Is WashU's ranking/reputation a pile of horse dookie?

[elias514]

I think it is. What about you guys?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[ckent]

It's a very strong research based program. It probably has the best MSTP program in the nation. Clinically though, I wouldn't know where to put it. Their admissions people seem to be too focused on numbers for my taste two. The new first and second years lecture hall so I think that new med students should be happy there. A lot of people that end up going there though, are the people that gripe about not getting into Harvard or Hopkins.

 

[GlcNac]

Wash U is definitely a fantastic school. In my opinion, however, it is not on the level of Harvard and Hopkins. Its place on the US News list is, I think, a testament to the manipulability of those rankings . In terms of # of high-profile faculty across clinical and basic science departments, I think Harvard, Hopkins, and perhaps a few other institutions could edge out Wash U. And student caliber as measured by criteria other than GPA/MCAT (e.g. extracurriculars, leadership potential, research experience) may be ever so slightly higher at a few other schools.

Also, while Wash U probably has the *largest* MST program in the country, I don't think it has the best. (This is only an opinion, as comparing MSTPs is extremely subjective.) I think most MD/PhD applicants would still rather go to Harvard or Hopkins and many would prefer schools like Cornell, Stanford, and UCSF to Wash U.

With that said though, Wash U is still a superb program with many resources and I don't think an MD or MD/PhD Wash U graduate would be at any significant disadvantage compared to a graduate from Harvard, Hopkins, or other comparable school.

 

[Tezzie]

It angers me every single time i hear such statements.

WashU has a reason beyond numbers that it has such a high ranking.

The curriculum is fairly traditional. But P/F system sure is great and the 4th year is composed only by electives. The facilities are great. Barnes Jewish as well as Childrens hospitals are simply amazing. The great thing about them is that you go 3 blocks down and you are in a very poor area but you go 2 blocks north and you are in a somewhat afluent area. So they are diverse. There are also plenty of superstar faculty. It is a research heavy school (70-80% of the students do research). The administration of the school is really great. The matchlist is definately really impressive. I also liked the fact that in WashU SOM you get to meet people from all diferrent types of undergrads (compare that to other schools that are very Ivy ugrad dominated). The students seemed friendly and have current friends who decided to attend WashU vs other programs and they love it and are really happy there. I also liked the E/Cs that current WashU students are doing. They seem to take active helping roles in the community.

On the plus side is the cost of living in St. Louis. You live in a major urban area (with all the things that come with that), yet you can afford a really nice quality of life with much less money than you would in other similar places on the coasts. There is this major misconception that St. Louis sucks as a city and there is nothing to do, but i think plenty of posters here who have lived in the area can assure you that that is not the truth.

Also by being a WashU student in the St. Louis area, it really helps sometimes. The university is really protective of the students and sometimes they go out of their way to help you.

I don't get why people always look down on WashU for it's median GPA/MCAT. If you compare it to Hopkins/Columbia they are really close. The reason why WashU has such high numbers could very well be by the fact that about 10% of their class are there on a merit based scholarship. Which of course will make the numbers go up.

I think because WashU is a fairly unknown school outside of academia, people have always problems with it's rankings. If you want a great education and you think that the school is right for YOU, then by all means try it. If your goal is to impress your future mother in law, the people in the grocery store or whomever then an Ivy med school would be more prestigious.

I try to speak as honestly as i can. It has nothing to do with me attending WashUs undergrad program. If i didn't like WashU SOM i would say so. But in my opinion it was one of my favorite programs.

 

[elias514]

Here are my misgivings about WashU: I've read some testimonials by current med students there, in which they complain about the inadequate preparation for Step 1 of the boards, the mediocre quality of teaching during the preclinical AND clinical years (the latter is particularly disquieting), and the lack of autonomy during years 3 and 4. In light of these complaints, I strongly suspect that the overall quality of clinical training at WashU lacks parity with its "peer institutions"--Harvard and Hopkins--and several other top med schools (Baylor, UPenn, Columbia, etc.).

The quality of clinical training is very important. Why do you think Hopkins is so highly regarded as a medical school? (Hint: it's not the quality of the preclinical teaching)

 

[Tezzie]

I haven't heard any complains about Step I preparation but it doesn't surprise me. It has been discussed in the past about Duke and Penn though (which are also AMAZING institutions). Maybe a current WashU SOM student can enlighten us.

I don't understand how can you say that students lack autonomy during 3rd and 4th years. I don't see how much autonomy med students during 3rd year have anyway (someone wanna shed some light here also?) but 4th year in WashU is just electives. Can you get any more autonomy than that?

I think that the quality of clinical training at WashU seems to be great. But i could be wrong.

To be quite honest i think that i would feel much much more comfortable here than Harvard because New Pathways left me with weird feelings. Hopkins on the other hand is Hopkins.

Plus the thing is that nothing in WashU is cast in stone. The administration is very open to suggestions and they are always looking out for improvements.

But overall i thought that Columbia, Penn, Duke and WashU were up to par with each other . It is up to the student then to decide where they are going to be more happy. To be honest there was only one thing that i didn't like about WashU and that was the discipline based curriculum during 1st year. Other than that i loved everything else about it.

 

[Jalby]

Originally posted by Tezzie

I don't get why people always look down on WashU for it's median GPA/MCAT. If you compare it to Hopkins/Columbia they are really close.

No, it's not. Maybe if you compare the GPA to Hopkins and then seperately compare the MCAT to Columbia, but Wash U has the highest avg MCAT's and 2nd highest Avg GPA. Not saying what the reason for that is, but it is significantly different from the other schools in the top rankings.

 

[Lochmoor]

I attended Wash U for undergrad and had a sister go there for med school. It seems odd that the students would complain about the Step I preparation. Wash U tends to have some of the best board scores in the nation. When my sister took them, i think she said that 3 of the top 10 scores were wash u students.

As for people chosing other schools over wash u, I dont think it's an accurate reflection of the quality of the education. I think it's due to the location of the school. Not too many people want to live in St. Louis. I had a friend who got into mstp at Baylor and Wash U and he was seriously considering going to Baylor, mainly because of location.

As for the fact that Wash U is solely numbers based, that is true. However, that doesnt mean that the students arent diverse. Many students took a year off to do some cool program or was an olympic athlete.

If you want to get into manipulating rankings, Harvard's research money is quite a farce. Their research money is from all of their hospitals and includes physicians that do not necessarily have any association to the school other than the hospital. So this inflates their research $$ way up there. However, I do agree with Harvard's ranking--if not for the education, at least for their reputation.

But when you get down to it, once you get up into those top 10 schools, location becomes the dominant factor rather than level of education because the differences are minute.

 

[Tezzie]

Originally posted by Jalby
No, it's not. Maybe if you compare the GPA to Hopkins and then seperately compare the MCAT to Columbia, but Wash U has the highest avg MCAT's and 2nd highest Avg GPA. Not saying what the reason for that is, but it is significantly different from the other schools in the top rankings.

Yes you are right!

I checked again and the avg MCAT numbers for WashU are much higher than other institutions.

GPA is a different story though. All of the top schools seem to hover around 3.7x and 3.8x.

 

[Tezzie]

The thing that upsets me is that you never see someone debating if Penn, Duke, Columbia etc deserve their rankings. It always comes down to WashU. And that is for all their professional schools and undergrad.

Just because WashU is not as "famous" as the Ivies and has an aggressive marketing campaign, doesn't mean that they are not a good school.

 

[elias514]

I equate "autonomy" with supervised, hands-on training--not the best equivalence, but that's what I meant by it. A few testimonials by WashU students have described their clinical training as more theoretical than hands-on. In other words, they develop a very strong foundation in pathophysiology, pharmacology, etc.--i.e, the scientific basis of medicine--but they lack solid experience in placing IVs, suturing, and various other basic techniques. Rather than actually deliver babies, they observe deliveries (however, this is fairly common at top medical schools that lack a public training hospital). Rather than make cuts and suture during surgical operations, they hold retractors. The list goes on and on, but you get my point.

In fact, I've yet to come across ONE testimonial by a WashU student that describes the clinical training there as hands-on and truly outstanding. Every student seems to draw attention to the institution's awesome reputation, amazing facilities (esp. the hospitals), and virtually limitless financial resources and opportunities for research. In addition, the administration is described as extraordinarily responsive to student needs, and the learning atmosphere (at least during the preclinical years) very cooperative rather than competitive. However, any positive comments about the teaching are noticeably absent.

I understand that some of the criticisms leveled at WashU shouldn't be cause for concern. In particular, the mediocre quality of the preclinical teaching and preparation for Step 1 of the boards is not that big of a deal. After all, the students at WashU are brilliant, dedicated, and excellent testtakers--they can figure out the material on their own and ace the boards with minimal assistance on the part of the school. But the mediocre character of the clinical years IS cause for concern, especially for people who intend to go into private practice instead of academia. If students lack adequate practical experience, their first year of residency will be harder than it should be. Being an intern is already hell as I understand it...why compound the difficulty with a lack of technical proficiency?

 

[bigbaubdi]

It seems to me that the reason why people criticize WashU so much is because WashU has been ranked as the second best med school in the country in part b/c of its abnormally high "selectivity" rating. Other schools have high MCAT and GPA averages but it seems as though they place a lot more emphasis on other things (ECs, leadership, diversity) than WashU. At Columbia for example (#2 in selectivity), I saw a large number of students who are musicians or actors. At these schools it seems like you have to have not only great stats but also great ECs, leadership, etc...

I didn't interview or apply to WashU however it would be interesting to hear how WashU compares to other top schools with high MCAT/GPA averages in terms of ECs, leadership, etc... At schools like Yale, Penn, etc.... I was struck by how interesting and diverse my fellow interviewees were.

 

[Tezzie]

Actually WashU has an incredibly diverse student body. Apart from being one of the schools that is not dominated JUST by Ivy League (or Ivy League type) undergrads, the students have truly unique ECs.

Actually most of WashU students are involved with some short of project in the community. It was one of the major selling points of the school for me.

 

[MacGyver]

WashU is a joke. The only reason they are in the top 10 at all is because they chose to sell their soul to move up the rankings.

If you are a bookworm with no life who has a 3.9 GPA, and a 38 MCAT, you are an automatic admit to WashU.

At Harvard and Hopkins, you are an automatic reject.

Harvard/Hopkins choose to take the applicants with 3.8/34 MCAT who have diverse life experiences, traveled the world, started first aid camps in africa, worked as a police detective, run their own ranch, publish award winning research, write poetry, play the cello, and write childrens stories.

Take a look at the US News methodology. It places an ENORMOUS amount of weight on GPA/MCAT. WashU purposefully tries to move up the rankings by ignoring the things (i.e. life experiences) that dont factor into the student selectivity ranks.

 

[Tezzie]

McGyver wtf are you talking about?

You mean that med students who attend WashU had no life? Just because someone gets a 35+ on the MCATs and a 3.8x GPA doesn't mean that they are not involved in their community and do other things.

Personaly i have a really high MCAT and a high GPA. But i am involved at plenty of orgs, have travelled, etc. It's the only way to keep sane.

When i interviewed at WashU most of the med students i came across were great individuals. So were the other fellow applicants. Contrary to Duke for example that i got snobbed by pretty much anybody i came across and Harvard where a guy said that "it's not worth attending any other MD school in the country unless it's JHU or Harvard".

Please.

Chances are - plenty of people who get accepted to Harvard are accepted to WashU and vice-versa.

**edit** : WashU would still be in the top 10 even if their numbers lowered. Look at their NIH money and peer assesment.

 

[jdg222]

Originally posted by MacGyver

If you are a bookworm with no life who has a 3.9 GPA, and a 38 MCAT, you are an automatic admit to WashU.

I volunteered at Wash U hospitals for three years and met many students there. None of them fit this stereotype. They all were very smart and good test takers, but they were also all very interesting people. True, My evidence is anecdotal, but probably based on more data than your comments.

I can't say where the school fits in with Hopkins/Harvard/Columbia/etc, because I don't know enough about those schools. However, I do know that Wash U is a great school with quality training.

That said it may be true that teaching plays second fiddle (sorry for the midwestern slang ) to research, but I guarantee you that all the students with a shred of assertiveness do just fine and are happy.

(It should be noted that I neither applied to Wash U med (the MCAT average scared me off!) or attended there for undergrad, so I am somewhat unbiassed)

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by elias514
I think it is. What about you guys?

WashU is a really good school, a lot of great research goes on there, and the facilities are quite nice.

Its definitely one of the top schools in the nation, this no one can legitimately dispute.

However, you do get the feeling that without the ridiculously high MCAT and GPA averages, that it wouldnt be ranked #2. Even though it might slide a bit in US News if it were to stop going for the high stats candidates, it would still be one of the top schools in the nation.

So its reputation is deserved, some of the great physicians of the past century have worked there, and a lot of the great discoveries have been made there. Its ranking might be a bit inflated, but even if we took out the MCAT and GPA portion they would still be one of the top schools in the country (probably just within the top 10, Id guess)

 

[exmike]

I think washU is definitely one of the best schools in the country. However, I dont think it is by any measure the equivalent of Johns Hopkins, which is what the US News rankings suggest. I think that is where rub is. I would have no qualms placing washU in the top 5 medical schools in the country, which is a pretty studly group by any measure.

 

[ice_23]

You guys are being ridiculous about WashU with attacks like:

"If you are a bookworm with no life who has a 3.9 GPA, and a 38 MCAT, you are an automatic admit to WashU."

wtf?

Almost none of the students I met there were like this. The reality of the matter is that it IS a top 10 school. People can debate about where it should be within that echelon, but it still is a ridiculously good school. Quit bagging on it like it's a piece of trash.

-Ice

 

[CalBeE]

Originally posted by Gleevec
However, you do get the feeling that without the ridiculously high MCAT and GPA averages, that it wouldnt be ranked #2. Even though it might slide a bit in US News if it were to stop going for the high stats candidates, it would still be one of the top schools in the nation.

Agree. Average MCAT and GPA of students can't raise a school from below average to top 10. Look at the methodology of the research model of US News ranking: Selectivity of student accounts for 20% of the ranking, so really it's NOT a lot. Even with lower selectivity, WashU should still remain as a top 10.

 

[JohnHolmes]

Originally posted by Tezzie
The thing that upsets me is that you never see someone debating if Penn, Duke, Columbia etc deserve their rankings. It always comes down to WashU. And that is for all their professional schools and undergrad.

Just because WashU is not as "famous" as the Ivies and has an aggressive marketing campaign, doesn't mean that they are not a good school.

Id have to agree with this. This is a very one sided argument. Wash U has the second highest Phase I Board scores in the nation, so where are the complaints from faculty. It might appear as though there is some numbers packing, in fact, there may be, but that doens't negate the quality of the school. If a debate were to center around the ranking, looking at ranking by residency directors, the individuals who have to deal with the "questionable training" that Wash U graduates receive. There are only four institutions in this groups of 4.5+ including duke. Columbia and Penn lag behind. Look at the match list. Why do people doubt this school.

Where is the criticism of Columbia. Their numbers are second to Wash U, so why stop the argument here? Don't they numbers-pack to make up for relatively low reputation and NIH funding ranks in US news to raise the ranking as well? Some say that those at Wash U complain they didn't get into Duke, Harvard, etc. While I don't know anything about this, I did hear for a fact students at Columbia complaining they didn't get into Penn, Duke, and Wash U. This doesn't really say anything. Someone may be completely miserable at Harvard because they had their heart set on Hopkins.

So if you want to have a discussion, lets have an equitable discussion. Does everyone deserve their rankings? Who is to say one institution does and another does not.

What is Wash U's biggest weaknesses? Overinflation of reputation, I doubt it. In fact, I think its underinflated. I wish more people had heard of the school and the great opportunities it provides. Maybe the true problems are no MPH programs (for those interested in that) and a location in MO (for those who are on the East Coast and want to stay there). Do either of those reflect poorly on the MD program? I don't think so.

Coops

 

[jjmack]

My question is to the orginal poster. After interviewing at wash u what did you think? I have interviewed at both wash u and u mich. I really loved them both. I think they are both amazing schools. Clinically they are both top notch, but where I think Wash u excells above u mich is in research and the us news ranking are not for "the best medical school", but for "the best medical schools- research."

 

[elias514]

Having interviewed at WashU, I can honestly say that it's a great medical school. WashU deserves its top-ten ranking. The clinical facilities are awesome, the teaching (according to current med students there) is excellent, the student body is filled with brilliant and talented individuals, and the environment is very cooperative and nurturing. I was really impressed by WashU. But I still feel that UMich is the right place for me--I really loved that school. In terms of reputation and overall quality of education, I think that UMich and WashU are on par, but Ann Arbor blows away St. Louis. So it looks like I'm gonna be a wolverine! Go blue! Yeeeeeeeehaw!

 

[JohnHolmes]

Originally posted by elias514
I was really impressed by WashU. But I still feel that UMich is the right place for me--I really loved that school.

Great response!

Coops

 

[Dwahl]

hey, right now i'm choosing between these 2 schools as well.

while i'm not sure where i'll end up yet (financial info is pending), i can say that i think i'd be happy at either.

Wash U's research is a big draw, but i love ann arbor (it's where i grew up). Also, i'm gonna be going to school with my gf who will be attending law school. U mich's law school blows Wash U's out of the water (she's into both as well).

so yeah, I really don't know which one i'll choose. your thoughts would be appreciated.

oh, and you'll love the football games, they're incredible.

 

[siempre595]

Before you really go attacking any school, I'd urge you, if you're considering the school, to come back and visit the school and the city and see what it is REALLY like. WashU is a fabulous place to be in med school, the students are amazing (I know very few who are nerds who do nothing but study), the faculty will absolutely go out of their way to help you, and the city is NOT a big city, but it's incredibly comfortable and has everything you really want. I could care less about how much funding med schools get and how that places rankings and blah blah. Maybe the rankings are about the numbers, but the school is about the people and the quality of education. If we got our ranking because there are a lot of NIH research dollars roaming around here, so be it. But there's a lot of other great stuff going on here also. It's a really great med school with awesome people. And don't fuss about the city till you've actually lived here for awhile, it's no New York and it doesn't try to be, if you want that then go elsewhere, but that's not what you're going to med school for anyhow.

 

[mlw03]

on behalf of myself and probably a lot of others - WHEN you do in fact make your decisions, please let go of the other school(s). moving to a new city takes time, and the sooner top people let go of their extra schools, the sooner the trickle down begins (and we all know it will happen, and that it's gonna be a big snowball by the time it gets to the bottom of the mountain).

 

[ewing]

Originally posted by Cooper_Wriston
Where is the criticism of Columbia. Their numbers are second to Wash U, so why stop the argument here? Don't they numbers-pack to make up for relatively low reputation and NIH funding ranks in US news to raise the ranking as well?

OK. I'll speak out against the Columbia admissions office. It blows. They have a one-man committee and he takes people who he thinks will fit in with the class he makes in his own image. The vast majority of the class went to Ivy undergrads and is of high socio-economic status.

Andrew Frantz is the single biggest reason I didn't even bother applying to Columbia, even though I have every reason to believe I'd be a very competitive candidate there (a few of my references graduated from or work at Columbia Med) and it is a much better school than some of the places I did apply to.

I think that Columbia is a great universitry and has a great hospital system, but their addmissions office was the dealbreaker for me. I also think that their USNews ranking may be a bit skewed -- especially since I happily paid appliation fees and bought plane tickets for schools much lower on USNews' pecking order because I thought they had better admissions policies / class makeups.

I don't think Columbia belongs in the same league as H&H, Penn, Yale, UCSF, and so on. I have no opinion about WashU. I've never been to St. Louis. I think the merit-based aid to 10% of the class may play a big part in their perceived MCAT whoring, but I still think the MCAT was never designed to be accurate above 40, so they're wasting their money. A good friend of mine who is now a surgeon flew from NYC to Barnes Jewish for surgery a few years back and thought it was an amazing program.

 

[calcrew14]

From a contrarion's point of view, I think that each one of you clutch hitters will make your school looks better and better all the time and the debate in quality of medical schools prior to your matriculation may be just irrelevant. Have a nice record breaking home run everyone!