How can we get universal healthcare in the United States?

[deleted927028]

No, no one here thinks that.

We think that if you have 2 companies selling comparable products, company A can charge $400 all they want but if company B charges $50 then company A either has to lower their price or go out of business.

Honest question: have you taken even a basic economics class before?

I did not formally study economics but have learned a lot. The scenario you are giving will work only when the consumer is not forced to buy. When he is forced to buy , both companies won’t compete with each other but come together to keep the price at $400. We have so many health insurance companies and drug companies in USA, why the competition doesn’t lower the premiums and drug cost compared to other countries? Please explain. Because they gouge the consumers collectively.

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[deleted927028]

I did not formally study economics but have learned a lot. The scenario you are giving will work only when the consumer is not forced to buy. When he is forced to buy , both companies won’t compete with each other but come together to keep the price at $400. We have so many health insurance companies and drug companies in USA, why the competition doesn’t lower the premiums and drug cost compared to other countries? Please explain. Because they gouge the consumers collectively.

Looks like you have studied some economics. If so, please spend some time researching “free market pricing and elasticity of demand and supply “ . Then you will understand what I am trying to say

 

[deleted927028]

Why not? I promise you that a can of tomato soup at the grocery store lasts longer than an EpiPen.

Come on !! Not all good are canned. We have foods with shelf life of few hours, few days to few months. But most of the drugs will last at least two years

 

[deleted927028]

Gonna need a source for that one.



Exactly. So going with the option that doesn’t require some people to fund the lives of others is most prudent.



Swing and a miss. Not a single person here believes that. However we do believe in basic economics.

Please tell me what other welfare we have other than food stamps and medicaid . I am ready to listen.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Please tell me what other welfare we have other than food stamps and medicaid . I am ready to listen.

Seriously? It’s like you know nothing of what you are discussing.

Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Supplemental Security Income, earned income tax credit, and Housing Assistance are all governmental welfare programs. This doesn’t include the entitlement programs such as: Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, and workers compensation.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I did not formally study economics but have learned a lot. The scenario you are giving will work only when the consumer is not forced to buy. When he is forced to buy , both companies won’t compete with each other but come together to keep the price at $400. We have so many health insurance companies and drug companies in USA, why the competition doesn’t lower the premiums and drug cost compared to other countries? Please explain. Because they gouge the consumers collectively.

Really? Consumers aren't required to buy food? Or clothing? I must be missing all the naked, starving people out there.

Drug prices are high because of a lack of competition. Its why generic drugs cost so much less than brand name drugs.

Health insurance is expensive because healthcare is expensive. Why that is the case is complicated and deserves its own thread if you actual care.

 

[deleted927028]

Really? Consumers aren't required to buy food? Or clothing? I must be missing all the naked, starving people out there.

Drug prices are high because of a lack of competition. Its why generic drugs cost so much less than brand name drugs.

Health insurance is expensive because healthcare is expensive. Why that is the case is complicated and deserves its own thread if you actual care.

My question was why it is more expensive for us and not for other countries?

 

[dpmd]

Mind your language you fool. It won’t take much for me to be disrespectful to you. Offer valid counter arguments or shut the hell up.

This is pretty rich considering the tone of your own posts. Perhaps you can follow your own advice.

 

[dpmd]

Why not? I promise you that a can of tomato soup at the grocery store lasts longer than an EpiPen.

And can be stored in a wider range of temperatures and tolerate more rough handling

 

[deleted927028]

Seriously? It’s like you know nothing of what you are discussing.

Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Supplemental Security Income, earned income tax credit, and Housing Assistance are all governmental welfare programs. This doesn’t include the entitlement programs such as: Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, and workers compensation.

I agree with you that earned income tax credit and housing assistance should go away. Social security and Medicare are neither entitlement programs nor welfare programs. They are paid benefits, income tax is not used to fund those at least until now. Social Security would be even more healthier if the republicans did not steal 2.4 trillions from the fund. They haven’t paid it back yet, they may never will.

 

[deleted927028]

This is pretty rich considering the tone of your own posts. Perhaps you can follow your own advice.

I don’t really know what is wrong with my tone, may be I don’t sugarcoat things . I don’t call people names unless I am provoked.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Social security and Medicare are neither entitlement programs nor welfare programs.

They are literally classified as entitlement programs...

Social Security would be even more healthier if the republicans did not steal 2.4 trillions from the fund. They haven’t paid it back yet, they may never will.

Lol. No. Just, no.

Edit: You know medicare and medicaid are different things right?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I agree with you that earned income tax credit and housing assistance should go away. Social security and Medicare are neither entitlement programs nor welfare programs. They are paid benefits, income tax is not used to fund those at least until now. Social Security would be even more healthier if the republicans did not steal 2.4 trillions from the fund. They haven’t paid it back yet, they may never will.

You're wrong.

How is Social Security financed? | Press Office | Social Security Administration

History of Social Security in the United States - Wikipedia

SS has been funded with an income tax since 1939.

How is Medicare funded? | Medicare

Medicare has been funded with a payroll (ie. income) tax since its inception.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

My question was why it is more expensive for us and not for other countries?

Because we're willing to pay more.

If every insurance company tomorrow told Pfizer that they wouldn't pay more than $100 per month of Chantix, you can bet that the price would go down right fast.

And allowing Medicare to negotiate would help, but that would lead to other issues as well.

 

[deleted927028]

They are literally classified as entitlement programs...



Lol. No. Just, no.

Edit: You know medicare and medicaid are different things right?

I am missing your point. Are you suggesting that the republicans did not steal 2.4 trillions from SS? If so, please do some googling, it is true

 

[deleted927028]

Because we're willing to pay more.

If every insurance company tomorrow told Pfizer that they wouldn't pay more than $100 per month of Chantix, you can bet that the price would go down right fast.

And allowing Medicare to negotiate would help, but that would lead to other issues as well.

No friend, no one is willing to pay more. They are paying because they have no other choice. If there is a cheaper option, they will naturally go there.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I am missing your point. Are you suggesting that the republicans did not steal 2.4 trillions from SS? If so, please do some googling, it is true

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-233-vote-steal-social-security/

 

[deleted927028]

You're wrong.

How is Social Security financed? | Press Office | Social Security Administration

History of Social Security in the United States - Wikipedia

SS has been funded with an income tax since 1939.

How is Medicare funded? | Medicare

Medicare has been funded with a payroll (ie. income) tax since its inception.

I thought payroll tax and income tax are different even though we pay them at the same time. But you are saying that they are same

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

No friend, no one is willing to pay more. They are paying because they have no other choice. If there is a cheaper option, they will naturally go there.

It must be hard to be so blatantly wrong so often

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I thought payroll tax and income tax are different even though we pay them at the same time. But you are saying that they are same

They are technically different things but practically speaking they are the same. For example, SS and Medicare payroll taxes stop after a certain income (something like 120k/year). Income tax obviously doesn't. Employers pay a tax on payroll taxes as well but not on income taxes.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

No friend, no one is willing to pay more. They are paying because they have no other choice. If there is a cheaper option, they will naturally go there.

Horse hockey. Why do you think insurance plans cover certain drugs in a class and not others in that same class? Because they go with the drug whose manufacturer gives them the best deal.

 

[deleted927028]

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-233-vote-steal-social-security/

I have seen these kind of articles before as well. Basically what they are saying they issued bonds for the stolen money , so they claim literally they did not steal. Now if SS want to encash the bonds, how the government will generate the 2.4 trillions? They have to either raise the tax or borrow more. But the money that was spent, is already gone. Isn’t it ? I am not an expert, just sharing what I read

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I have seen these kind of articles before as well. Basically what they are saying they issued bonds for the stolen money , so they claim literally they did not steal. Now if SS want to encash the bonds, how the government will generate the 2.4 trillions? They have to either raise the tax or borrow more. But the money that was spent, is already gone. Isn’t it ? I am not an expert, just sharing what I read

What? No. Read the article.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And the "stealing" never happened as the bill didn't pass. On top of that Social Security is already predicted to be insolvent by 2034.

 

[deleted927028]

And the "stealing" never happened as the bill didn't pass. On top of that Social Security is already predicted to be insolvent by 2034.

Please go through this
What Happened to the $2.6 Trillion Social Security Trust Fund?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Please go through this
What Happened to the $2.6 Trillion Social Security Trust Fund?

How does that have anything to do with Republicans stealing money? The bill that inspired that little phrase literally didn't get enough votes to pass. That's a fact. So now your argument is... what exactly?

 

[deleted927028]

How does that have anything to do with Republicans stealing money? The bill that inspired that little phrase literally didn't get enough votes to pass. That's a fact. So now your argument is... what exactly?

This link says that the money was already spent. SS was given bonds in exchange. Please go through the article. Whether the Govt pay back the bonds, nobody knows.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This link says that the money was already spent. SS was given bonds in exchange. Please go through the article. Whether the Govt pay back the bonds, nobody knows.

Yes that article says the money was gone. That in no way means that "republicans stole 2.6 trillion dollars." I'll repeat it again, that myth was perpetuated by a bill that DIDN'T PASS. That article was written when Obama was the president. You are also completely ignoring the fact that SS was predicted to be completely insolvent by 2034 regardless.

On top of all of that, we don't need SS. It's part of the welfare state, get rid of it.

 

[dpmd]

My question was why it is more expensive for us and not for other countries?

For drugs it is because our patent laws don’t have to be followed and you have lots of companies knocking off meds (including some that don't actually put the active ingredient in or some that produce the med in unsanitary conditions).

Healthcare itself is a bit more complicated. Some factors include different ideas on rationing, malpractice laws, regulations on training and provision of care, and numerous other things. Expanding the eligible population for Medicare without increasing premiums to an amount that would likely not be affordable for most would not be financially sustainable without taxing people more (and then we would be paying higher taxes plus paying our insurance premiums)

 

[dpmd]

I don’t call people names unless they disagree with my incorrect grasp of reality.

Fixed that for you.

 

[deleted480308]

Let me be wrong. A drug Epipen whose patent expired decades ago gets sold for $10 in India, $69 in uk and under $100 in Canada, Belgium, France, Netherlands etc, but for $800 in USA. Tell me what is your opinion and solution for this price gouging?

It is the dispensing mechanism and patent that makes it expensive

 

[gyngyn]

I would like to thank those in this thread who have maintained civil discourse. I would like those who have not to improve...now.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Your first line by itself is a proof that you are another Fox News brainwashed neurotic who is incapable of any independent thinking. You are just repeating after Fox News like a parrot. Epipen patent expired many decades ago. When Mylan bought over Epipen in 2007, the Epipen price in USA was $50. Now please educate me which regulation the government passed which caused the price to $800? How come the same company sells Epipen to Canada for $100? They charge $800 BECAUSE THE PUBLIC WILL HAVE TO PAY NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE when their life is in danger. If the politicians passes a bill today to import drugs, the Epipen will sell for $10.

I just don’t understand why people like you are so afraid of regulations. Only criminals will complain about criminal laws. If you do business in an honest way, you need not worry about regulations!!! Just like criminal laws, traffic laws, you need regulations to keep businesses in order. What is wrong about it?

Yeah, so I bolded the part where you support my argument that the government has created regulations preventing a free market and how removing those regulations (ie allowing drugs to be imported) would lower prices.

See you are a capitalist.

 

[deleted480308]

I agree with you that earned income tax credit and housing assistance should go away. Social security and Medicare are neither entitlement programs nor welfare programs. They are paid benefits, income tax is not used to fund those at least until now. Social Security would be even more healthier if the republicans did not steal 2.4 trillions from the fund. They haven’t paid it back yet, they may never will.

As a lot of folks get more out than they put in.....it is a benefit program

 

[Instatewaiter]

To explain in a simple way to you, a farmer cannot sell bananas worth of $2 for $800 like Epipen, because first it is perishable, second the buyer is not in a life threatening situation to pay that kind of money

Any "market" can be manipulated if the government puts restrictions in place that allow this kind of price manipulation. Right now, a Banana farmer could increase the price to $800 but no one would buy it because others will enter the market and offer a banana at a lower price. However, if you add restrictions preventing other people from entering the market, restrictions allowing him to patent part of the peel and finally a non-free market where there was a third party payer system you have the perfect scenario where that banana farmer can charge $800 and no one can do anything about it.

This is literally Econ 101

 

[TJinDaHouse]

Man some ppl just care bout they bottom line. They don’t want you to cut into they profits. It’s scary. I can’t wait until the day we move past money and just help ppl because it’s the right thing to do.

 

[TJinDaHouse]

Which worse analogy you are talking about? Did you read my entire comments on the restaurant analogy? I said we are consuming the resources of the country on a daily basis from the day are born. It is like having dinner at the restaurant. Tax is a bill you pay for consuming the resources and living in a civilized society. If you can’t understand this, I cannot help it. Can you answer this simple question, if you don’t want to pay tax, how do you propose to run the country?

You hit it right on my man. They living in a fairytale. We gonna run a country with no money.

They say roads need a usage fee. Who here don’t go to the doctor when they sick? I guarantee you’ll go at least once, when you bout to die.

And you consent to taxes by living here. If you moved outside the country you would no longer be consenting to the taxes.

 

[TJinDaHouse]

And yet, more deaths are cause my handguns every year than automatic rifles and assault weapons in domestic America. Tyranny is a real threat even in modern society. I do not own guns but completely understand and respect the need for them.

I ain’t even gonna get into this with you. Let’s focus on the main topic. Or you can DM me

 

[dpmd]

You hit it right on my man. They living in a fairytale. We gonna run a country with no money.

They say roads need a usage fee. Who here don’t go to the doctor when they sick? I guarantee you’ll go at least once, when you bout to die.

And you consent to taxes by living here. If you moved outside the country you would no longer be consenting to the taxes.

You can't even avoid taxes by moving. There is an exit tax or you keep being subject to us tax laws.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Man some ppl just care bout they bottom line. They don’t want you to cut into they profits. It’s scary. I can’t wait until the day we move past money and just help ppl because it’s the right thing to do.

No. I care that I am working my butt off and you want people to ride my effort to a free handout. I do my own charity donation through time and money, I don't need the government taking it from me by force. Don't pretend like stealing from me and then giving what was taken to someone else somehow makes someone a noble person. Don't hand me a cowpie and try to tell me it's banana cream.

We gonna run a country with no money.

No. Our country has money. We don't need a welfare state, and we don't need to force some citizens to fund the lives of others.

Somehow many in this country have let themselves be convinced that people who have lots of things are bad people and that they don't deserve it so they need some of their wealth taken away.

 

[dpmd]

Man some ppl just care bout they bottom line. They don’t want you to cut into they profits. It’s scary. I can’t wait until the day we move past money and just help ppl because it’s the right thing to do.

No, we don't want the system to collapse and then no one gets what they need like in Venezuela or north Korea. Turns out when the government tries to provide everything it doesn't work out so well.

 

[TJinDaHouse]

No. I care that I am working my butt off and you want people to ride my effort to a free handout. I do my own charity donation through time and money, I don't need the government taking it from me by force. Don't pretend like stealing from me and then giving what was taken to someone else somehow makes someone a noble person. Don't hand me a cowpie and try to tell me it's banana cream.


No. Our country has money. We don't need a welfare state, and we don't need to force some citizens to fund the lives of others.

Somehow many in this country have let themselves be convinced that people who have lots of things are bad people and that they don't deserve it so they need some of their wealth taken away.

No they not bad ppl, but they didn’t make that wealth for themselves. Nobody make it on they own. They just gotta pay they fair share, not about being good or bad. Taxes not a punishment, it’s just your duty.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

but they didn’t make that wealth for themselves.

Oh? And who did it for them? This is often a cop out that people tell themselves instead of recognizing that there are lots of people that are simply smarter and harder working than them. Makes it easier to feel entitled to someone else's things when you convince yourself that they didn't make it themselves so they don't deserve it.

Yes some people start off farther back than others, yet we have numerous examples of people who get themselves out of crappy situations and are very successful.

They just gotta pay they fair share

You keep saying this. What qualifies to you as "fair share?" All of us have agreed that taxes for things like roads and such are ok. "Fair share" in no way means that someone needs to pay for someone else. That scenario is actually the opposite of what you are saying because then someone isn't paying anything but are receiving what someone else pays. That is wrong.

Taxes not a punishment, it’s just your duty.

Depends on the taxes. Taxes that pay for things that I use like roads? You bet. Taxes on my income that are then used to pay for someone else's welfare? Nope.

It is immoral to steal what belongs to someone and then give it to someone else. Someone's need for something does not give them a right to someone else's stuff.

 

[TJinDaHouse]

Oh? And who did it for them? This is often a cop out that people tell themselves instead of recognizing that there are lots of people that are simply smarter and harder working than them. Makes it easier to feel entitled to someone else's things when you convince yourself that they didn't make it themselves so they don't deserve it.

Yes some people start off farther back than others, yet we have numerous examples of people who get themselves out of crappy situations and are very successful.



You keep saying this. What qualifies to you as "fair share?" All of us have agreed that taxes for things like roads and such are ok. "Fair share" in no way means that someone needs to pay for someone else. That scenario is actually the opposite of what you are saying because then someone isn't paying anything but are receiving what someone else pays. That is wrong.



Depends on the taxes. Taxes that pay for things that I use like roads? You bet. Taxes on my income that are then used to pay for someone else's welfare? Nope.

It is immoral to steal what belongs to someone and then give it to someone else. Someone's need for something does not give them a right to someone else's stuff.

Oh? And who did it for them? This is often a cop out that people tell themselves instead of recognizing that there are lots of people that are simply smarter and harder working than them. Makes it easier to feel entitled to someone else's things when you convince yourself that they didn't make it themselves so they don't deserve it.

Yes some people start off farther back than others, yet we have numerous examples of people who get themselves out of crappy situations and are very successful.



You keep saying this. What qualifies to you as "fair share?" All of us have agreed that taxes for things like roads and such are ok. "Fair share" in no way means that someone needs to pay for someone else. That scenario is actually the opposite of what you are saying because then someone isn't paying anything but are receiving what someone else pays. That is wrong.



Depends on the taxes. Taxes that pay for things that I use like roads? You bet. Taxes on my income that are then used to pay for someone else's welfare? Nope.

It is immoral to steal what belongs to someone and then give it to someone else. Someone's need for something does not give them a right to someone else's stuff.

it a group effort. Humans are social creatures. For instance, you might be a doctor, but where would you be without all of them teachers showing you the way when you was little?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

it a group effort. Humans are social creatures. For instance, you might be a doctor, but where would you be without all of them teachers showing you the way when you was little?

I'm not quite sure how this has anything to do with the government taking someone's things so they can go give it to someone else.

 

[sunshinefl]

it a group effort. Humans are social creatures. For instance, you might be a doctor, but where would you be without all of them teachers showing you the way when you was little?

Okay.... pretty sure they were being compensated.

 

[Gurby]

My question was why it is more expensive for us and not for other countries?

Last term I had a small group session lead by an ICU doc from the UK. We had a clinical vignette with an end-stage COPDer admitted to the ICU for pneumonia or something. We intubated them, gave them all the drugs, took heroic measures, saved their life, everyone lived happily ever after.

The UK doc was like, know what we would do for this patient across the pond? .... give them some morphine and send to hospice.

 

[deleted480308]

No they not bad ppl, but they didn’t make that wealth for themselves. Nobody make it on they own. They just gotta pay they fair share, not about being good or bad. Taxes not a punishment, it’s just your duty.

You can’t sell that when half the people don’t pay federal income tax

The parts of govt you are defending are simply redistribution

 

[TJinDaHouse]

Okay.... pretty sure they were being compensated.

Yeah but teachers make like what? Pennies. And they do it because they love the kids. We need to help em out. Churches get tax breaks why not help out teachers and other low paid people too?

 

[deleted480308]

Okay.... pretty sure they were being compensated.

Some of them not enough and many FAR too much