I need options on how to make money

[geeneurology]

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Hello all,

I'm in desperate need of advice and options for my future. To help you guys understand where I'm coming from, and where I'm going, I'll give you a little information about me.

I am a female Junior in a Psychology (B.S.) undergraduate program in South Carolina. I have fulfilled all of my MCAT and med school requirements. My current GPA is 3.55, but this semester should boost my GPA significantly. My main concern is not 'What are my chances?' Not at least for getting into medical school. That's for another time anyways. I have not taken the MCAT and plan to do so June 30th. I know who to ask for letters of recommendation. As far as getting up to June 30th, I have most of my life figured out with my road to medical school.

There is just one problem.
Money.

I plan on beginning medical school in fall of 2018, but I need to start planning for how to live starting then. I will have no parental help whatsoever. Not for health care, car insurance, cell phone bill. Nothing. I will be absolutely on my own to pay for my schooling and my survival. Up until this point I have taken out several loans with my mother's co-signature, but she will no longer be able to do this. I am also planning on cutting of this relationship in the same time period because she is controlling my life, and putting me through hell. My father is as broke, if not worse, and off somewhere doing something. I'm sure I'll get FAFSA aid, but I doubt it will cover it all. So that means I'll pay out of pocket, or I'll have to take out a loan. I plan on staying instate, so the tuition is about $60k - $70k with living expenses and fees included. I plan to work during my senior year of undergraduate, and save as much as I can. I am significantly worried about what is to come after that. I read up on some scholarships and solutions, and I read about the NHSC program, but I have no desire to do primary care, as I want to do neurology. I read up on joining the reserves, and I've heard mixed information about deployment? On the website it says there is a $2k monthly stipend, but says there is no deployment. I'm wondering if there is any other commitments I must make after this as well.

I'm going to be frank and go ahead and say that I am scared. This is what I want to do with my life more than anything. I've been shadowing a neurologist for the last year and that is exactly what I want to do.
Before you say 'take a year off and work,' I don't think that's feasible. My loans have the 6 month grace period, so more than six months, and I have to start full time paying all of them. That's about $40k that I don't have right now either.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and any insight you can provide!

 

[aalamruad]

I don't see the problem; take out loans for medical school like the rest of us, you'll be fine! You'll probably graduate with ~$300k in student loans but you'll survive.

Edit: to make money during senior year, I'd recommend freelance tutoring. I'm making $30-50/hour doing so right now, and it's a very flexible and enjoyable job

 

[geeneurology]

I don't see the problem; take out loans for medical school like the rest of us, you'll be fine! You'll probably graduate with ~$300k in student loans but you'll survive.

Edit: to make money during senior year, I'd recommend freelance tutoring. I'm making $30-50/hour doing so right now, and it's a very flexible and enjoyable job

Question, then, can I take out loans without having to pay on them immediately, and without a cosigner?

And thanks for the tip! I'l definitely keep that in mind!

 

[cactusman]

Question, then, can I take out loans without having to pay on them immediately, and without a cosigner?

And thanks for the tip! I'l definitely keep that in mind!

Yes, people take much larger loans without cosigning for med school since it's more often necessary to do so (and there's a much better chance that you'll be able to pay back large loans).

 

[aldol16]

Well, there's always prostitution... In all seriousness, I am sorry to hear about your situation. How have you been covering your tuition, fees, and living expenses? Why is that not a viable option anymore? I believe that at your age, it's very hard to get a loan without a cosigner. With respect to undergraduate federal loans, I'm not sure about the exact terms, but there should be an option to enter into forbearance where the loans continue to accrue interest but you don't have to make payments or the payment is reduced. Since you're entering med school and won't have an income source, I think this might be a viable choice. You may be able to get a job during school this next year so that you can cover at least part of your living expenses - the rest you'll probably have to take out loans for.

With respect to med school itself, there are of course various options available to you. You said you're not interested in primary care, but there are also loan forgiveness programs for after med school where you work for a non-profit hospital for a certain number of years, make on-time payments on your loans, and the rest is forgiven after like ten years or something like that. The military also has the health professions scholarship but there are people on here who are much more qualified to speak about that than I. But keep in mind that this scholarship has a service requirement (I think, roughly, it's 1 year active duty + 1 year reserves for each year you're on the scholarship). I can only tell you that I've heard that the military can be inflexible when it comes to residency placement since you're more subject to their supply and demand system. Personally, I think that if you want to serve, then this is a good option. But if you're doing it only to help pay for school, I think there are better ways.

Med schools also have merit scholarships that they award. Do very well on the MCAT and you might become eligible for them. There are also schools that do financial aid based solely on need. But in the end, you might just have to take out loans during med school which is what most people do anyway. It's money that you will be able to pay back when you become a doctor, so in the grander scheme of things, it's not that much!

I also don't think that taking a gap year just to pay off loans is a good idea if you're responsible for all living expenses during that time. With a bachelor's degree (unless you have connections or a unique skillset in high-paying industries such as tech, biotech, consulting, or finance), you really won't make much money - probably enough only to break even. You'll be able to live during your gap year, but you won't be able to pay much of your loan back.

 

[aldol16]

Question, then, can I take out loans without having to pay on them immediately, and without a cosigner?

It all depends on the terms of the loan. There are several different options for federal loans, as you probably know. But in general for federal med school loans, you don't pay them immediately. They accrue interest, sure, but they don't go into repayment until after med school and then you can apply for forbearance for residency. Federal loans also have income-based repayment schemes so you're never making the choice between having to make your monthly payment or putting food on the table.

 

[stickgirl390]

Question, then, can I take out loans without having to pay on them immediately, and without a cosigner?

And thanks for the tip! I'l definitely keep that in mind!

When you apply for medical school loans through the government, you are considered a professional student. Professional students do not give any information about their parents, nor do they need a consigner. Private loans through a bank or credit union will be different though.

Also with government education loans, as long as you are a full time student, you do not pay on your loans.

 

[aldol16]

When you apply for medical school loans through the government, you are considered a professional student. Professional students do not give any information about their parents, nor do they need a consigner. Private loans through a bank or credit union will be different though.

OP sounds like she will qualify for financial aid though and for any need-based app, you need parental information.

 

[stickgirl390]

OP sounds like she will qualify for financial aid though and for any need-based app, you need parental information.

Regular FAFSA professional loans don't need parent info. I just filled mine out a few weeks ago. You're considered an independent as a professional student, even if your parents still claim you on their tax return.

 

[aalamruad]

edit: misread aldol's previous post

 

[aldol16]

Regular FAFSA professional loans don't need parent info. I just filled mine out a few weeks ago.

Not for every school

Yes, if you're only taking out loans to finance med school, then you won't need parental information on the FAFSA. But if you're doing need-based aid, you will need to fill out parental information on FAFSA. I have filled out the FAFSA for 10 schools and each one of them required parental information on FAFSA for any students applying for need-based aid. I don't know of any that don't require that information for need-based aid.

 

[stickgirl390]

You're saying in addition to the "standard" loan application, there's an another loan that can be applied for?

 

[aldol16]

You're saying in addition to the "standard" loan application, there's an another loan that can be applied for?

The FAFSA is the application for federal loans. You don't have to fill out the parental section if you're only applying for federal loans. If you're applying for need-based loans/scholarships as well, you will need to fill out that section (at least for the ten schools that I filled it out for). As an example, take a look at Georgetown's guidelines (Applying for Financial Aid):

"All unmarried students, and married students whose spouse is not currently employed, applying for institutional financial aid must provide parental information on the FAFSA."

The other application you need to fill out if you want need-based aid is the CSS Profile for most schools.

 

[stickgirl390]

"All unmarried students, and married students whose spouse is not currently employed, applying for institutional financial aid must provide parental information on the FAFSA.

I didn't know this was available! I'll have to look into it for myself now.

And another reason to get my boyfriend to propose...😍

 

[aldol16]

I didn't know this was available! I'll have to look into it for myself now.

And another reason to get my boyfriend to propose...😍

Lol well in this case it's probably better for him not to propose yet, if he has any source of income. But for all need-based purposes, your parents' financial information will be required. When you fill out the FAFSA, you're only filling out what is an application for a federal loan. The reason why it doesn't require parental information in order for you to submit it is because as a graduate student, you are considered independent. But if you want any need-based aid from a school (so for instance, subsidized loans, need-based scholarships, etc.), the process is much more involved because they have to determine your need and they do that by using your parents' information so you actually end up filling out their info twice - once on FAFSA and once on the CSS Profile. Some schools ask for tax returns as well whereas others do not.

So the bottom line is, if you want a financial aid package, you should look into your school(s)' financial aid process because you could be missing out on a lot of money!

 

[geeneurology]

Lol well in this case it's probably better for him not to propose yet, if he has any source of income. But for all need-based purposes, your parents' financial information will be required. When you fill out the FAFSA, you're only filling out what is an application for a federal loan. The reason why it doesn't require parental information in order for you to submit it is because as a graduate student, you are considered independent. But if you want any need-based aid from a school (so for instance, subsidized loans, need-based scholarships, etc.), the process is much more involved because they have to determine your need and they do that by using your parents' information so you actually end up filling out their info twice - once on FAFSA and once on the CSS Profile. Some schools ask for tax returns as well whereas others do not.

So the bottom line is, if you want a financial aid package, you should look into your school(s)' financial aid process because you could be missing out on a lot of money!

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for all the information. So it seems like I can apply to FAFSA for federal based loans, and the CSS Profile. Can these loans cover the costs of insurance etc? To answer your previous question about current situation. My mom currently pays for my rent, health/car insurance, and phone bill. My car is paid off, but it's still in her name. My mom is retiring when I go to medical school, and her retirement plan is awful. My dad isn't in my life, and I have no other family. My mother has also been very problematic in my life, and I do not wish to spend more time with her at that point. Right now I still come home for holidays, and call her about once a week when at school, but any contact with her is very difficult as she is a narcissist. I know she cannot provide anything to do with money in the future as she has made this very clear. She also does not provide any emotional support either. It's a very touchy situation.

 

[Tenk]

Hello all,

I'm in desperate need of advice and options for my future. To help you guys understand where I'm coming from, and where I'm going, I'll give you a little information about me.

I am a female Junior in a Psychology (B.S.) undergraduate program in South Carolina. I have fulfilled all of my MCAT and med school requirements. My current GPA is 3.55, but this semester should boost my GPA significantly. My main concern is not 'What are my chances?' Not at least for getting into medical school. That's for another time anyways. I have not taken the MCAT and plan to do so June 30th. I know who to ask for letters of recommendation. As far as getting up to June 30th, I have most of my life figured out with my road to medical school.

There is just one problem.
Money.

I plan on beginning medical school in fall of 2018, but I need to start planning for how to live starting then. I will have no parental help whatsoever. Not for health care, car insurance, cell phone bill. Nothing. I will be absolutely on my own to pay for my schooling and my survival. Up until this point I have taken out several loans with my mother's co-signature, but she will no longer be able to do this. I am also planning on cutting of this relationship in the same time period because she is controlling my life, and putting me through hell. My father is as broke, if not worse, and off somewhere doing something. I'm sure I'll get FAFSA aid, but I doubt it will cover it all. So that means I'll pay out of pocket, or I'll have to take out a loan. I plan on staying instate, so the tuition is about $60k - $70k with living expenses and fees included. I plan to work during my senior year of undergraduate, and save as much as I can. I am significantly worried about what is to come after that. I read up on some scholarships and solutions, and I read about the NHSC program, but I have no desire to do primary care, as I want to do neurology. I read up on joining the reserves, and I've heard mixed information about deployment? On the website it says there is a $2k monthly stipend, but says there is no deployment. I'm wondering if there is any other commitments I must make after this as well.

I'm going to be frank and go ahead and say that I am scared. This is what I want to do with my life more than anything. I've been shadowing a neurologist for the last year and that is exactly what I want to do.
Before you say 'take a year off and work,' I don't think that's feasible. My loans have the 6 month grace period, so more than six months, and I have to start full time paying all of them. That's about $40k that I don't have right now either.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and any insight you can provide!

It is good you are concerned about money. People who just blindly take out loans without care for when or how they will pay them off are foolish. You should always take out the bare minimum during school in order to survive. That being said, unforunately, in medicine, you have to spend money to make money. One thing you could consider is becoming a scribe. While the pay isn't great, it does give some money and gives you clinical experience, patient contact and a lot to talk about during interviews when they question your reasons for going into medicine. In other words, it's a good use of your free time.

Good luck!

 

[LizzyM]

You can take loans up to the "cost of attendance". That COA includes the school's estimate of living expenses which would include rent, food, phone, insurance, laundry, clothing, transportation. You can take less than the COA but you should be okay to cover your basic needs with loans.

 

[aldol16]

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for all the information. So it seems like I can apply to FAFSA for federal based loans, and the CSS Profile. Can these loans cover the costs of insurance etc? To answer your previous question about current situation. My mom currently pays for my rent, health/car insurance, and phone bill. My car is paid off, but it's still in her name. My mom is retiring when I go to medical school, and her retirement plan is awful. My dad isn't in my life, and I have no other family. My mother has also been very problematic in my life, and I do not wish to spend more time with her at that point. Right now I still come home for holidays, and call her about once a week when at school, but any contact with her is very difficult as she is a narcissist. I know she cannot provide anything to do with money in the future as she has made this very clear. She also does not provide any emotional support either. It's a very touchy situation.

I am deeply sorry to hear about your situation. I am available by PM if you need to discuss anything in private but with regard to your questions, you should look at the schools you are looking at for whether they include insurance calculations into the cost of attendance. I believe most schools do but some do not, although the ones that don't offer alternative funding schemes for it. Keep in mind that when you're applying for financial aid, you will still be needing your parents' tax information each year (I believe you only need the custodial parent's information but check with the financial aid websites at the schools).

 

[aldol16]

You can take loans up to the "cost of attendance". That COA includes the school's estimate of living expenses which would include rent, food, phone, insurance, laundry, clothing, transportation. You can take less than the COA but you should be okay to cover your basic needs with loans.

Insurance is not necessarily covered in the COA. For instance, Tulane includes it in miscellaneous expenses (Tulane University - SOM Cost of Attendance) but Michigan does not (Cost of Attendance) and instead funds it through other means.

 

[JB50]

Loans are your friend. You getting through getting medical school to that attending salary is your sole meaning on life for the next four years in order to pay back your friend.

 

[itsalwayssunny96]

There is just one problem.
Money.

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I have a friend who is very similar to you and is living on her own now while in undergrad and plans to pursue a PhD. That being said, the person who replied that tutoring makes $ wasn't lying. There are multiple tutoring websites (I've used Wyzant) where you can tutor in person or online and tutor an innumerable amount of subjects as long as you pass a test corresponding to that subject. I'm only in undergrad and I charged $40 an hour. You really can make a lot of money tutoring and probably make it full-time if you can tutor enough subjects. Best of luck to you... I'm rooting for you.

 

[RenegadeOkapi]

I don't see the problem; take out loans for medical school like the rest of us, you'll be fine! You'll probably graduate with ~$300k in student loans but you'll survive.

Edit: to make money during senior year, I'd recommend freelance tutoring. I'm making $30-50/hour doing so right now, and it's a very flexible and enjoyable job

>$30-50/hour

D: Wat. I charge $15-20... just because I'm broke doesn't mean a high school student should be either. ha ha.

 

[Sardinia]

@geeneurology You have $40k in loans and absolutely no idea whether any of it is federal or not. Seems like telling you about programs like IBR, PSLF, and PAYE would be criminal at this point.

 

[aalamruad]

>$30-50/hour

D: Wat. I charge $15-20... just because I'm broke doesn't mean a high school student should be either. ha ha.

Haha it's mostly rich parents paying, not the kids (and I do some pro bono tutoring too, I'm not out to screw over students haha)

 

[Sardinia]

Haha it's mostly rich parents paying, not the kids (and I do some pro bono tutoring too, I'm not out to screw over students haha)

Good for you. You hustle every single person willing to pay you a higher market price because that is what you are worth. You are improving the situation of your fellow tutors by establishing a higher value of return for services. Time is an invaluable commodity. Education is arguably the most inflated commodity that currently exists on the market.

 

[cactusman]

@geeneurology You have $40k in loans and absolutely no idea whether any of it is federal or not. Seems like telling you about programs like IBR, PSLF, and PAYE would be criminal at this point.

I... uh... I think you might have told her.

 

[geeneurology]

@geeneurology You have $40k in loans and absolutely no idea whether any of it is federal or not. Seems like telling you about programs like IBR, PSLF, and PAYE would be criminal at this point.

I do know where they come from, but that's beside the point. I hate to be this type of person, but my mother has steam rolled through all of this without really telling me much of anything. I realize I'm in the dark about a lot of things, but I just want to know what is out there for me in the future when I have to do things on my own.

 

[JB50]

Good for you. You hustle every single person willing to pay you a higher market price because that is what you are worth. You are improving the situation of your fellow tutors by establishing a higher value of return for services. Time is an invaluable commodity. Education is arguably the most inflated commodity that currently exists on the market.

That is data I would rather not see. Please keep your private parts/data to yourself.

 

[cactusman]

$20,000 is from a private loan company that is co-signed by my mother. The rest is a mix of Federal subsidized and Federal Unsubsidized. I do not know about them off the top of my head, but I know how to look them up. I hate to be this type of person, but my mother has steam rolled through all of this without really telling me much of anything. I realize I'm in the dark about a lot of things, but I just want to know what is out there for me in the future when I have to do things on my own.

Your school probably has some sort of portal where you can see your financial aid package. I'm not sure if private loans are included, but federal were probably included in your initial offer, so they should be visible.

You're a junior, so your federal loans are probably:
$13,500 subsidized Stafford
$6,000 unsubsidized Stafford
I believe the interest rate on Stafford loans for the past year is 3.48%, but they might have been higher before that.

The other federal undergrad loans which don't require a cosigner are Perkins, which are subsidized and somewhere around 4.5% interest rate, but Stafford is given out before Perkins.

In the future, never, ever cosign for tens of thousands of dollars in debt unless you completely understand what you are doing.

Edit: If you really need to cosign for student loans (I generally am against it because if something happens to you your parent is stuck with your debt, but it's too late anyway), maybe you're eligible for PLUS next year? I d0n't know about interest rates but federal loans have some more convenient repayment plans.

 

[aldol16]

Edit: If you really need to cosign for student loans (I generally am against it because if something happens to you your parent is stuck with your debt, but it's too late anyway), maybe you're eligible for PLUS next year? I d0n't know about interest rates but federal loans have some more convenient repayment plans.

The whole point of having a cosigner is that it secures your loan and so you get a lower interest rate due to lower risk. Without a cosigner, a young person is higher risk and so the interest rate will be higher. I believe the Direct PLUS loans are in the 6-7% range. Always smarter financially to get the cosigner for undergrad loans.

 

[cactusman]

The whole point of having a cosigner is that it secures your loan and so you get a lower interest rate due to lower risk. Without a cosigner, a young person is higher risk and so the interest rate will be higher. I believe the Direct PLUS loans are in the 6-7% range. Always smarter financially to get the cosigner for undergrad loans.

Yes, I generally think avoiding anything beyond Perkins - ideally, beyond Stafford - is better, but I also made a college list with schools that provide a lot of need-based aid, and that's not an option for a lot of students.

 

[JB50]

I don't see the problem; take out loans for medical school like the rest of us, you'll be fine! You'll probably graduate with ~$300k in student loans but you'll survive.

Edit: to make money during senior year, I'd recommend freelance tutoring. I'm making $30-50/hour doing so right now, and it's a very flexible and enjoyable job

I was suprised to see like 100 students at my school come out of med school with NO DEBT. Out of a class of ~4-500, that's a damn lot of richies.

 

[aldol16]

I was suprised to see like 100 students at my school come out of med school with NO DEBT. Out of a class of ~4-500, that's a damn lot of richies.

How many students are in your med school class.... 100 is like the full class size for many schools. Either way, some proportion of students come out of med school without debt because of merit scholarships or very generous financial aid. They don't necessarily have to have financed their whole education themselves.

 

[JB50]

How many students are in your med school class.... 100 is like the full class size for many schools. Either way, some proportion of students come out of med school without debt because of merit scholarships or very generous financial aid. They don't necessarily have to have financed their whole education themselves.

I rounded a bit but MSUCOM

 

[Sardinia]

How many students are in your med school class.... 100 is like the full class size for many schools. Either way, some proportion of students come out of med school without debt because of merit scholarships or very generous financial aid. They don't necessarily have to have financed their whole education themselves.

Merit scholarships aren't going to low-SES students. @JB50 never mentioned whether or not the students were able to finance their entire undergraduate education. He mentioned that the students self-identified themselves as being debt-free.

 

[aldol16]

Merit scholarships aren't going to low-SES students. @JB50 never mentioned whether or not the students were able to finance their entire undergraduate education. He mentioned that the students self-identified themselves as being debt-free.

Low-SES and getting a merit scholarship are not mutually exclusive. I'm classified as low SES and have received full merit scholarship offers. Also, you obviously didn't read the last sentence of his post, which referred to "richies," implying that they were rich enough to finance their education.

 

[Sardinia]

Low-SES and getting a merit scholarship are not mutually exclusive.

Where did I type that the two variables are exclusive to one another?

I'm classified as low SES and have received full merit scholarship offers.

Also, you obviously didn't read the last sentence of his post, which referred to "richies," implying that they were rich enough to finance their education.

I am stating that your implications could be incorrect in a variety of ways, but none of which I feel like elaborating to you.

 

[aldol16]

Where did I type that the two variables are exclusive to one another?

Here:

Merit scholarships aren't going to low-SES students.

Draw a Venn diagram as an exercise if you have to.

I am stating that your implications could be incorrect in a variety of ways, but none of which I feel like elaborating to you.

Well, we can have a discussion when you feel like coming out of the playpen.

 

[Eleithyia]

Merit scholarships aren't going to low-SES students.

Low-SES and getting a merit scholarship are not mutually exclusive. I'm classified as low SES and have received full merit scholarship offers.

I'm guessing this was a referrence to the well-documented positive correlation between SES and traditional determinants of merit. Most merit scholarships aren't going to low-SES students, since a low SES usually means lower test scores & GPA.

It might be a moot point anyway. Even people who weren't "richies" before will probably be rich pretty soon if they graduated med school debt-free.

 

[aldol16]

I'm guessing this was a referrence to the well-documented positive correlation between SES and traditional determinants of merit. Most merit scholarships aren't going to low-SES students, since a low SES usually means lower test scores & GPA.

Asserting that "merit scholarships aren't going to low-SES students" would require a causal relationship because "aren't" is an expression of certainty. Take this correlation too far and you get dangerously close to micro-aggression territory. The mainstream interpretation is actually that lower test scores and/or GPA might be explained by low SES but low SES does not mean lower test scores.

 

[Sardinia]

Asserting that "merit scholarships aren't going to low-SES students" would require a causal relationship because "aren't" is an expression of certainty. Take this correlation too far and you get dangerously close to micro-aggression territory. The mainstream interpretation is actually that lower test scores and/or GPA might be explained by low SES but low SES does not mean lower test scores.

I wasn't aware Micro-aggression was a territory. If I knew I was dangerously close then I would have picked up a passport somewhere in Nanoaggreslavia seeing as how I'm on my way to Macroaggresia.

Edit: Forgot to capitalize the names of proper nouns.

 

[precisiongraphic]

I

Edit: to make money during senior year, I'd recommend freelance tutoring. I'm making $30-50/hour doing so right now, and it's a very flexible and enjoyable job

I agree on the tutoring. After you graduate, get a day job and tutor on the weekends, your days off and evenings for extra money.

 

[StevenSeagull]

If you OWN a car try Uber/ Lyft. If you drive Friday and Saturday night around your downtown area (or whichever area has the highest concentration of bars) you could make a couple hundred a weekend.

 

[Eleithyia]

Asserting that "merit scholarships aren't going to low-SES students" would require a causal relationship because "aren't" is an expression of certainty. Take this correlation too far and you get dangerously close to micro-aggression territory. The mainstream interpretation is actually that lower test scores and/or GPA might be explained by low SES but low SES does not mean lower test scores.

You're right, I misspoke: I should have said low SES was correlated with lower scores/GPA. But as a person from a low-SES background, I'm well aware that poor =/= unintelligent, and I'm very familiar with dealing with other people's biases in that department. I don't see the logical result of a documented correlation as a microaggression, though.

 

[Mednight]

Learn how to invest your money. I picked up a copy of "How to Invest Online for Dummies" and let me say-with my previous knowledge and my knowledge from the book, I've picked up many skills that I would have never thought of.
Download some investment apps such as:
Stash
Acorns
Robinhood

 

[aldol16]

You're right, I misspoke: I should have said low SES was correlated with lower scores/GPA. But as a person from a low-SES background, I'm well aware that poor =/= unintelligent, and I'm very familiar with dealing with other people's biases in that department. I don't see the logical result of a documented correlation as a microaggression, though.

It's not that the correlation itself is a correlation. That's why I said it comes close to a microaggression if you take it too far. Data is data and the numbers will tell you some objective fact. It's the interpretation and use of those numbers that can get you close to microaggression territory. "Oh, you tested so well for someone from a low SES background!" is a microaggression that is equivalent to "Oh, you tested so well for someone who's black." One should not simply assume that somebody from a low SES will test lower just because they are from that background.

 

[aalamruad]

It's not that the correlation itself is a correlation. That's why I said it comes close to a microaggression if you take it too far. Data is data and the numbers will tell you some objective fact. It's the interpretation and use of those numbers that can get you close to microaggression territory. "Oh, you tested so well for someone from a low SES background!" is a microaggression that is equivalent to "Oh, you tested so well for someone who's black." One should not simply assume that somebody from a low SES will test lower just because they are from that background.

I agree with your overall point, but come on.. equivalent? Race != economic resources. Economic status is very closely tied to amount of free time and resources one can devote to studying.

Of two people who score 520, the one who had to work a full-time minimum wage job while not being able to afford any good review books or practice tests is certainly more impressive than the kid whose parents dropped many thousands of dollars on prep courses, practice tests, private tutors, etc. It's unfair of you to equate that to race differences.

 

[aldol16]

I agree with your overall point, but come on.. equivalent? Race != economic resources. Economic status is very closely tied to amount of free time and resources one can devote to studying.

Of two people who score 520, the one who had to work a full-time minimum wage job while not being able to afford any good review books or practice tests is certainly more impressive than the kid whose parents dropped many thousands of dollars on prep courses, practice tests, private tutors, etc. It's unfair of you to equate that to race differences.

And race is closely tied to economic status. Why don't you look at the top 10% and see how many are black or the bottom 10% and see how many are white? I never said a low SES kid who got a 520 isn't more impressive than an upper class kid who got a 520. That's not what microaggressions are about and your example is moot. Microaggressions are about (erroneously) interpreting someone's achievement based on stereotypes about their own social category. It's not about comparing one person to another. It's about contextualizing someone's achievement based on some preconceived stereotype about them. Saying "Your 520 is so impressive for someone from a low SES background" implies that you don't think people from low SES backgrounds are ordinarily capable of achieving that score. So instead, do us all a favor and just limit it to, "Your 520 is impressive!"

 

[aalamruad]

And race is closely tied to economic status. Why don't you look at the top 10% and see how many are black or the bottom 10% and see how many are white?

Of course, but the relationship between economic status and MCAT score is partly causal whereas the relationship between race and MCAT score is not. That's the difference.

I never said a low SES kid who got a 520 isn't more impressive than an upper class kid who got a 520. That's not what microaggressions are about and your example is moot. Microaggressions are about (erroneously) interpreting someone's achievement based on stereotypes about their own social category. It's not about comparing one person to another. It's about contextualizing someone's achievement based on some preconceived stereotype about them. Saying "Your 520 is so impressive for someone from a low SES background" implies that you don't think people from low SES backgrounds are ordinarily capable of achieving that score. So instead, do us all a favor and just limit it to, "Your 520 is impressive!"

No one has been saying that.. I've literally never heard anyone say something that condescending, and I doubt you have either.

I was on board with your point about it being incorrect and a bit condescending to say "merit scholarships aren't going to low-SES students," but when you claim that's equivalent to someone saying "you tested so well for someone who's black," you've crossed a line and overstated your case.