Is lifestyle alone a good enough reason to rule out general surgery?

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Well, this might only be worth it if you don't think your situation could get any worse--but you could always speak with him directly and sort of 'apologize,' and explain that you didn't mean to question his judgement and will refrain from doing that sort of thing again in the future (or something along those lines). I mean it sounds absurd, and if it really happened the way you described you clearly did nothing wrong. But if you're already banned it probably can't get much worse, and it might be worth a shot if you really need this guy's approval.

I disagree. Addressing this will probably just irritate the surgeon further since I highly, highly doubt the guy cares to discuss this. best to just abandon ship rather than making a (certainly) bad eval worse

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I chuckle as I read all of this given my predicament. I've already bitched about it to fml for the past week but I'll just say that I had a situation last Thursday which ruined me. I scrub in a case and ask a question (for the sake of simplicity; did you need a hand retracting) and the attending tells me to shut up and not question his judgement. I do just that but I apparently asked the "wrong" question at the wrong time and was banned from any cases with him.
To think he's one of the faculty members you might/will have to deal with during residency - just for freaking asking whether he needed a hand for you to retract. This is the mentality that turns students off to general surgery with respect to having to walk on eggshells, that just doesn't happen often if at all, on other specialties. Your question of whether you needed to retract is not "questioning his judgement". I'm disappointed that you feel even a little bit that you asked the wrong question. I guess the Stockholm Syndrome starts early.

I don't think med students like W19 realizes that their Student Affairs office will not save them from caustic clinical faculty. You get a bad evaluation from a pissed off attending or a ticked off intern/resident who you cross as an M3, it goes in your Dean's letter in full, unedited.
 
hahahahahaha

that's another great thing about surgery

I spent three weeks with a guy and his only comment on my evaluation was, "seemed curious but asked questions at inopportune times". This is in reference to a single incident but apparently it's all he remembered

F surgeons
I always laugh at the Dean's letters where a clerkship has a full paragraph extolling the virtues of the student. That never happened on my clerkships.
 
Of course, I'm not condoning that behavior. My question is the same: Are you shocked?
I am not because I know there are human being like this dingus everywhere... But it seems like this is something that is very prevalent among surgeons...
 
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this is why i try to stand there quietly in the or and just do what i'm told to do
 
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I am not because I know there are human being like this dingus everywhere... But it seems like this is something that is very prevalent among surgeons...
I think I am going to be grinding my teeth a lot during rotations and residency...
The stress in General Surgery is much higher than in other specialties. So naturally it will be occur more often in that specialty. Yes, you'll need several diaries to encompass all of MS-3.
 
this is why i try to stand there quietly in the or and just do what i'm told to do
Me too. Go HAM in retracting. Answer the pimp questions I'm asked. That's it. No chit-chat.
 
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Well, this might only be worth it if you don't think your situation could get any worse--but you could always speak with him directly and sort of 'apologize,' and explain that you didn't mean to question his judgement and will refrain from doing that sort of thing again in the future (or something along those lines). I mean it sounds absurd, and if it really happened the way you described you clearly did nothing wrong. But if you're already banned it probably can't get much worse, and it might be worth a shot if you really need this guy's approval.

Well,
When he told me to be quiet, I wasn't phased. But he harbored such a... I dunno. I guess I took the "You need to impress this guy" to mean "Hey, I need to show I'm competent enough to do something here" not "I'm competent enough to stand still and quiet" Which case, I'd rather just manage the floor.

I disagree. Addressing this will probably just irritate the surgeon further since I highly, highly doubt the guy cares to discuss this. best to just abandon ship rather than making a (certainly) bad eval worse

See! You get it! The paradox! I was like "Do I ... apologize? Oh wait... he doesn't care"

To think he's one of the faculty members you might/will have to deal with during residency - just for freaking asking whether he needed a hand for you to retract. This is the mentality that turns students off to general surgery with respect to having to walk on eggshells, that just doesn't happen often if at all, on other specialties. Your question of whether you needed to retract is not "questioning his judgement". I'm disappointed that you feel even a little bit that you asked the wrong question. I guess the Stockholm Syndrome starts early.

I don't think med students like W19 realizes that their Student Affairs office will not save them from caustic clinical faculty. You get a bad evaluation from a pissed off attending or a ticked off intern/resident who you cross as an M3, it goes in your Dean's letter in full, unedited.

Yeah,
I chuckled because of the back and forth conversation we just had before I started this rotation. I was like "Did... DermV text this guy or something?"
 
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this is why i try to stand there quietly in the or and just do what i'm told to do

Well, yeah, I can understand you do doing that. But if this is an away/audition rotation... and you're actually interested in surgery. And the the chief is like "You need to show your stuff in the OR". Then what? I mean... I can make a mean playlist to lighten the mood.
In the end - there are times where you can just tell this guy doesn't like you and nothing you do/say will make him like you. And he's the guy involved in evaluating me. HURRAY!

Me too. Go HAM in retracting. Answer the pimp questions I'm asked. That's it. No chit-chat.
Yeah... I got those pimp questions right. Except when he asked me what you need to look out for when ligating the splenic vein. Vaguest question EVER. I almost wanted to answer "The pancreas..." But that amount of flippancy would've gotten me murdered by his bovi. Or something.
 
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Well,
When he told me to be quiet, I wasn't phased. But he harbored such a... I dunno. I guess I took the "You need to impress this guy" to mean "Hey, I need to show I'm competent enough to do something here" not "I'm competent enough to stand still and quiet" Which case, I'd rather just manage the floor.

See! You get it! The paradox! I was like "Do I ... apologize? Oh wait... he doesn't care"

Yeah,
I chuckled because of the back and forth conversation we just had before I started this rotation. I was like "Did... DermV text this guy or something?"
This is what I can't stand. A lot of things in that specialty are "unsaid" (hope that makes any sense). I mean it's not like you were standing there asking questions every 2 seconds ("Hey, is that the liver down there?" "Hey, is that where the cancer is where you're suctioning?") while the operating is happening with no social awareness. You were asking whether he needed another **** pair of hands to retract something.

You can't say anything all day, your BP increases, and then finally when you get home, you release your being pissed off by kicking the cat I guess.
 
This is what I can't stand. A lot of things in that specialty are "unsaid" (hope that makes any sense). I mean it's not like you were standing there asking questions every 2 seconds ("Hey, is that the liver down there?" "Hey, is that where the cancer is where you're suctioning?") while the operating is happening with no social awareness. You were asking whether he needed another **** pair of hands to retract something.

You can't say anything all day, your BP increases, and then finally when you get home, you release your being pissed off by kicking the cat I guess.

Hey as long as he's not kicking me, the princesses, or the Pomeranians, he can kick whatever he likes :D
 
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Is it surgery that attracts these kind of individuals or surgery turns them into dingus?
Good question. I think general surgery residency truly changes a person (just my opinion). There's really no way it can't. Are there some who are attracted to general surgery bc they think they have the license to bark at people, or kick people lower on the totem pole to take out their stress? (which is really not allowed as much anymore, but people can think that initially). I'm sure there are. Surgery internship is the most precarious situation, however. Once you're a chief, you're virtually untouchable.
 
Hey as long as he's not kicking me, the princesses, or the Pomeranians, he can kick whatever he likes :D
I hope you know someone who does good drywalling. Is it me, but I thought it was so cute you two responded in the thread one right after the other. LOL!!!
 
Yeah... I got those pimp questions right. Except when he asked me what you need to look out for when ligating the splenic vein. Vaguest question EVER. I almost wanted to answer "The pancreas..." But that amount of flippancy would've gotten me murdered by his bovi. Or something.
I'm guessing Advanced Surgical Recall didn't have the answer. lol.
 
There will be no kicking walls either!!!

And no I didn't notice till you just pointed it out...Ha.
Yes, fixing holes in walls can get quite expensive, esp. since it can't be perfectly fixed.
 
That's actually not that bad. It's November so no other program will see the evals and its not like he's getting a LOR. Worst comes to worst it's one program knocked off his list

No, I know that it won't go on the MSPE and no place will see it and he won't be getting an LOR (although the intent in doing it maybe was to get an interview there?) It's just that now it's relatively a waste of the month if he's banned off his cases and he's an evaluator (although hopefully not his main/only attending evaluator)
 
No, I know that it won't go on the MSPE and no place will see it and he won't be getting an LOR (although the intent in doing it maybe was to get an interview there?) It's just that now it's relatively a waste of the month if he's banned off his cases and he's an evaluator (although hopefully not his main/only attending evaluator)

Although, maybe it's a blessing in disguise, because now he won't waste his time ranking a program that sounds pretty malignant. I would hate to have to deal with a personality like that for 5-7 years. Although there is a very good chance I will end up applying to gen surg, so it might be unavoidable.
 
Although, maybe it's a blessing in disguise, because now he won't waste his time ranking a program that sounds pretty malignant. I would hate to have to deal with a personality like that for 5-7 years. Although there is a very good chance I will end up applying to gen surg, so it might be unavoidable.

Not you too?!?!?! (kidding)
 
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Although, maybe it's a blessing in disguise, because now he won't waste his time ranking a program that sounds pretty malignant. I would hate to have to deal with a personality like that for 5-7 years. Although there is a very good chance I will end up applying to gen surg, so it might be unavoidable.
I agree, it just sucks that he has to now waste 20 days on the rotation, when the attending has effectively blackballed him (in the worst way, I might add). At this point he might as well do this:
J0yzMvN.gif
 
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Meh.

I wouldn't extrapolate one interacting with one attending to the entire program being malignant.

The biggest d*** I worked with as a med student was a pediatric gastroenterologist. That doesn't mean the peds program was malignant.
Except Pediatric Gastroenterology is an elective. It's not a required rotation for Pediatric residents.
 
I told him to make origami swans out of gauze, seems like it would be a better use of his time than trying to please dr jerky mcjerkface
 
I told him to make origami swans out of gauze, seems like it would be a better use of his time than trying to please dr jerky mcjerkface
Is that his only attending or one of many?
 
I chuckle as I read all of this given my predicament. I've already bitched about it to fml for the past week but I'll just say that I had a situation last Thursday which ruined me. I scrub in a case and ask a question (for the sake of simplicity; did you need a hand retracting) and the attending tells me to shut up and not question his judgement. I do just that but I apparently asked the "wrong" question at the wrong time and was banned from any cases with him.
Did I ask the wrong question? Maybe. Regardless, this is one of the faculty I'm supposed to "impress" during this month and I failed. I made the decision to ask a question that I never in my life would think results in being banned from cases (okay, yes, some people still do that). I wonder what would the big boys on here would do - punch him in the face? Throw him on the ground?
You can't. I can't do anything. I'm one in a million. He's faculty. I screwed up. Go and try complaining to anyone about this incident and see what response you get.

That feeling of always being on edge and afraid to **** up was typical of my MS3 Gen Surg clerkship, and a large part of why I honestly think I was depressed during those two months. The behavior you describe is inexcusable ****ing bull****. There is literally no reasonable response or explanation for his behavior with you. "Oh yeah, get thicker skin," blah blah blah. Good god I'm so glad to be done with gen surg. Attitude wasn't the only reason I hated that rotation but I'd be lying if I said it didn't play a huge role.
 
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I think there are others.

Where's my bday thread, Dermie? :p
Oh, that's right! It is your birthday today!!! Happy Birthday!!! If I start a FML Birthday thread it will be closed for being off-topic.
 
Oh, that's right! It is your birthday today!!! Happy Birthday!!! If I start a FML Birthday thread it will be closed for being off-topic.

Haha. Ain't that the troof. My bday is tomorrow anyway, I'm just being an incessant brat. 11/11 :D

and to keep this on topic, at least he's only got three or so weeks left at that place
 
That feeling of always being on edge and afraid to **** up was typical of my MS3 Gen Surg clerkship, and a large part of why I honestly think I was depressed during those two months. The behavior you describe is inexcusable ****ing bull****. There is literally no reasonable response or explanation for his behavior with you. "Oh yeah, get thicker skin," blah blah blah. Good god I'm so glad to be done with gen surg. Attitude wasn't the only reason I hated that rotation but I'd be lying if I said it didn't play a huge role.
I totally feel you. The constant eggshell feeling can really fray your nerves by the end of 8 weeks. Your skin can only get so thick, unless you're made of stone.
 
Haha. Ain't that the troof. My bday is tomorrow anyway, I'm just being an incessant brat. 11/11 :D

and to keep this on topic, at least he's only got three or so weeks left at that place
Wait so he's in another city on your birthday? Yes, 3 weeks exactly.
 
...welcome to the funzies of long distance dating a med student. Yes. And, (thanks Dad) I have to work tomorrow anyway
Ah, ok. I thought he was doing the audition in close proximity to you.
 
To think he's one of the faculty members you might/will have to deal with during residency - just for freaking asking whether he needed a hand for you to retract. This is the mentality that turns students off to general surgery with respect to having to walk on eggshells, that just doesn't happen often if at all, on other specialties. Your question of whether you needed to retract is not "questioning his judgement". I'm disappointed that you feel even a little bit that you asked the wrong question. I guess the Stockholm Syndrome starts early.

I don't think med students like W19 realizes that their Student Affairs office will not save them from caustic clinical faculty. You get a bad evaluation from a pissed off attending or a ticked off intern/resident who you cross as an M3, it goes in your Dean's letter in full, unedited.

this process is so silly. good thing I will work far, far away from these people in my chosen field.
 
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this process is so silly. good thing I will work far, far away from these people in my chosen field.
There's a reason by the first few months into MS-4 (after audition electives, of course) everyone is like this:
fourprofile.png
 
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There's a reason by the first few months into MS-4 (after audition electives, of course) everyone is like this:
fourprofile.png

Throw in "finished with rotations by January" and its complete.
 
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Meh.

I wouldn't extrapolate one interacting with one attending to the entire program being malignant.

The biggest d*** I worked with as a med student was a pediatric gastroenterologist. That doesn't mean the peds program was malignant.

The only time I've seen a surgeon throw a hissy fit was the Chair of Orthopedics. I guess that better part of a million dollars really wears on the soul after a while. :rolleyes:
 
The only time I've seen a surgeon throw a hissy fit was the Chair of Orthopedics. I guess that better part of a million dollars really wears on the soul after a while. :rolleyes:
How about actually throw someone off all his cases? That's quite extreme, dont you think? Chairmen throwing hissy fits aren't surprising. They're used to getting what they want, when they want it.
 
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