If pod school is just as hard as med school, why are the standards of acceptance so much lower?

[Windom Earle]

What you guys dont understand is there are no podiatry procedures. Ortho does the big foot and ankle recon cases. Nurses and others can clip nails. Other MDs across the board do wound care (see Healogics). Rheumatologist does injections. PCP does injections or send to PT. There is nothing unique about podiatry. There will always be a role and there will always be certain locations where podiatry can flourish.

If what you're saying is true, then why are podiatrists making so much money on average?

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[RedoxRxn]

What you guys dont understand is there are no podiatry procedures. Ortho does the big foot and ankle recon cases. Nurses and others can clip nails. Other MDs across the board do wound care (see Healogics). Rheumatologist does injections. PCP does injections or send to PT. There is nothing unique about podiatry. There will always be a role and there will always be certain locations where podiatry can flourish.

What you guys don’t understand is there are no nurse practitioner procedures. Familypractice does all the flu shots. PAs can diagnose. Other MDs do anesthesia (see Anesthesiologist). Cardiologist take BP. Psychiatry does mental health or send to pscychologist. There is nothing unique about nurse practitioners. There will always be a role and there will always be certain locations where NPs can flourish.

Had to do it lol sorry.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

What you guys don’t understand is there are no nurse practitioner procedures. Familypractice does all the flu shots. PAs can diagnose. Other MDs do anesthesia (see Anesthesiologist). Cardiologist take BP. Psychiatry does mental health or send to pscychologist. There is nothing unique about nurse practitioners. There will always be a role and there will always be certain locations where NPs can flourish.

Had to do it lol sorry.

Except that there is a huge shortage of primary care docs..... thus the huge demand for nurse practitioners and what they do

 

[Robin-jay]

Shadowed a podiatrist (in addition to both MD and DO physicians).

Seemed like every other physician.

In fact, maybe more impressive than some physicians because most podiatrists engage in surgery as well. Whereas many MD/DO physicians don't.

 

[de Ribas]

Shadowed a podiatrist (in addition to both MD and DO physicians).

Seemed like every other physician.

In fact, maybe more impressive than some physicians because most podiatrists engage in surgery as well. Whereas many MD/DO physicians don't.

Why did you decide to shadow a podiatrist? Did you shadow in the clinic or hospital?

 

[GypsyHummus]

I agree. When I shadowed I noticed very little difference between MD/DO vs Pod. Idk why people get so hot and bothered when they say you are “just a podiatrist”. That’s a pretty big accomplishment. It’s like saying you are “Just a Dentist” or “Just a DO Family Medicine Doctor”. A lot of patients don’t even know pods have the DPM, they see the scrubs and just know you are Dr. Fill in the blank MD

I think as long as you are good at your craft, people will keep coming back to you. Kind of like a General Dentist who is really good at extracting wisdom teeth. I don’t care if he isn’t an oral MD surgeon, as long as the DDS has an excellent reputation and can get me out with limited pain, I’m in.

If a pod can put in an ankle implant, with minimal scarring and damage to the area, at a fraction of the cost, why wouldn’t I go to them? The disparity in training might be an issue for pods tho, as I’ve heard there is a big difference between good residencies and poor ones. It would be nice if there was a tool to differentiate between excellent residency trained Pods and ones who went to poor ones, unless uniformity can be reached with training, which is what they tried to do in 2007.

Shadowed a podiatrist (in addition to both MD and DO physicians).

Seemed like every other physician.

In fact, maybe more impressive than some physicians because most podiatrists engage in surgery as well. Whereas many MD/DO physicians don't.

 

[Nowehjose]

Gypsyhummus, half the medical field thinks podiatry is a 3-year program like PA. When I was getting cortisone shots in my shoulders my orthoPA was scratching his head when I told him it was at least 7 years of school/residency before I could practice. Our lobbying body sucks.

 

[GypsyHummus]

All too true. Pods need a better marketing department.

Gypsyhummus, half the medical field thinks podiatry is a 3-year program like PA. When I was getting cortisol shots in my shoulders my orthoPA was scratching his head when I told him it was at least 7 years of school/residency before I could practice. Our lobbying body sucks.

 

[HarmonicConvergence]

All too true. Pods need a better marketing department.

I think a big majority of the public thinks that a podiatrist is a specialized MD/DO. I had two major surgeries on my feet in high school by a podiatrist and both me and my parents just assumed he was an MD. I didn't realize it was a separate degree until I was in undergrad talking with my adviser on the process of applying to medical school... in order to become a podiatrist one day.

 

[Weirdy]

Gypsyhummus, half the medical field thinks podiatry is a 3-year program like PA. When I was getting cortisone shots in my shoulders my orthoPA was scratching his head when I told him it was at least 7 years of school/residency before I could practice. Our lobbying body sucks.

Had a PT from UCSF ask about podiatry.

They thought it was 3 years.

 

[Robin-jay]

Why did you decide to shadow a podiatrist? Did you shadow in the clinic or hospital?

I shadowed a podiatrist because I was curious to what they actually do, and since I love medicine in general, the specific specialization doesn't matter to me as most people.

I love to help people in healthcare, and I can do that as a podiatrist, cardiologist, primary care, etc.

It was in a clinical setting.

One of the podiatrists there had a 4.0 chemistry undergraduate GPA from the same undergraduate university as me, and also went to podiatry school on a 75% scholarship. The fact is he is a great physician that also does intensive reconstructive foot and ankle surgery.

He went through podiatry with little debt, gets to help people in healthcare, and makes well over 200k+ a year.

The only real con to the profession is being told on SDN that he's not a real physician. lol.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I shadowed a podiatrist because I was curious to what they actually do, and since I love medicine in general, the specific specialization doesn't matter to me as most people.

I love to help people in healthcare, and I can do that as a podiatrist, cardiologist, primary care, etc.

It was in a clinical setting.

One of the podiatrists there had a 4.0 chemistry undergraduate GPA from the same undergraduate university as me, and also went to podiatry school on a 75% scholarship. The fact is he is a great physician that also does intensive reconstructive foot and ankle surgery.

He went through podiatry with little debt, gets to help people in healthcare, and makes well over 200k+ a year.

The only real con to the profession is being told on SDN that he's not a real physician. lol.

There are more cons than that haha its okay to be excited about the profession and recognize that there are plenty of cons and hills to climb

 

[Robin-jay]

There are more cons than that haha its okay to be excited about the profession and recognize that there are plenty of cons and hills to climb

Being a podiatrist is currently not my aim. I'm more of an osteopathic guy, but if the only people that look down on your profession in the world are MDs/DOs, then thats hardly a battle. Just an annoyance.

 

[air bud]

Being a podiatrist is currently not my aim. I'm more of an osteopathic guy, but if the only people that look down on your profession in the world are MDs/DOs, then thats hardly a battle. Just an annoyance.

Wait until you are told you can't do ankle fractures or acute Achilles ruptures because of what an MD Ortho says. Then see if it is an annoyance.

 

[RedoxRxn]

Wait until you are told you can't do ankle fractures or acute Achilles ruptures because of what an MD Ortho says. Then see if it is an annoyance.

Why wouldn't they allow? is it because it pays well? or because they think its too complicated and so only they can do it?

 

[GypsyHummus]

I was about to say, if a podiatrist is legally allowed to do that procedure and they feel comfortable doing it, why wouldn’t they?

That’s the equivalent of an oral surgeon telling a general dentist they can’t extract wisdom teeth. If the dentist can legally do so and feels comfortable doing so, why wouldn’t they?

Why wouldn't they allow? is it because it pays well? or because they think its too complicated and so only they can do it?

 

[Robin-jay]

I was about to say, if a podiatrist is legally allowed to do that procedure and they feel comfortable doing it, why wouldn’t they?

That’s the equivalent of an oral surgeon telling a general dentist they can’t extract wisdom teeth. If the dentist can legally do so and feels comfortable doing so, why wouldn’t they?

The fact you don't have a profile picture after nearly 3k posts is killing me.

 

[RedoxRxn]

I would like to know because funny thing today shadowing I saw a patient who's diabetic foot a vascular surgeon wanted to totally amputate and the podiatrist was like uhmmm no we can salvage the foot. And the podiatrist just ended up taking out the pinky toe bone section and it healed well after the surgery and the patient said he can walk with the help of a Physical therapist!

 

[Weirdy]

I would like to know because funny thing today shadowing I saw a patient who's diabetic foot a vascular surgeon wanted to totally amputate and the podiatrist was like uhmmm no we can salvage the foot. And the podiatrist just ended up taking out the 5th metatarsal I think it is called and the patient healed well after the procedure and the patient said he can walk with the help of a Physical therapist!

Doin the Lord's work we are.

 

[GypsyHummus]

That should be a story presentation people give when they talk to kids on college campuses.

I think the best way to market is going to healthcare fairs. I nominate @Weirdy to talk to those premeds.

I would like to know because funny thing today shadowing I saw a patient who's diabetic foot a vascular surgeon wanted to totally amputate and the podiatrist was like uhmmm no we can salvage the foot. And the podiatrist just ended up taking out the pinky toe bone section and it healed well after the surgery and the patient said he can walk with the help of a Physical therapist!

 

[Robin-jay]

That should be a story presentation people give when they talk to kids on college campuses.

I think the best way to market is going to healthcare fairs. I nominate @Weirdy to talk to those premeds.

Honestly, the main issue with podiatry in the college scene is truly the lack of advertising. I know you guys have mentioned this 1000+ times.

I feel like taking fliers and then posting them at every university science building talking about podiatrists.

Then I remember that I'm going the D.O. route. You guys are on your own.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Honestly, the main issue with podiatry in the college scene is truly the lack of advertising. I know you guys have mentioned this 1000+ times.

I feel like taking fliers and then posting them at every university science building talking about podiatrists.

Then I remember that I'm going the D.O. route. You guys are on your own.

Another method would be to either as Pod student or after you become a DPM, to contact the pre-med advisors and ask for a ppt presentation for the kids there.
I didn't know about this field until I met one in a hospital (2 years after undergrad).

 

[Robin-jay]

Another method would be to either as Pod student or after you become a DPM, to contact the pre-med advisors and ask for a ppt presentation for the kids there.
I didn't know about this field until I met one in a hospital (2 years after undergrad).

For example, start a pre-pod. club in undergrad.

Although, personal experience would dictate most colleges wouldn't have enough students to start a club for one.

At least not until the advertising picks up

 

[de Ribas]

Another method would be to either as Pod student or after you become a DPM, to contact the pre-med advisors and ask for a ppt presentation for the kids there.
I didn't know about this field until I met one in a hospital (2 years after undergrad).

exactly, more people need to know about it.

I was thinking about medicine since high school. only this year I found out that podiatry is a separate school. I heard about doctors as podiatrist. My mom had to fix her nails and had one nail removed couple years ago. We thought it was just a podiatry physician. I found about podiatry only at the beginning of this year. The way it happened: I was just looking at DMUs website for like 20th time reading through pages and such and I saw at admissions tab that they had college of podiatry medicine and surgery.

Most people just don't know about it or think that this is like chiropractor or something.

 

[de Ribas]

Another method would be to either as Pod student or after you become a DPM, to contact the pre-med advisors and ask for a ppt presentation for the kids there.
I didn't know about this field until I met one in a hospital (2 years after undergrad).

I will definitely do that as a student or resident in local colleges and universities.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

I will definitely do that as a student or resident in local colleges and universities.

That's great to hear. And, I hope others also attempt to do something to educate students at the undergrad level.

Some of the issues addressed in this thread can be fixed for the future of this profession but it has to start at the undergrad level (imo). It begins by showing these students that there is another option for them to think about other than the MD/DO route.

 

[Robert De Niro]

Why wouldn't they allow? is it because it pays well? or because they think its too complicated and so only they can do it?

Bc even though the state level might allow a podiatrist to do a certain procedure, an individual hospital can still restrict what they’ll allow you to preform. If you have an othro who looks down on Podiatry on the privilege committee (there’s more out there than you think), you’ll more than likely see some push back regardless of training. It sucks but that’s how a lot of hospitals work. That’s all Airbud was trying to say in his post.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

For example, start a pre-pod. club in undergrad.

Although, personal experience would dictate most colleges wouldn't have enough students to start a club for one.

At least not until the advertising picks up

Advertising still might not help. A lot of the applicants for podiatry are kids who either applied to DO and didnt get in or they were planning on DO, took the MCAT once or twice and couldn't get above 500 and decided not to retake. Its still good to advertise, but my bet is that there are such a small number of kids who are set on podiatry before applying for DO or taking the MCAT

 

[Robin-jay]

Advertising still might not help. A lot of the applicants for podiatry are kids who either applied to DO and didnt get in or they were planning on DO, took the MCAT once or twice and couldn't get above 500 and decided not to retake. Its still good to advertise, but my bet is that there are such a small number of kids who are set on podiatry before applying for DO or taking the MCAT

Many DO schools are taking sub-500 MCATs these days. You'd have to be stuck with 493 or lower to not have any chance at DO.

In fact, statistically, 30-40% of DO matriculates scored under 500. DO average is only 502 you know.

But I do agree, podiatry seems to be just as much of a back-up plan as everything else. But look at it this way.

90% of DO students would probably go MD if they could. So its also a back-up in itself lol.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Eh, there are a lot of people not getting into DO schools with a 500 either.

Also, there are a lot of people with 3.0-3.2 who can’t get into DO school either.

Many DO schools are taking sub-500 MCATs these days. You'd have to be stuck with 493 or lower to not have any chance at DO.

In fact, statistically, 30-40% of DO matriculates scored under 500. DO average is only 502 you know.

But I do agree, podiatry seems to be just as much of a back-up plan as everything else. But look at it this way.

90% of DO students would probably go MD if they could. So its also a back-up in itself lol.

 

[Robin-jay]

Eh, there are a lot of people not getting into DO schools with a 500 either.

Also, there are a lot of people with 3.0-3.2 who can’t get into DO school either.

Yea, those are people that think a 3.4 GPA with a 501 is automatically good enough, and then their EC's are just horrific.

So many people have 3.4 GPA + 501 MCAT + 50 hours of volunteering, and they call it good.

When people with a 495 MCAT has a masters degree, and has several hundred/thousand hours volunteering, shadowing, community service, clinical/hospital employment that can make it up.

plus your in-state schools are huge qualifiers. I know people with 492-494 get into schools that average 504, based on advanced degrees, EC's, and fitting the schools mission.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Well yah, but not everyone lives in Alabama or Arkansas.

Plus, there are those out there who got screwed by the grade replacement change. I know personally I retook 3 Cs and turned them into As and it brought my gpa from a 3.1 to 3.4. It was basically magic.

Yea, those are people that think a 3.4 GPA with a 501 is automatically good enough, and then their EC's are just horrific.

So many people have 3.4 GPA + 501 MCAT + 50 hours of volunteering, and they call it good.

When people with a 495 MCAT has a masters degree, and has several hundred/thousand hours volunteering, shadowing, community service, clinical/hospital employment that can make it up.

plus your in-state schools are huge qualifiers. I know people with 492-494 get into schools that average 504, based on advanced degrees, EC's, and fitting the schools mission.

 

[Robin-jay]

Well yah, but not everyone lives in Alabama or Arkansas.

Plus, there are those out there who got screwed by the grade replacement change. I know personally I retook 3 Cs and turned them into As and it brought my gpa from a 3.1 to 3.4. It was basically magic.

Alabama and arkansas do help, ohio DO school has a range of MCAT from 490-518.

That range shows how much MCATs can fluctuate for DO acceptance.

The person (s) with 490 to 494 probably had excellent everything else.

495-500 seems to be in a situation of "probably good enough somewhere".

500-505 is probably good enough at most places

505+ is good for DO generally.

 

[air bud]

Why wouldn't they allow? is it because it pays well? or because they think its too complicated and so only they can do it?

In my case the head of credentialing (Ortho) doesn't do Achilles because he thinks they are hard. So if they are hard for him to do then they are hard for me to do. So they get sent out of town to Ortho who does them. And ankle fractures are done by then since pay well and they want them.

 

[air bud]

I was about to say, if a podiatrist is legally allowed to do that procedure and they feel comfortable doing it, why wouldn’t they?

That’s the equivalent of an oral surgeon telling a general dentist they can’t extract wisdom teeth. If the dentist can legally do so and feels comfortable doing so, why wouldn’t they?

I am legally allowed to do this stuff. I am trained to do so. But I don't have privileges. I asked and was turned down. This is the real world. Egos and money Trump common sense. Just wait

 

[Robin-jay]

I am legally allowed to do this stuff. I am trained to do so. But I don't have privileges. I asked and was turned down. This is the real world. Egos and money Trump common sense. Just wait

That sounds horrible.Money trumps common sense. That's nothing new, but egos from other physicians shouldn't cause problems like that.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Well, once you are there for a while maybe they will turn around. Just as there is a DO stigma with the older MDs, those older MDs will be dying out. More and more people are starting to understand the depth of podiatry education.

Who knows, if you were in practice 20 years ago, that same MD might have said No to you giving ankle injections, or doing bunion surgery. It would have been corns, callouses, and ingrown toenails for you.

If if things don’t get better, jump ship, let the free market kick in and offer those services for a cheaper price. Go to a hospital that wants pods to do those surgeries for half the cost. If you are a hospital administrator and you have the option to hire a MD foot and ankle Ortho for 400k or a DPM for 200k who does the same surgical procedures, and will also do those fungal infections too.

And so what if DPM can’t take general call? Isn’t that what EM is for?

I am legally allowed to do this stuff. I am trained to do so. But I don't have privileges. I asked and was turned down. This is the real world. Egos and money Trump common sense. Just wait

 

[Weirdy]

I am legally allowed to do this stuff. I am trained to do so. But I don't have privileges. I asked and was turned down. This is the real world. Egos and money Trump common sense. Just wait

Sorry to hear that.

 

[air bud]

Well, once you are there for a while maybe they will turn around. Just as there is a DO stigma with the older MDs, those older MDs will be dying out. More and more people are starting to understand the depth of podiatry education.

Who knows, if you were in practice 20 years ago, that same MD might have said No to you giving ankle injections, or doing bunion surgery. It would have been corns, callouses, and ingrown toenails for you.

If if things don’t get better, jump ship, let the free market kick in and offer those services for a cheaper price. Go to a hospital that wants pods to do those surgeries for half the cost. If you are a hospital administrator and you have the option to hire a MD foot and ankle Ortho for 400k or a DPM for 200k who does the same surgical procedures, and will also do those fungal infections too.

And so what if DPM can’t take general call? Isn’t that what EM is for?

Well, once you are there for a while maybe they will turn around. Just as there is a DO stigma with the older MDs, those older MDs will be dying out. More and more people are starting to understand the depth of podiatry education.

Who knows, if you were in practice 20 years ago, that same MD might have said No to you giving ankle injections, or doing bunion surgery. It would have been corns, callouses, and ingrown toenails for you.

If if things don’t get better, jump ship, let the free market kick in and offer those services for a cheaper price. Go to a hospital that wants pods to do those surgeries for half the cost. If you are a hospital administrator and you have the option to hire a MD foot and ankle Ortho for 400k or a DPM for 200k who does the same surgical procedures, and will also do those fungal infections too.

And so what if DPM can’t take general call? Isn’t that what EM is for?

This isn't the way things work. I understand you mean well, but you have a lot to learn. And medicine is the furthest thing from the free market. There is no offering something cheaper.

 

[RedoxRxn]

In my case the head of credentialing (Ortho) doesn't do Achilles because he thinks they are hard. So if they are hard for him to do then they are hard for me to do. So they get sent out of town to Ortho who does them. And ankle fractures are done by then since pay well and they want them.

Hm, something smells of conflict of interest.

 

[air bud]

Hm, something smells of conflict of interest.

This is what I am trying to get through to you pre pods. There is no conflict of interest because that assumes 2 equal parties. Which in the vast vast majority of situations it is not. You are pod. They are Ortho. End of story. My group is literally sending away patients and all the MRI PT labs etc because of this. People are aware.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Have you told other people in the group about this situation? Seems to me that if people knew they were literally sending away dollars, Other docs would say something. That doesn’t make any sense.

I think this type of thinking will die out eventually. It wasn’t long ago people thought DOs were just super nurses.


Keep pushing foreword.

This is what I am trying to get through to you pre pods. There is no conflict of interest because that assumes 2 equal parties. Which in the vast vast majority of situations it is not. You are pod. They are Ortho. End of story. My group is literally sending away patients and all the MRI PT labs etc because of this. People are aware.

 

[Lamboboss1]

@air bud are you a pod?

 

[air bud]

@air bud are you a pod? and are you against podiatry bc most of your posts seem to go against it.

Yes I am a pod. Less than 3 years, graduated near top of class, did well known program, in multispecialty group. So I am not some old guy not residency trained crying because custom orthotics aren't covered as much as used to be. You can take my posts as pessimistic, and that's fine, I post just to help balance out the coin. There is too many puppy dogs and candy canes in the ore of forum. Too many people trying to justify their decision to go pod. Just wait, with a little perspective and 8 or 9 years you will be here too.

 

[ConsciousCalc]

Yes I am a pod. Less than 3 years, graduated near top of class, did well known program, in multispecialty group. So I am not some old guy not residency trained crying because custom orthotics aren't covered as much as used to be. You can take my posts as pessimistic, and that's fine, I post just to help balance out the coin. There is too many puppy dogs and candy canes in the ore of forum. Too many people trying to justify their decision to go pod. Just wait, with a little perspective and 8 or 9 years you will be here too.

So @air bud , essentially you are saying that it isn't some super terrible career choice even thought it is a back up per say. We just need to wake up to the reality that it isn't all puppies and rainbows out in the real world, am I correct? Im not sure if Im getting your complete message here. (Which I want read of course, you are an actual DPM) I should add, wouldn't everyones experience vary by practice/set-up/state? Or are you generalizing your posts for all Pods?

However, I think that many pre-pods do understand this. Let me just speak for myself, but I researched thoroughly about the profession and understand the limitations vary from state to state and even further than that at times when it comes to Hospitals. I think that many of us know that the pay will be substantially lower compared to our Ortho counterparts (although a small amount of Pods make booty loads of money). So either some pre-pods just aren't doing their research or I'm completely missing the message. lol

 

[GypsyHummus]

I think most people on the forum appreciate the honesty. People need to know the good and the bad and what they are getting into before dropping 300k+ and 7 years of their life locked and loaded.

With that said, I’m sure AirBud has some good things to say about the profession too, he is just bringing the other side of the coin.

I appreciate the honesty and reality check.

Yes I am a pod. Less than 3 years, graduated near top of class, did well known program, in multispecialty group. So I am not some old guy not residency trained crying because custom orthotics aren't covered as much as used to be. You can take my posts as pessimistic, and that's fine, I post just to help balance out the coin. There is too many puppy dogs and candy canes in the ore of forum. Too many people trying to justify their decision to go pod. Just wait, with a little perspective and 8 or 9 years you will be here too.

 

[air bud]

I think most people on the forum appreciate the honesty. People need to know the good and the bad and what they are getting into before dropping 300k+ and 7 years of their life locked and loaded.

With that said, I’m sure AirBud has some good things to say about the profession too, he is just bringing the other side of the coin.

I appreciate the honesty and reality check.

I will have some good news in the job search forum soon that will make some people more optimistic...

 

[Lamboboss1]

@air bud Can you list your cons about the profession in a little simpler way, maybe in one post with clearly stated opinions? I have a hard time understanding your true messages (which I really appreciate btw).

 

[de Ribas]

@air bud Can you list your cons about the profession in a little simpler way, maybe in one post with clearly stated opinions? I have a hard time understanding your true messages (which I really appreciate btw).

same here

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

My understanding is its a great profession if you accept it for what it is and not what it could be. Those expectations could be to high. Dont marry a girl thats a 4 and say itll be ok because eventually the acne will clear up and she will lose 50 lbs haha marry her knowing she may always stay a 4 and youre okay with that possibility