IA... should I give up?

[SpoiledMilk]

We call those terrorist cookies.

Oatmeal raisin FTW...

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Rei02sDinnerParty]

OP, I think you should own this, explain your immaturity but own up to your mistake. think back to how you've since matured and demonstrated your integrity... Kill your MCAT and get into medical school. You should understand that you are not merely receiving personal advice on your chances and the steps you can take towards an acceptance, but the big names around these parts use threads like these as warning message to other premeds who check this forum and are thinking that they can get away with cheating, plagiarism or any other form of academic dishonesty. The adcoms here are not only giving advice but are also trying to shape the premed culture which I think is ultimately a good thing, because if you've ever attended a premed heavy school, you see how morality and integrity degenerate pretty quickly on the list of things to care about.

I don't think you are DOA; I think you need to write well, interview well, and write the MCAT and score highly. But most importantly, you should apply broadly to a lot of schools.

Don't tell your family that you don't have a chance because I think it's far from the truth.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[878956]

Let's be realistic for a second. Not that I'm taking a position either way - but maybe ask yourself why you would report this if it will never be revealed to the adcom. Do you think people with "sealed/purged" criminal records are reporting that to the schools? Hell no they're not, because apparently only a federal background check can disclose that information. Lying is lying of course, but we're talking about non-disclosure of minor information that otherwise would bury your career aspirations.

I agree with this. Learn from the mistake but do let it ruin your future.

 

[stubblesmcgee]

BTW, not all criminal records are the same, and there are differences between crimes against property, and crimes of moral turpitude. We can forgive DUI, for example.

Wait, which is a DUI, property or turpitude? I've read this numerous times but it still boggles my mind that a cheating incident from several years back is worse to many adcoms than a DUI.

 

[nutellalicker]

Dear all, thank you for your input. They are all very interesting and valid. To the person who said I am not real and just trolling I wish lol. While medicine is a dream for me, I feel very fortunate to be in the pharmacy program still and in that regard I am blessed. My mom is encouraging me to not let this stop me. I will have to consider if medicine is really my passion in the next few days or if I would be ok with alternate careers. Thank you all again for your responses

 

[Goro]

Wait, which is a DUI, property or turpitude? I've read this numerous times but it still boggles my mind that a cheating incident from several years back is worse to many adcoms than a DUI.

Impaired capacity. I can overlook that. And yes, I full know that drunk drivers kill families like mine. But we also know from actual data that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.

 

[HomeSkool]

I’m all about forgiveness, and six years of not cheating, good grades, and a hell of a convincing story of change would be enough for me. But I’m not an adcom.

It would probably be good enough for me, too. And I am an adcom.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

It would probably be good enough for me, too. And I am an adcom.

Well, Congratulations are in order! On a prior posting, you mentioned you were not on the Adcom and now you are...

 

[HomeSkool]

Well, Congratulations are in order! On a prior posting, you mentioned you were not on the Adcom and now you are...

I got an upgrade. 😀

 

[deleted804295]

I got an upgrade. 😀

Congratulations on adcom status! A great +1 for SDN adcoms and I look forward to having as much advice as I can get from your adcom experiences! Yay for SDN pre-meds!

 

[atomi]

OP, fyi at the school I went to you would have been expelled without question for what you did. Not only were you not expelled, you were still allowed to pass the class!

I agree that a single mistake like this should not keep you out of medical school.

The sad reality is that cheating is extremely common in competitive situations. It stands to reason that because medicine is the most competitive graduate program, cheating is going to be the most prevalent among pre-meds. And cheating is common both among pre-meds and med students. How many people illegally take Adderall? A LOT. It's academic's equivalent of steroids in baseball or doping in cycling. It gives you an unfair advantage over your peers, and in my opinion a hell of a lot more of an advantage than looking up a single answer to a single question in a single class on your phone. So many people cheat and get away with it and easily get past the admissions committee with no one the wiser.

You got caught. The reality is that you would have kept cheating if you had gotten away with it. And the irony is that you will now probably cheat less than many people who actually get into med school without getting caught. But these are the cards you have been dealt. Keep clean from here on out, and I think you will be ok.

 

[atomi]

It's not just that. I believe in redemption and I love to see people recover from their mistakes. But the applicant who cheated is competing against hundreds of cream-of-the-crop applicants who didn't cheat get caught. Am I supposed to look them in the eye and say their integrity counts for nothing?

Fixed that for you. I don't think adcoms have any clue as to the level of cheating that actually goes on among pre-meds and med students. Especially when it comes to performance enhancing drugs.

 

[GoCubsGo20]

Chin up buttercup! You fooked up, don't be a scum anymore!

 

[stubblesmcgee]

Fixed that for you. I don't think adcoms have any clue as to the level of cheating that actually goes on among pre-meds and med students. Especially when it comes to performance enhancing drugs.

True enough. At my school working on lab reports for orgo together was cheating. Everyone still did it because it turned several afternoon's worth of work into a single afternoon of work. No one ever got caught and a lot of the kids in my class are graduating from medical school now.

 

[HomeSkool]

Fixed that for you. I don't think adcoms have any clue as to the level of cheating that actually goes on among pre-meds and med students. Especially when it comes to performance enhancing drugs.

We're not as naive as you'd like to think we are. Why do you think I said "hundreds" and not "thousands"? Either way, the argument that we should ignore documented academic dishonesty because other people don't get caught is pure nonsense.

 

[deleted804295]

Fixed that for you. I don't think adcoms have any clue as to the level of cheating that actually goes on among pre-meds and med students. Especially when it comes to performance enhancing drugs.

During my first year of University I would have agreed with you but many individuals who cheat at my University happen to be the kids least likely to get into medical school due to character flaws that are known through the department, due to poor grades despite cheating, and lastly due to them eventually being caught.

Everyone knows these students and they are the minority by far.

 

[atomi]

We're not as naive as you'd like to think we are. Why do you think I said "hundreds" and not "thousands"? Either way, the argument that we should ignore documented academic dishonesty because other people don't get caught is pure nonsense.

I never said that. I just think there are some adcom members who see the world through rose colored glasses and are ignorant to the reality of what goes on in high pressure collegiate environments. If you put everybody's life under a microscope and analyzed every single decision, you would find dishonesty somewhere. I think it's a little silly for some on this thread to say that this person should never be able to become a doctor. The question is, did this guy get caught because this was the only mistake he ever made and just got unlucky or did this guy get caught because he cheats all the time and finally after the 1,000th time his number came up? As an adcom, your job should be to rule out the latter scenario. The variable of time is how you solve it, and if this guy has got 5-6 years of a squeaky clean record, well come on, gimme a break.

 

[stubblesmcgee]

The variable of time is how you solve it, and if this guy has got 5-6 years of a squeaky clean record, well come on, gimme a break.

In fairness, it seems like you both agree.

It would probably be good enough for me, too. And I am an adcom.

 

[HomeSkool]

I never said that.

Not explicitly, perhaps, but the content and tone of your post suggested you were endorsing that philosophy. It's exactly the argument cheatsplainers use to justify lying on their applications.

I just think there are some adcom members who see the world through rose colored glasses and are ignorant to the reality of what goes on in high pressure collegiate environments. If you put everybody's life under a microscope and analyzed every single decision, you would find dishonesty ssomewhere.

Probably, but that's irrelevant. AMCAS doesn't ask if you've ever told a lie. It asks if you've ever been the recipient of an institutional action by a university.

I think it's a little silly for some on this thread to say that this person should never be able to become a doctor.

I agree.

The question is, did this guy get caught because this was the only mistake he ever made and just got unlucky or did this guy get caught because he cheats all the time and finally after the 1,000th time his number came up? As an adcom, your job should be to rule out the latter scenario.

Absolutely not. Medical schools are not hurting for qualified applicants. The onus falls upon each applicant to convince us they're better than the competition, not upon us to determine who's cheated habitually versus a single time.

The variable of time is how you solve it, and if this guy has got 5-6 years of a squeaky clean record, well come on, gimme a break.

You should read my earlier posts in the thread, specifically this one:

It would probably be good enough for me, too. And I am an adcom.

Note that I said a compelling story of change is what would be good enough for me, not just a 5-6 year history of not getting caught again.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don't think adcoms have any clue as to the level of cheating that actually goes on among pre-meds and med students.

I seriously doubt that. But not holding it against someone who gets caught cheating because people do it and get away with it is not logical.

 

[smukke]

I never said that. I just think there are some adcom members who see the world through rose colored glasses and are ignorant to the reality of what goes on in high pressure collegiate environments. If you put everybody's life under a microscope and analyzed every single decision, you would find dishonesty somewhere. I think it's a little silly for some on this thread to say that this person should never be able to become a doctor. The question is, did this guy get caught because this was the only mistake he ever made and just got unlucky or did this guy get caught because he cheats all the time and finally after the 1,000th time his number came up? As an adcom, your job should be to rule out the latter scenario. The variable of time is how you solve it, and if this guy has got 5-6 years of a squeaky clean record, well come on, gimme a break.

Not that I condone cheating but even if you were to accept the premise that everyone cheats there's still a difference between a smart cheater and a dumb one. You'd still want to avoid the dumb one because who knows how they'll screw up even if they don't cheat.

 

[500miles]

OP, fyi at the school I went to you would have been expelled without question for what you did. Not only were you not expelled, you were still allowed to pass the class!

I agree that a single mistake like this should not keep you out of medical school.

The sad reality is that cheating is extremely common in competitive situations. It stands to reason that because medicine is the most competitive graduate program, cheating is going to be the most prevalent among pre-meds. And cheating is common both among pre-meds and med students. How many people illegally take Adderall? A LOT. It's academic's equivalent of steroids in baseball or doping in cycling. It gives you an unfair advantage over your peers, and in my opinion a hell of a lot more of an advantage than looking up a single answer to a single question in a single class on your phone. So many people cheat and get away with it and easily get past the admissions committee with no one the wiser.

You got caught. The reality is that you would have kept cheating if you had gotten away with it. And the irony is that you will now probably cheat less than many people who actually get into med school without getting caught. But these are the cards you have been dealt. Keep clean from here on out, and I think you will be ok.

I agree with a lot of the sentiment, but don't get too worked up about the adderall. There is data out there (Prescription stimulants in individuals with and without attention deficit hyperactivity disorder: misuse, cognitive impact, and adverse effects) that would show that adderall for people without ADD is not really the performance enhancer the rest of us would think. In fact, the sum of Adderall use in non-ADD may actually have more negative than positive effects. Sorry for the tangent, but my point is that people who cheat (or use adderall --get high-- and THINK they are doing better on all of their tests) tend to have an overall negative outcome with whatever they are doing in life. The bottom line is we shouldn't feel that threatened by people who try to take short-cuts, they are plenty good at destroying their chances themselves and we might even be inclined to give them a second chance AFTER they have crashed-burned- and redeemed themselves through years of positive work.

 

[who_dis_new_phone]

Impaired capacity. I can overlook that. And yes, I full know that drunk drivers kill families like mine. But we also know from actual data that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.

Is that data publically available? If so, would you mind sharing the source?

 

[Goro]

Is that data publically available? If so, would you mind sharing the source?

It's in pubmed

 

[who_dis_new_phone]

It's in pubmed

I looked on pubmed before with a couple different search terms but couldn't find anything. I'm hoping you can help me out with a title or one of the authors on a paper on that topic, since you seem to be familiar with it. I've been saying the same thing about dishonest doctors starting as cheaters, so it'd be nice to have a paper that I can cite.

 

[Goro]

I looked on pubmed before with a couple different search terms but couldn't find anything. I'm hoping you can help me out with a title or one of the authors on a paper on that topic, since you seem to be familiar with it. I've been saying the same thing about dishonest doctors starting as cheaters, so it'd be nice to have a paper that I can cite.

I don;t have the citation, alas. But I've read it. I'll gave to ask one of our Deans....maybe they have it.

Try some of these...the paper that I was thinking of might be in one of the references.
Unprofessional Behaviors Among Tomorrow's Physicians: Review of the Literature With a Focus on Risk Factors, Temporal Trends, and Future Directions. - PubMed - NCBI
Cheating in medical school: the unacknowledged ailment. - PubMed - NCBI
Fraud and plagiarisim in school and career. - PubMed - NCBI
How many doctors are cheating their way into practice. - PubMed - NCBI
United States: dishonest students. - PubMed - NCBI
Professional behavior--a learner's permit for licensure. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Goro]

Found it!!!!
Disciplinary action by medical boards and prior behavior in medical school. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[who_dis_new_phone]

Found it!!!!

Thanks, very interesting, and in NEJM nontheless! The study also has this gem: "students with low MCAT scores... were also at risk for future disciplinary action". Do you take this into account as an adcom?

Which of the "unprofessional behavior" categories would you list cheating under?

Edit: After further reading it looks like the only "unprofessional behavior" subcategory that both corresponds with cheating and significantly predicts subsequent discliplinary action was "irresponsibility". However, only at 3 or more counts of "irresponsibility" does the odds ratio increase to more than 1. Thoughts?

 

[Goro]

Do you take this into account as an adcom?
Never for cheating, but for academic performance. Our Dean (and others) like high MCAT scores.

Which of the "unprofessional behavior" categories would you list cheating under?
Cheating..This is what we call it.

Edit: After further reading it looks like the only "unprofessional behavior" subcategory that both corresponds with cheating and significantly predicts subsequent discliplinary action was "irresponsibility". However, only at 3 or more counts of "irresponsibility" does the odds ratio increase to more than 1. Thoughts?
Hard to tell.

 

[who_dis_new_phone]

@Goro While the papers you linked are interesting, they don't show that students who are caught cheating on a single test or assignment are more likely to end up as dishonest doctors. If anything, the NEJM paper indicates that a single cheating violation is NOT predictive of future disciplinary action as a physician. Fun reading, though, and certainly speaks for the importance of personal self-improvement.

 

[Goro]

@Goro While the papers you linked are interesting, they don't show that students who are caught cheating on a single test or assignment are more likely to end up as dishonest doctors. If anything, the NEJM paper indicates that a single cheating violation is NOT predictive of future disciplinary action as a physician. Fun reading, though, and certainly speaks for the importance of personal self-improvement.

Then That's not the paper I was thinking of, alas.

 

[PotGoblinsales10]

We can forgive DUI, for example

A DUI is not of moral turpitude? This is far far worse than cheating. Imagine a paraplegic/quadriplegic patient hit by a drunk driver having a neurogenic bladder and requiring to self-catheterize their urethra leading to multiple urinary infections and repeated sepsis. A DUI is one of the most disgusting things someone can have on their record, even if they didn't hurt anyone yet.

Impaired Driving: Get the Facts | Motor Vehicle Safety | CDC Injury Center

 

[atomi]

A DUI is one of the most disgusting things someone can have on their record, even if they didn't hurt anyone yet.

Impaired Driving: Get the Facts | Motor Vehicle Safety | CDC Injury Center

Nearly everyone who drinks alcohol has driven with some amount of impairment in their life. You're lying to yourself if you think otherwise. A single drink impairs you. Get off your high horse. Yes, DUI is bad and can kill people. But it's not usually premeditated. Hell, looking at your cellphone while driving or screwing with your radio IS a premediated sober decision and can easily kill someone. MADD has driven this whole DUI=serial child rapist level of moral turpitude thing.

 

[freak7]

"anecdata" "cheatsplainers" I love neologisms 😍

Well if you like the collar you're gonna love the cuffs

Hell, looking at your cellphone while driving or screwing with your radio IS a premediated sober decision and can easily kill someone

1) Relative privation fallacy; just because one is "worse" (in terms of premeditation and sobriety) doesn't mean the other side isn't bad. In fact, I'm not entirely sure I understand your point. You claim that DUI is bad and can kill people, that texting and driving is worse, but then use that as a way to rationalize drunk driving?
2) I do agree with you that texting while/distracted driving are worse (in terms of having a higher number of incidents, not incident rate). A while ago I read a study arguing that texting and driving had a more dangerous effect on public safety than drunk driving, but obviously there's a ton of confounders that could be argued.

 

[Goro]

A DUI is not of moral turpitude? This is far far worse than cheating. Imagine a paraplegic/quadriplegic patient hit by a drunk driver having a neurogenic bladder and requiring to self-catheterize their urethra leading to multiple urinary infections and repeated sepsis. A DUI is one of the most disgusting things someone can have on their record, even if they didn't hurt anyone yet.

Impaired Driving: Get the Facts | Motor Vehicle Safety | CDC Injury Center

I'm aware that this is a very emotional subject.

However, my own view is that one doesn't set out to both be impaired and drive. You get drunk, and then your judgement is impaired. That, combined with the fact that candidates who get a bye on this were in their late teens, let's us view this as less than cheating, where one makes a true conscious decision to cheat, and knows it's wrong right up front. We were also young and stupid once ourselves. Also, some with a DUI who injures someone will have more on their record than mere DUI. Such a driver as in your example would be rejected.

We've rejected candidates who had more recent DUI, under the reasoning that they should have known better.

Multiple DUI over a longer periods shows one doesn't learn lessons, doesn't care or has a drinking/drug problem. These people also get rejected unless something like a 5-10 years has passed and they're sober.

BTW, I once served as a jury foreman in a DUI case. The DA made the argument that the defendant "could hit somebody and killed them".

This was was objected to, and sustained by the judge, because at least in our state, you something you might do is not a crime.

SDNers are advised that when they get into medical school, they can always try to be an interviewer and then apply their own moral standards.

Moral Turpitude. A phrase used in Criminal Law to describe conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty, or good morals. Crimes involving moral turpitude have an inherent quality of baseness, vileness, or depravity with respect to a person's duty to another or to society in general.
Moral Turpitude legal definition of Moral Turpitude - Legal Dictionary
Moral Turpitude

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

A DUI is not of moral turpitude? This is far far worse than cheating. Imagine a paraplegic/quadriplegic patient hit by a drunk driver having a neurogenic bladder and requiring to self-catheterize their urethra leading to multiple urinary infections and repeated sepsis. A DUI is one of the most disgusting things someone can have on their record, even if they didn't hurt anyone yet.

Impaired Driving: Get the Facts | Motor Vehicle Safety | CDC Injury Center

You’re in store for a lot of mental gymnastics to justify potentially murdering people due to ****ty choices being more forgivable than cheating on a test.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Nearly everyone who drinks alcohol has driven with some amount of impairment in their life. You're lying to yourself if you think otherwise. A single drink impairs you. Get off your high horse. Yes, DUI is bad and can kill people. But it's not usually premeditated. Hell, looking at your cellphone while driving or screwing with your radio IS a premediated sober decision and can easily kill someone. MADD has driven this whole DUI=serial child rapist level of moral turpitude thing.

There are so many logical fallacies here, I don’t even know where to start.

 

[who_dis_new_phone]

However, my own view is that one doesn't set out to both be impaired and drive. You get drunk, and then your judgement is impaired.

Does the same logic apply to people who get drunk then cheat on a test?😉

Also, shouldn't the advising you do using your official standing as an adcom be kept separate from your personal moral feelings on issues like these? The fact is, as much as we all hate cheaters, there are practical steps that @nutellalicker can take to increase their odds of getting into med school. For instance, joining some sort student ethics committee, maybe taking non-manditory ehtics classes with the goal of eventually TAing for one, etc? Also things like how to address academic violations in the amcas prompt. @MeatTornado is sorely missed in that regard.

 

[atomi]

There are so many logical fallacies here, I don’t even know where to start.

The point is that a lot of people lose the ability to think about this issue logically because of emotional reasons and personal bias regarding alcohol use. A man goes to dinner, has a double of bourbon at the bar while waiting for a table and a glass of wine with dinner. He encounters a sobriety checkpoint on the way home, the cop smells alcohol, and he stumbles a bit on a field sobriety test and gets arrested. This guy clearly set out to murder somebody right? Lets ruin his career/life for the foreseeable future. Meanwhile resident X drives home after a 30 hour shift, falls asleep, and almost runs over a pedestrian but instead totals his car into a light post. Police come, ahh man, that sucks, let me give you a lift home.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The point is that a lot of people lose the ability to think about this issue logically because of emotional reasons and personal bias regarding alcohol use. A man goes to dinner, has a double of bourbon at the bar while waiting for a table and a glass of wine with dinner. He encounters a sobriety checkpoint on the way home, the cop smells alcohol, and he stumbles a bit on a field sobriety test and gets arrested. This guy clearly set out to murder somebody right? Lets ruin his career/life for the foreseeable future. Meanwhile resident X drives home after a 30 hour shift, falls asleep, and almost runs over a pedestrian but instead totals his car into a light post. Police come, ahh man, that sucks, let me give you a lift home.

And they just keep coming.

 

[who_dis_new_phone]

The point is that a lot of people lose the ability to think about this issue logically because of emotional reasons and personal bias regarding alcohol use. A man goes to dinner, has a double of bourbon and a glass of wine with dinner. He gets pulled over on the way home and stumbles a bit on a field sobriety test and gets arrested. This guy clearly set out to murder somebody right? Lets ruin his career/life for the foreseeable future. Meanwhile resident X drives home after a 30 hour shift, falls asleep, and almost runs over a pedestrian but instead totals his car into a light post. Police come, ahh man, that sucks, let me give you a lift home.

I agree with @Matthew9Thirtyfive. Why the excuses for people who get DUIs? If you know you're going to drive, don't drink. It's that simple. If you do it once, learn your lesson. There's no need to make excuses for people who can't learn self-control.

 

[ndafife]

A DUI is not of moral turpitude? This is far far worse than cheating. Imagine a paraplegic/quadriplegic patient hit by a drunk driver having a neurogenic bladder and requiring to self-catheterize their urethra leading to multiple urinary infections and repeated sepsis. A DUI is one of the most disgusting things someone can have on their record, even if they didn't hurt anyone yet.

Impaired Driving: Get the Facts | Motor Vehicle Safety | CDC Injury Center

Its a lot easier to tangibly demonstrate growth from a DUI - multiple years without any alcohol related issues, AA, counseling others about the danger of DUI, etc...

Its harder to do "show" growth from cheating.

 

[who_dis_new_phone]

Its a lot easier to tangibly demonstrate growth from a DUI - multiple years without any alcohol related issues, AA, counseling others about the danger of DUI, etc...

Its harder to do "show" growth from cheating.

Equivalently, you could have multiple years without any cheating issues, taking non-manditory ethics classes, teaching others about the importance of academic honesty, etc.

 

[Robin-jay]

@nutellalicker I'm a huge fan of redemption in institutional actions such as these, if you only do it once.

I may have an unpopular opinion, but one big mistake like cheating or plagiarizing should be forgiven with a few years and clean record elsewhere.

violent issues are the worst, like assault. If you assault someone, or something along those lines, then those people should be barred from being physicians.

There was one thread with a girl who domestically violated two different men, and some people were actually supporting her to become a med school student. Absolute insanity. Who wants to be in a research lab at midnight alone with someone who assaulted multiple people???

 

[ndafife]

Equivalently, you could have multiple years without any cheating issues, taking non-manditory ethics classes, teaching others about the importance of academic honesty, etc.

There are a lot less opportunities for ethics classes and teaching about academic honesty

 

[who_dis_new_phone]

There are a lot less opportunities for ethics classes and teaching about academic honesty

The point of this thread isn't to state whether something is easy or hard to do, it's to offer advice to the original poster on how to proceed after receiving a cheating violation. Maybe they need to spearhead their own student ethics group or offer to work with the University's ethics office. So be it. But the only thing going on in this thread has been people stating their personal opinions on whether they think the poster should be allowed into med school.

And I disagree with the first half of that statement. You can find ethics classes in just about every college in existence.

 

[smukke]

I agree with @Matthew9Thirtyfive. Why the excuses for people who get DUIs? If you know you're going to drive, don't drink. It's that simple. If you do it once, learn your lesson. There's no need to make excuses for people who can't learn self-control.

I think there's also a generational difference going on. It wasn't that long ago that the DUI limit was 0.15 (most states lowered it in the 80s, Minnesota was the last hold out until 2004) and DUIs didn't make you a social pariah in the 50-70s like it does now (your parents/grandparents probably drove drunk and didn't think much of it) vs growing up in the DARE/MADD era where we've been bombarded with warnings. And the fact is that the US is still very lenient towards drinking and driving, our 0.08 limit is among the highest in developed countries (we share the distinction with Canada and Iraq) and our punishments very low (for example in Japan passengers in the car can be fined as well since they let the driver drive). We as a society accept people drinking and driving, we're just against drunk and driving.

 

[atomi]

I agree with @Matthew9Thirtyfive. Why the excuses for people who get DUIs? If you know you're going to drive, don't drink. It's that simple. If you do it once, learn your lesson. There's no need to make excuses for people who can't learn self-control.

As a society, whether you agree with it or not, we have decided that it is OK to have a few drinks and drive. Our BAC limit is 0.08, which is about 3-4 standard drinks for the average man over a few hours. There are countries in the world where any amount of alcohol in your system is forbidden, and there are countries where there is no set limit and you are fine to drive as long as you are not "drunk." There are neo-prohibitionist groups in the US, such as MADD, that have sought to demonize alcohol use and seek a 0.00 BAC limit. The reality is that not all DUI is the same. These people would have you believe that it is. There is an enormous amount of emotional appeal on that side of the argument, and as a result often the punishment does not fit the crime. People that beat this drum the hardest tend to be holier-than-thou teetotaler types, which I suspect @Matthew9Thirtyfive is. They refuse to engage in logical argument about this topic (see above), use hyperbolic phrases like "DUI = attempted murder" or acknowledge that there are many other actions one can take while driving that increase the risk of an accident at least equivalent to or moreso than having a non-zero BAC that no one cares about.

This goes back to my original point that most people who consume alcohol have driven with a borderline BAC at some point in their life and thought the next morning, "gee, I probably shouldn't have driven last night -- I'll be more careful next time." If you drink and this has never happened to you, I can pretty much guarantee you that you are FOS. For the most part, these people are otherwise good citizens and occasionally they get burned and it's reasonable to give them second chances. Unfortunately, there are people out there who want to equate these people to true criminals and alcoholics who drive with a 0.20 BAC every night, know that they are going to keep doing it, and have no intention to stop.

If you're going to have an honest conversation about this, you need to ask yourself whether you think it's morally OK to drink alcohol, whether you think the limit should be 0.00, whether you think restaurants should be legally allowed to serve alcohol, and if you want to impose your moral beliefs about alcohol use on others. @Matthew9Thirtyfive isn't addressing any of this and is just saying, hey if you don't agree with me that drinking any alcohol outside of your house where you might potentially drive = potentially murdering people, then you are performing "mental gymnastics." Yeah, mental gymnastics means giving you some real world scenarios to challenge your hardline dogma, sorry. I know it makes you uncomfortable. Of course, you'll just ignore all this and say that I'm just defending the 5-time DUI 0.20-everynight scumbag driving on a suspended license.

 

[Robin-jay]

Nearly everyone who drinks alcohol has driven with some amount of impairment in their life.

I have not (pretty sure I've never driven over the limit). Don't feel like going to prison, killing someone, or having a felony ruin my career opportunities.

You're lying to yourself if you think otherwise. A single drink impairs you. Get off your high horse. Yes, DUI is bad and can kill people. But it's not usually premeditated. Hell, looking at your cellphone while driving or screwing with your radio IS a premediated sober decision and can easily kill someone. MADD has driven this whole DUI=serial child rapist level of moral turpitude thing.

The ratio is people killing other after drinking is much higher than than kill someone else by looking at their phone.

DUI is premeditated in the fact you didn't have a plan to get yourself home if you knew you were going out. Also, being drunk impairs judgement, but even being impaired shouldn't impair your judgement to drive. I think that's more of an excuse than the reality of the situation.

People who usually drink and drive have the mentality of "I know I shouldn't drive but I have to get home", rather than what your implying which is "I'm so drunk that I think driving is a good idea right now".


I don't know if DUI's are worse than being serial child rapist, but I assure you DUI's probably kill more children per year than a serial child rapist.

 

[smukke]

As a society, whether you agree with it or not, we have decided that it is OK to have a few drinks and drive. Our BAC limit is 0.08, which is about 3-4 standard drinks for the average man over a few hours. There are countries in the world where any amount of alcohol in your system is forbidden, and there are countries where there is no set limit and you are fine to drive as long as you are not "drunk." There are neo-prohibitionist groups in the US, such as MADD, that have sought to demonize alcohol use and seek a 0.00 BAC limit.

lol, we posted basically the same thing.

Actually MADD seems to have toned down their rhetoric somewhat, at least compared to the heyday. Even Lightner was on record a while ago saying that they seem to have moved away from the prohibitionist stance which was one of the reasons she left. When the NTSB recommended lowering the limit to 0.05 MADD didn't endorse it, of course they aren't opposing it but they don't see it as very effective, plus it would probably alienate too much of the public.