I can't beleive what this idiot said

[No Imagination]

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Ok, not really - I know its late, and I probably should have posted this in the morning but:

We seem to have a lot of active people bored on SDN while we wait for our answers for vet school. Instead of trolling random threads, is anyone interested in debating some aspect of vet medicine?

Talking about good debate, no attached emotions. This is my favorite way learn - and there are some ridiculously smart people here that I can learn from - hell, i'll even play devils advocate if I must.

So, if anyone is interested, pick a topic - It can be organic, topic can change over time if there is interest.

The two that come to mind are: The closing of the 3 Horse Slaughter Plants in the US (I cannot for the life of me understand why they did that)

and Prop 2 in California (AVMA says they are against it, but there reasonings seem to be about financial issues, perhaps lobby based?)

But it could be about anything -

You guys know verdict is still out on Prions? Everyone gets ready for the big BSE question, but there is a lot of debate about whether or not BSE came from Scrapies. Never been able to duplicate transmission via ingestion of purified prp. Hell, even the prion people are starting to second guess the causation/correlation effect.

This might also be good for people getting ready for their interviews. Maybe its a dumb idea - if it works, and we do this, lets keep emotions out of it and have a good time.

 

[nyanko]

You guys know verdict is still out on Prions? Everyone gets ready for the big BSE question, but there is a lot of debate about whether or not BSE came from Scrapies. Never been able to duplicate transmission via ingestion of purified prp. Hell, even the prion people are starting to second guess the causation/correlation effect.

What do you mean by verdict is still out? I have seen a few studies that discuss the conversion of native prion protein isoforms into the infectious misfolded ones on exposure. Are you only talking about the origin of the disease in cows, or is it a question of the actual transmission?

 

[EqSci]

The closing of the 3 Horse Slaughter Plants in the US (I cannot for the life of me understand why they did that)

Because who would not vote for a bill entitled "Anti-Horse Cruelty Act"?? It all comes down to public education. Unfortunately, those that 'educated' the public on this matter happened to be the bleeding hearts that never stopped to consider the ramifications of saving all the pretty horsies from death! 🙄 It's a battle because it's pretty difficult to convince people that slaughter is a necessary - and I'll go so far as to say good - thing when it holds such a negative connotation.

I think those actually INVOLVED in the horse industry are really starting to step up and shout louder, though. Did you hear about the privately owned slaughter plant that's trying to open in Montana/Wyoming/somewhere out there? (displaying my embarrassing lack of US geography knowledge 😳)

 

[StayingHopeful]

I don't know a lot about horse care or medicine, but I was curious how people felt about the Horse Slaughter Prevention Act. I did research on it out of interest before my previous interview and I didn't really understand the logic - other than all the images about the poor conditions they are transported/kept in before they are slaughtered being convincing to the general public. We do this to cattle, so are horses only different because more people with a voice and power own horses they love/d? This seems similar to the issue of castration with (horses) or without (cattle) meds.
I would love to learn more about this so if you understand more, please teach me~ thank you!
🙂

 

[StayingHopeful]

About Prop 2 - I had also head that the AVMA was against it, but from what I was told, it sounded like that was because it is too vague and doesn't get enough done while seeming to fix the problem.
Any thoughts anyone?

 

[No Imagination]

I'm not going to touch the closing of the horse slaughter plants, because I too have no idea what the rationale was, besides what EqSci said. My only thoughts on it are the beef people. Horse meat is not tarifed, and BSE is causing horse meat demand and prices to skyrocket in Japan and Europe, so I've read suggestions that the beef lobbiests actually pushed for the closings to protect their bottom line. Not sure if thats true, but at least I can follow that rationale.

I'm hoping someone here comes out FOR the closings... Guess we will see.

What do you mean by verdict is still out? I have seen a few studies that discuss the conversion of native prion protein isoforms into the infectious misfolded ones on exposure. Are you only talking about the origin of the disease in cows, or is it a question of the actual transmission?

Well, there is finally some applied reason to start funding protein folding work again, matter thats dear to me!

I can't believe how bad the internet is at this topic. I have a review paper that claims the slow/tiny virus hypothesis from 2008 but its in the lab, ill link it when I get in. Certainly there is still debate on the matter, but iirc, the issue arises from the fact that purified prions have not been able to transmit disease in vivo (or perhaps it was recombinant PrPsc not causing infection) - Since I can't find the source, I am going to have to call Bull**** on my previous statement. Hopefully when I get in I can find more then that one paper. Sorry for now 🙁

 

[No Imagination]

Yeah, so in lab now, reread the paper - not even going to bother playing devil’s advocate on this one. Guy who wrote the paper def. has a chip on his shoulder.

There are certainly plenty of other theories out there (Lysomal storage def., OrganoPhosphates, Autoimmnue...), but the strongest evidence by far is PrPsc.

I didn’t do my due diligence - I read a 2008 review paper, that I am not going to promote here, that cited a 2001 and 2002 AAAS Science report (cited it as a peer reviewed paper, not news report).

Well, the review took snippets of the report, and presented them out of context. Also, there was apparently a huge mess up at some UK lab, which called into question a lot of the results concerning BSE transmittance from Scrapies (they were working with wrong brain tissue). Anyway, those questionable experiments were all revalidated (least most of them).

My PoS review paper just talked about the original mix up. I really should have gone to the original Science paper, but didn't until now (not my research, just fun - but still embarrassing).

Glad they didn’t ask me about TSE on my interviews

 

[pyxystyx]

Horse slaughter- not going to preten i know anything about that...

Prop. 2- I believe the conflicting AVMA/CVMA stances is pretty representative if the veterinary population, as in, you'll find people for and against for varying reasons, and I don't think the biggest factor here is cost.
People for, obviously, are taking the animal rights/animal cruelty angle. Those agains, (like most of my professors and friends) argue that the proposition is too vague and has negative implications for other areas of animal production (farrowing crates, veal production, etc.) that could have a negative impact on animal welfare... just a thought.

As far as BSE... I was unaware of the controversy! We have been taught at my school that, no question, it originated from scrapies-infected meat ingestion... I'm excited to learn more from all you smarties on this one. 🙂

 

[StayingHopeful]

Those agains, (like most of my professors and friends) argue that the proposition is too vague and has negative implications for other areas of animal production (farrowing crates, veal production, etc.) that could have a negative impact on animal welfare... just a thought.

pyxystyx - Can you explain this more? I haven't heard this side, so I'm curious.
Thank you!

 

[BR549]

A girl in my public speaking class actually gave a speech on horse slaughter houses closing in the U.S. and why it is good. She said that, in the U.S., the plants hit them in the head with a sledge hammer!🙄 I've never heard of that. I asked her if she meant an electrode (that's what's used in cattle slaughter).

Personally, I'd rather a horse be slaughtered in the U.S. where there are specifications on how they are to be treated and slaughtered, than them being slaughtered in Mexico where the gov't doesn't regulate how the animals are handeled and slaughtered. That's just me, though.

 

[EqSci]

We do this to cattle, so are horses only different because more people with a voice and power own horses they love/d?

Actually, it's the horse people that are for slaughter plants, because we see first hand what happens when you don't have them. It's the general public's opinion of horses that got them closed in the first place (as far as I've heard - I don't know about any hidden agendas or such). People just see cows and pigs as food animals and horses as pets. It's a culture thing, they don't like the thought of horses going for slaughter. Which, don't get me wrong, I would love a world where every horse had a home and was loved and was humanely euthanized at an old age, but that just is never going to happen. Currently there is no good alternative to horse slaughter.

It's all PETA bullcrap - ban as much stuff as possible without thinking about what will happen when you ban it. And it's usually the animals that suffer. In this case, the horses are suffering without a doubt. And they are suffering horribly.

I'd also like to see someone here that's against horse slaughter... but beware, it get to be a VERY heated topic among horse people. 😱 😛

 

[BR549]

This may be a dumb questiton, but could somebody post what Prop. 2 in California is.😕

 

[nyanko]

Glad they didn’t ask me about TSE on my interviews

Haha, the reason I was asking, actually, is because it wasn't the first time I had heard such. In an animal science seminar about genetic engineering in meat cattle last quarter, a guy from Britain came over and was talking about BSE and other TSE's and their relationship with genetics, and he seemed to be in the "doubting prions" camp, honestly. I had a bit of a lively discussion with him about it at the end of his presentation.

He sent me a paper afterwards but the link to it on the UK's DEFRA site is down. Wish I would have saved it. 🙄

 

[EqSci]

A girl in my public speaking class actually gave a speech on horse slaughter houses closing in the U.S. and why it is good. She said that, in the U.S., the plants hit them in the head with a sledge hammer!🙄 I've never heard of that. I asked her if she meant an electrode (that's what's used in cattle slaughter).

Personally, I'd rather a horse be slaughtered in the U.S. where there are specifications on how they are to be treated and slaughtered, than them being slaughtered in Mexico where the gov't doesn't regulate how the animals are handeled and slaughtered. That's just me, though.

Exactly. In Mexico there ARE no regulations, so now instead of the horses being sold at auction and humanely euth'd soon after, they are made to suffer for days or weeks while transported into Mexico or Canada, where they meet a very inhumane death. You don't even want to hear what Mexico does to kill the horses.

And yes, there probably were instances in the US where the horse did not have the greatest death - no system is perfect. But then fix the problem by enforcing stricter regulations instead of just closing the whole plant altogether!

 

[StayingHopeful]

well put!

 

[JulieB361]

BR459 you can read about prop 2 here:

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/california_proposition2.asp

 

[hizarlow]

I have asked many doctors about AVMA being against prop 2.

While on my interview, during the question back part I asked it again, and found one of my interviewers was very interested in the topic.

this interviewer is a large animal vet, and said that the AVMA is for the humane treatment of animals, and wanted that to be known first.

He then said that americans are so far removed from the farm they have lost knowlege of what goes on there. That and groing anthropormorphism with pets has spread to all animals. So we see a chicken in a small coupe and think, we wouldn't want to be there, so the chicken must not want to be there either.

The point of all this is that there is no scientific back up to any of it. There was no research done and it was sold to the amercian people as an anti-cruelty act, but the results of which are really unknown. (except for the rising cost of eggs)

That is what I was told by someone in the know.

 

[pyxystyx]

StayingHopeful, the AVMA website explains it pretty well- but basically, a lot of the talk about Prop. 2 to the public was about chickens being in wire cages and adding on 1 cent to the price of every egg and bla bla bla... but most people don't know that, taken literally I believe, it outlaws farrowing crates and veal enclosures as we know them as well, because the animals cannot "lie down, turn arount, stand up and sit down" is I think the verbage it uses. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
Most voters I talked to thought it was only about chicken enclosures, because that's all the media covered. Nevermind that the average voter hasn't even heard of a farrowing crate or thought about where their veal comes from... and you have a lot of people in California who are voting based on "animal rights" views. And who in liberal CA is going to vote down an animal rights bill? ...That's why it passed.

 

[No Imagination]

As far as BSE... I was unaware of the controversy! We have been taught at my school that, no question, it originated from scrapies-infected meat ingestion... I'm excited to learn more from all you smarties on this one. 🙂

Well, i'm afraid to address this issue any more, but i'm sure I will be corrected quickly if I am wrong.

As far as I know, we are talking about epidemiology here. While I think it is a rather safe bet to say Scrapies and BSE (Damn, cant we call Scrapies CSE or SSE or something?!) are caused by the same agent, its not as clear cut that Scrapies caused BSE. I mean, we have CFJ, and its transmittable to other humans (Kuru/vCFJ) - Not to mention the Insomnia version (see blurb at bottom). Why couldn't cows have developed the same mutation then passed it on? Why don't we get "Mad Sheep Disease" from ingesting Scrapie infected sheep? We know cows can pass BSE to other cows, why do we need the sheep link?

Im making a mountain out of a mole hill here, I know. But I wouldn't say the issue has been solved - more like a strong working theory. All this evidence might be enough if it was a virus, but lets be fair. Were talking about a new form of transmittable- replicative agent. The only biological one ever reported or suggested afaik that doesn't require nucleic acids.

Also, please correct me if I am wrong, but are there any other Inheritable genetics disorders (like CFJ) that is transmittable horizontally like TSE? I think there is a lot more to this story - (I like the "PrP protein is carring a bit of DNA/RNA like a Ribosome hypothesis", even if the evidence isn't completely on my side 🙂

BTW, this is from Wiki (Fatal familial insomnia) - This has to be the worst way to die (Sleeping pills apparently have no effect, and I believe you die due to lack of sleep (and holes in your brain):

The disease has four stages, taking 7 to 18 months to run its course:
The patient suffers increasing insomnia, resulting in panic attacks, paranoia, and phobias. This stage lasts for about four months.
Hallucinations and panic attacks become noticeable, continuing for about five months.
Complete inability to sleep is followed by rapid loss of weight. This lasts for about three months.
Dementia, where the patient becomes unresponsive or mute over the course of six months. This is the final progression of the disease, and the patient will subsequently die.

 

[jglovicz]

About the horse slaughter act...I know horse people that aren't educated about the topic-certainly the public will not be aware of the pros and cons. Horses are pets, and therefore these people don't want them slaughtered. I was having this conversation with a girl at my barn. To me the biggest problem about this ban is that people do not have an "out" with horses. There are "wild" horse herds in kentucky and a lot of the western states. People don't want/cant afford their horses and just let them loose. Now tell me that is more humane for a domestic horse to starve to death than it is to simply shock them and slaughter them. People just don't think about the negatives of having all these "unwanted" horses...this girl hadn't considered reasons that slaughter would be beneficial. I think that's how a lot of the public is.

 

[EqSci]

The big question is, where are all the people that banned slaughter now, when there are thousands upon thousands of homeless, starving, neglected horses with nowhere to go?

It just could not have come at a worse time. With the economy the way it is, many people are being forced to give up their pets. Horses are hit hard because not only are they expensive to begin with, but now you have increasing costs of grain (corn) and hay (fuel to make and transport hay) and people just can't come up with the money to feed their animals. So what happens when they can't afford euthanasia (which, BTW, is very expensive for a horse because in most places it is illegal to bury them and you need to pay to have them hauled away)? When the slaughter plants were open, people would sell their horses at auction and get a few hundred dollars for them. There was a bottom to the market, an outlet for unwanted horses. Horses were sent for slaughter instead of slowly starving to death.

Now, you can't GIVE horses away. You need to lock your trailer when it's at an auction - not for fear of your horses being stolen, but because people will ADD horses to your trailer. There are thousands of horses all over the internet trying to find new homes, someone that can afford to feed them or at least afford to humanely euth them.

There is simply nowhere for these animals to go, even if an owner is desperately trying to do the right thing. What do you do when you can't feed an animal, you can't afford to humanely euth it, and you can't get rid of it either??

I'm praying that this private slaughter house becomes a reality. The Unwanted Horse Coalition and AAEP are doing their best to help (offering free vacc's for approved rescue horses) but it's going to take so much more than any one group can possibly do.

 

[EqSci]

As far as educating people, I think the word is slowly getting out. I talk about it to everyone I know, and I'm doing a speech on it for one of my classes. It's been discussed in all the horse forums I frequent, and the majority are for horse slaughter. Every person I've ever met who is actually involved in the industry (not just a recreational rider) is for horse slaughter. It takes time, but I think people are slowly starting to realize the truth.

 

[BigGreenVet]

Well, i'm afraid to address this issue any more, but i'm sure I will be corrected quickly if I am wrong.

As far as I know, we are talking about epidemiology here. While I think it is a rather safe bet to say Scrapies and BSE (Damn, cant we call Scrapies CSE or SSE or something?!) are caused by the same agent, its not as clear cut that Scrapies caused BSE. I mean, we have CFJ, and its transmittable to other humans (Kuru/vCFJ) - Not to mention the Insomnia version (see blurb at bottom). Why couldn't cows have developed the same mutation then passed it on? Why don't we get "Mad Sheep Disease" from ingesting Scrapie infected sheep? We know cows can pass BSE to other cows, why do we need the sheep link?

Im making a mountain out of a mole hill here, I know. But I wouldn't say the issue has been solved - more like a strong working theory. All this evidence might be enough if it was a virus, but lets be fair. Were talking about a new form of transmittable- replicative agent. The only biological one ever reported or suggested afaik that doesn't require nucleic acids.

Also, please correct me if I am wrong, but are there any other Inheritable genetics disorders (like CFJ) that is transmittable horizontally like TSE? I think there is a lot more to this story - (I like the "PrP protein is carring a bit of DNA/RNA like a Ribosome hypothesis", even if the evidence isn't completely on my side 🙂

I am actually in a lab that works with prions (not PrP, model yeast prions)... so I know a bit on the subject.

As far as inter-species transmission goes, there are species barriers. These are caused by differential folding of PrP when it's in the prion state and differential sequences of homologous PrP. To make that semi-understandable: It folds one way in sheep, and that conformation is self-templating - it propagates its own conformation by altering other PrP monomers. The human PrP sequence isn't compatible with the way that the sheep PrP likes to fold, so sheep PrP prions can't infect humans. Hence no "Mad Sheep Disease."

There are certainly genetic mutations that predispose PrP to acquiring the prion conformation, either spontaneously or by exposure.

 

[No Imagination]

I am actually in a lab that works with prions (not PrP, model yeast prions)... so I know a bit on the subject.

As far as inter-species transmission goes, there are species barriers. These are caused by differential folding of PrP when it's in the prion state and differential sequences of homologous PrP. To make that semi-understandable: It folds one way in sheep, and that conformation is self-templating - it propagates its own conformation by altering other PrP monomers. The human PrP sequence isn't compatible with the way that the sheep PrP likes to fold, so sheep PrP prions can't infect humans. Hence no "Mad Sheep Disease."

There are certainly genetic mutations that predispose PrP to acquiring the prion conformation, either spontaneously or by exposure.

That opens up so many questions: What determines what a PrP protein is? Is it amino acid sequence? Is it a gene product? Is it function (doubt it, dont think we know what the function of PrPc is), is it structural homology?

To say that caprine PrPsc can misfold bovine PrPc which can misfold Human PrPc is fine, but im troubled that Caprine PrPsc can also misfold mice and hamsters, but not humans - i think you hit the nail on the head when you said there is/are genetic or even environmental factors in play.

Thanks for that BigGreen

 

[CatVet2Be]

That and groing anthropormorphism with pets has spread to all animals. So we see a chicken in a small coupe and think, we wouldn't want to be there, so the chicken must not want to be there either.

Rising costs aside I just don't see how anyone could be against a proposition that intends to give more humane treatment to animals. From my understanding the chickens were housed in crates so small and packed that they couldn't ever stretch out their wings. Pigs could never turn around and veal could never stand up. I don't think anyone needs scientific evidence to understand that these conditions are physically uncomfortable and even painful. I'm not thinking about emotional states or psyche since those are debatable and subjective but from a physiological stand point we can't deny that these animals are capable of feeling discomfort and pain.

I'm really interested in hearing from someone who was against prop 2 for reasons other than finances and why they think this proposition may not help the situations animals are kept in.

I haven't seen the conditions first hand but from what I've read and seen in pictures and video, it seems to me that we have a long way to go in treating our food animals more humanely. I don't mean coddling them and buying them fluffy beds to sleep in (can you imagine finding a cow sized dog bed, haha 😱) but simply making their lives reasonably comfortable before we eat them.

 

[nyanko]

I am actually in a lab that works with prions (not PrP, model yeast prions)... so I know a bit on the subject.

As far as inter-species transmission goes, there are species barriers. These are caused by differential folding of PrP when it's in the prion state and differential sequences of homologous PrP. To make that semi-understandable: It folds one way in sheep, and that conformation is self-templating - it propagates its own conformation by altering other PrP monomers. The human PrP sequence isn't compatible with the way that the sheep PrP likes to fold, so sheep PrP prions can't infect humans. Hence no "Mad Sheep Disease."

There are certainly genetic mutations that predispose PrP to acquiring the prion conformation, either spontaneously or by exposure.

I've heard this about predisposition to aberrant PrP as well, though the evidence is still not quite at the point where we can say for sure - polymorphisms have been identified but no one mutation was present in a significant number of those affected - so it's difficult to say if there's a real effect or it's just due to factors like population stratification and drift. A lot of times when something affects one person or animal differently from another the default assumption is that "there is a genetic component" which may be true, but this is sort of different from "there is a hereditary component."

I've also heard of the "carrier" theory for misfolded prion proteins, where a particular misfolding will propagate in a different species without actually causing disease, and eventually since it's essentially "free to replicate" in this case, there could be more time/room for error and other misfoldings which may eventually cause harm to the species, or provide a different "strain" that can affect a different one.

 

[BR549]

The biggest problem facing Veterinary medicine and animals today: the average american voter!😱

It seems absurd to me, to let people who have never stepped foot on a farm, or a slaughter house, make decisions that have such major consequences.

As the old saying goes, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." I think this sums it up.

 

[No Imagination]

I'm really interested in hearing from someone who was against prop 2 for reasons other than finances and why they think this proposition may not help the situations animals are kept in.

Ok, little bit of D.A. here:

Pretty sure most of the changes in prop 2 will not be realized for +5 years or so in Ca.

In that time, California's agriculture industry collapses. Pre-vet students argue and debate for years to come on the cause of the "infamous Ca farm collapse of 2010". Goverment agencies and law makers look at the situation and blame "Prop 2", thereby assuring that no similar law ever gets on the books in their states again.

What does Prop 2 accomplish in such a senario?
Protect animals? Nope, all (most) of the industry ag. in Ca died out.
Set a precedent? Nope, other states blame the Ca collapse on Prop 2 (not the economy or global warming or Pirate decline"

If you want laws to be viewed favorably, when it comes to animals, a Utilitarian approach is required (Greatest good for the greatest number).

 

[SHEEPRL]

As far as educating people, I think the word is slowly getting out. I talk about it to everyone I know, and I'm doing a speech on it for one of my classes. It's been discussed in all the horse forums I frequent, and the majority are for horse slaughter. Every person I've ever met who is actually involved in the industry (not just a recreational rider) is for horse slaughter. It takes time, but I think people are slowly starting to realize the truth.

I ride in several horse clubs and this is also the consensus, there needs to be a processing plant. I do not know about other states but in Idaho there has been several "dumpings" of horses into the BLM (all with brands cut out so no one could track down the owner), and random horses showing up on people's property. Also I want to say to the people who are against Horse slaughter, Have you been to a livestock/horse auction (I am not talking about big breed specific ones) It would be doing the horse justice when they are crippled, starved and beaten to go to a plant. I know that sounds cruel to some but I intern at sale yard check in for the sales and the horses that come through there deserve better then walking around with big sores on their bodies, if they can walk that is. Also who are we to dictate what people can eat, mass countries do not say do not eat lamb/ cattle and quit processing it for us.

As for prop. 2. I think there are some good things within the bill but to radically change the "food" animal handling methods will sky rocket costs, decrease quantity, and efficiency.

Both of these issues are supposed to be animal welfare but as always animal rights radicals are seeping into the mix. Do not get me wrong I am an animal lover!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The biggest problem facing Veterinary medicine and animals today: the average american voter!

I think that is the biggest problem facing America, not just Vet Med But you're right.....it is very easy for people to get hoodwinked. Heck, I used to be horrified at dehorning.....until I saw it done and saw this cow give one pissed off moo, and then go right back to happily chomping away with its herdmates. Then I saw it again, and again....and my perspective changed because I had *seen* this and been *involved* with this. Things like that. I've seen a slaughter, from bolt gun to exsanguination to two hanging sides of meat, and there was nothing inhumane about it. It was quick, painless, and humane (done right, of course).

People who have not seen these things firsthand really can't get a proper grasp, especially with animal rights organizations sensationalizing and parading the few bad examples around, calling it "common practice" when it most certainly are NOT.

 

[sumstorm]

BR549, the thing that upsets me is that people think thier food comes from small, family farms, when most comes from massive industrial operations. Thinks like the 'happy cows come from CA' ads don't really help. Somewhere on the web Meatrix is circulating, which I found bemusing.

I think people need to do more than visit a farm...or go to 'farm days' at the state fair. I think they need to visit industrial farms as well. There is a reason the meat we sold cost 3x+ as much as that in the grocery, our animals were well cared for, raised on pasture that wasn't treated with chemicals (certified organic beef, lamb, and poultry) and in some cases was 'self flavored.' And yet, I am pretty close to vegetarian when I am away from the farm.

Here is another random gripe...when I was in NYC, there was a proposal to ban air cured delis. And I really hate that I can't get real clotted cream now. Well, except at home.

 

[BR549]

Well said SHEEPRL! If you can catch one of those loose horses that is trained I'll take it!😉

 

[JustCats]

I am uninformed on the horse slaughter issue. Can someone provide a link to an unbiased and reliable source of information for my edification? Thank you!

 

[BR549]

BR549, the thing that upsets me is that people think thier food comes from small, family farms, when most comes from massive industrial operations. Thinks like the 'happy cows come from CA' ads don't really help. Somewhere on the web Meatrix is circulating, which I found bemusing.

I think people need to do more than visit a farm...or go to 'farm days' at the state fair. I think they need to visit industrial farms as well. There is a reason the meat we sold cost 3x+ as much as that in the grocery, our animals were well cared for, raised on pasture that wasn't treated with chemicals (certified organic beef, lamb, and poultry) and in some cases was 'self flavored.' And yet, I am pretty close to vegetarian when I am away from the farm.

Here is another random gripe...when I was in NYC, there was a proposal to ban air cured delis. And I really hate that I can't get real clotted cream now. Well, except at home.

I'm surprised that they even think the meat comes from the farm. I've met people who think it comes from... well, not in their words, but spontaneous generation. (You mean meat doesn't just come packaged at the grocery store?!) I know people that would not eat eggs if they knew where they come out! In fact, I brought some fresh eggs to some coworkers and they gave me a "Thanks, but I'm not eating that" type of look. I guess grocery store eggs are better than fresh. Who knew?😛

JustCats, here's a link to a AVMA article: http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan08/080115a.asp

 

[sumstorm]

Oh, they tend to think it comes from a farm, just a farm that has no mud or feces, where nothing ever gets sick or goes wrong!

Wait, didn't Marie Antoinette have a farm like that? Where they bathed every animal before she entered?

Why couldn't I grow up on that farm...after the cleaning crew of course!

Actually, I did do a lot of 'barn tours' while in 4-H and it is amazing how many people don't realize beef = beef CATTLE or that pork = pig.

 

[EqSci]

I am uninformed on the horse slaughter issue. Can someone provide a link to an unbiased and reliable source of information for my edification? Thank you!

I know Wiki isn't the greatest, but this is the best site I found that gives you a good summary of what has happened. Look under US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughter

Most sites are strongly biased as it is a fiercely heated subject (even the first section of this article is biased). Also note it's from nearly 2 years ago.

 

[CatVet2Be]

I know people that would not eat eggs if they knew where they come out!

Funny side story, I once sat and explained eggs, what they really are, where they come out of etc.. to my husband and he hasn't eaten one since, that was a few years ago! I tend to forget other people get grossed out a lot easier than those in the animal world. 😛

 

[sumstorm]

OMG! Where did he think they came from? The egg fairy? I jsut can't figure it out..... hopefully he knows where human eggs come from, and how they come out!

Oh, that was meant to be pretty light hearted and bemused.

 

[No Imagination]

Ok, this is interesting: From the wiki... *thanks EqSci 🙂

On March 28, 2007, the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia ruled that it was illegal for horse slaughterhouses to pay the USDA for their own health inspections. The next day USDA pulled their inspectors from Cavel, effectively ending slaughter of horses for human consumption in the United States.

Now, anyone know if the Beef industry can pay for their own inspectors? We either have a conflict of interest issue here, or the USDA isn't doing its job.

Finally, a logical and scientific argument (also from the wiki) for the ban.

Almost all equine medications and treatments are labeled "not for horses intended for human consumption." In the European Union, horses intended for slaughter cannot be treated with many medications commonly used for U.S. horses. For horses going to slaugther, there is no period of withdrawal between the time it leaves home and the time it is butchered

 

[sumstorm]

actually, I believe that was EqSci. I spent time in Korea....I think consumption is better than simple destruction

 

[CatVet2Be]

OMG! Where did he think they came from? The egg fairy? I jsut can't figure it out..... hopefully he knows where human eggs come from, and how they come out!

Oh, that was meant to be pretty light hearted and bemused.

😀 Well, that was the problem, he'd never really thought about it and when I told him it was more or less a rejected ovulation he lost all interest in ever eating eggs again. Though this is also from the same person who, if I spend all day doing loads of laundry and putting away all his clothes nice and neat and organized, claims the "laundry fairy" did it and I'm just trying to take credit for it! 😡

 

[EqSci]

Finally, a logical and scientific argument (also from the wiki) for the ban.

Almost all equine medications and treatments are labeled "not for horses intended for human consumption." In the European Union, horses intended for slaughter cannot be treated with many medications commonly used for U.S. horses. For horses going to slaugther, there is no period of withdrawal between the time it leaves home and the time it is butchered

I don't think that's an argument for the ban so much as an argument for enacting a withholding/withdrawal period. 😉

 

[sumstorm]

LOL. the laundry fairy here delivers the following note:

"The laundry fair only exists in the laundry room, which is a magical land. In this magical land, laundry that is right side out and placed in the correct hamper will be washed within 7 days using the washing machine and the drying line or dryer. It will then appear in your personal basket folded. If you have any clothes with special instructions, please write them out very clearly, and report to the laundry room with the instructions and article of clothing, and enjoy the magical land as you complete your special instructions! Any laundry not collected within 48 hours of being laundered will be donated to the laundry fairie's favorite charity. Please note, you are responsible for all stain treatments and repairs to clothing before it is laundered. Any laundry caught outside of its barns or corrals may also disappear to the land of Lost Socks. Thank you and enjoy your clean and freshly aired laundry!'

I will do laundry...but only by my own rules!

 

[CatVet2Be]

I love it!!!

 

[JustCats]

Thank you! I don't know enough to pick a side yet but the article is very illuminating.

JustCats, here's a link to a AVMA article: http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan08/080115a.asp

 

[eventualeventer]

I don't think that's an argument for the ban so much as an argument for enacting a withholding/withdrawal period. 😉

The problem is that a number of drugs are labeled such that they can not be used at all, ever, in food-producing animals. There's a list below, which includes some common drugs such as Furacin, enrofloxacin, and chloramphenicol.
http://www.farad.org/prohibit.html

While I am in favor of slaughter, as opposed to overwhelming rescues and horses being abandoned, I would not want to eat a horse from the general U.S. population.

 

[TSUJC]

I am not saying that I condone factory-type farming BUT since the public demands low cost, high quality animal commodities…it is fair to say that WE as consumers have driven the market in that direction.

If the public was willing to pay a few more dollars for our ham or bacon then maybe total gestation hog crates would not be necessary. The reality is that most consumers want to go to walmart and pay nearly nothing for high quality food.

As for the horse slaughter act…EqSci is right on the money.

AGAIN, the public is very unaware. Seriously…there are regulations on how animals are slaughtered and hammers are not used ( like many activist groups have stated). I live in Texas and I have been to the slaughter plants before they closed. Just like other livestock, horses are stunned (rendered unconscious) before they are exsanguinated.

As future veterinarians I think we should make it our goal to inform the uneducated!

 

[chris03333]

in the U.S., the plants hit them in the head with a sledge hammer!🙄 I've never heard of that. I asked her if she meant an electrode (that's what's used in cattle slaughter).

She probably confused the captive bolt (what is used in cow slaughter in the US) and sledge hammer...
😕

 

[EqSci]

As future veterinarians I think we should make it our goal to inform the uneducated!

Absolutely! I think that is just as important, if not MORE important, than treating animals. I've always been huge on client/public education.

 

[StealthDog]

it is fair to say that WE as consumers have driven the market in that direction.

But then wouldn't it be fair to say that things like Prop 2 are evidence that the social conscious is starting to disdain factory-farming-type practices like battery cages, veal crates, farrowing crates, etc?