because you might be that child, you never know.

Make sure that you like the PD and the chairperson. A fish rots from the head down. As somebody wise once said: first-rate people tend to hire other first-rate people, second-rate people tend to hire third-rate people. So true. Also, if you don't click with the PD, ignore the rest of the program. The PD is your boss, the person who can easily get you in/out of trouble.

If anything feels fishy at the interview, walk away, even if it's the biggest name program in the world. If they are not attractive when they are at their best behavior, imagine what happens after you become their slave. Yes, that's the right word. Once you choose a residency, any problem you have with them will follow you for the rest of your professional life, in every job and license application, and they know it. They will be your masters, and you will be extremely careful to not piss them off.

Spousal consent is important, but please don't choose a bad program over a good one just to keep the other happy. You'll have to live with the consequences of your decision for the rest of your life, both ways, so choose wisely. A loving spouse will come around, but a mediocre program won't get better.

That feel when you read a post from someone reputable on SDN and feel compelled to change your rank list after submitting love letters ... smh ...
 
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Its funny how everyone gets the same impressions from the same programs.
 
Can somebody please share their views about the SUNY upstate program?
 
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Anybody wanna give an insiders scoop on UIC (chicago) , Henry Ford (Detroit), Beuamont (suburb of Detroit)?

Seems like there's plenty to say about the top programs, but I didn't interview at those sooo.....


Impressions?
 
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Anybody wanna give an insiders scoop on UIC (chicago) , Henry Ford (Detroit), Beuamont (suburb of Detroit)?

Seems like there's plenty to say about the top programs, but I didn't interview at those sooo.....


Impressions?
Uic wins
Hf will work you. Club Beau is a crna mill.

Plus you get to live in chicago not detroit
 
How important do you think didactics and board prep play a role in residency or is self learning the way to go? Personally in med school I felt like I taught most of the material myself. But it was nice to know to have some sort of solid didactics to fall back on. Thoughts?
 
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Anybody wanna give an insiders scoop on UIC (chicago) , Henry Ford (Detroit), Beuamont (suburb of Detroit)?

Seems like there's plenty to say about the top programs, but I didn't interview at those sooo.....


Impressions?
I actually liked Beaumont a lot. It seems like the residents have a ton of opportunities to do career stuff outside of the OR, never work weekends and they have decent fellowship placement -- someone went to NW for ICU, Cleveland Clinic for ICU/cards a few years back. Ford is going to work you. Didn't interview at UIC.
 
How important do you think didactics and board prep play a role in residency or is self learning the way to go? Personally in med school I felt like I taught most of the material myself. But it was nice to know to have some sort of solid didactics to fall back on. Thoughts?
It's mostly self-learning but that doesn't mean didactics aren't useful.

Good didactics are also a surrogate marker for other things that matter about a program, namely whether there is effort and concern for education and teaching in general, vs using you as a source of labor.
 
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Any comments on the following programs?
Allegheny General Hospital/West Penn
Boston University Medical Center
SUNY Downstate
thanks, greatly appreciated
 
Anyone else changing their mind daily?? I've finally got a little better handle on the first half of my list.

1. Stanford: Great people, great research, so incredibly expensive that I keep trying not to love it

Is it feasible at all to live in NYC on a resident's salary??

It depends.

CA1: Roughly salary + benefits (+/- a few hundred/thousand) as listed on their websites.

U Chicago (Chicago): 52,000
Wash U (StL): 59,000
BWH (Boston): 64,000
Columbia (NYC): 66,000
Stanford (SF): 82,000
 
Hi everyone--

I'm a CA-2 at MGH and happy to answer any questions you have about MGH or the city of Boston. I love the program and think we get kick-ass training, though I'm sure that's true of most places. Boston is expensive but has a lot to offer (and people seem to make it work on a resident's salary - even with kids! - though it is hard).

Good luck with your rank lists! Please feel free to reach out with questions though I know we only have a few days left. Enjoy 4th year!
 
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I disagree with FFP about choosing the "best" place to train you can even if it's in Alaska.

If you move somewhere where you're miserable, you'll be a miserable resident, person, and friend for those 4 years. These are prime years of life you are not getting back.

Go wherever you think you'll wake up everybody morning happy to go to work. You'll learn more and not hate yourself. However you make that decision of what makes you happy, however, is certainly an individual choice.
 
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I disagree with FFP about choosing the "best" place to train you can even if it's in Alaska.

If you move somewhere where you're miserable, you'll be a miserable resident, person, and friend for those 4 years. These are prime years of life you are not getting back.

Go wherever you think you'll wake up everybody morning happy to go to work. You'll learn more and not hate yourself. However you make that decision of what makes you happy, however, is certainly an individual choice.
I'm afraid you are somewhat wrong about this. You will spend 70 hours/week in the hospital, another 55-70 sleeping, another 10 or so commuting and getting ready for work, another 5-10 reading, so it's not like you'll have so much time to enjoy the surroundings (which is not why you are there). You're there because you are supposed to be passionate about anesthesiology and you want to become better at it every day. You're not there for sightseeing, museums, going to the beach, skiing etc. You're there to regret every hour you spend not learning, because they will never come back. Also, for the next 30-40 years, you will reap the benefits of your efforts and sacrifices during your training (or the lack of the latter). Don't make the mistake many of us have made, of looking for a work-life balance during residency, of trying to enjoy life outside the hospital. Those training days never come back, don't waste them. It takes great will and sacrifice to be the ideal hard-working resident, but it's worth it, for your own good.

Again, I am talking about an otherwise fantastic program, which would be hindered only by location. A program that's worth those sacrifices. That's what will make you feel happy to wake up in the morning, not the surroundings. I did my fellowship in a non-touristy place, and I still remember the joy of being there, the spring in my step while walking to the hospital every single morning. It was not just the joy of practicing critical care, but also the joy of working in that hospital, with those people, learning all those things, in that friendly atmosphere. I can tell you that I did not feel that happiness for a good part of my residency, in a much better location. Both places had their pluses and minuses, by the way, but location shouldn't matter much, except for post-residency job leads.

You are also right, surroundings are important, such as a beautiful and modern hospital, maybe with some natural light in the ORs, because that's where you'll spend most of your waking hours. :)

Also, if you care about the "prime years" of your life, you chose the wrong occupation, friend. As a physician, your "prime years" start much-much later, around midlife, if you're lucky. Just wait and see how it is to be somebody's bitch employee, when you become an attending. There is just one thing worse than that: struggling at your job because your training was subpar. Get the best training you can, and everything else will fall into place.
 
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FFP's statements should be modified a little bit. Location DOES matter, if the location hinders your ability or time to learn. If your commute is over an hour each way because of insane traffic (and living closer is prohibitively expensive), then you will have less time every day to study or sleep. If the environment is so malignant or miserable that you cannot focus on your education, then it doesn't matter how crazy the pathology is that you're seeing.

Here are my recommendations to medical students, take it with a grain of salt:
1. Go to a residency near where you want to practice after training.
2. Go to where you fit the best with the staff and other residents, so you can focus on what you're seeing/doing, rather than focusing on how miserable you are because of the asshats around you.
3. Go to where you will see the most insane pathology, so nothing will freak you out.

Another thing to remember, learning doesn't end with residency graduation. New techniques will become mainstream (ultrasound-guided regional and line access are relatively new, periop TEE/TTE is catching on somewhat), and you'll want to pick them up. Your partners may have figured out a different and more effective way of doing things than you were taught. Academia doesn't highly value efficiency, many private groups do.

Sent from my SM-G920V using SDN mobile
 
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I'm afraid you are somewhat wrong about this. You will spend 70 hours/week in the hospital, another 55-70 sleeping, another 10 or so commuting and getting ready for work, another 5-10 reading, so it's not like you'll have so much time to enjoy the surroundings (which is not why you are there). You're there because you are supposed to be passionate about anesthesiology and you want to become better at it every day. You're not there for sightseeing, museums, going to the beach, skiing etc. You're there to regret every hour you spend not learning, because they will never come back. Also, for the next 30-40 years, you will reap the benefits of your efforts and sacrifices during your training (or the lack of the latter). Don't make the mistake many of us have made, of looking for a work-life balance during residency, of trying to enjoy life outside the hospital. Those training days never come back, don't waste them. It takes great will and sacrifice to be the ideal hard-working resident, but it's worth it, for your own good.

Again, I am talking about an otherwise fantastic program, which would be hindered only by location. A program that's worth those sacrifices. That's what will make you feel happy to wake up in the morning, not the surroundings. I did my fellowship in a non-touristy place, and I still remember the joy of being there, the spring in my step while walking to the hospital every single morning. It was not just the joy of practicing critical care, but also the joy of working in that hospital, with those people, learning all those things, in that friendly atmosphere. I can tell you that I did not feel that happiness for a good part of my residency, in a much better location. Both places had their pluses and minuses, by the way, but location shouldn't matter much, except for post-residency job leads.

You are also right, surroundings are important, such as a beautiful and modern hospital, maybe with some natural light in the ORs, because that's where you'll spend most of your waking hours. :)

Also, if you care about the "prime years" of your life, you chose the wrong occupation, friend. As a physician, your "prime years" start much-much later, around midlife, if you're lucky. Just wait and see how it is to be somebody's bitch employee, when you become an attending. There is just one thing worse than that: struggling at your job because your training was subpar. Get the best training you can, and everything else will fall into place.

If an applicant has a chance to go to a fantastic program in BFE, they likely have a chance to go to a fantastic program in a better location.

Also, choosing based on location is completely reasonable when you're comparing similar classes of programs.

55hr/week, 3 minute commute to my hospital, and I love my city. And we're a strong program to boot.

Don't sell your soul to get what you think is the "best training ever". I've learned from many of the posters on this board that the strength of program isn't the be-all end-all; I'm convinced you can become a fantastic anesthesiologist at 50+ programs in this country. And many of those programs are in good locations with reasonable hours.
 
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If an applicant has a chance to go to a fantastic program in BFE, they likely have a chance to go to a fantastic program in a better location.

Also, choosing based on location is completely reasonable when you're comparing similar classes of programs.

55hr/week, 3 minute commute to my hospital, and I love my city. And we're a strong program to boot.

Don't sell your soul to get what you think is the "best training ever". I've learned from many of the posters on this board that the strength of program isn't the be-all end-all; I'm convinced you can become a fantastic anesthesiologist at 50+ programs in this country. And many of those programs are in good locations with reasonable hours.
Friend, please feel free to repeat my mistakes. :)

I don't think there are more than 20 programs that produce a lot of "fantastic" anesthesiologists. They mostly produce average (i.e. good enough) anesthesiologists, some of which will grow further on their own, or during "fantastic" fellowships, which again are not many. Of course, we don't need all to be fantastic (I am definitely not) to do a decent job. But anybody who's passionate about the specialty, or who doesn't want to feel threatened by CRNAs ever, should strive to.

Btw, as a resident, you have a very subjective idea of how good your program is professionally. Only when you graduate and you're out on your own, you get to really see the pluses and minuses, what matters and what doesn't. I would argue that a cushy program could be worse for one's training than a malignant one. Not that I am arguing for either.

All I am saying is that lifestyle and location should not matter a lot for a program that has a proven history of producing outstanding graduates.
 
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Friend, please feel free to repeat my mistakes. :)

I don't think there are more than 20 programs that produce a lot of "fantastic" anesthesiologists. They mostly produce average (i.e. good enough) anesthesiologists, some of which will grow further on their own, or during "fantastic" fellowships, which again are not many. Of course, we don't need all to be fantastic (I am definitely not) to do a decent job. But anybody who's passionate about the specialty, or who doesn't want to feel threatened by CRNAs ever, should strive to.

Btw, as a resident, you have a very subjective idea of how good your program is professionally. Only when you graduate and you're out on your own, you get to really see the pluses and minuses, what matters and what doesn't. I would argue that a cushy program could be worse for one's training than a malignant one. Not that I am arguing for either.

All I am saying is that lifestyle and location should not matter a lot for a program that has a proven history of producing outstanding graduates.

I agree that the # is smaller for programs that produce a lot of "fantastic" anesthesiologists. Still, you can become a fantastic anesthesiologist at plenty more programs than that.

My advice to applicants would still be this: location should absolutely be a significant part of your residency selection equation. And if your last point is really all that you're trying to say, I certainly don't disagree. But why not go after a program with a decent lifestyle and a fine location that has a "proven history of producing outstanding graduates" (plenty exist).

Fair point in regard to a limited POV and subjectivity.
 
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You can also train at a top 3 or top 5 program by reputation and end up being a very average or below average anesthesiologist. It happens more than you think. Uncomfortable with chest cases or aortic cases, bad at lines, bad at regional, bad with babies, etc. don't let it happen to you. The practice you join after training matters a lot.
 
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I would argue that a cushy program could be worse for one's training than a malignant one.


I agree. I think the ideal is hardworking but friendly and supportive. That's how my residency was and how my practice is. Hardworking may feel malignant if you're lazy, but hardworking is not the same as malignant.
 
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I just want to add:

There have been very few interview days I didn't particularly like. I guess I'm not particularly discerning.

The stuff regarding fellowship placement and alumni networks is nearly impossible to find unless someone took notes during interview days. It seems getting top fellowship matches isn't really a huge challenge...
 
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I have a question regarding advanced programs.

So the top of my rank list looks like this right now:

1.) UPenn
2.) Mayo (R)
3.) UMich
4.) Yale
5.) CCF
6.) NYP Columbia

The issue I'm having is that I REALLY would like to match at my number 1 because of location issues. UPenn has an advanced program too. So would it be wise to rank both the categorical and advanced programs 1 and 2 to increase my chances of matching there?

A lot of people have been telling me to avoid doing that because:
1.) I got offered an interview there pretty late so I'm probably a marginal candidate and probably won't match.
2.) The advantage gained by ranking both slots Upenn is not as great as the disadvantage of slotting other programs I liked lower in the match algorithm.

Anyone else have a similar issue? Are advanced spots less competitive than categorical?

My last issue is I only have 3 prelim/transitional interviews, so there's a decent chance I'll have to SOAP for a prelim. Is that something I should weigh heavily?

I don't want to say you're overthinking it (because I am for my own list).....but you are overthinking this one.

It is to your advantage to rank both categorical and advanced at UPenn if that location is that important to you. Doesn't matter if you were a marginal candidate or not. You lose nothing by ranking that program #1 and #2. Rank in order of your true preference regardless of how marginal/competitive of a candidate you were.

Also there is no disadvantage of ranking the other programs lower.
 
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I don't want to say you're overthinking it (because I am for my own list).....but you are overthinking this one.

It is to your advantage to rank both categorical and advanced at UPenn if that location is that important to you. Doesn't matter if you were a marginal candidate or not. You lose nothing by ranking that program #1 and #2. Rank in order of your true preference regardless of how marginal/competitive of a candidate you were.

Also there is no disadvantage of ranking the other programs lower.


I concur with this statement, bigly
 
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I have a question regarding advanced programs.

So the top of my rank list looks like this right now:

1.) UPenn
2.) Mayo (R)
3.) UMich
4.) Yale
5.) CCF
6.) NYP Columbia

The issue I'm having is that I REALLY would like to match at my number 1 because of location issues. UPenn has an advanced program too. So would it be wise to rank both the categorical and advanced programs 1 and 2 to increase my chances of matching there?

A lot of people have been telling me to avoid doing that because:
1.) I got offered an interview there pretty late so I'm probably a marginal candidate and probably won't match.
2.) The advantage gained by ranking both slots Upenn is not as great as the disadvantage of slotting other programs I liked lower in the match algorithm.

Anyone else have a similar issue? Are advanced spots less competitive than categorical?

My last issue is I only have 3 prelim/transitional interviews, so there's a decent chance I'll have to SOAP for a prelim. Is that something I should weigh heavily?

Yes, you don't lose anything by ranking programs higher on your list. If you were high enough on their rank list to get into program A, even if you rank it last, you would still get into that program if you fell to it on your list.

Any reason you moved Columbia/NYU after CCF? Columbia has a much stronger program, ivy league name in a (better location closer to philly in your case). I would go with your gut and don't over think the little things.
 
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My last issue is I only have 3 prelim/transitional interviews, so there's a decent chance I'll have to SOAP for a prelim. Is that something I should weigh heavily?

I only have 3 prelim interviews too. One of them is my home program though. I'm planning on putting mostly advanced programs at the top of my list. You really think the risk of not matching is that high? Yeah, any other people thoughts on this?
 
I only have 3 prelim interviews too. One of them is my home program though. I'm planning on putting mostly advanced programs at the top of my list. You really think the risk of not matching is that high? Yeah, any other people thoughts on this?

I think this depends on the prelim programs. Transitional ones are much harder to match to than medicine than surgery. I do think 3 is a little low. I have about 8 with a couple extra for programs that have their own additional prelim spots.
 
I just want to add:

There have been very few interview days I didn't particularly like. I guess I'm not particularly discerning.

The stuff regarding fellowship placement and alumni networks is nearly impossible to find unless someone took notes during interview days. It seems getting top fellowship matches isn't really a huge challenge...
I have a question regarding advanced programs.

So the top of my rank list looks like this right now:

1.) UPenn
2.) Mayo (R)
3.) UMich
4.) Yale
5.) CCF
6.) NYP Columbia

The issue I'm having is that I REALLY would like to match at my number 1 because of location issues. UPenn has an advanced program too. So would it be wise to rank both the categorical and advanced programs 1 and 2 to increase my chances of matching there?

A lot of people have been telling me to avoid doing that because:
1.) I got offered an interview there pretty late so I'm probably a marginal candidate and probably won't match.
2.) The advantage gained by ranking both slots Upenn is not as great as the disadvantage of slotting other programs I liked lower in the match algorithm.

Anyone else have a similar issue? Are advanced spots less competitive than categorical?

My last issue is I only have 3 prelim/transitional interviews, so there's a decent chance I'll have to SOAP for a prelim. Is that something I should weigh heavily?

The match is designed to work in your favor.

If you are ranked to match at Penn, it does not matter if you rank it dead last on your list. You will still match at Penn assuming you were not RTM at any of the other places on your list.

If it's your favorite, then rank it #1 and 2 for the categorical and advanced. You are not "lowering" your chances at the other programs by ranking them lower. If you were RTM at Michigan and you happen to not match at Penn or Mayo, you will still match at Michigan.

I would not worry about SOAPing into a prelim if you don't match. There are always a decent # of medicine prelims and a lot of surgery prelims open after match. You may not get a cushy prelim year, but if you are willing to sacrifice that to go to Penn, then why not?
 
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Please try to understand the match algorithm. It is set up to favor the applicant.
If you want to go to Penn, rank that 1+2.
If you want to go to Mayo next, rank that 3+4.
etc.

Worry about where your anesthesia training will be. Your prelim year will teach you a lot where ever you go, but is fairly unimportant compared to the anesthesia training location.

I fall in the FFP camp of going to a better program in a worse location if the choice is that discrete for you. You just have to define better for yourself, and realize whatever criteria you are using are probably the dumb idealistic criteria that most med students use to choose things. You will later find out if they were useful.

The prelim year is my exception for the location bit. You can go somewhere comparatively worse to get a better location or life if you like. Try out a new city.
Just make sure you are beat tired and bitter/jaded by the end of it, and you know you chose a good one.


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Yes, you don't lose anything by ranking programs higher on your list. If you were high enough on their rank list to get into program A, even if you rank it last, you would still get into that program if you fell to it on your list.

Any reason you moved Columbia/NYU after CCF? Columbia has a much stronger program, ivy league name in a (better location closer to philly in your case). I would go with your gut and don't over think the little things.

FFP's post along with what many other people have said. Didn't think the leadership was that vested in resident education. PD literally gave a PPT and walked away. Interviews were a bit "edgy." NYC is expensive to live in. Ancillary staff is crap. And I didn't get the sense that the people there were ...happy. I would love ya'll thought on how much that matters.

NYU seemed a bit weaker than CCF and Yale and that's the opinion my professors seemed to have too. The chairman and PD for Yale sat with us in dedicated Q/A session, which was unique in my interviews. CCF also seemed to have a robust program with amazing cases and a great name (despite the naysayers).

And thanks for the replies overall folks. I was pretty dead set on my rank list till I talked to people :(
 
I'm going to be ranking WashU categorical as number 2, but their advanced at number 7. This is simply because I only did one prelim interview in St Louis and the concept of uprooting my family of 5 for intern year, then again a year later for CA 1-3, is far less desirable than going to my 3-6 programs (but more desirable than going to my 7-11 programs).
 
Any thoughts about the University of Vermont? It's a smaller program, and I think it flies under the radar frequently because there hasn't been much posted about it here.

I have UVM right now in the top half of my rank list. The only reservations I have about the program are the 6 months of surgery during intern year and they're not a big transplant center (is transplant experience that important for residency?) Otherwise it seems like an excellent program with a happy team of residents and supportive faculty.
 
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So first of all, why would the algorithm necessarily favor the applicant? I don't have a clear explanation on that. Let me run this hypothetical by you all.

Let's say my top program has not ranked me high enough to match even if it were my top choice. This is possible ONLY if other more highly ranked candidates also chose my top choice as their top choice and the programs fills all its seats. This situation is obviously very possible and in my case, maybe even likely.

There are 2 scenarios given this reality:

Scenario 1: I ranked my top choice as categorical only. The remainder of my list looks the same.
Scenario 2: I ranked my top choice as categorical and advanced filling spots 1 and 2. The rest of my list is bumped down 1.

If I weren't ranked to match, wouldn't scenario 2 screw me worse in the match? Meaning, given that I can't match into my top choice, scenario 1 would offer me an earlier and thus higher chance at matching into the remaining programs than scenario 2 would. This is because (as I understand it) the algorithm has gone through an additional cycle before matching me at my 2nd choice.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I sincerely hope that I am.

No it's not like the NFL draft. There aren't distinct "rounds" (although that would be way more entertaining). The computer is gonna match you at the highest program on your list that also wants you. Doesn't matter if it's your 2 nd, 3rd, or 15th. Stop thinking about the algorithm and rank what you want.
 
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So first of all, why would the algorithm necessarily favor the applicant? I don't have a clear explanation on that. Let me run this hypothetical by you all.

Let's say my top program has not ranked me high enough to match even if it were my top choice. This is possible ONLY if other more highly ranked candidates also chose my top choice as their top choice and the programs fills all its seats. This situation is obviously very possible and in my case, maybe even likely.

There are 2 scenarios given this reality:

Scenario 1: I ranked my top choice as categorical only. The remainder of my list looks the same.
Scenario 2: I ranked my top choice as categorical and advanced filling spots 1 and 2. The rest of my list is bumped down 1.

If I weren't ranked to match, wouldn't scenario 2 screw me worse in the match? Meaning, given that I can't match into my top choice, scenario 1 would offer me an earlier and thus higher chance at matching into the remaining programs than scenario 2 would. This is because (as I understand it) the algorithm has gone through an additional cycle before matching me at my 2nd choice.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I sincerely hope that I am.

You are wrong--you are not penalized in any way by falling to your 2nd or even 16th choice, rather than ranking them higher.

Let's say program X has 10 spots, and they rank you #20 on their list (out of 100 applicants). Let's say 9 of those 20 applicants ahead of you rank the program highly and are matched there. Even if you ranked program X dead last on your list, you will still be able to claim that last spot.

It doesn't matter if, for the first 15 cycles of your application you are unsuccessfully paired with other programs, on the 16 cycle you will cut in front of the other 80 applicants to claim the last spot.

Watch the NRMP video that was posted earlier. You should disregard your likelihood of matching to a program, and only rank them in the order that you truly prefer them.
 
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