I promise not to debate you…

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I’d actually just like to see regulation on marketing.

This is the first novel idea on the gun control side that I've heard in a very long time. I'm not sure how effective it would be, but there's certainly precedent for regulation of advertising with regard to tobacco and alcohol. I'm not sure how it'd fare in court on 1st Amendment grounds. The oft-posted Bushmaster "Man Card" ad is stupid and distasteful, but the argument that it encourages unlawful or harmful use is a little shaky. For my part, I'll give the idea some thought.
 
I bet if you live in a household with a swimming pool, your risk of death by drowning is higher, too.

I know you understand the whole correlation & causation thing.


Yeah it did occur to me that maybe you’re more likely to own a gun if you live in a “dangerous” neighborhood. Still, I’d be concerned if my daughter dated or married a gun owner.
 
The tax stamps on machine guns put in place in 1934 were $200 because that was how much a machine gun cost. The idea was to double the price of a machine gun so people can't afford them. That $200 today is still the same, but with inflation it's trivial now. We could make $10,000 tax stamps.
This is historically inaccurate - the NFA covered many types of guns (it was originally written to include all handguns too), as well as a variety of non-guns, with the same $200 tax for all items. It may have coincidentally been true that one particular type of machine gun also cost $200, but that's not why the tax was put there.

The entire point of the NFA tax was to make it more difficult for poor people to buy the regulated guns (and non-guns that were included in the NFA).

Anyone who values liberty and equality should object to punitive taxes intended to prevent a poorer class of Americans from exercising a right that a wealthier class enjoys.

It's a terrible, regressive, oppressive idea - and (shocker!) it's being proposed again right now: House Democrat proposes 1,000% tax on AR-15-style weapons


Every time we have this thread, I harp on racism and classism again and again. I'd stop listing examples, but gun control advocates just keep giving me more.
 
Yeah it did occur to me that maybe you’re more likely to own a gun if you live in a “dangerous” neighborhood. Still, I’d be concerned if my daughter dated or married a gun owner.
I confess concern about anybody my daughter dates. 🙂 I'd judge him differently if he was carrying a Glock around stuffed in his sweatpants vs if he simply owned a rifle.
 
And there you go again with the lie -

I'm one of the more "extreme" pro-2A people here, and I'll just repost (again) a list of a few of the compromises I've said I'd find acceptable in this thread:
1) expanded background checks
2) a waiting period for first gun purchases
3) mandatory training, provided it was not prohibitively expensive or difficult to get
4) minimum age limit of 21 to purchase

And I'll add to that, after reading some recent posts
5) laws restricting marketing in some fashion


And while a couple people in this thread have sorta agreed to the handful of gun-right concessions I mentioned (e.g. removing suppressors from the NFA, national CCW reciprocity) ... it's particularly telling that not a single Democrat lawmaker at either the state or federal level has signaled any willingness to compromise. It's all a discussion of how much they can get, never a word about what they're willing to give.

You don't seem to know what "compromise" means.





And this really encapsulates, perfectly, everything that is wrong with your side and why my reflex reaction is to resist everything you want to do to "help" ...

You don't mind imposing laws restricting other persons' freedoms, especially if it doesn't affect you personally. This is sociopathic.

You're either absurdly uninformed or simply don't care about historical failures. I mean, you're actually advocating prohibition again! Completely ignorant of how it dramatically made the country less safe and contributed to the birth of organized crime and new levels of violence. How out of touch can you possibly be to suggest that alcohol prohibition would be a good thing?

This is typical of gun control advocates - wring the hands, make an emotional argument to do something please just do something won't someone pleeeeeease think of the chiiiiiildren without regard for whether or not the ideas will work in any practical sense, or pass Constitutional muster.

Essentially, you can't be bothered to understand a subject; you can't be bothered to think through your ideas; and you can't be bothered to care about the unintended consequences of your ideas. The irony is thick, because this is your chief accusation against us - that we're selfish, callous, and ignorant.
What’s up with all the personal attacks? We can argue and disagree but no reason to be disrespectful. Obviously, I struck a nerve with you (again), but this has gone beyond anything professional even on a public anonymous forum.

I already stated before there will be no compromise, why don’t we just leave things at that? I won’t even offer a counter argument or a response.
 
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The point of an armed citizenry in the modern (ie post-1850ish) era isn't to overthrow the federal government. Obviously didn't work out for the Confederacy.

For some reason people like to bring up the absurdity and futility of resisting Apache helicopters or tanks (or hydrogen bombs and biological weapons 🙄 🙄 🙄 if one is particularly obtuse), but it's completely missing the point.

In countries where the people don't have a right to keep and bear arms, the risk isn't artillery or jet fighters - it is thugs arriving in the night to threaten, intimidate, or disappear dissenters. Pick any despotic country today, ranging from Russia to North Korea. Or pick any country that was part of the so-called Arab Spring. If you're interested, read about some of the neighborhoods in Cairo where even one or two people had illegal firearms, and how many of those protesters or organizers were beaten/killed vs those who lived a few streets over.
So the 2nd amendment was written to prevent the SS from disappearing political opponents?

I know this isn't what you are saying but the argument that having guns was conceived as some way to be able to fight tyranny doesn't translate to the modern world. Whether that tyranny comes as an armored force or through some secret police is irrelevant because the average person is not going to put up any kind of opposition in either scenario regardless of how many guns they have. The logic just makes no sense no matter what way you try to look at the idea. Guns do not stop governments.

Just because some prominent opposition leader has a gun does not mean that person can't be disappeared or disabled. You think if Navalny had an AR-15 he would have been fine?
 
But @pgg how do you propose to solve the random angsty teen shooter types?
It appears there are more angsty teens prone to violence these days in the past. There are cultural and economic reasons for that. They also have easier access to weapons.

I think the solution requires a lot of ideas and plans - mainly ones that tend to come from the left regarding economic security and equality of opportunity. The right isn't wrong that strong, nuclear families are profoundly protective vs adolescent and young adult violent crime. It is a multigenerational task to change what we are. The answer is to make a better society.

Obviously the left and right disagree about how to do that. On the right you've got crazy people who think the Handmaid's Tale is a blueprint. On the left you've got, well, San Francisco is a nice example (I thought this article was an interesting read, albeit maybe a little clickbaity and hyperbolic in the headline).

I don't think the solution involves impractical, pointless gun control. Raising the purchase age to 21, stricter safe-storage laws, sure, I guess those are mostly reasonable but I'm skeptical they'll be real effective. At the risk of making a slippery slope argument, one of my concerns is that when those laws don't work (and they won't) the next step will be another layer of gun control (that also won't work).

Let’s just aim for significant reduction of AR/short barrel rifle type gun shootings.

Why focus on rifles? 98%+ of firearm homicides use a pistol. If you could somehow magically make all AR-style rifles evaporate into smoke, all of the "mass" and non-"mass" shootings of people that involve handguns won't go away. Is one mass shooting of 20 people with a rifle really worse than 50 "mass" shootings of 3 people plus a hundred shootings of one person with a pistol? Almost none of which are random attacks? Are the rifle deaths so much worse, that the rational approach is to try to ban rifles?

Because those are the actual ratios we're talking about.
 
Very sad.


Aware of Injuries Inside, Uvalde Police Waited to Confront Gunman


“Investigators have been working to determine whether any of those who died could have been saved if they had received medical attention sooner, according to an official with knowledge of the effort. But there is no question that some of the victims were still alive and in desperate need of medical attention. One teacher died in an ambulance. Three children died at nearby hospitals.
Xavier Lopez, 10, was one of the children who died after being rushed to a hospital. His family said he had been shot in the back and lost a lot of blood as he awaited medical attention. “He could had been saved,” his grandfather Leonard Sandoval said. “The police did not go in for more than an hour. He bled out.”


Supervisors at the scene at some point became aware that there were people inside the classrooms who needed saving.
“We think there are some injuries in there,” the man believed to be Chief Arredondo said several minutes before the breach, according to the transcript. “And so you know what we did, we cleared off the rest of the building so we wouldn’t have any more, besides what’s already in there, obviously.” It was not clear from the transcript whom he was speaking to.
But even with additional documents and video, much about the chaotic scene remained unclear, including precisely when Chief Arredondo and other senior officers became aware of injuries inside the classrooms. It is not known whether Chief Arredondo or other officers inside the school learned of the 911 calls from a child inside the classrooms who said that some had been shot but were still alive.
Among the revelations in the documents: The gunman, Salvador Ramos, had a “hellfire” trigger device meant to allow a semiautomatic AR-15-style rifle to be fired more like an automatic weapon; some of the officers who first arrived at the school had long guns, more firepower than previously known; and Chief Arredondo learned the gunman’s identity while inside the school and attempted in vain to communicate with him by name through the closed classroom doors.

But with two officers who initially approached the door shot at and grazed, Chief Arredondo appeared to have decided that quickly breaching the classrooms without shields and other protection would have led to officers possibly being killed. He focused instead on getting other children out of the school while waiting for additional protection equipment.”
 
What’s up with all the personal attacks? We can argue and disagree but no reason to be disrespectful.

I said you can't be bothered to understand a subject; you can't be bothered to think through your ideas; and you can't be bothered to care about the unintended consequences of your ideas. I think these things are true, and I've given a list of reasons why I think so.

Are you upset that I characterized your statement "I wouldn’t mind alcohol being banned because I don’t drink" as sociopathic? It is.

I already stated before there will be no compromise, why don’t we just leave things at that? I won’t even offer a counter argument or a response.
This thread is full of people on both sides finding common ground and agreeing in principle to some compromises.

There's a bipartisan Senate group that will probably put forth some kind of bill that includes modest reforms in the direction you want. It's possible that if the House split up its omnibus bill, some of its provisions would get through the Senate.

What you apparently mean by "there will be no compromise" is that "RadOncDoc21 won't get everything he wants" and sure, I guess we could leave things at that, if you like.
 
So the 2nd amendment was written to prevent the SS from disappearing political opponents?
Of course that was part of it. Obviously the SS didn't exist at that time, but the British absolutely beat and intimidated people before the Revolutionary War, and it was exactly because enough of the beaten and intimidated people were armed and resisted that the Revolutionary War happened.

Look no further than the 3rd Amendment for more evidence that the authors of the 2nd were concerned with home invasions by the government.

I know this isn't what you are saying but the argument that having guns was conceived as some way to be able to fight tyranny doesn't translate to the modern world. Whether that tyranny comes as an armored force or through some secret police is irrelevant because the average person is not going to put up any kind of opposition in either scenario regardless of how many guns they have. The logic just makes no sense no matter what way you try to look at the idea. Guns do not stop governments.

Except that the modern world keeps giving us examples to the contrary. See for one example the persistent insurgency in Afghanistan that sent us packing.

Just because some prominent opposition leader has a gun does not mean that person can't be disappeared or disabled. You think if Navalny had an AR-15 he would have been fine?
I think Navalny wasn't alone. I think there were a whole lot of people like Navalny and aligned with Navalny that WERE quietly and not-so-quietly rounded up, imprisoned, executed, exiled, beaten, polonium'd, or otherwise intimidated. And yes, maybe it's a stretch to say that if some of them had been armed that some or any of them would have resisted, and the manner of oppression might have been altered.

It's funny that you bring up the Russians. A few months ago, Andrei Zeltser died resisting exactly this kind of oppression from the Russian "SS" in Belarus- here's the video (NSFW). He had two shells in that shotgun, and he made them count before he died. How much did this matter in the end? I don't know. One or a few people fighting and dying to resist absolutely can change the world.

No one expected Ukraine to put up a fight. I bet if their president had fled to Turkey or Belgium and just gave speeches in absentia the war there would've gone a lot differently. Maybe he was inspired by other people who fought, even when losing was likely.

It's hard to predict how a person or a people will react. Freedom and democracy are fragile. Sometimes they fail. Sometimes people give up.

The Arab Spring failed, mostly. Afghanistan had 20 years of our blood and treasure to build a representative government, and they folded in weeks to the Taliban when we left. The only thing that's certain is that helpless and unarmed people can't resist.
 
It appears there are more angsty teens prone to violence these days in the past. There are cultural and economic reasons for that. They also have easier access to weapons.

I think the solution requires a lot of ideas and plans - mainly ones that tend to come from the left regarding economic security and equality of opportunity. The right isn't wrong that strong, nuclear families are profoundly protective vs adolescent and young adult violent crime. It is a multigenerational task to change what we are. The answer is to make a better society.

Obviously the left and right disagree about how to do that. On the right you've got crazy people who think the Handmaid's Tale is a blueprint. On the left you've got, well, San Francisco is a nice example (I thought this article was an interesting read, albeit maybe a little clickbaity and hyperbolic in the headline).

I don't think the solution involves impractical, pointless gun control. Raising the purchase age to 21, stricter safe-storage laws, sure, I guess those are mostly reasonable but I'm skeptical they'll be real effective. At the risk of making a slippery slope argument, one of my concerns is that when those laws don't work (and they won't) the next step will be another layer of gun control (that also won't work).



Why focus on rifles? 98%+ of firearm homicides use a pistol. If you could somehow magically make all AR-style rifles evaporate into smoke, all of the "mass" and non-"mass" shootings of people that involve handguns won't go away. Is one mass shootings of 20 people with a rifle really worse than 50 "mass" shootings of 3 people plus a hundred shootings of one person with a pistol? Almost none of which are random attacks? Are the rifle deaths so much worse, that the rational approach is to try to ban rifles?

Because those are the actual ratios we're talking about.

So I agree, and I said in a prior post the true solution is really just a multi-decade evolution of our society into a better one. The problem there is A.) active social/political changes to speed this up are both impractical and likely impossible to know, B.) we can’t agree on what’s more likely to affect the change we want let alone WHAT the changes we want are C.) if we try to let this occur organically there’s no guarantee we evolve rather than devolve into a worse state, and finally D.) we don’t have the time to wait.

So that leaves us with doing something actively imo.

I also agree that if you just look at statistics then of course handguns cause more deaths in this country. By a lot. Most crime or suicides are undertaken by handguns. So sure, I’d love to just magically disappear all handguns and “ARs” (I fully admit not knowing the semantics or definitions as you would) but I also fully recognize there’s a ZERO percent chance we get rid of handguns in this country. Even if we banned the sale/import of handguns in the US, there’s millions here. They’re not going away.

But I’d absolutely argue that 20 dead grade school kids murdered by a short barrel semi auto rifle is worse than 100 handgun perpetrated murders. There’s undoubtedly a socioeconomic bias to that statement, and I am not saying those 100 victims deserved it by any means. Many are likely innocent bystanders, many more are victims of circumstance etc. But holy crap, we can’t be ok with kids gunned down in school. There’s a line somewhere, but that’s absolutely across it.

And lastly, the idea that if we banned ARs, or made them incredibly expensive or regulated them into an almost intolerable annoyance to acquire that handguns would just replace them…. Is of course absolutely true. But you and I both know, you can’t hit anything with a pistol unless quite practiced and you aren’t having an entire police squad afraid of a guy with 6 pistols in his belt like you are with a kid with an AR.

Slippery slope aside, we can reduce these completely senseless public shootings, if not in number of events, in numbers killed by reducing the availability of ARs. Do we still have a gun problem in this country if we do that? Yes. Is incremental change a change not worth doing? No.
 
So I agree, and I said in a prior post the true solution is really just a multi-decade evolution of our society into a better one. The problem there is A.) active social/political changes to speed this up are both impractical and likely impossible to know, B.) we can’t agree on what’s more likely to affect the change we want let alone WHAT the changes we want are C.) if we try to let this occur organically there’s no guarantee we evolve rather than devolve into a worse state, and finally D.) we don’t have the time to wait.

So that leaves us with doing something actively imo.

I also agree that if you just look at statistics then of course handguns cause more deaths in this country. By a lot. Most crime or suicides are undertaken by handguns. So sure, I’d love to just magically disappear all handguns and “ARs” (I fully admit not knowing the semantics or definitions as you would) but I also fully recognize there’s a ZERO percent chance we get rid of handguns in this country. Even if we banned the sale/import of handguns in the US, there’s millions here. They’re not going away.

But I’d absolutely argue that 20 dead grade school kids murdered by a short barrel semi auto rifle is worse than 100 handgun perpetrated murders. There’s undoubtedly a socioeconomic bias to that statement, and I am not saying those 100 victims deserved it by any means. Many are likely innocent bystanders, many more are victims of circumstance etc. But holy crap, we can’t be ok with kids gunned down in school. There’s a line somewhere, but that’s absolutely across it.

And lastly, the idea that if we banned ARs, or made them incredibly expensive or regulated them into an almost intolerable annoyance to acquire that handguns would just replace them…. Is of course absolutely true. But you and I both know, you can’t hit anything with a pistol unless quite practiced and you aren’t having an entire police squad afraid of a guy with 6 pistols in his belt like you are with a kid with an AR.

Slippery slope aside, we can reduce these completely senseless public shootings, if not in number of events, in numbers killed by reducing the availability of ARs. Do we still have a gun problem in this country if we do that? Yes. Is incremental change a change not worth doing? No.
I see your argument and understand where you're coming from ... I just disagree on several fronts.

First and foremost, legalities and other pros/cons aside, it just isn't more possible/practical to ban rifles than pistols.

In 1994 when the first federal AWB passed, private ownership of AR-pattern rifles was much, much less common than it is now. In the 18 years since the AWB expired, there has been an enormous surge in ownership of these rifles. There are lots of reasons why, but the simplest is just that they are exceptionally well designed, inexpensive rifles. They're accurate, ergonomic, low recoil, light, easily customizable. Attributes that are seized on by gun control advocates as "assault-y" like the pistol grip and collapsible stock are just ergonomic improvements over ye olde wood-stocked musket or hunting rifle. Anyone who's ever fired a traditional wood stock deer rifle and then fired an AR15 will tell you which is easier and more comfortable to use.

I shoot AR15s in competition and every once in a while one of my Garands. It's just night and day difference.

There are 10s of millions of AR15s in circulation now. I can't find a good data source at the moment but I think in 1994 when the AWB was passed there were something like 1% or fewer of the current count. Despite that, the AWB didn't work, for lots of reasons. It was hard to rigorously define what an "assault rifle" is, because it's mostly a cosmetic distinction. An entire industry of "post-ban" rifles and "featureless" rifles grew and essentially anyone who wanted one could get an AR-pattern rifle, with some silly cosmetic compromises. Even in the most restrictive states, like California. Or they just bought mini-14s or ranch rifles which are functionally equivalent to ARs. Same cartridge. Some even use the same magazines.

Constitutional legalities aside, the absurdity of a new AWB lies in a few things

1 - There are far too many in circulation. You recognize that there is ZERO percent chance we're getting rid of handguns because there are so many of them. I don't think you've realized yet that there's also a ZERO percent chance we're getting rid of black anodized aluminum rifles.

1b - Same issue for "high capacity" magazines. States have been banning them in fits and starts for the 18 years since the AWB expired and every few years there's another run on them. There are probably a couple hundred million 30-round AR magazines in the USA today. No exaggeration.

2 - They're easy to make at home, and getting easier. The furor and angst over "ghost guns" is just yapping over an open barn door when the other three walls are completely missing. 3D printers are only getting better and cheaper. I personally have a hobbyist mill in my garage that I have personally used to turn square chunks of 7075 aluminum into AR15 lower receivers.

3 - A repeat of the 1994 AWB would be even less effective now than it was then, because evading cosmetic definitions is so easy. Meaning that any new AWB would really have to be a confiscation of, and ban of new sale of, and ban of manufacture of, ALL semi-automatic rifles. Otherwise you can't expect it to cover the black rifles in production now, or the ones that would be produced to comply with the law.

A ban of ALL semi-automatic rifles just can't happen without a straight up repeal of the 2nd Amendment.


I don't think 26 kids & adults in a 2012 school shooting plus 21 in a 2022 school shooting outweigh the non-school murders that happen every day.

I don't think it's reasonable to make token gun control gestures that (1) won't work and (2) are unconstitutional, just to handwave some good feelings and pretend to be doing something.

I don't think punitive taxes to dissuade people from buying rifles are acceptable. I will never agree with any government action that reserves a privilege for the wealthy. Particularly when the issue at hand is a Constitutionally enumerated civil right.

Despite the difficulty, and the generation or more that it'll take, I do think the cultural fight is the one that's worth having. Although success isn't guaranteed, success is actually possible. The worst part of it all is that I think that on the whole, the left has the better ideas for getting there. And every time the left gets distracted by futile gun control and all the associated virtue signaling and futile handwaving ... they lose elections and any actual ability to do any of those things. It's about to happen again - Democrats are going to lose the House and Senate over this.
 
This is the first novel idea on the gun control side that I've heard in a very long time. I'm not sure how effective it would be, but there's certainly precedent for regulation of advertising with regard to tobacco and alcohol. I'm not sure how it'd fare in court on 1st Amendment grounds. The oft-posted Bushmaster "Man Card" ad is stupid and distasteful, but the argument that it encourages unlawful or harmful use is a little shaky. For my part, I'll give the idea some thought.

I think people underestimate the power of marketing in the age of data mining and targeted ads. There is a reason why some of the most valuable companies that have ever existed are really just glorified avenues to put ads in front of you.

And every time the left gets distracted by futile gun control and all the associated virtue signaling and futile handwaving ... they lose elections and any actual ability to do any of those things. It's about to happen again - Democrats are going to lose the House and Senate over this.

Nope. They are going to lose the House and Senate over inflation, gas prices, and the stock market. You want to think that gun owners are going to the polls because they don’t want background checks, but the reality is they are voting because gas is $5 per gallon.
 
Nope. They are going to lose the House and Senate over inflation, gas prices, and the stock market. You want to think that gun owners are going to the polls because they don’t want background checks, but the reality is they are voting because gas is $5 per gallon.
Well to be fair they were going to lose both of those no matter what. Even if Christ came back form the dead and told the Republicans to vote for the Democrats they still would have lost. There were way too many factors going against them, pinning inflation on them was just the extra gravy they didn't need.
 
I see your argument and understand where you're coming from ... I just disagree on several fronts.

First and foremost, legalities and other pros/cons aside, it just isn't more possible/practical to ban rifles than pistols.

In 1994 when the first federal AWB passed, private ownership of AR-pattern rifles was much, much less common than it is now. In the 18 years since the AWB expired, there has been an enormous surge in ownership of these rifles. There are lots of reasons why, but the simplest is just that they are exceptionally well designed, inexpensive rifles. They're accurate, ergonomic, low recoil, light, easily customizable. Attributes that are seized on by gun control advocates as "assault-y" like the pistol grip and collapsible stock are just ergonomic improvements over ye olde wood-stocked musket or hunting rifle. Anyone who's ever fired a traditional wood stock deer rifle and then fired an AR15 will tell you which is easier and more comfortable to use.

I shoot AR15s in competition and every once in a while one of my Garands. It's just night and day difference.

There are 10s of millions of AR15s in circulation now. I can't find a good data source at the moment but I think in 1994 when the AWB was passed there were something like 1% or fewer of the current count. Despite that, the AWB didn't work, for lots of reasons. It was hard to rigorously define what an "assault rifle" is, because it's mostly a cosmetic distinction. An entire industry of "post-ban" rifles and "featureless" rifles grew and essentially anyone who wanted one could get an AR-pattern rifle, with some silly cosmetic compromises. Even in the most restrictive states, like California. Or they just bought mini-14s or ranch rifles which are functionally equivalent to ARs. Same cartridge. Some even use the same magazines.

Constitutional legalities aside, the absurdity of a new AWB lies in a few things

1 - There are far too many in circulation. You recognize that there is ZERO percent chance we're getting rid of handguns because there are so many of them. I don't think you've realized yet that there's also a ZERO percent chance we're getting rid of black anodized aluminum rifles.

1b - Same issue for "high capacity" magazines. States have been banning them in fits and starts for the 18 years since the AWB expired and every few years there's another run on them. There are probably a couple hundred million 30-round AR magazines in the USA today. No exaggeration.

2 - They're easy to make at home, and getting easier. The furor and angst over "ghost guns" is just yapping over an open barn door when the other three walls are completely missing. 3D printers are only getting better and cheaper. I personally have a hobbyist mill in my garage that I have personally used to turn square chunks of 7075 aluminum into AR15 lower receivers.

3 - A repeat of the 1994 AWB would be even less effective now than it was then, because evading cosmetic definitions is so easy. Meaning that any new AWB would really have to be a confiscation of, and ban of new sale of, and ban of manufacture of, ALL semi-automatic rifles. Otherwise you can't expect it to cover the black rifles in production now, or the ones that would be produced to comply with the law.

A ban of ALL semi-automatic rifles just can't happen without a straight up repeal of the 2nd Amendment.


I don't think 26 kids & adults in a 2012 school shooting plus 21 in a 2022 school shooting outweigh the non-school murders that happen every day.

I don't think it's reasonable to make token gun control gestures that (1) won't work and (2) are unconstitutional, just to handwave some good feelings and pretend to be doing something.

I don't think punitive taxes to dissuade people from buying rifles are acceptable. I will never agree with any government action that reserves a privilege for the wealthy. Particularly when the issue at hand is a Constitutionally enumerated civil right.

Despite the difficulty, and the generation or more that it'll take, I do think the cultural fight is the one that's worth having. Although success isn't guaranteed, success is actually possible. The worst part of it all is that I think that on the whole, the left has the better ideas for getting there. And every time the left gets distracted by futile gun control and all the associated virtue signaling and futile handwaving ... they lose elections and any actual ability to do any of those things. It's about to happen again - Democrats are going to lose the House and Senate over this.
The "cultural war" is the one where the older generation stops pretending shooting and owning guns is a normal acceptable hobby.

Going to the range and entering shooting competitions? Its unfathomable to most normal american non gun nuts.. - sorry maybe try something else with your spare time.

Just because you are super into guns does not give you any special insight into this issue, to the contrary.

You have argued against ANY gun reform baselessly, when there is obviously a huge public need for it.

You seeemed to skip a few school shooting in your 2012 - 2022 gap. And the difference is these are KIDS IN SCHOOL. Killed with guns obtained by CLEARLY INSANE PEOPLE. But no solution to that right? Although every other country can solve the problem.. you must be right.. i mean you have so many guns you must be an expert and we sheep just dont get it
 
Of course that was part of it. Obviously the SS didn't exist at that time, but the British absolutely beat and intimidated people before the Revolutionary War, and it was exactly because enough of the beaten and intimidated people were armed and resisted that the Revolutionary War happened.

Look no further than the 3rd Amendment for more evidence that the authors of the 2nd were concerned with home invasions by the government.



Except that the modern world keeps giving us examples to the contrary. See for one example the persistent insurgency in Afghanistan that sent us packing.


I think Navalny wasn't alone. I think there were a whole lot of people like Navalny and aligned with Navalny that WERE quietly and not-so-quietly rounded up, imprisoned, executed, exiled, beaten, polonium'd, or otherwise intimidated. And yes, maybe it's a stretch to say that if some of them had been armed that some or any of them would have resisted, and the manner of oppression might have been altered.

It's funny that you bring up the Russians. A few months ago, Andrei Zeltser died resisting exactly this kind of oppression from the Russian "SS" in Belarus- here's the video (NSFW). He had two shells in that shotgun, and he made them count before he died. How much did this matter in the end? I don't know. One or a few people fighting and dying to resist absolutely can change the world.

No one expected Ukraine to put up a fight. I bet if their president had fled to Turkey or Belgium and just gave speeches in absentia the war there would've gone a lot differently. Maybe he was inspired by other people who fought, even when losing was likely.

It's hard to predict how a person or a people will react. Freedom and democracy are fragile. Sometimes they fail. Sometimes people give up.

The Arab Spring failed, mostly. Afghanistan had 20 years of our blood and treasure to build a representative government, and they folded in weeks to the Taliban when we left. The only thing that's certain is that helpless and unarmed people can't resist.

Are you thinking these are compelling examples of how widespread gun ownership is working? Afghan insurgency wasn't about gun ownership, it was about a complete cultural mismatch and an invading foreign force. Afghanistan didn't have a right to bear arms, they had Russia and Iran sending them tons of weapons. Same for the Arab spring--the lack of right to bear arms is not why the Taliban won, it was complete ignorance of their culture.

Shooting at people right before you die is romantic and all but it doesn't change the fact that you are still actually dead. I have trouble finding this line of reasoning even remotely compelling as a reason to support the second amendment. There is no scenario where the people of THIS country would be able to use their record-breaking stockpile of guns to stop a fascist takeover (imo more likely to use guns to support a fascist takeover) or stop black ops kidnappings against high value targets. The amendment was made in the colonial times when getting all of the villagers together with a musket was a reasonable strategy to defend yourself against native raids or the red coats and any protection that offered then has been rendered completely obsolete by modern technology. It is pure fantasy to think that you would be able to do anything useful if Seal team 6 breaks in to your house because when they do that it is going to be a surprise, they will know exactly where you are, and unless you sleep with your ar15 loaded in your arms you aren't going to have a chance to do anything before you get incapacitated.
 
The "cultural war" is the one where the older generation stops pretending shooting and owning guns is a normal acceptable hobby.

Going to the range and entering shooting competitions? Its unfathomable to most normal american non gun nuts.. - sorry maybe try something else with your spare time.

Just because you are super into guns does not give you any special insight into this issue, to the contrary.
I bet you I could guess what state you are from in about 6-8 guesses and I could probably name about 30 that you’re not from without any misses based on your comment about shooting as a sport.

He (pgg) seems to know the constitution and the law as well as the current legislation efforts regarding guns more than anyone else. You may disagree with him, but he knows the issue better than anyone else I have seen post in this thread. I don’t think that is even debatable. Just because you wholeheartedly disagree with what he states does not make his factual statements invalid.

I would say that someone who is military, shoots for sport, and knows the constitution and gun laws is going to know more about the issue than likely 98% of people who have none of those things in their knowledge base. Many here disagree with the opinion portion of his argument, but his facts seem pretty straightforward. It would be like me arguing with a car aficionado who is also an auto mechanic. I can tell him my opinions about cars but he’s gonna know far more about the subject.
It’s like my non medical wife telling me what she thinks about medical topics and then telling me I’m wrong when I tell her the truth about the topic at hand.

Him being “super into guns” is exactly why he DOES have “special insight” into the topic. You don’t agree with his special insight, but he has it. You may too; I have no idea. However, based on your comments, I would guess you have no expertise in the topic of firearms.
 
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Shooting at people right before you die is romantic and all but it doesn't change the fact that you are still actually dead..
If not for a lot of heroes shooting at people right before they died, we might all be speaking German right now. I believe we just celebrated the anniversary of that event June 6th (as well as Memorial Day).
 
The "cultural war" is the one where the older generation stops pretending shooting and owning guns is a normal acceptable hobby.

Going to the range and entering shooting competitions? Its unfathomable to most normal american non gun nuts.. - sorry maybe try something else with your spare time.

Just because you are super into guns does not give you any special insight into this issue, to the contrary.

You have argued against ANY gun reform baselessly, when there is obviously a huge public need for it.

You seeemed to skip a few school shooting in your 2012 - 2022 gap. And the difference is these are KIDS IN SCHOOL. Killed with guns obtained by CLEARLY INSANE PEOPLE. But no solution to that right? Although every other country can solve the problem.. you must be right.. i mean you have so many guns you must be an expert and we sheep just dont get it
Somebody else might say: The "cultural war" is the one where the younger generation stops pretending that owning and playing graphically violent video games is a normal acceptable hobby.

More older generations did own guns for the purpose of hunting for food. Many of those living during the Great Depression sustained themselves and their families by hunting and fishing. Those weren't luxury hobbies; they were survival skills. And, in certain parts of the country, hunting for food is still a way of life (and a multi-generational activity). My daughter went to college in different state about 3 hours away. In that county they cancelled school on the first day of deer hunting season so that families could hunt together. In another state about 5 hours from home, her friend hit a deer while driving. At the same time the police showed up, so did a guy who heard of the deer kill on his police scanner and came to claim the meat. While my grandparents and parents both grew up hunting, my brothers only attended turkey shoots as kids, and I have never hunted. But I don't turn my nose up at people (probably in a lower economic class than me) who hunt for food/sport or practice marksmanship as a hobby. Your comments about what others do in their spare time are condescending and lack any rationality.
 
Going to the range and entering shooting competitions? Its unfathomable to most normal american non gun nuts.. - sorry maybe try something else with your spare time.
I'm confused by this sentence because shooting is literally an Olympic competition which ironically the US did about average at the event.
 
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Are you thinking these are compelling examples of how widespread gun ownership is working? Afghan insurgency wasn't about gun ownership, it was about a complete cultural mismatch and an invading foreign force. Afghanistan didn't have a right to bear arms, they had Russia and Iran sending them tons of weapons. Same for the Arab spring--the lack of right to bear arms is not why the Taliban won, it was complete ignorance of their culture.

Shooting at people right before you die is romantic and all but it doesn't change the fact that you are still actually dead. I have trouble finding this line of reasoning even remotely compelling as a reason to support the second amendment. There is no scenario where the people of THIS country would be able to use their record-breaking stockpile of guns to stop a fascist takeover (imo more likely to use guns to support a fascist takeover) or stop black ops kidnappings against high value targets. The amendment was made in the colonial times when getting all of the villagers together with a musket was a reasonable strategy to defend yourself against native raids or the red coats and any protection that offered then has been rendered completely obsolete by modern technology. It is pure fantasy to think that you would be able to do anything useful if Seal team 6 breaks in to your house because when they do that it is going to be a surprise, they will know exactly where you are, and unless you sleep with your ar15 loaded in your arms you aren't going to have a chance to do anything before you get incapacitated.

The Taliban were effective against allied forces because small arms can be effective in military occupations. It does not matter how or why the Taliban had guns, the point is that they did. The same concept is true in Ukraine today, who have been effective against Russia with retail drones and small arms.

I don't think that the US military would be the same as it is today in an oppressive government scenario. The military, and government, would likely fracture, leaving it much less capable than it is now. Which leaves me agreeing with @pgg that the presence of firearms would be a deterrent. Just imagine how policing could change if the government knew that citizens were not armed.
 
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The Taliban were effective against allied forces because small arms can be effective in military occupations. It does not matter how or why the Taliban had guns, the point is that they did. The same concept is true in Ukraine today, who have been effective against Russia with retail drones and small arms.

I don't think that the US military would be the same as it is today in an oppressive government scenario. The military, and government, would likely fracture, leaving it much less capable than it is now. Which leaves me agreeing with @pgg that the presence of firearms would be a deterrent. Just imagine how policing could change if the government knew that citizens were not armed.
You think the Taliban used small arms exclusively? What about explosives? Did those play any role? Or was it just a bunch of Glocks shooting 9 mm that took out soldiers?

This is a ridiculous. The military fractured? Those people are there for each other and if the president says the democrats are trying to steal the election and Pelosi needs to be arrested you think there is going to be a mutiny over that and they start killing each other? Even if they did and there were warring governmental factions you think you strapping on your rifle is going to accomplish what exactly? Go shoot all the people you don't agree with? Just shoot anyone who approaches you? What if your neighbor supports the other side, just shoot each other? And that is somehow better than not having guns?
 
You think the Taliban used small arms exclusively? What about explosives? Did those play any role? Or was it just a bunch of Glocks shooting 9 mm that took out soldiers?

This is a ridiculous. The military fractured? Those people are there for each other and if the president says the democrats are trying to steal the election and Pelosi needs to be arrested you think there is going to be a mutiny over that and they start killing each other? Even if they did and there were warring governmental factions you think you strapping on your rifle is going to accomplish what exactly? Go shoot all the people you don't agree with? Just shoot anyone who approaches you? What if your neighbor supports the other side, just shoot each other? And that is somehow better than not having guns?

If the military was used against the population most soldiers would defect and recruitment would dry up. There would be a skill and brain drain from the military. Most people I know who serve do so because they want to defend the constitution, not act as a national police force for an illegitimate government. Worse yet, for the government, it would destroy the economy and tax base.

Who knows how a multitude of scenarios would play out? I think most people would go along to get along because they want peace. All I can be sure of is I would rather the citizenry be armed in such a scenario than not. What advantage is it to give up your guns in a home invasion, national or economic disaster, or breakdown of our public institutions? There are none.
 
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If the military was used against the population most soldiers would defect and recruitment would dry up. There would be a skill and brain drain from the military. Most people I know who serve do so because they want to defend the constitution, not act as a national police force for an illegitimate government. Worse yet, for the government, it would destroy the economy and tax base.

Who knows how a multitude of scenarios would play out? I think most people would go along to get along because they want peace. All I can be sure of is I would rather the citizenry be armed in such a scenario than not. What advantage is it to give up your guns in a home invasion, national or economic disaster, or breakdown of our public institutions? There are none.
The argument that the guns are necessary to protect against tyranny is what we are talking about right? That a critical mass of the citizenry, a significant minority of whom are social media educated idiots who think the election was stolen or that 1/6 is the greatest movement of all time are supposed to protect the constitution and the country from oppression with their guns is pure delusion.
 
The argument that the guns are necessary to protect against tyranny is what we are talking about right? That the critical mass of social media educated idiots who think the election was stolen or that 1/6 is the greatest movement of all time are supposed to protect the constitution with their guns is pure delusion.
I think you’re not well.
 
I'm confused by this sentence because shooting is literally an Olympic competition which ironically the US did about average at the event.

Eh, I wouldn't say that just because something is an Olympic sport that it has relevance to American culture. There's also an Olympic sport where they cross country ski for a while, stop and shoot some targets, and then start cross country skiing some more. I bet most Americans wouldn't know it's an Olympic sport. And I don't think there's a lot of cross over between Americans who shoot guns for funsies and those who cross country ski.
 
The argument that the guns are necessary to protect against tyranny is what we are talking about right? That a critical mass of the citizenry, a significant minority of whom are social media educated idiots who think the election was stolen or that 1/6 is the greatest movement of all time are supposed to protect the constitution and the country from oppression with their guns is pure delusion.
Some people choose to live in an alternate universe:

 
I bet you I could guess what state you are from in about 6-8 guesses and I could probably name about 30 that you’re not from without any misses based on your comment about shooting as a sport.

He (pgg) seems to know the constitution and the law as well as the current legislation efforts regarding guns more than anyone else. You may disagree with him, but he knows the issue better than anyone else I have seen post in this thread. I don’t think that is even debatable. Just because you wholeheartedly disagree with what he states does not make his factual statements invalid.

I would say that someone who is military, shoots for sport, and knows the constitution and gun laws is going to know more about the issue than likely 98% of people who have none of those things in their knowledge base. Many here disagree with the opinion portion of his argument, but his facts seem pretty straightforward. It would be like me arguing with a car aficionado who is also an auto mechanic. I can tell him my opinions about cars but he’s gonna know far more about the subject.
It’s like my non medical wife telling me what she thinks about medical topics and then telling me I’m wrong when I tell her the truth about the topic at hand.

Him being “super into guns” is exactly why he DOES have “special insight” into the topic. You don’t agree with his special insight, but he has it. You may too; I have no idea. However, based on your comments, I would guess you have no expertise in the topic of firearms.

Just curious - by chance do more Americans happen to live in those 6-8 guesses of states than all of the other 30 combined where shooting is popular? Yes, almost assuredly so. And while it may hold little relevance to you a lot of Americans don't care for the fact that they're being held hostage on lots of issues because states where no one lives hold a lot of power relatively speaking.

@pgg knows a lot about the issue, you're right. There's no debate there. Does that mean we all need to just trust him and do what he says regarding school shootings and gun control? Absolutely not. We all hold our own beliefs and thoughts on the issue. You don't really need to be much of an expert on anything to believe very strongly that our children need to be safe while at school and adults need to find ways to ensure their safety.
 
@Gern Blansten I reread your post and get what you're saying. Everyone here has a right to an opinion on guns and school shootings, but you're correct, @pgg does have insight because he knows guns and he reads a lot on guns. Still, and I don't mean to dismiss his knowledge base on the facts, but the reality is that historically there hasn't been that much federal legislation regarding guns and SCOTUS hasn't done a ton on 2A. Seriously, for like 200 years no one said a peep on whether or not 2A was even relevant for individuals and gun ownership. It's also quite telling, regardless of which side of the gun debate you fall on, that Trump-appointed judges everywhere are taking up gun legislation now, and likely further extending 2A rights (CA and soon NY), even as our society moves more and more on the opinion of believing we need restrictions on purchasing and owning guns.

But polls on guns are just like polls on anything else. They don't reflect reality when it comes time to vote. The people who feel very strongly about guns, and that's mostly pro-gun people, are going to vote to protect and extend rights. They show up at the polls. While the rest of society who doesn't agree or thinks we need restrictions can't be bothered to show up to vote, particularly when it's local/state elections. Apathy in our country is a problem, and that apathy extends all the way down to depressed apathetic teenagers who show up at schools and kill innocent teachers and kids.
 
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So I agree, and I said in a prior post the true solution is really just a multi-decade evolution of our society into a better one. The problem there is A.) active social/political changes to speed this up are both impractical and likely impossible to know, B.) we can’t agree on what’s more likely to affect the change we want let alone WHAT the changes we want are C.) if we try to let this occur organically there’s no guarantee we evolve rather than devolve into a worse state, and finally D.) we don’t have the time to wait.

So that leaves us with doing something actively imo.

I also agree that if you just look at statistics then of course handguns cause more deaths in this country. By a lot. Most crime or suicides are undertaken by handguns. So sure, I’d love to just magically disappear all handguns and “ARs” (I fully admit not knowing the semantics or definitions as you would) but I also fully recognize there’s a ZERO percent chance we get rid of handguns in this country. Even if we banned the sale/import of handguns in the US, there’s millions here. They’re not going away.

But I’d absolutely argue that 20 dead grade school kids murdered by a short barrel semi auto rifle is worse than 100 handgun perpetrated murders. There’s undoubtedly a socioeconomic bias to that statement, and I am not saying those 100 victims deserved it by any means. Many are likely innocent bystanders, many more are victims of circumstance etc. But holy crap, we can’t be ok with kids gunned down in school. There’s a line somewhere, but that’s absolutely across it.

And lastly, the idea that if we banned ARs, or made them incredibly expensive or regulated them into an almost intolerable annoyance to acquire that handguns would just replace them…. Is of course absolutely true. But you and I both know, you can’t hit anything with a pistol unless quite practiced and you aren’t having an entire police squad afraid of a guy with 6 pistols in his belt like you are with a kid with an AR.

Slippery slope aside, we can reduce these completely senseless public shootings, if not in number of events, in numbers killed by reducing the availability of ARs. Do we still have a gun problem in this country if we do that? Yes. Is incremental change a change not worth doing? No.

Eh, I wouldn't say that just because something is an Olympic sport that it has relevance to American culture. There's also an Olympic sport where they cross country ski for a while, stop and shoot some targets, and then start cross country skiing some more. I bet most Americans wouldn't know it's an Olympic sport. And I don't think there's a lot of cross over between Americans who shoot guns for funsies and those who cross country ski.
Couldn't disagree more. If you have ever hustled around a mountain at 10,000 feet to stalk a group of elk, or sheep and then try to hold steady with a heart rate of 130, you can appreciate the biathlon.
 
Couldn't disagree more. If you have ever hustled around a mountain at 10,000 feet to stalk a group of elk, or sheep and then try to hold steady with a heart rate of 130, you can appreciate the biathlon.

We can agree to disagree. Your personal appreciation doesn’t make it nationally relevant. Hot dog eating contests are talked about and watched by more Americans than the biathlon. The US has never medaled in the biathlon.

You know what else is a big problem in every single US state where guns and heading to the range is a popular activity? Morbid obesity.
 
Some people choose to live in an alternate universe:


A6A6A14D-0436-461F-BA3A-347CBF9B55B1.jpeg


I mean this is the network that says that real men tan their nutsacks.
 
I bet you I could guess what state you are from in about 6-8 guesses and I could probably name about 30 that you’re not from without any misses based on your comment about shooting as a sport.

He (pgg) seems to know the constitution and the law as well as the current legislation efforts regarding guns more than anyone else. You may disagree with him, but he knows the issue better than anyone else I have seen post in this thread. I don’t think that is even debatable. Just because you wholeheartedly disagree with what he states does not make his factual statements invalid.

I would say that someone who is military, shoots for sport, and knows the constitution and gun laws is going to know more about the issue than likely 98% of people who have none of those things in their knowledge base. Many here disagree with the opinion portion of his argument, but his facts seem pretty straightforward. It would be like me arguing with a car aficionado who is also an auto mechanic. I can tell him my opinions about cars but he’s gonna know far more about the subject.
It’s like my non medical wife telling me what she thinks about medical topics and then telling me I’m wrong when I tell her the truth about the topic at hand.

Him being “super into guns” is exactly why he DOES have “special insight” into the topic. You don’t agree with his special insight, but he has it. You may too; I have no idea. However, based on your comments, I would guess you have no expertise in the topic of firearms.

Yeah not exactly.

Does the car salesman know about cars?

Is he unbiased to tell you his opinion about cars ?

He’s using his knowledge to skew facts and do what’s best for his own interests ..

I’m not going to be “educated” about the insane history of gun laws thus far by current gun nuts. And who cares about second amendment. This is all just noise to not do what is clearly the right thing.

And yeah I’m from one of those fancy states that controls the TV programs and has all them top universities - where most of the population lives !! You know the same ones that were on the northern side in the civil war ..
 
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You know what else is a big problem in every single US state where guns and heading to the range is a popular activity? Morbid obesity.
Can you name me a state where morbid obesity is not a problem? I haven’t seen one. It’s a U.S. problem and unrelated to feelings about guns. This seems like just a jab at states that you think are full of stupid people. You know, the states where everyone from Chicago, NYC, LA, SF, etc. are moving to.
 
I'm confused by this sentence because shooting is literally an Olympic competition which ironically the US did about average at the event.

This is whataboutism.

No other country has the culture around guns that we have.

Every strip mall has gun stores and shooting ranges. Think it’s like that in other countries ?

I was in Florida recently and I saw a big neon sign that said “Machine Guns”

Do you think those gun range folks with the huge gun and the huge clip are practicing for an Olympic shooting competition? Or are they living an insane Batman vigilante fantasy ?

Do you think this uniquely American culture of gun glorification is unrelated to our uniquely American mass shooting tragedies ?
 
Yeah not exactly.

Does the car salesman know about cars?

Is he unbiased to tell you his opinion about cars ?

He’s using his knowledge to skew facts and do what’s best for his own interests ..

I’m not going to be “educated” about the insane history of gun laws thus far by current gun nuts. And who cares about second amendment. This is all just noise to not do what is clearly the right thing.

And yeah I’m from one of those fancy states that controls the TV programs - where most of the population lives !!
I’m not discussing car salesmen. You’re comparing a soldier trained in firearms and one who shoots for sport to a car salesmen with regards to knowledge of their trade? I don’t think you understand the point I was making.

Pride about living in the same area where they make the “TV programs” is telling. I have access to about 300 channels of your TV programs. About 1% of it is watchable. I don’t really think you understand how people feel about your Hollywood stars beyond the people who watch TMZ and fawn all over them. Most of the U.S. feel that they live in a fantasy world and should keep their political and life opinions to themselves.

The US population is actively fleeing those states and headed to places like Idaho, Utah, Texas, Montana, Wyoming and many others. California is losing house seats due to population decline. Opinions coming from California (and their movie stars) are laughed at and disregarded in most other states.

Liberal Big city people live in a bubble and have no idea what life is like in the “flyover states.” That has been demonstrated by several here.
 
Nope. They are going to lose the House and Senate over inflation, gas prices, and the stock market. You want to think that gun owners are going to the polls because they don’t want background checks, but the reality is they are voting because gas is $5 per gallon.
You're probably right. I thought they'd hold both after the abortion leak. But like Carville said, it's the economy.

Gun owners won't go to the polls over background checks. But they see all the other ideas being floated, and they absolutely will over those things.
 
Just curious - by chance do more Americans happen to live in those 6-8 guesses of states than all of the other 30 combined where shooting is popular? Yes, almost assuredly so. And while it may hold little relevance to you a lot of Americans don't care for the fact that they're being held hostage on lots of issues because states where no one lives hold a lot of power relatively speaking.

@pgg knows a lot about the issue, you're right. There's no debate there. Does that mean we all need to just trust him and do what he says regarding school shootings and gun control? Absolutely not. We all hold our own beliefs and thoughts on the issue. You don't really need to be much of an expert on anything to believe very strongly that our children need to be safe while at school and adults need to find ways to ensure their safety.
I agree. But Hoya basically says he is the exact opposite of an expert.
The governmental system is designed around checks and balances. The electoral college is part of that. So that 3-4 populous states do not control everything.
As I said, pgg is stating facts. He is explaining why the proposed gun control will not work. As he stated, he has proposed some ideas that may work, but just gathering up all of the guns and banning them is not reasonable or achievable. He is being a realist and stating why the proposals are folly. I am a non gun owner, but I agree with him that it will not, cannot, and should not ever happen. 2A is another part of the checks and balances of government that was put in place early on in this country.
I think the proposals he has mentioned have merit. I don’t think the tyrannical confiscation of all guns is the correct answer.
 
I’m not discussing car salesmen. You’re comparing a soldier trained in firearms and one who shoots for sport to a car salesmen with regards to knowledge of their trade? I don’t think you understand the point I was making.

Pride about living in the same area where they make the “TV programs” is telling. I have access to about 300 channels of your TV programs. About 1% of it is watchable. I don’t really think you understand how people feel about your Hollywood stars beyond the people who watch TMZ and fawn all over them. Most of the U.S. feel that they live in a fantasy world and should keep their political and life opinions to themselves.

The US population is actively fleeing those states and headed to places like Idaho, Utah, Texas, Montana, Wyoming and many others. California is losing house seats due to population decline. Opinions coming from California (and their movie stars) are laughed at and disregarded in most other states.

Liberal Big city people live in a bubble and have no idea what life is like in the “flyover states.” That has been demonstrated by several here.

Hmmm.....is that why Mehmet Oz just won the GOP nomination in PA? I assure you, if Matthew McConaughey ran for Governor he'd have a better chance than Beto. Ronald Reagan was a Hollywood star.

Voting statistics would show that if people are fleeing CA and NY for WY, TX, and UT then guess what? Those states get more blue, not more red. I do agree that opinions of movie stars should be disregarded, but unfortunately, they're not.
 
Hmmm.....is that why Mehmet Oz just won the GOP nomination in PA? I assure you, if Matthew McConaughey ran for Governor he'd have a better chance than Beto. Ronald Reagan was a Hollywood star.

Voting statistics would show that if people are fleeing CA and NY for WY, TX, and UT then guess what? Those states get more blue, not more red. I do agree that opinions of movie stars should be disregarded, but unfortunately, they're not.
Good points, but Matthew is a young popular, mostly sensible, and educated guy from Texas. Oz is a physician.
I wouldn’t say that they are representative of your typical Hollywood star.
There are certainly a few anomalies like Reagan and Arnold Schwarzenegger, but those aren’t the norm.
The people fleeing from those states for economic reasons are continuing to vote for the same dumb policies that were the downfall of where they came from. Many of them are following the companies that fled. Many don’t understand the cause and effect of the way they vote and how it destroys the economy. The states receiving this influx are not happy about it, from what I’ve been told. Like leaving the Jehovah’s Witness church as an adult. You understand that you have severe disagreements with many of their beliefs, but some other beliefs are just hardwired from a very young age.
 
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He’s using his knowledge to skew facts and do what’s best for his own interests ..

I’m not going to be “educated” about the insane history of gun laws thus far by current gun nuts. And who cares about second amendment. This is all just noise to not do what is clearly the right thing.
You can (and obviously do) disagree with my opinions and ideas about what we should and shouldn't do. But why are you disinterested in historical and current facts, simply because they come from me? Do you think they're inaccurate? How exactly is what I've written skewed?

Who cares about the second Amendment? The same kind of people who care about the 1st and the rest of them. Should be every one of us.

Is this really the approach you want to take?
 
if the president says the democrats are trying to steal the election and Pelosi needs to be arrested you think there is going to be a mutiny over that and they start killing each other?
What an odd thing to say.

You know that when that idea was actually floated by Trump, the senior military leaders refused to consider it? Every general, admiral, and new recruit knows the military is completely subordinate to civilian rule and the law.

There wouldn't be a mutiny within the ranks because the military would refuse to intervene in a disputed election. Unless you mean a "mutiny" when the entirety of the military refuses to carry out unlawful orders from a delusional criminal CIC?
 
I'm confused by this sentence because shooting is literally an Olympic competition which ironically the US did about average at the event.
The Olympics have watered down their shooting events so much (just airguns and some 22s and skeet at this point) mainly because many participating countries have such draconian laws that people can't use or learn to shoot other firearms.

Most Americans are shooting other disciplines once out of high school and the airgun / smallbore sports they start off in. The main things I do (highpower service rifle, bullseye pistol, service pistol) aren't Olympic sports.

And that's OK. The Olympics are above all a political event that happens to involve some athletes, with all the compromise and corruption that implies. Every four years it descends on some country like a plague of locusts and somehow the promised economic benefits just don't appear. But there's some show of international unity and cooperation for a while and that's nice.

There are more interesting, less corrupt, and less exploitative international shooting competitions than what the Olympics offer. ISSF is the a more relevant administrative body than the Olympics.
 
You can (and obviously do) disagree with my opinions and ideas about what we should and shouldn't do. But why are you disinterested in historical and current facts, simply because they come from me? Do you think they're inaccurate? How exactly is what I've written skewed?

Who cares about the second Amendment? The same kind of people who care about the 1st and the rest of them. Should be every one of us.

Is this really the approach you want to take?

Absolutely. I don’t care about a part of a document written 250 yrs ago that has now become irrelevant and problematic. It’s like when people quote the Bible. Things change. It doesn’t make sense today to have our current gun laws. We can’t be afraid to change our thinking as times change. Like with slavery. Like with civil rights. People stood behind documents and old mentalities then too. They had “facts”. Like “the assault weapons ban didn’t work” that was a different time and that is just your own biased opinion. There is no actual unrefutable bipartisan data to corroborate that. It fits your narrative , so you state it.

There is absolutely no evidence that gun control will not help this horrible problem. The perceived evidence is opinion and smoke and mirrors from other biased groups that I won’t buy for a second.

The “historical facts” beside being irrelevant to today are being skewed by someone with a clear interest in one side.

Again my question , Do you think it is a coincidence that our gun laws , gun culture, and mad shootings, while all only unique to America, are just a coincidence ?
 
Absolutely. I don’t care about a part of a document written 250 yrs ago that has now become irrelevant and problematic.
Then amend the document. That's the remedy.

It’s like when people quote the Bible. Things change. It doesn’t make sense today to have our current gun laws. We can’t be afraid to change our thinking as times change.
Then amend the document.

Or challenge its interpretation in court with data from historic and current events.

Like with slavery. Like with civil rights.
Huh. Seems like the remedy for those failures in the document were ...

... to amend it and go to court.

This isn't the first time in this thread someone's brought up slavery and civil rights as flaws in the Constitution, but somehow they and you haven't connected the dots that if there was a simple (simple, not easy) legal remedy for those things, that the same can be done for the flaw you perceive in the 2nd Amendment.

People stood behind documents and old mentalities then too. They had “facts”. Like “the assault weapons ban didn’t work” that was a different time and that is just your own biased opinion. There is no actual unrefutable bipartisan data to corroborate that. It fits your narrative , so you state it.
Yes, there's some conflicting data. It's a complicated subject.

There is absolutely no evidence that gun control will not help this horrible problem. The perceived evidence is opinion and smoke and mirrors from other biased groups that I won’t buy for a second.

The “historical facts” beside being irrelevant to today are being skewed by someone with a clear interest in one side.

Again my question , Do you think it is a coincidence that our gun laws , gun culture, and mad shootings, while all only unique to America, are just a coincidence ?
Not at all. Of course our relatively easy access to weapons worsens the severity of violent crime when it occurs. I dont think anyone disputes that.

It's also indisputable that lawfully armed people deter and stop some crimes. If you want to opine that defensive uses of firearms shouldn't "count" for some reason, we can agree to disagree on that.

The question is what to do about violent crime, and/or access to weapons - and what the highest law of the land has to say about some of those ideas, and what other consequences and risks might be associated with those actions.

You can't have a complete and honest discussion about any of those things in isolation, which is why it's unfortunate that you want to dismiss or ignore centuries of history and other current events.
 
If we have to go back 25 years to identify an event where machine guns were used in a high profile crime, maybe they're not really a problem.

This is exactly my point here. Go one level deeper. *Why* are machine guns not a problem? Because NFA and FOPA made automatic weapons extremely regulated, extremely scarce, and extremely expensive .

I agree with you in that I don't like the classism of only rich people being able to afford automatic weapons, but it is a plain-as-day fact that the regulation associated with NFA/FOPA has ensured that automatic weapons are

1. Still available
2. Only possessed by law-abiding gun owners
3. Are essentially never used in crimes

The result of NFA/FOPA speaks for itself, but imo the way it should be modified is to remove the Hughes amendment, make weapons affordable, but keep the regulation, aka background checks and registries, in full force (with any onerous registration costs being picked up by the taxpayer, not the end user who gets penalized for being poor or middle class). And not only in full force for automatic weapons / destructive devices, but eventually extended to most other semi-automatic arms.

I know you fervently oppose the idea of registration or restriction on common small arms because of the notion that it deters [a handful of government thugs breaking into your house - style] tyranny, but I just don't buy it. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about the Branch Davidians or Breonna Taylor. If the state or federal government wants to violently intrude, they're getting in. And in the latter case even if you (or your boyfriend) resists tyranny with your gun, the best you can hope for, assuming you're not killed at the scene by what is going to be clearly superior firepower, is that the inevitable attempted murder charge leveled against you is dropped.

The fact is, in this age of militarized police the thugs are not going to be deterred by your ownership of a semiauto SBAR. Which is why I don't want to ban any of these weapons, but I also don't mind if there is an age limit, waiting period, extensive background checks, or a registry.
 
We can agree to disagree. Your personal appreciation doesn’t make it nationally relevant. Hot dog eating contests are talked about and watched by more Americans than the biathlon. The US has never medaled in the biathlon.

You know what else is a big problem in every single US state where guns and heading to the range is a popular activity? Morbid obesity.
And we will disagree. Not sure what the fat joke adds to the discussion but I guess some people need to feel superior at the expense of others.
 
And we will disagree. Not sure what the fat joke adds to the discussion but I guess some people need to feel superior at the expense of others.

Dude relax. Gun lovers heavily populate in red states. I’ve lived in one my whole life. Know what doesn’t generally happen in those states? Exercise, especially cross country skiing, the other part of the biathlon outside of shooting targets. Which explains why the US has never won a medal!
 
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