If you knew someone..... Opinion thread

[dyachei]

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I may be thinking about the personal side of it a little too much, but it seems like too much of an ethical gamble.

Also, what are the chances that you refuse to get someone to put in a good word and you meet a successful applicant that may have gotten in the way? There are too many "if's" in that statement.

it shouldn't be an ethical gamble if you aren't asking someone to put in a word for you. If someone is offering, the worst case scenario (in reality) will be that they ignore it. If done appropriately, they won't annoy adcoms. It should not hurt your application at all. And it is how things are done in the real world, including the veterinary medicine world, as sad as that makes anyone.

 

[Trematode]

This is SDN. Can anyone verify that I actually works? Someone on here must have done it at some point on their path to be a vet.

 

[dyachei]

This is SDN. Can anyone verify that I actually works? Someone on here must have done it at some point on their path to be a vet.

haven't several people already said they have done it? You can't "prove" that it works. It should only help, not get you into vet school.

 

[Coquette22]

It should only help, not get you into vet school.

👍 Quoted for truth.

 

[JoAnna423]

Maybe I am missing something...but "putting in a good word for someone" basically means they think highly of you, and will relay that message to whoever may be involved in making a decision about a job/school/whatever...thats pretty standard in the real world and isnt that just a verbal form of the letters we send to VMCAS anyway? If someone wants to pass on the knowledge that I am a hardworker, competant, and educated more power to them. As long as its honest I think its fine...and perfectly normal. I find it shocking how many people respond with "this is cheating"...if you think that "knowing people" does not influence getting a job after school you are sadly mistaken. Its not unethical...its networking, sometimes just luck, fair, and very common.

Also...I totally doubt that someone putting in a word for you would equal automatic admissions. Its really not a big deal.

 

[that redhead]

haven't several people already said they have done it? You can't "prove" that it works. It should only help, not get you into vet school.

Exactly. I don't think there's an ethical problem with accepting what essentially amounts to another LOR.

 

[Minnerbelle]

But if I were rejected from that school and found out that someone got in partially thanks to that good word, I would be pissed. It's one of those "it's fine until someone else does it" kind of situations.

But is that because you think the other person's being unethical? Or because you're just jealous that you didn't have the same advantage and you're angry at the world for being a cold and unfair place?

Exactly. I don't think there's an ethical problem with accepting what essentially amounts to another LOR.

👍. And just because it's not an official part of the application doesn't mean it's WRONG. People send in updates and stuff even if the school doesn't ask for it on their website. Sometimes you can ask in advance if they want it, but most of the time, you send those in with the thought that it might help but it can't hurt. Same thing. It's not against the rules (unless a particular school specifically says so), and anyone can do the same if they so desired. Nothing is stopping anyone from having their mom walk into the admission's office with a plate of cookies if they so wanted to "put in a good word" for them. So I don't think it's even all that unfair.

Anyone who accepts these offers are also playing a gamble to a certain extent too, so it's not like an automatic benefit. Knowing the right people and weighing these gambles and playing your cards right is also a skill on its own. Like, my SO's stepmom tells me all the time that I should have her introduce me to the docs at this specialty clinic that she gets therio help for her breeding/showing dogs because she is such a good client of theirs and she's known them for years. She thinks it should help me get a job there after I graduate. I will never in a millions take her up on that because I have a feeling I don't want to be associated with her... Who's to say that this higher up in the university that the OP knows isn't this prick who thinks his word is worth gold, but in reality everyone at the university hates him?

 

[StartingoverVet]

Exactly. I don't think there's an ethical problem with accepting what essentially amounts to another LOR.

and if the schools don't want this going on, they just make it clear to the committee that contact with people outside the committee is forbidden.

 

[BlackDog17]

But is that because you think the other person's being unethical? Or because you're just jealous that you didn't have the same advantage and you're angry at the world for being a cold and unfair place?

A little of both, to be honest. I would question the ethics of using that "good word" and would probably feel a little guilty about it, but that wouldn't stop me from doing it.

On the flip side, assuming another applicant and I were identically qualified, I would be angry if the other person got in just because they happen to know someone at the school. Not everyone is going to have that advantage, and it would be especially irritating if it was one of those "I've never met him, but he knows my parents so he did me a favor" kind of situations.

Obviously this is all completely hypothetical. No two applicants are ever going to be identically qualified, so it's anyone's guess as to how much weight that verbal recommendation would really carry.

 

[cowgirla]

On the flip side, assuming another applicant and I were identically qualified, I would be angry if the other person got in just because they happen to know someone at the school. Not everyone is going to have that advantage, and it would be especially irritating if it was one of those "I've never met him, but he knows my parents so he did me a favor" kind of situations.

Obviously this is all completely hypothetical. No two applicants are ever going to be identically qualified, so it's anyone's guess as to how much weight that verbal recommendation would really carry.

On the other flip side, assuming two applicants were identical in all ways, and one of them has someone make a call....Who's going to say that the ad-coms wont look at that, and say "Oh, well they are both great, but apparently applicant B isn't confident in their application because they had X make a call / applicant B is trying to take short cuts / etc etc. We better choose Applicant A."

As you said, it's anyone's guess how that recommendation will work

 

[tropictuco]

What about legacy admittance? I'm sure they don't do that for vet school (though the vet where I shadow is father/son and both went to the same vet school), but I think it's still in vogue in some Ivy League undergrad programs.

My great-grandfather went to Harvard and was on the board of admissions at some point. My grandfather could have and would have easily gone, except his mother didn't believe in kids going to school away from home (from what I hear, that sounds like a very interesting family dynamic). Anyway, so if my grandfather had gone, and my mother or one of my aunts went (which again probably would've been easy), I would have had a four-generation legacy.

Now I don't believe in mourning over what-ifs (I am extremely happy with the way my life has turned out so far), but would I take the legacy option if it was offered? I probably would have at least considered it. I have a friend who went to Harvard and she didn't like it undergraduate, so I might not have wanted to go anyway. But if it was my dream school and I had an in? Why not? That's the way Harvard chooses to make the rules. I'm only following them.

But of course the caveat is that if my grandfather had gone to Harvard, he would not have met my grandmother and I wouldn't exist. =P

 

[nohika]

Although I can't speak for vet schools, I can say that "who you know" plays a part in other grad school admittance. I'm applying for PhD programs and my mentor's contacts at other schools have been incredibly helpful - she knows who's good to work with, who's not, etc.

Although I never asked, I found out that she's putting in a good word for me with a couple people she knows at the programs I'm applying to. Networking is something that will be increasingly important, especially if you end up in an academic or big practice. It's always better to start gaining the skills now.

As for the example cited - "I've never met this person, s/he did it as a favor to my parents!" - do you /really/ think that'd have an effect on admissions? I think what most people are talking about that might actually have influence are the cases where someone who has actually worked with an applicant who is involved in the process is willing to speak up for the applicant, not some random Influential Joe Schmoe who doesn't know you from your friends.

Basically...it's not unethical but it's something you have to carefully consider. For those who may be borderline, it could push them over. But it's not going to get them into the program by itself.

 

[bunnity]

Re: legacy admissions - Penn does give extra consideration to family of alumni. Not sure what other schools do.

 

[Emiloo4]

If you knew someone that had "pull" at any of the schools you applied to... Would you use their influence to your advantage?

My parents are pressuring me to agree to having someone put in a good word for me.. But I don't feel like its appropriate.. They claim that " in the real world" this is how things are done... That " it takes knowing somebody" ...

Opinions???

I didn't read through all 60 of these comments, but I would like to add my experience.
My cousin is a professor at NC State who works directly with the vet school. He told me to "just apply to NC State" and he would take care of the rest.
I didn't feel comfortable with the idea and knew that if I got in, I would always think "I wasn't good enough, it was only because of my cousin."
I ended up applying there, and 11 other schools because I didn't want to depend on my cousin getting me in somewhere. When I told him, he told me I completely wasted my money and he had it covered. 🙄 Yeah... I didn't get into NC State. I was a little bit more shocked than the others, but it was the exact reason I chose to apply to more schools. And I am glad I didn't get in there, because I always would have wondered.
So my 2 points are: 1. "Knowing people" can't always get you into vet school 🙄. and 2. Don't do it unless it's something you can live with knowing.

 

[Emiloo4]

Re: legacy admissions - Penn does give extra consideration to family of alumni. Not sure what other schools do.

Definitely. It's one of like 4 questions on their supp app

 

[orca2011]

Definitely. It's one of like 4 questions on their supp app

Haha, very true. But it's not a guarantee either...at least with the other schools here. My neighbor graduated from Penn's Law school and his son applied there and ended up not getting in even though his parents donate money every year. I believe they are no longer donating money and I think he's going to law school overseas.

 

[Emiloo4]

Haha, very true. But it's not a guarantee either...at least with the other schools here. My neighbor graduated from Penn's Law school and his son applied there and ended up not getting in even though his parents donate money every year. I believe they are no longer donating money and I think he's going to law school overseas.

Yep, and I think that's the key here. Knowing people can probably help push you above the person who's stats are similar to you, but if you don't have what they're looking for in the first place, knowing some one can only get you so far.

 

[Trematode]

Grad school is a different than vet school (if you are doing a thesis-based grad program). For the grad programs I am interested in, you have to establish a relationship with the person you want to work with before applying. You have to be interested in their research and you have to be a good fit with that person's personality. If you do not mesh well with their interests or style, the partnership will likely fail. They prefer that someone who can give you a good word contact them directly. You also have the option of listing references on your application. I had my thesis supervisor pass on names of profs who he had met and thought I would work well with. He also met a biologist at a conference who saw my research and suggested other people to me. Networking is a huge part of grad-school. Everyone I know who has gone networked and found great supervisors before applying. And most of the time, there was little to competition.

How is getting into the vet school the same thing as research? Your LORs, grades, interview and experience should be sufficient to tell them everything they need to know. How is networking going to help exactly?

 

[nohika]

Grad school is a different than vet school (if you are doing a thesis-based grad program). For the grad programs I am interested in, you have to establish a relationship with the person you want to work with before applying. You have to be interested in their research and you have to be a good fit with that person's personality. If you do not mesh well with their interests or style, the partnership will likely fail. They prefer that someone who can give you a good word contact them directly. You also have the option of listing references on your application. I had my thesis supervisor pass on names of profs who he had met and thought I would work well with. He also met a biologist at a conference who saw my research and suggested other people to me. Networking is a huge part of grad-school. Everyone I know who has gone networked and found great supervisors before applying. And most of the time, there was little to competition.

How is getting into the vet school the same thing as research? Your LORs, grades, interview and experience should be sufficient to tell them everything they need to know. How is networking going to help exactly?

For one, networking is skill that will help you throughout life no matter what you do. I think the specifics are different in Canada, because most of what you listed isn't required here in most programs I know of. Anyways.

It's not going to get you in the program, but it'll help push a borderline app over who may truly be great, but may have had one or two snaffus that prevented them from appealing on paper as well as other candidates.

Like others have pointed out, it'll play a larger part after vet school, where who you know can influence residency positions, etc.

Btw, I've been sick all day and it makes me post funny and ramble. So.

 

[Foxhunter]

I just don't see the issue at all. I would gladly accept their offer and then send them a nice thank you card. I don't think it's unethical if someone says "Oh I know so and so and they would be an excellent candidate" You should use it to your advantage, Other applicants will have things on their app that you don't have and maybe could never have. This is to their advantage.

To whoever said this is clearly cheating, is it cheating then that Cornell takes into account whether your parents are Cornell graduates?

 

[Emiloo4]

I just don't see the issue at all. I would gladly accept their offer and then send them a nice thank you card. I don't think it's unethical if someone says "Oh I know so and so and they would be an excellent candidate" You should use it to your advantage, Other applicants will have things on their app that you don't have and maybe could never have. This is to their advantage.

To whoever said this is clearly cheating, is it cheating then that Cornell takes into account whether your parents are Cornell graduates?

👍 It's definitely not cheating. The adcoms are going to consider the source of the recommendation as well. They aren't just gonna take anyone's word.

 

[485501]

Grad school is a different than vet school (if you are doing a thesis-based grad program). For the grad programs I am interested in, you have to establish a relationship with the person you want to work with before applying. You have to be interested in their research and you have to be a good fit with that person's personality. If you do not mesh well with their interests or style, the partnership will likely fail. They prefer that someone who can give you a good word contact them directly. You also have the option of listing references on your application. I had my thesis supervisor pass on names of profs who he had met and thought I would work well with. He also met a biologist at a conference who saw my research and suggested other people to me. Networking is a huge part of grad-school. Everyone I know who has gone networked and found great supervisors before applying. And most of the time, there was little to competition.

How is getting into the vet school the same thing as research? Your LORs, grades, interview and experience should be sufficient to tell them everything they need to know. How is networking going to help exactly?

I don't know how much exactly this carries over into vet school, but I did have a friend of mine who is a doctor tell me that if the professors I met with put something in my file, even if it just said something like "I met with this student and she seemed confident and interested" it would make a difference to my application. She's going off of med school knowledge, but it's probably at least somewhat similar.

I also had several people who I talked to about my application (professors, vets, my parents, etc.) tell me that I should try to meet people who work in the vet school before I applied and during the application cycle, because it would help them remember me at the least.

So, I would say that networking does play a role in vet school, based on what I have been told.

What grad programs are you looking into? All the PhD programs my SO and I looked at, you apply, get in, and then do lab rotations/interview with PIs to find a mentor.

 

[Emiloo4]

I also had several people who I talked to about my application (professors, vets, my parents, etc.) tell me that I should try to meet people who work in the vet school before I applied and during the application cycle, because it would help them remember me at the least.

And on the flip side many of the techs in our hospital at UF don't get in year after year, so if you don't have what they're looking for, just knowing someone doesn't help. 😎

 

[485501]

And on the flip side many of the techs in our hospital at UF don't get in year after year, so if you don't have what they're looking for, just knowing someone doesn't help. 😎

Very true. Personally, I think the main advantage in knowing someone/having someone put in a good word for you is that it makes you stand out and be more memorable. Secondary benefit might be making the adcoms look more kindly at a bad interview. I don't think it would go much beyond that.

 

[Trematode]

I don't know how much exactly this carries over into vet school, but I did have a friend of mine who is a doctor tell me that if the professors I met with put something in my file, even if it just said something like "I met with this student and she seemed confident and interested" it would make a difference to my application. She's going off of med school knowledge, but it's probably at least somewhat similar.

I also had several people who I talked to about my application (professors, vets, my parents, etc.) tell me that I should try to meet people who work in the vet school before I applied and during the application cycle, because it would help them remember me at the least.

So, I would say that networking does play a role in vet school, based on what I have been told.

What grad programs are you looking into? All the PhD programs my SO and I looked at, you apply, get in, and then do lab rotations/interview with PIs to find a mentor.

I realize that it may be different here, but that doesn't mean it is wrong for me personally to think that networking is sort of iffy.

Basically, I was advised (and other students I know did this) that in order to get a PI for a MSc Biology, you network, then you apply. MSc applications usually state that a candidate should have a PI in mind before applying. You find a PI by looking at facility web pages, reading journal articles, etc., contacting that person and then applying to the program and for any necessary funding. On rare occasions, MSc positions are posted on university websites. You still contact the PI with your CV and why you want to work with them before even applying to the program.

I know students who have gone on to professional schools (mostly dentistry, med school and pharmacy) and when we talked about the application process, "who you know" never came up, nor did it come up with the vets, (one of whom used to be on the selection committee), vet school profs and my profs I talked to about applying. That is why it is iffy to me. Meeting and having two vet school profs tell me that they want to see me get in did not move my application from the rejection to interview pile yet. With the criteria for being accepted to my school being entirely based on interview performance, experience and grades, how is "a good word" going to help if they do not even consider references for the application process here?

I realize that vet school and professional school application may be different in my area, but that does not make my opinion about networking any less wrong, just showing a different side. Based on my experiences, networking is beneficial in the job world, if you want to do a thesis based masters, and if you want to get involved with research but with undergrad and professional school, you follow the admissions procedure. Getting in depends mostly on grades, place of residency and interview. It seems odd that vet school professors and a vet who was on the decision committee advised me to get good grades and large animal experience, not use them or others to "shove my way in". I would be surprised if someone admitted that they took advantage of someone else to try to help them get in.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I know students who have gone on to professional schools (mostly dentistry, med school and pharmacy) and when we talked about the application process, "who you know" never came up, nor did it come up with the vets, (one of whom used to be on the selection committee), vet school profs and my profs I talked to about applying. That is why it is iffy to me.

[...]

Based on my experiences, networking is beneficial in the job world, if you want to do a thesis based masters, and if you want to get involved with research but with undergrad and professional school, you follow the admissions procedure. Getting in depends mostly on grades, place of residency and interview. It seems odd that vet school professors and a vet who was on the decision committee advised me to get good grades and large animal experience, not use them or others to "shove my way in". I would be surprised if someone admitted that they took advantage of someone else to try to help them get in.

Trem, I think you're blowing this way out of proportion... No one is saying that it's so important that it's a criteria, or that it's something that everyone should be thinking of. It doesn't make a non-competitive student competitive or anything. We're also not talking corruption or blackmailing or admission in exchange for sex or anything.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I realize that vet school and professional school application may be different in my area, but that does not make my opinion about networking any less wrong, just showing a different side. Based on my experiences, networking is beneficial in the job world, if you want to do a thesis based masters, and if you want to get involved with research but with undergrad and professional school, you follow the admissions procedure. Getting in depends mostly on grades, place of residency and interview. It seems odd that vet school professors and a vet who was on the decision committee advised me to get good grades and large animal experience, not use them or others to "shove my way in". I would be surprised if someone admitted that they took advantage of someone else to try to help them get in.

1) no one is saying "shove" your way in.
2) if the vet told you to get good grades and LA experience, they obviously weren't going to push for your admission because they felt you were lacking.
3) And even with all that, that doesn't mean that they didn't already put in a good word for you, it just might not help.

You keep saying in undergrad and vet this is not true. Again, you think so.

I KNOW FOR A FACT this is true in undergrad. I have seen it happen many times (hey what can I say, I know influential people).....and I am pretty sure (not 100%) that it happens in vet school, it certainly does in almost every other graduate program.

You are using your case to generalize and deny all other cases... I am telling you that you are wrong from actual experience.

Of course it is going to vary at individual schools, and in individual cases, and it is NOT going to get an unqualified person in, but it does exist.


OT: At Wharton, when I was at the school, the son to the current biggest donor to the school (at that time - he donated funds to build/renovate a building) applied AND WAS WAITLISTED. So, there is a limit to how much any influence matters. Of course he was admitted off the weight list. So don't over estimate how much any help matters.

 

[that redhead]

Trem, I think you're blowing this way out of proportion... No one is saying that it's so important that it's a criteria, or that it's something that everyone should be thinking of. It doesn't make a non-competitive student competitive or anything. We're also not talking corruption or blackmailing or admission in exchange for sex or anything.

👍👍

Kpowell has already gotten an interview on her own merit. If she didn't get an interview and THEN the person said, "Give KPowell an interview" and then she got one, THAT would be bad.

 

[Trematode]

I am not blowing anything out of proportion. All I was stating is that networking for professional school seems to rarely go on around here.

Also, I did ask for proof that this situation has occurred and it does have a positive/negative/neutral effect on the applicant. Nobody really stepped up with information until now. Before that, it was all speculation.

Also, you cannot deny the fact that some individuals (applicants, adcoms, etc) may look at the the fact that you got an influential person (or persons) to put in a good word as a negative thing (you used someone with power to help get you in which may not be considered fair.). Also the point was brought up that the influential persons may not be liked by the adcom that is being approached. That is why I would be hesitant to something like that in that particular scenario. If it was well practiced and I knew the right people, why not?

 

[BlackDog17]

Also, I did ask for proof that this situation has occurred and it does have a positive/negative/neutral effect on the applicant. Nobody really stepped up with information until now. Before that, it was all speculation.

Well it's rather hard to give definitive "proof" that this does/does not work. When you call an adcom to ask why you were rejected, there's no way in hell they're going to say "Oh sorry, you did not get in because someone stopped by and told us that Kpowell is cooler than you."

 

[Foxhunter]

Well it's rather hard to give definitive "proof" that this does/does not work. When you call an adcom to ask why you were rejected, there's no way in hell they're going to say "Oh sorry, you did not get in because someone stopped by and told us that Kpowell is cooler than you."

Or "Oh sorry you were gonna get in but someone's daddy just donated money for a new wing"

I'm with SOV here. It's very tricky politically. I honestly don't have that much of a problem with giving one or two spots to people whose families donate a lot of money to the school. I get it.

 

[StartingoverVet]

Well it's rather hard to give definitive "proof" that this does/does not work. When you call an adcom to ask why you were rejected, there's no way in hell they're going to say "Oh sorry, you did not get in because someone stopped by and told us that Kpowell is cooler than you."

That would be pretty funny though. At least you would know who to hate!

 

[Kpowell14]

Well it's rather hard to give definitive "proof" that this does/does not work. When you call an adcom to ask why you were rejected, there's no way in hell they're going to say "Oh sorry, you did not get in because someone stopped by and told us that Kpowell is cooler than you."

Or "Oh sorry you were gonna get in but someone's daddy just donated money for a new wing"

I'm with SOV here. It's very tricky politically. I honestly don't have that much of a problem with giving one or two spots to people whose families donate a lot of money to the school. I get it.

That would be pretty funny though. At least you would know who to hate!

Y'all, it was an offer of a good word, not money for a new wing sheesh 🙄 I still haven't decided what to do.. I wish he never would've offered to be honest.. I knew I was going out on a limb asking the forum, but I figured y'all would have the best advice out of everyone since you've been through this process or are going through it now..

 

[Gemgrrrl]

I would say that it's only an ethical issue if the "good word" is not earned. I agree that opportunities come to you, to a great degree, based on who you know and how you leverage your connections. It's a tremendous help for someone at a high level to spend a little bit of their political collateral on you.

However, you should never ask someone who has not worked with you, doesn't know your character, etc to put in a good word for you. Not only is it unethical, but it puts the person who is being asked in an awkward situation. If they put their name on your admission, and you turn out to be a poor student or a problem student, then it will reflect poorly on them.

So I would say, if you have a direct relationship with the person and they have direct knowledge of your character, academic ability, or work habits, then by all means ask for their recommendation. But if it's a friend of a friend, you're better off not doing it.

Good luck on your application!

 

[Kpowell14]

I would say that it's only an ethical issue if the "good word" is not earned. I agree that opportunities come to you, to a great degree, based on who you know and how you leverage your connections. It's a tremendous help for someone at a high level to spend a little bit of their political collateral on you.

However, you should never ask someone who has not worked with you, doesn't know your character, etc to put in a good word for you. Not only is it unethical, but it puts the person who is being asked in an awkward situation. If they put their name on your admission, and you turn out to be a poor student or a problem student, then it will reflect poorly on them.

So I would say, if you have a direct relationship with the person and they have direct knowledge of your character, academic ability, or work habits, then by all means ask for their recommendation. But if it's a friend of a friend, you're better off not doing it.

Good luck on your application!

We established earlier In the thread that this is a family friend that I've known all my life. He offered.. I turned him down, and then he called me personally and asked me to reconsider.

 

[Gemgrrrl]

We established earlier In the thread that this is a family friend that I've known all my life. He offered.. I turned him down, and then he called me personally and asked me to reconsider.

So the issue you're concerned about is how his recommendation will appear to the adcom, right?

Then you need to weigh out what kind of relationship you have with him and what that connection will tell the adcom about you. Does he have direct knowledge of your skills, work ethic, academic ability, etc? Have you worked with him directly, or have you worked for someone he is close to? That's where the line is.

If his recommendation will it tell them about your skills/ability, in addition to the connection, then accept.

If his recommendation will only tell them about your personal connections, or who your parents know, then I would say decline.