I promise not to debate you…

[chessknt]

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Voter suppresion? Myth. GOP America? Myth and fear. We are a moderate nation and while primary’s are about the base, winning general elections in many states requires moderates. The Latinos of America aren’t woke and don’t want to be. The Dems have become the party of AOC and Bernie Sanders. While some of you may like the New Democratic party the majority of voters will reject their agenda because the focus is on far left ideology not just far left economics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/21/voting-is-surging-georgia-despite-controversial-new-election-law/

Is the governor of your state and future POTUS 2024 a moderate by your definition?

 

[Onefellswoop87]

Is the governor of your state and future POTUS 2024 a moderate by your definition?

Of course. In my eyes, I and everyone I agree with is a moderate and everyone else is an extreme right/left wing. Is this your first internet debate?

 

[vector2]

Voter suppresion? Myth. GOP America? Myth and fear. We are a moderate nation and while primary’s are about the base, winning general elections in many states requires moderates. The Latinos of America aren’t woke and don’t want to be. The Dems have become the party of AOC and Bernie Sanders. While some of you may like the New Democratic party the majority of voters will reject their agenda because the focus is on far left ideology not just far left economics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/21/voting-is-surging-georgia-despite-controversial-new-election-law/

They absolutely are engaging in voter suppression. And you're either willfully ignorant due to partisan reasons or just asleep at the wheel if you don't think so. Just look at what the GOP is trying to do in your own state. Or what they're doing in Texas.

As far as the article you posted, did you even read it? The point it makes is that the GA GOP absolutely is trying to engage in voter suppression...but those opposed to their antics fought the worst proposals and are doing damage control to overcome the parts that did pass.

For instance,

But much of the rhetoric directed at the bill was actually based on draft legislation that was subsequently scaled back. Local and national organizations, including the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce and Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines, had put enormous pressure on state Republicans to strip out some of the more contentious provisions. Republicans agreed to drop, for instance, language barring most Georgians from voting by mail and curtailing early voting on weekends. They even expanded early-voting hours in the final bill.​

It took pressure from Delta Air Lines to prevent the GOP from passing the entirety of the horribly racist trainwreck bill they wanted. But still, all the racism couldn't be avoided as they still managed to get rid of Sunday voting and Souls to the Polls, which obviously is primarily used by dem leaning black voters.

Moral of the story: don't conflate the fact that the GOP sometimes fails at their voter suppression attempts with the fact that they are, indeed, engaging/trying to engage in it.

 

[TeslaCoil]

Addressing the psycho/social issues of people instead of inanimate objects. What a novel idea. We talk about it, but someone actually did it.

Yes. And it worked, therefore its proven. Which begs the question, why hasn't it been done here? And the only answer I can think of is that its not part of the actual agenda.

 

[pgg]

Regarding policy, we are not alone in the world for having this problem. One excellent example is Germany. They had the same issue with school shootings. In order to solve the problem they implemented better social supports- psychologists in schools etc. The problem disappeared. But good luck trying to get American politicians to care about the actual people. Our system is all about the money and the lobby. Thats the real problem. Misplaced priorities.

Yes, I agree.

The solution to violent crime is cultural and includes government programs like WIC, healthcare, childcare subsidies for the poor, the promise of economic opportunity, worker protections, etc. But it's all hard and slow and none of it makes good sound bites for 24h media outlets.

 

[GravelRider]

Addressing the psycho/social issues of people instead of inanimate objects. What a novel idea. We talk about it, but someone actually did it.

I’m still waiting on that explanation on how a better mental health infrastructure would have prevented something like the recent massacre in Texas. I’m all for expanding mental health programs and addressing social issues. But we all know that “mental health” is a sleight of hand and distraction put forth by conservative media and politicians. What’s your mental health proposal and how would it have helped here?

 

[GravelRider]

Yes, I agree.

The solution to violent crime is cultural and includes government programs like WIC, healthcare, childcare subsidies for the poor, the promise of economic opportunity, worker protections, etc. But it's all hard and slow and none of it makes good sound bites for 24h media outlets.

Yup. Still waiting on all these mental health proposals. I think they’re going to be epic. With all this mental health talk, we are bound the be the happiest people on the planet. /s

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Yup. Still waiting on all these mental health proposals. I think they’re going to be epic. With all this mental health talk, we are bound the be the happiest people on the planet. /s

No sense arguing or debating at this point. The question is what are democrats going to do now moving forward?

 

[TeslaCoil]

I’m still waiting on that explanation on how a better mental health infrastructure would have prevented something like the recent massacre in Texas. I’m all for expanding mental health programs and addressing social issues. But we all know that “mental health” is a sleight of hand and distraction put forth by conservative media and politicians. What’s your mental health proposal and how would it have helped here?

Heres one-

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

 

[GravelRider]

No sense arguing or debating at this point. The question is what are democrats going to do now moving forward?

Honestly, I don’t think the democrats should do anything major on guns. Take the recent bill that just passed Congress as a win and move on. I do think somewhere they could make progress on guns is this whole idea of “gun culture.” I think one of the biggest problems with guns in this country is the way they are advertised and the silly culture that has formed around it. This LARPing with real guns thing has just gotten weird and a lot of it has to do with the way guns are advertised. I wouldn’t mind seeing some of that regulated. I think there is some precedent there with the tobacco industry.

Current gun culture reminds me of how I thought about marijuana culture in college. It’s fine that you smoke pot, but you don’t need to have marijuana leaves plastered all over your clothes and walls. It’s weird. I feel the same way about guns. I’m fine with people owning guns, but you don’t need to dress up and pretend that you are some special forces commando…with a beer gut.

 

[GravelRider]

Heres one-

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

How about something actionable proposed by a politician who keeps parroting the line “mental health?” We can post all sorts of academic links and discussions, but I want to see policy proposals.

 

[TeslaCoil]

How about something actionable proposed by a politician who keeps parroting the line “mental health?” We can post all sorts of academic links and discussions, but I want to see policy proposals.

More money into mental health supports. We all know about the mental health pandemic thats grossly and disgustingly neglected in this country. Put more counselors in schools. Do more mental health screenings in kids. Educate parents more on how to keep guns safely and keep their kids from getting guns. Etc etc. world policy has shown that strict gun laws dont prevent mass shootings.

 

[pgg]

Yup. Still waiting on all these mental health proposals. I think they’re going to be epic. With all this mental health talk, we are bound the be the happiest people on the planet. /s

I didn't say anything about mental health. I said we should build a better society and reap all those benefits - including reduced violent crime.

Before you laugh, WE DID THIS in the 80s and 90s. There was a steady decrease in crime during a sustained period of economic prosperity that spanned the Reagan through Clinton years.

Somehow, somehow, this country recovered from the divisive culture wars of the Vietnam and civil rights era, with a little stagflation thrown in for good measure. All in the shadow of the Cold War. You think things are rough now? Open a history book. This is the answer, but sure, go ahead, keep on wringing your hands in helpless despair about how it can't be done.

 

[pgg]

Honestly, I don’t think the democrats should do anything major on guns. Take the recent bill that just passed Congress as a win and move on. I do think somewhere they could make progress on guns is this whole idea of “gun culture.” I think one of the biggest problems with guns in this country is the way they are advertised and the silly culture that has formed around it. This LARPing with real guns thing has just gotten weird and a lot of it has to do with the way guns are advertised. I wouldn’t mind seeing some of that regulated. I think there is some precedent there with the tobacco industry.

Current gun culture reminds me of how I thought about marijuana culture in college. It’s fine that you smoke pot, but you don’t need to have marijuana leaves plastered all over your clothes and walls. It’s weird. I feel the same way about guns. I’m fine with people owning guns, but you don’t need to dress up and pretend that you are some special forces commando…with a beer gut.

I completely agree with this entire post.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

More money into mental health supports. We all know about the mental health pandemic thats grossly and disgustingly neglected in this country. Put more counselors in schools. Do more mental health screenings in kids. Educate parents more on how to keep guns safely and keep their kids from getting guns. Etc etc. world policy has shown that strict gun laws dont prevent mass shootings.

What world policy? Mass shootings is solely a US problem, unless you count the guns being used in wars… ironically, similar to the guns being used here.

No way guns are the problem. I mean the US definitely has crazier people so there likely is a correlation, but guns + crazy isn’t good.

 

[nimbus]

I’m still waiting on that explanation on how a better mental health infrastructure would have prevented something like the recent massacre in Texas. I’m all for expanding mental health programs and addressing social issues. But we all know that “mental health” is a sleight of hand and distraction put forth by conservative media and politicians. What’s your mental health proposal and how would it have helped here?

Conservative media and conservative politicians are not an advocates for the mental health of trouble young kids. In fact, nobody is. Even on this board, folks like to call them weak millenials and zoomers.

 

[GravelRider]

More money into mental health supports. We all know about the mental health pandemic thats grossly and disgustingly neglected in this country. Put more counselors in schools. Do more mental health screenings in kids. Educate parents more on how to keep guns safely and keep their kids from getting guns. Etc etc. world policy has shown that strict gun laws dont prevent mass shootings.

Ok. I’m in. Put your money where your mouth is. Propose policies that increase public spending on programs designed around mental health and improving society. The problem is that means spending money and possibly increasing taxes. Both are dirty words to the politicians that keep crying “mental health.”

 

[OptionOffense]

Conservative media and conservative politicians are not an advocates for the mental health of trouble young kids. In fact, nobody is. Even on this board, folks like to call them weak millenials and zoomers.

Neither are liberal politicians. At the end of the day, job #1 of parents are to make sure your children are taken care of. If you are waiting for someone else (the gubernmint) to do it.... not a smart idea cuz aint gonna happen.

 

[TeslaCoil]

What world policy? Mass shootings is solely a US problem, unless you count the guns being used in wars… ironically, similar to the guns being used here.

View attachment 356555

No way guns are the problem. I mean the US definitely has crazier people so there likely is a correlation, but guns + crazy isn’t good.

View attachment 356556

Do Countries With Stricter Gun Laws Really Have Fewer Homicides?

Ask a card-carrying member of the NRA and you'll get one answer. Ask a member of Everytown for Gun Safety and you'll get another. We look at the research that underlies this controversial topic.

people.howstuffworks.com

 

[TeslaCoil]

Ok. I’m in. Put your money where your mouth is. Propose policies that increase public spending on programs designed around mental health and improving society. The problem is that means spending money and possibly increasing taxes. Both are dirty words to the politicians that keep crying “mental health.”

A little less on gender studies in pakistan and a little more on our mental health crisis. Presto.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Do Countries With Stricter Gun Laws Really Have Fewer Homicides?

Ask a card-carrying member of the NRA and you'll get one answer. Ask a member of Everytown for Gun Safety and you'll get another. We look at the research that underlies this controversial topic.

people.howstuffworks.com

“But studies suggest that stricter state gun laws do make a difference. In a study published in the May 13, 2013, issue of JAMA Internal Medicine, researchers concluded that states with the most firearm legislation have the lowest rates of firearm-associated deaths, as well as the lowest rates of both murders and suicides with guns. The quarter of states with the strictest laws had 6.64 fewer deaths per 100,000 inhabitants than the quarter with the least regulation [source: Fleegler et al.].”

Makes sense.

 

[nimbus]

Neither are liberal politicians. At the end of the day, job #1 of parents are to make sure your children are taken care of. If you are waiting for someone else (the gubernmint) to do it.... not a smart idea cuz aint gonna happen.

That’s why I’m pro abortion.

 

[GravelRider]

A little less on gender studies in pakistan and a little more on our mental health crisis. Presto.

There it is again. Conservatives cannot go a minute without talking about gender stuff. It’s so bizarre. Get over it.

Point me to a politician who has made the kinds policy proposals you are talking about. That’s what I’m asking for yet you keep giving me vague suggestions about improving mental health. I’m still waiting…

 

[TeslaCoil]

Ye

“But studies suggest that stricter state gun laws do make a difference. In a study published in the May 13, 2013, issue of JAMA Internal Medicine, researchers concluded that states with the most firearm legislation have the lowest rates of firearm-associated deaths, as well as the lowest rates of both murders and suicides with guns. The quarter of states with the strictest laws had 6.64 fewer deaths per 100,000 inhabitants than the quarter with the least regulation [source: Fleegler et al.].”

Makes sense.

Yes of course but not gun bans.

 

[TeslaCoil]

There it is again. Conservatives cannot go a minute without talking about gender stuff. It’s so bizarre. Get over it.

Point me to a politician who has made the kinds policy proposals you are talking about. That’s what I’m asking for yet you keep giving me vague suggestions about improving mental health. I’m still waiting…

Umm I happen to not give a Szhit about gender anything. Im being serious. This was a thing. We actually pumped a lot of tax dollars into nonsense like literally gender studies in foreign countries. IMHO- nobody gives a serious crap about that. Pay for something else that actually matters and makes a difference to the American people.

 

[TeslaCoil]

There it is again. Conservatives cannot go a minute without talking about gender stuff. It’s so bizarre. Get over it.

Point me to a politician who has made the kinds policy proposals you are talking about. That’s what I’m asking for yet you keep giving me vague suggestions about improving mental health. I’m still waiting…

I just explained to you that its not in the agenda. These politicians dont care about US (the American people). Well, very few at least. Nobody is willing to do the research and go out on a limb and propose these changes. Thats exactly what I'm trying to say to you.

 

[GravelRider]

I just explained to you that its not in the agenda. These politicians dont care about US (the American people). Well, very few at least. Nobody is willing to do the research and go out on a limb and propose these changes. Thats exactly what I'm trying to say to you.

What I’m saying is that every single politician says “mental health” when kids get massacred. Then is gets parroted by the “media” that supports those politicians. Then the constituents who root for that team of politicians say “mental health,” but I have yet to see a concrete proposal out of any of them. It becomes as ridiculous of a meme as “thoughts & prayers.”

 

[GravelRider]

Umm I happen to not give a Szhit about gender anything. Im being serious. This was a thing. We actually pumped a lot of tax dollars into nonsense like literally gender studies in foreign countries. IMHO- nobody gives a serious crap about that. Pay for something else that actually matters and makes a difference to the American people.

I just get tired of hearing about gender stuff every single damn day. Most of it comes from conservatives going on some rant about gender or making a lame joke about it. The topic is as dull to me as covid.

 

[Neopolymath]

Ok. I’m in. Put your money where your mouth is. Propose policies that increase public spending on programs designed around mental health and improving society. The problem is that means spending money and possibly increasing taxes. Both are dirty words to the politicians that keep crying “mental health.”

Everyone wants nice roads and amenities like "X town" near us but no one understands that money is what pays for that. It's one of my biggest gripes of living in the South. It's *****ic thinking and pervasive.

 

[TeslaCoil]

What I’m saying is that every single politician says “mental health” when kids get massacred. Then is gets parroted by the “media” that supports those politicians. Then the constituents who root for that team of politicians say “mental health,” but I have yet to see a concrete proposal out of any of them. It becomes as ridiculous of a meme as “thoughts & prayers.”

Of course, its all a crooked charade. Smoke and mirrors. They’ll never actually try to solve the problem. That requires dedication and putting your neck on the line. Not until one of their own kids are killed, god forbid.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Of course, its all a crooked charade. Smoke and mirrors. They’ll never actually try to solve the problem. That requires dedication and putting your neck on the line. Not until one of their own kids are killed, god forbid.

I don’t even think that would be enough.

 

[nimbus]

What I’m saying is that every single politician says “mental health” when kids get massacred. Then is gets parroted by the “media” that supports those politicians. Then the constituents who root for that team of politicians say “mental health,” but I have yet to see a concrete proposal out of any of them. It becomes as ridiculous of a meme as “thoughts & prayers.”

“Thoughts & prayers & mental health”

 

[coffeebythelake]

What world policy? Mass shootings is solely a US problem, unless you count the guns being used in wars… ironically, similar to the guns being used here.

View attachment 356555

I get what you are trying to illustrate in this graphic, but the denominators are not the same. The left shows number of guns per unit of population. The right shows total number of incidents of mass shootings. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to also list the number of incidents of mass shootings per unit of population?

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I get what you are trying to illustrate in this graphic, but the denominators are not the same. The left shows number of guns per unit of population. The right shows total number of incidents of mass shootings. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to also list the number of incidents of mass shootings per unit of population?

You could, however, I just wanted to illustrate the amount of guns in the US compared to other countries and the high number of mass shootings in the US compared to other countries.

However, since you asked- let’s just look at the number of gun deaths/population. Looks like we’re up there with the drug lords.

Like I said in previous posts, it doesn’t matter. If a bunch of kids get their heads blown off every couple of months, who cares right?

 

[doctalaughs]

For those of you who are saying that reduction in # of guns, stricter vetting, background checks, more training (ie all the thing the NRA vehemently opposes) does NOT reduce gun deaths— can you please post some evidence or studies?

I’m open minded but it seems that the “gun control” advocates here have posted some convincing studies. I don’t see any reason for law-abiding responsible gun owners to oppose without contrary evidence. How do you argue that restrictions in other countries aren’t working?

 

[Neopolymath]

For those of you who are saying that reduction in # of guns, stricter vetting, background checks, more training (ie all the thing the NRA vehemently opposes) does NOT reduce gun deaths— can you please post some evidence or studies?

I’m open minded but it seems that the “gun control” advocates here have posted some convincing studies. I don’t see any reason for law-abiding responsible gun owners to oppose without contrary evidence. How do you argue that restrictions in other countries aren’t working?

"America is unique. It will never work. You have to bargain with me or else I will take my ball and go home because all negotiations must meet half way even if one side is being extreme and isn't negotiating from a normal starting point due to historical artifact" ad nauseam.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

For those of you who are saying that reduction in # of guns, stricter vetting, background checks, more training (ie all the thing the NRA vehemently opposes) does NOT reduce gun deaths— can you please post some evidence or studies?

I’m open minded but it seems that the “gun control” advocates here have posted some convincing studies. I don’t see any reason for law-abiding responsible gun owners to oppose without contrary evidence. How do you argue that restrictions in other countries aren’t working?

The issue as I see it is that in America we have an absolutely crazy number of guns. You could outlaw all gun sales tomorrow and those 300 million+ guns would still be around.

 

[doctalaughs]

The issue as I see it is that in America we have an absolutely crazy number of guns. You could outlaw all gun sales tomorrow and those 300 million+ guns would still be around.

Gun buy back. $1000 per working gun give or take (more for rifles). We’ve spent 300 billion on stupider things. Criminals want the money more than people committed to home defense.

And as a bonus we donate them directly to the Ukrainians.

Only works though if we convince the gun-makers to stop flooding the country with more and more guns….

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Gun buy back. $1000 per working gun give or take (more for rifles). We’ve spent 300 billion on stupider things. Criminals want the money more than people committed to home defense.

And as a bonus we donate them directly to the Ukrainians.

Only works though if we convince the gun-makers to stop flooding the country with more and more guns….

You'd have to make it mandatory, with stiff penalties for noncompliance. Something tells me this wouldn't end well.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I think that it would need to be more $

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I think that it would need to be more $

Bitcoin?

 

[Gern Blansten]

Gun buy back. $1000 per working gun give or take (more for rifles). We’ve spent 300 billion on stupider things. Criminals want the money more than people committed to home defense.

And as a bonus we donate them directly to the Ukrainians.

Only works though if we convince the gun-makers to stop flooding the country with more and more guns….

Anti-gun argument: Disarm Americans because they don’t need the guns for protection against other citizens or their own government and these weapons would be useless in an actual war.

Also the anti-gun folks: Take all of the guns from US citizens and give them to citizens of Ukraine who desperately need them to protect themselves against invading armies of Russia.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Anti-gun argument: Disarm Americans because they don’t need the guns for protection against other citizens or their own government and these weapons would be useless in an actual war.

Also the anti-gun folks: Take all of the guns from US citizens and give them to citizens of Ukraine who desperately need them to protect themselves against invading armies of Russia.

Pro gun argument: I don’t give 2 sh*s about anyone but myself.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Pro gun argument: I don’t give 2 sh*s about anyone but myself.

If you were in a jackpot situation (to quote No Country For Old Men), the guy with a gun is who you would be buddying up with and nine times out of ten, you’d be right to do so. Most legal gun owners that I know care about others a great deal.
You have been led to believe otherwise.

 

[doctalaughs]

Anti-gun argument: Disarm Americans because they don’t need the guns for protection against other citizens or their own government and these weapons would be useless in an actual war.

Also the anti-gun folks: Take all of the guns from US citizens and give them to citizens of Ukraine who desperately need them to protect themselves against invading armies of Russia.

Lol. I was wrong - we should make sure each citizen has at least 10-20 guns — as we can’t have enough in this country.

While I think there are many responsible gun owners, I fear they are probably outnumbered by the idiots who probably shouldn’t own a butter knife.

Remember that guy with a shotgun in War of the worlds who invites Tom Cruise down into his bunker to escape the aliens? The one he had to kill with a shovel? My estimate is that represents 20% of legal gun owners in Merica 😉

 

[Gern Blansten]

Lol. I was wrong - we should make sure each citizen has at least 10-20 guns — as we can’t have enough in this country.

While I think there are many responsible gun owners, I fear they are probably outnumbered by the idiots who probably shouldn’t own a butter knife.

Remember that guy with a shotgun in War of the worlds who invites Tom Cruise down into his bunker to escape the aliens? The one he had to kill with a shovel? My estimate is that represents 20% of legal gun owners in Merica 😉

Didn’t see that movie. Shovels sound dangerous though.

 

[pgg]

Didn’t see that movie. Shovels sound dangerous though.

Especially if you hammer, beat, and rivet one into an AK-47

 

[DocMcCoy]

Especially if you hammer, beat, and rivet one into an AK-47

Nice build

 

[Neopolymath]

Sadly my anvil looks just like that.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Especially if you hammer, beat, and rivet one into an AK-47

We obviously need sensible shovel laws. No high capacity shovels, only one shovel a month, need a backround check to determine if you know how to use it. Otherwise, you could hurt your back and end up on workman's comp.