How can one consider themself to have a "competitve background"

[lesleeannc]

Hi everyone! After reading some more posts on here I began to wonder to myself... what actually makes one have a competitive background? I have seen a lot of posts by people on here saying they consider themselves to have a competitive background. What makes you seem "above par" to grad schools?
What criteria goes into being able to say this? What GPA does one have to have, how much lab experience (what kind of lab experience as well... are we talking like RA stuff or actually conducting research side by side with a professor) What other stuff are we talking about that makes your chances pretty good?

The reason I ask is because I'm still just a sophomore and I already have my sights set on going back to Minnesota asap. If I could give myself the best the shot at getting into the U of M, what would I have to do?
I'm going to apply to a lot of other schools just so I don't set myself up for disaster but this is my number one pick just so I can be close to my family again... (not to mention its a pretty good school!)
Also, another school in Minneapolis, St. Thomas University has a Psy.D program that is accredited by APA. I had no idea they had this... so Ill be applying to that too. I will also apply to M.A programs in that area as well...

So, to summarize... what can I do to make my application stand out? How can I plan out the next 2 years so that I can at least feel like I have chance?

Oh and p.s... Does G.P.A even matter in fresh and soph years? I have had above a 3.6 for the past 3 semesters but are they even going to take that into account? Have I been killing myself for nothing??

Thanks!

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[cara susanna]

Research interests are really important. Do you know what areas you want to focus on yet? That should be one of the top factors in selecting a program.

 

[psy86]

I think you probably need to do some more research on these programs, and some more thinking about what type of program would best meet your goals. The program at the University of Minnesota is extremely research oriented and is pretty much the polar opposite of a practice-oriented Psy.D. program (or a terminal masters program, for that matter).

To answer your question more directly, for extremely research-oriented programs like the University of Minnesota, it would be good to have:

1. high GRE's (1300+)
2. high GPA with challenging (hard science) classes
3. 2 years full-time RA after undergrad
4. excellent research match with a specific faculty member
5. In order to get #3, you'll likely need to do a bunch of research as an undergrad with a well-connected prof.

 

[erg923]

I would just point out the polar opposite programs you mentioned. The type of people who would be happy and "good matches" for UM would be miserable and would be "poor matches" for the Psy.D program at St Thomas. And vice versa of course. These are pretty polar opposite programs. The UM is HARDCORE research, no doubt. We have a post-doc who just came from UM who made it out in 7 years (about the average there) and had a grand total of 750 clinical hours. Just for a little perspective, I had almost 1500 clinical hours just after my third year.

3 things you can do: (For Ph.D programs)

1. Research, Research, Research. Honors thesis are good to do during your senior year. Even go go to conferences if you can. Let your professors know you are the superstar, so you can network and get outstanding LORs.

2. Yes, cumulative GPA is what they are looking at. The grades in your psych classes are also important. Both should be 3.5+

3. Do well on the GRE.

These allow you to be taken seriously when you apply. But, the real key is MATCH. Being a good fit in a professors lab because your have the same goals, the same research interests etc. The qualitatively elements wil get in in the door, the experiences will get you looked at and considered, and then match is often the final determining factor.

 

[Ollie123]

For starters, the simple fact that you are interested in both a PsyD at St. Thomas and U of M is an enormous red flag. They are basically opposite ends of the spectrum where you have an extremely clinically oriented program and one of the most research oriented programs in the country. I don't know what your career goals are, but one or both schools will likely not have a difficult time picking up that you are a horrendous fit and wouldn't belong there.

Yes, your fresh/soph GPA matters, at least to the extent that GPA matters at all. Getting a 4.0 won't make you stand out by itself, but >3.5, while not absolutely necessary, is pretty much the standard.

Similarly, do well on the GRE. Again, it won't get you in on its own since everyone does well, it will keep doors from closing.

Mostly what matters is your other experiences. If you want to go to U of M, you'll want killer research experience, on honor's thesis, etc. Research experience should not just be "I ran subjects for x" but much, much deeper involvement. St. Thomas will want more clinical experience, but you'll need some research experience for them too.

There's no set plan. The short version is do lots of stuff, do it all well, and focus your experiences on the long-term and not just the now.

 

[lesleeannc]

For starters, the simple fact that you are interested in both a PsyD at St. Thomas and U of M is an enormous red flag. They are basically opposite ends of the spectrum where you have an extremely clinically oriented program and one of the most research oriented programs in the country. I don't know what your career goals are, but one or both schools will likely not have a difficult time picking up that you are a horrendous fit and wouldn't belong there.

Yes, your fresh/soph GPA matters, at least to the extent that GPA matters at all. Getting a 4.0 won't make you stand out by itself, but >3.5, while not absolutely necessary, is pretty much the standard.

Similarly, do well on the GRE. Again, it won't get you in on its own since everyone does well, it will keep doors from closing.

Mostly what matters is your other experiences. If you want to go to U of M, you'll want killer research experience, on honor's thesis, etc. Research experience should not just be "I ran subjects for x" but much, much deeper involvement. St. Thomas will want more clinical experience, but you'll need some research experience for them too.

There's no set plan. The short version is do lots of stuff, do it all well, and focus your experiences on the long-term and not just the now.

In interested in both programs because I've JUST gotten into doing research. Well, I'm not even doing the research, I'm an RA from my 2 professors for this semester and hopefully next semester. I used to say I didn't like research because I had only seen the paper spectrum of it.
They are completely different programs but I'm just a soph. I don't have my exact grad program tailored yet. If you did when you were soph, congrats... but I'm still looking around.

Some areas I am interested in now is working in prisons with either men or women. I know I'm also interested in working with abused kids and teenagers. I'm also very interested in many disorders and would like to be able to do therapy in these areas. I also want to work with soldiers or anyone else for that matter concerning PTSD. Ultimately, I would also like to open up my own practice someday but at the same time I still want to work at a prison, a hospital, etc. These are things I'm interested in right now. I know it sounds more on the Psy.D side but every time I consider doing a Psy.D program, people tell me I'm setting myself up for a lower paying job or maybe not even a job at all as opposed to someone who has a Ph.D. Correct me if I'm wrong this is just what is being feed into my brain.

Also, I am really interested in St. Thomas but their Psy.D is Couseling Psych? Are all of Psy.D's like this? I ask this because when I look at job outlooks and I never see Counseling Psy.D qualifications. I always see Clinical Ph.d and Psy.d never Counseling Psy.D.

Is St. Thomas a competitive school to get into? I know you have to have your M.A first. For St. Thomas, I would need to get clinical experience now right? I would basically need to get a job in this area to get clinical experience right?

Sorry if I have a lot of questions. I guess I'm starting to go through the process of what I want to specialize in and how I will be able to pay my student loan debt off, etc...

 

[Ollie123]

They are completely different programs but I'm just a soph. I don't have my exact grad program tailored yet. If you did when you were soph, congrats... but I'm still looking around.

I certainly did not, but you already said "I'm applying there" which sounded like a commitment above and beyond "Maybe I'll look at that school too when the time comes, but I'm not sure".

I just want to make sure you understood that the #1 thing you need is a good match with both a faculty member and a school. We're trying to help you out with a common mistake many applicants make that costs them admission, no need to get snippy. If your personal statement contained the phrase "I want to open a private practice", you need to realize you will probably have near-zero chance of getting into U of M regardless of your other qualifications. They want to train professors and researchers, not clinicians. Now if you change your mind, and decide you want an academic career, you can't do much better than U of M. I don't know that U of M has faculty who specialize in PTSD (big department though, so there's a good chance they do), if they don't and you want to work with that population, then that also means you're unlikely to even get an interview.

The PsyD process is a little different, many aren't accepted to work with a formal research mentor. In PhD programs, you typically are applying to a lab more than the school. Each professor looks for someone whose research is very complimentary to his own. So even if someone does neuroimaging research with PTSD sufferers, and you want to do treatment research, there's a chance you would not be seen as a close enough match to warrant interviewing regardless of your other qualifications. Of course, if the professors wants to incorporate treatment into future research protocols, then it might be great.

This is why its hard to say what makes someone competitive. It really does depend on the school, the lab, etc. You can be super-competitive for some of the top schools in the country, and rejected outright from some of the bottom schools.

You aren't necessarily setting yourself up for a lower wage with a PsyD. Again, it depends on what you want to do. If its private practice, your income will depend more on your business skills than on your training model.

Not all PsyDs are counseling psych. The delineation between counseling and clinical psych is fuzzy at best though, so its hard to say whether or not that actually matters.

I don't know how competitive St. Thomas is to get into. They seem to have small classes (<20), which is a good thing. On the other hand, their match rate for internship is horrifyingly bad ( <50% get APPIC internships, 20% actually get unfunded internships). So that's a very bad sign.

You don't necessarily need it to be a job to get "clinical experience" - there are some volunteer opportunities in many locations (suicide hotlines are a common one, but there's tons of different routes you can go). Some labs may have undergrads involved in clinical work - more commonly child psych labs since it can be difficult to come across as enough of an authority as an undergrad to do clinical work with adults. With young kids its generally a non-issue.

As for paying off debt - at many programs, you receive a tuition waiver and a stipend for grad school. So at least for grad school, you can have pretty minimal debt if you set yourself up right

 

[JockNerd]

Also, I am really interested in St. Thomas but their Psy.D is Couseling Psych? Are all of Psy.D's like this? I ask this because when I look at job outlooks and I never see Counseling Psy.D qualifications. I always see Clinical Ph.d and Psy.d never Counseling Psy.D.

There are almost no counseling psych PsyD programs. The counseling psych field is in general pretty unwelcoming of the vail model; you can look up a dozen or so articles in Journal of Counseling Psychology and The Counseling Psychologist that emphatically endorse the Boulder model as the appropriate way of training both academicians and clinicians.

 

[psybee]

They are completely different programs but I'm just a soph. I don't have my exact grad program tailored yet. If you did when you were soph, congrats... but I'm still looking around.

the reason everyone remarked on the polar opp. of the programs you mentioned was because in your first post you stated that you wanted to go to U Minn ASAP, but were also considering...completely different programs. no one is implying that they knew everything at your age/stage of the game, but you should know that while you may be looking at Minnesota based programs and think U Minn looks good, it also happens to be a top research program, and people from all over the country who have been doing lots of research and are committed to doing research (who would likely not find psy.d. programs or MA's as viable alternatives if they didn't get in) will be your competition. that's why what you wrote makes it tough to respond to the rest of your question without asking you to clarify your goals:

The reason I ask is because I'm still just a sophomore and I already have my sights set on going back to Minnesota asap. If I could give myself the best the shot at getting into the U of M, what would I have to do?

I'm going to apply to a lot of other schools just so I don't set myself up for disaster but this is my number one pick just so I can be close to my family again... (not to mention its a pretty good school!)
Also, another school in Minneapolis, St. Thomas University has a Psy.D program that is accredited by APA. I had no idea they had this... so Ill be applying to that too. I will also apply to M.A programs in that area as well...

So, to summarize... what can I do to make my application stand out? How can I plan out the next 2 years so that I can at least feel like I have chance?

look, i applied to only east coast schools so i understand the desire to stay in an area, but i'm also 12 years older than you (or more). you may have family stuff that makes it really really important to stay in minn, but if there's any way you can consider opening up your geographic range, please do -- it's really stressful to limit yourself like i did, and it does narrow your chances of being accepted into a good program. in the end i was accepted to all the programs that i was a good fit for (that would have been good fits if they were in different states) and rejected from the ones i didn't fit with, even if i had more research exp and much higher scores than the average accepted applicant. especially to competitive programs, the #1 reason you should want to go there is because you can get the best expereince and training there. location of course is a factor-- we're all human (i think i would melt in florida, for instance, and i can't drive due to a siezure disorder, making certain areas really impractical for me) but it's not a great top reason to apply for a school.

the best thing you can do right now -- is to figure out if you want to do a research oriented phd, do something balanced, psy d, masters level clinician, and explore your clinical and research interests to the best of your ability as an undergrad. that's the first step. without doing that there's nothing we can advise that will help you get into u. minn., because they only accept folks that are committed to the kind of program they offer, and working specifically with their researchers. luckily you're a sophmore, so you have lots of time to do all this!

 

[lesleeannc]

I certainly did not, but you already said "I'm applying there" which sounded like a commitment above and beyond "Maybe I'll look at that school too when the time comes, but I'm not sure".

I just want to make sure you understood that the #1 thing you need is a good match with both a faculty member and a school. We're trying to help you out with a common mistake many applicants make that costs them admission, no need to get snippy. If your personal statement contained the phrase "I want to open a private practice", you need to realize you will probably have near-zero chance of getting into U of M regardless of your other qualifications. They want to train professors and researchers, not clinicians. Now if you change your mind, and decide you want an academic career, you can't do much better than U of M. I don't know that U of M has faculty who specialize in PTSD (big department though, so there's a good chance they do), if they don't and you want to work with that population, then that also means you're unlikely to even get an interview.

The PsyD process is a little different, many aren't accepted to work with a formal research mentor. In PhD programs, you typically are applying to a lab more than the school. Each professor looks for someone whose research is very complimentary to his own. So even if someone does neuroimaging research with PTSD sufferers, and you want to do treatment research, there's a chance you would not be seen as a close enough match to warrant interviewing regardless of your other qualifications. Of course, if the professors wants to incorporate treatment into future research protocols, then it might be great.

This is why its hard to say what makes someone competitive. It really does depend on the school, the lab, etc. You can be super-competitive for some of the top schools in the country, and rejected outright from some of the bottom schools.

You aren't necessarily setting yourself up for a lower wage with a PsyD. Again, it depends on what you want to do. If its private practice, your income will depend more on your business skills than on your training model.

Not all PsyDs are counseling psych. The delineation between counseling and clinical psych is fuzzy at best though, so its hard to say whether or not that actually matters.

I don't know how competitive St. Thomas is to get into. They seem to have small classes (<20), which is a good thing. On the other hand, their match rate for internship is horrifyingly bad ( <50% get APPIC internships, 20% actually get unfunded internships). So that's a very bad sign.

You don't necessarily need it to be a job to get "clinical experience" - there are some volunteer opportunities in many locations (suicide hotlines are a common one, but there's tons of different routes you can go). Some labs may have undergrads involved in clinical work - more commonly child psych labs since it can be difficult to come across as enough of an authority as an undergrad to do clinical work with adults. With young kids its generally a non-issue.

As for paying off debt - at many programs, you receive a tuition waiver and a stipend for grad school. So at least for grad school, you can have pretty minimal debt if you set yourself up right

I didn't mean to get snippy, I apologize. I had just woke up and hadn't had my morning coffee. Anyways, I guess I'm just confused at where I can apply. I don't want to spend my life doing research. I might want to do SOME research that I think would be interesting but I naturally just want to be around people and help them. I want to be able to get experience with schizophrenia, as well as prisoners, as well as maybe children and teens at risk and then start to set up my own practice, someday.
I would like to teach but I that's because I think the learning experience is just as important as research... I don't know if that makes any sense.

I know that I basically need to pick one of these things and focus on that, right? Hypothetically speaking, if I was to say be very interested in schizophrenia... How would one do research with that as an undergrad and then do it for my senior thesis... Is that something that most clinical Ph.D programs looking for? That I specialize in learning everything I can in one area during undergrad and the hope I can find a professor that wants to work with me?

It's not to say I don't want to do research, I do, I just don't want that to be my main thing ya know?

Thanks for all your help so far.

 

[lesleeannc]

look, i applied to only east coast schools so i understand the desire to stay in an area, but i'm also 12 years older than you (or more). you may have family stuff that makes it really really important to stay in minn, but if there's any way you can consider opening up your geographic range, please do -- it's really stressful to limit yourself like i did, and it does narrow your chances of being accepted into a good program. in the end i was accepted to all the programs that i was a good fit for (that would have been good fits if they were in different states) and rejected from the ones i didn't fit with, even if i had more research exp and much higher scores than the average accepted applicant. especially to competitive programs, the #1 reason you should want to go there is because you can get the best expereince and training there. location of course is a factor-- we're all human (i think i would melt in florida, for instance, and i can't drive due to a siezure disorder, making certain areas really impractical for me) but it's not a great top reason to apply for a school.

the best thing you can do right now -- is to figure out if you want to do a research oriented phd, do something balanced, psy d, masters level clinician, and explore your clinical and research interests to the best of your ability as an undergrad. that's the first step. without doing that there's nothing we can advise that will help you get into u. minn., because they only accept folks that are committed to the kind of program they offer, and working specifically with their researchers. luckily you're a sophmore, so you have lots of time to do all this!

I'm actually not in MN anymore. Im in Cleveland, Ohio doing my undergrads. Needless to say, I'm away from my family and I hate it and although I adjusted to a different life in Ohio, I know I want to raise my kids and have my career, etc close to my family. My boyfriend got transferred to a job here so I followed him.
I am going to be applying to colleges in Minnesota, Ohio, Pennslyvania and Illinois.
I've heard a lot of people on here say that you should apply to 12 schools. I have 2 that I can apply to right here, Case Western and Kent University. Then Ohio State University, I think Toledo, Pittsburgh, etc.

I guess I should start to look for a program that best fits me and not what my family or my boyfriend are doing...
I know it sounds stupid to tailor what schools you apply to around the where the people you love are but I guess its kind of a big deal to me.

You are right though, its only adding more stress to be thinking about what schools you can apply to and can't apply to because of their location rather then what schools are my best fit.

Also, you said something about doing something balanced in between Ph.D and Psy.D... what would that be? I've only heard and see doing either or, never something in the middle...

 

[erg923]

Then you would probably not be happy at the UM (or Wisconsin-Madison, Ohio State, Berkley, Indiana, UCLA, etc.). They are indeed clinical programs, and of course you can do clinical work afterwards, but these are research intensive, research driven programs. These are "clinical science" model programs. They want people who want that stuff as careers. You might want to look into the more balanced Boulder-model programs. There are many balanced programs. Use the insider guide to get the rating. It on a 1-7 scale I think. Some pretty "balanced" programs off the top of my head are The University of Louisville, UT southwestern med center-Dallas, St Johns, Auburn, University of Arkansas, University of Kansas. There are many more though.

The resesrch you do as an undergrad does not have to be in the area you might want to explore as a grad student. If you can get the experience with schiz, by all means do it, but it simply might not be available at your university. This is ok. Clinical programs don't really care what kind of research you did as an undergrad, just that you got the experience. And that you learned fundamental elements of research. If you cant find schiz research, but are still dying to get some exposure to it, try getting some experience with it in a clincial situation. Any big inpatient facilities or State Hospitals in your area? As an undergrad I worked as a nurse tech a large state hospital. The sickest of the sick, the vast majority with chronic schiz. I didn't do research there (because I was working in lab at my university), but definitely saw and learned alot about the illness and how it presents.

 

[cara susanna]

Again, research and clinical fit should be the biggest factor in where you apply, not location. It's great that you want to be near your family and I understand that, but programs can tell if you're not in for the reasons that they like (namely, research match).

 

[lesleeannc]

Then you would probably not be happy at the UM (or Wisconsin-Madison, Ohio State, Berkley, Indiana, UCLA, etc.). They are indeed clinical programs, and of course you can do clinical work afterwards, but these are research intensive, research driven programs. These are "clinical science" model programs. They want people who want that stuff as careers. You might want to look into the more balanced Boulder-model programs. There are many balanced programs. Use the insider guide to get the rating. It on a 1-7 scale I think. Some pretty "balanced" programs off the top of my head are The University of Louisville, UT southwestern med center-Dallas, St Johns, Auburn, University of Arkansas, University of Kansas. There are many more though.

The resesrch you do as an undergrad does not have to be in the area you might want to explore as a grad student. If you can get the experience with schiz, by all means do it, but it simply might not be available at your university. This is ok. Clinical programs don't really care what kind of research you did as an undergrad, just that you got the experience. And that you learned fundamental elements of research. If you cant find schiz research, but are still dying to get some exposure to it, try getting some experience with it in a clincial situation. Any big inpatient facilities or State Hospitals in your area? As an undergrad I worked as a nurse tech a large state hospital. The sickest of the sick, the vast majority with chronic schiz. I didn't do research there (because I was working in lab at my university), but definitely saw and learned alot about the illness and how it presents.

What is the Insider's Guide? Maybe a dumb questions but I'm new at all of this!

I don't know about inpatient facilities or State Hospitals, I guess I could Google them and check it out. This semester I'm an RA for my 2 professors (first time, woohoo!) I'm hoping to do a really good job collecting their data for them so that it turns into another semester and maybe a summer thing as well. Someone told me on here to try to do 2 full years of RA.

We're required to do a big research project on our own our senior year so I'm hoping with RA experience, my senior project and anything else I can pick up between now and senior year, I will get a firm grasp of whether or not I do/do not like research. It could just be that I don't know enough about it ya know?

 

[lesleeannc]

Oh, also... It seems like a lot of you on here know a lot about the different grad schools and their programs... The U of M has a Counseling Ph.d program, does anyone know about this? Is this more clinically based or research oriented?

 

[erg923]

...I think it is safe to bet that everything at UM is research based. But, it is probably more clinically friendly than their clincial science program. I am not too sure really. Counseling psych program can be pretty heavy on research focus as well.

You will definantly have to enjoy or be interested in research to be happy in any Ph.D. program. But UM and the other programs I mentioned are just a different breed. Even though you'll get clinical training, you will be "strongly encouraged" to keep it to a relative minimum, and to never let it trump or interfere with research productivity. Their goal is to produce researchers. More balanced programs will be research based as well, but they will not push that agenda on you.

http://www.amazon.com/Insiders-Graduate-Programs-Counseling-Psychology/dp/1593852584

 

[lesleeannc]

Darn Minnesotans.
Either way, I'm starting to understand the difference and I'm slowly getting away from the "I have to apply everywhere so I can get in..."
I do want a balanced program so I'm going to stick with looking for schools that at least have that.

Plus, I found the Insider's Guide on Google for free. Its taught me a lot and I'm on the 5th page!

Thanks for the recommendation!