If you want to get inside the heads of ACGME PDs and how they think of DO grads, just ask them

[Goro]

Data from the 2016-17 survey of 2016 NRMP Program Director Survey.

The data is also a gold mine for finding out in which specialty PDs (collectively) actually interview and rank DOs. Gas is easy; Derm, obviously is very hard (but not impossible)

Shown below is data for all specialties.

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[FlatIsJustice]

I dunno this sorta looks bad for DOs

Only 53% of programs frequently rank DOs compared to 97% for US MD Seniors.

I bet the majority of the 47% that don't rank DOs are more prestigious residencies or highly desired specialties/locations.

We all already knew that DO is the 2nd best option if you can't get into MD.

 

[Goro]

I see the glass as being more than half full rather than not 100% full and certainly more than some of the glass is empty

I dunno this sorta looks bad for DOs

Only 53% of programs frequently rank DOs compared to 97% for US MD Seniors.

I bet the majority of the 47% that don't rank DOs are more prestigious residencies or highly desired specialties/locations.

We all already knew that DO is the 2nd best option if you can't get into MD.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Data from the 2016-17 survey of 2016 NRMP Program Director Survey.

The data is also a gold mine for finding out in which specialty PDs (collectively) actually interview and rank DOs. Gas is easy; Derm, obviously is very hard (but not impossible)

Shown below is data for all specialties.



View attachment 209263

View attachment 209264

Never asked this before, but want to make sure: gas=general surg, right lol?

edit: i used to think for a long time that II meant secondary not interview invite lol

 

[racerwad]

Never asked this before, but want to make sure: gas=general surg, right lol?

edit: i used to think for a long time that II meant secondary not interview invite lol

Gas is anesthesia.

 

[toutou]

Never asked this before, but want to make sure: gas=general surg, right lol?

edit: i used to think for a long time that II meant secondary not interview invite lol

Gas is anesthesia.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Gas is anesthesia.

Lol oh yeah duh. Thanks.

But now I'm just curious I thought gen surg was generally easier for DOs than gas, or is this not the case anymore...?

 

[ritts]

Here's the rest:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

Thanks for this, @Goro

 

[Robotfishbrain]

I dunno this sorta looks bad for DOs

Only 53% of programs frequently rank DOs compared to 97% for US MD Seniors.

I bet the majority of the 47% that don't rank DOs are more prestigious residencies or highly desired specialties/locations.

We all already knew that DO is the 2nd best option if you can't get into MD.

Huh I had the opposite reaction. What did you expect when most DO schools have primary care as their school's mission?

Also a question for @Goro -- what does "seldom" really mean in the "Frequency of rankings and interviews?"

 

[Mad Jack]

Lol oh yeah duh. Thanks.

But now I'm just curious I thought gen surg was generally easier for DOs than gas, or is this not the case anymore...?

Anesthesia is on the easier side for DOs these days.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

What is pathway? The seem to have the worst chance but not sure what it is.

 

[ortnakas]

I'm just glad there's finally data for us instead of lumping us into "other" (with the IMGs and whoever else they consider other).

 

[Robotfishbrain]

Also important to note some of the response rates per speciality to this survey hover just over 30%

 

[Goro]

Not defined in the survey, alas.

Also a question for @Goro -- what does "seldom" really mean in the "Frequency of rankings and interviews?"[/QUOTE]

 

[lnguyen1412]

It is actually good to see that DO are second after MD in most specialties. (Beside highly competitive)

 

[ATPsynthase123]

Anesthesia is on the easier side for DOs these days.

How is IM for DOs?


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[wysdoc]

What is pathway? The seem to have the worst chance but not sure what it is.

5th pathway was a process for those with foreign medical degrees to become eligible to practice in the US, I believe by repeating MS 3 and/or MS4 in the US and then being eligible to interview for residencies. It is a program currently being phased out. No new 5th pathway certs have been awarded since 2009 and those with an already valid cert. need to apply to take Step 3 by December 2016. http://www.ecfmg.org/eras/applicants-documents-fifthpathway.html

 

[lnguyen1412]

How is IM for DOs?


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Look pretty good. About 84%

 

[Mad Jack]

How is IM for DOs?


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Also pretty good, but we're matching mostly community programs. Look at the report.

 

[Mad Jack]

Look pretty good. About 84%

87% actually. Anesthesia had 89%, rads somehow had 90%.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

Also pretty good, but we're matching mostly community programs. Look at the report.

I'm fine with that. What is the possibility of going from a community IM program to say a non-competitive subspecialty like ID?

I've heard that community IM essentially ends your ability to sub specialize.


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[Mad Jack]

I'm fine with that. What is the possibility of going from a community IM program to say a non-competitive subspecialty like ID?

I've heard that community IM essentially ends your ability to sub specialize.


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Depends on how community the program is lol. Should be able to do ID from most decent community programs though. And there's some university affiliated community programs out there that have their own fellowships or have decent fellowship placement rates.

 

[cliquesh]

I'm fine with that. What is the possibility of going from a community IM program to say a non-competitive subspecialty like ID?

I've heard that community IM essentially ends your ability to sub specialize.


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Not all programs in the same category are equal. Not all university programs are good and not all community programs are bad. In general, the non competitive fellowships, like ID and rheum, will be manageable from anywhere.

My classmate is doing cardiology and he came from a community program.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

Depends on how community the program is lol. Should be able to do ID from most decent community programs though. And there's some university affiliated community programs out there that have their own fellowships or have decent fellowship placement rates.

Lol obviously doing a residency at a 100 bed hospital will prevent sub-specialization, but I imagine a 200-300 bed facility would be fine right?

I was hoping that once I finish medical school to go into ETSUs IM program and then sub-specialize into their ID program. But that's 5 years from now. However it's nice to know that the option is available.


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[munchmeat]

How is IM for DOs?


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Primary care like IM is very realistic for DOs. I'm glad to see that gas is also somewhat manageable! Thanks for the info, Goro.

 

[cliquesh]

Primary care like IM is very realistic for DOs. I'm glad to see that gas is also somewhat manageable! Thanks for the info, Goro.

2/3 of DOs applying for acgme cardiology and heme/onc match. However, only 1/3 match GI.

I'm in anesthesia. Anesthesia is welcoming to DOs for residency and even more so for fellowship.

 

[Mad Jack]

Lol obviously doing a residency at a 100 bed hospital will prevent sub-specialization, but I imagine a 200-300 bed facility would be fine right?

I was hoping that once I finish medical school to go into ETSUs IM program and then sub-specialize into their ID program. But that's 5 years from now. However it's nice to know that the option is available.


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If you're at a 100 bed hospital with an outpatient ID management program and you've got some pubs, ID is still a very real possibility, for instance.

 

[katy524]

Does anyone know if "Canadian" includes Canadian citizens in a U.S. MD program or only Canadian med school seniors?

 

[CastleG8]

Do you guys expect the % for "Often" for Osteo to be as good or better in 10 years? Poisitive trend?
Thanks.

 

[Kgizzle]

And is this trend mirrored in fellowships as well?

 

[Robotfishbrain]

Do you guys expect the % for "Often" for Osteo to be as good or better in 10 years? Poisitive trend?
Thanks.

As DO med schools age and gain experience, I expect this trend to continue to be positive.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I've always been curious as to who the 2% of programs are that DO NOT consider US seniors...

 

[zero0]

I wonder if this is skewed by the fact that DOs never applied to some programs. i. e. you can't say you've ever considered a DO if one never applied to your program.

Otherwise these numbers look a little depressing honestly. I always thought that DOs were vastly favored over US IMGs but the difference really isn't that big. One can only hope this changes in the future.

To clarify, DO is still a better option (attrition etc etc) but once you actually get to the match, DOs really don't seem to be that much better off.

 

[Goro]

I know a certain dumb-ass resident who made it into gas, so I'd say that the sky is definitely bright in this speciality for DOs if s/he could do it.

2/3 of DOs applying for acgme cardiology and heme/onc match. However, only 1/3 match GI.

I'm in anesthesia. Anesthesia is welcoming to DOs for residency and even more so for fellowship.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I wonder if this is skewed by the fact that DOs never applied to some programs. i. e. you can't say you've ever considered a DO if one never applied to your program.

Otherwise these numbers look a little depressing honestly. I always thought that DOs were vastly favored over US IMGs but the difference really isn't that big. One can only hope this changes in the future.

To clarify, DO is still a better option (attrition etc etc) but once you actually get to the match, DOs really don't seem to be that much better off.

In the ACGME match sure, but throw in AOA and your chances at a competitive specialty are vastly larger than the Carib. Even post merger I would bet that it will still be better for competitive things to go DO.

 

[Rekt]

2/3 of DOs applying for acgme cardiology and heme/onc match. However, only 1/3 match GI.

I'm in anesthesia. Anesthesia is welcoming to DOs for residency and even more so for fellowship.

How do you find information regarding DO fellowship matches? Do you have one for pure CCM or Pulm/CCM?

 

[acapnial]

I've always been curious as to who the 2% of programs are that DO NOT co sided US seniors...

I always assumed it was programs that only take FMG's. Like Brown Memorial- https://www.brown.edu/academics/med...es/internal-medicine-mhri/residents-0/pgy1s-0

Although it does take the odd IMG too I guess

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I always assumed it was programs that only take FMG's. Like Brown Memorial- https://www.brown.edu/academics/med...es/internal-medicine-mhri/residents-0/pgy1s-0

Although it does take the odd IMG too I guess

Wow, I would have never thought that programs wouldn't even have one MD. In b4 some pre-med asks if going to Egypt for med school is ok because all they want to do is IM at Brown.

 

[lnguyen1412]

Wow, I would have never thought that programs wouldn't even have one MD. In b4 some pre-med asks if going to Egypt for med school is ok because all they want to do is IM at Brown.

Some residency programs in AL also take large amount of FMG over US MD and DO

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This begs the question though if the programs are really malignant or sweat shop type places. I mean are they matching a ton of FMG on purpose or are there literally no MDs applying. Either way it is interesting.

 

[acapnial]

This begs the question though if the programs are really malignant or sweat shop type places. I mean are they matching a ton of FMG on purpose or are there literally no MDs applying. Either way it is interesting.

Nah someone's gotta click the box under the wrong brown every now and then. My money's on malignant/sweat shop. My understanding is some programs like to have a full house staff of FMG's who have been practicing physicians in their own countries for a little while, so they can get cheap physician work with less supervision than American grads right out of school.

 

[cptnjack]

looks like PMR gets some major love, yas plz

 

[cliquesh]

How do you find information regarding DO fellowship matches? Do you have one for pure CCM or Pulm/CCM?

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/chartingoutcomessms2011.pdf

27 out of 44, 61% , matched pulm/cc.

 

[67552931811]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/chartingoutcomessms2011.pdf

27 out of 44, 61% , matched pulm/cc.

I feel like the landscape has significantly changed since 2011. But, I could be wrong, and unless they release another one soon it's all conjecture.

 

[zero0]

I know a certain dumb-ass resident who made it into gas, so I'd say that the sky is definitely bright in this speciality for DOs if s/he could do it.

Is it really that easy to match somewhere in gas? Or did he have major connections? Thing is I'm slacking pretty hard as is but I'm wondering if I could be slacking off even more

 

[MADD!!!]

I know a certain dumb-ass resident who made it into gas, so I'd say that the sky is definitely bright in this speciality for DOs if s/he could do it.

Lmaoooooo.

 

[doczebra]

Is it really that easy to match somewhere in gas? Or did he have major connections? Thing is I'm slacking pretty hard as is but I'm wondering if I could be slacking off even more

Gas is only 60% US seniors. It's a really really easy field to match.

 

[Goro]

So you're saying it's bad thing if it's easy to get into a specialty?

Or are anaesthesiologists now having a hard time finding a jobs? Or are the salaries going downhill? If these are true, then your stocks analogy has some merit. Otherwise, not.

BTW, you are definitely NOT the bonehead I was referring to!! Your posts I follow.

Anesthesia is getting easier to match into because US seniors are running away in droves.

Saying that the "sky is bright" in this specialty is kind of like saying Warren Buffett just sold off a lot of shares of a stock so it must be a good time to buy as now there are a ton available!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I dunno this sorta looks bad for DOs

Only 53% of programs frequently rank DOs compared to 97% for US MD Seniors.

I bet the majority of the 47% that don't rank DOs are more prestigious residencies or highly desired specialties/locations.

We all already knew that DO is the 2nd best option if you can't get into MD.

Not to draw attention to one of the earlier comments, but this doesn't actually say much about discrimination per say. More than 50% of DO students are in AOA positions. This means that only 3000 or so DOs are applying to ACGME as compared to nearly 20,0000 USMD graduates. Many PDs seldom accept DO applicants purely on the basis that they may get 1 or 2 a year and accept one as opposed to 7 MDs.

But it really depends a lot on the field. Lots of fields are very DO friendly, others like mid & top tier IM and surgery are not.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Anesthesia is getting easier to match into because US seniors are running away in droves.

Saying that the "sky is bright" in this specialty is kind of like saying Warren Buffett just sold off a lot of shares of a stock so it must be a good time to buy as now there are a ton available!

Hey, MD paranoia of CRNAs is good for DO matchings then.