jobs after residency

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meats

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This may be a little silly...but I've been surfing the net and came across several horror stories from previous pods...that couldn't find jobs after residencies...
So. I guess my question is do people often find themselves in a deep hole after residency? without any job offers?
What is the best way to find a decent paying job after residency?
It seemed from what i read that it was nearly impossible to find jobs as a podiatrist...or you often end up with the low-paying ones, where all you do is clip toenails...so now i am a bit scared....:(
any thoughts on this? :confused:
Thanks!

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This may be a little silly...but I've been surfing the net and came across several horror stories from previous pods...that couldn't find jobs after residencies...
So. I guess my question is do people often find themselves in a deep hole after residency? without any job offers?
What is the best way to find a decent paying job after residency?
It seemed from what i read that it was nearly impossible to find jobs as a podiatrist...or you often end up with the low-paying ones, where all you do is clip toenails...so now i am a bit scared....:(
any thoughts on this? :confused:
Thanks!

There are no gauruntees in life. I know a general surgeon that does not have a real job - He only moonlights.
 
This may be a little silly...but I've been surfing the net and came across several horror stories from previous pods...that couldn't find jobs after residencies...
So. I guess my question is do people often find themselves in a deep hole after residency? without any job offers?
What is the best way to find a decent paying job after residency?
It seemed from what i read that it was nearly impossible to find jobs as a podiatrist...or you often end up with the low-paying ones, where all you do is clip toenails...so now i am a bit scared....:(
any thoughts on this? :confused:
Thanks!

Granted there are no guarantees in life, if you study and work hard, you will have a job for you after residency. It depends on where you want to practice and what you can bring to the table.

Sometimes what you see posted on the internet sites have to be taken with a grain of salt. Is the posting on the net from a reputed practictioner or is just another disgruntled "c&c'er" who couldn't adapt to the changes that have occured in podiatry over the past 10 years?

I've been in practice for a little over 8 years and I've been in multiple practice situations, but if I had to do it all over again, I would still choose podiatry. There are plenty of oppurtunities out there, but if you don't apply yourself in the years that count, it's going to be hard to find that job. Remember jobs don't come to you, you have to seek them out.
 
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This may be a little silly...but I've been surfing the net and came across several horror stories from previous pods...that couldn't find jobs after residencies...
So. I guess my question is do people often find themselves in a deep hole after residency? without any job offers?
What is the best way to find a decent paying job after residency?
It seemed from what i read that it was nearly impossible to find jobs as a podiatrist...or you often end up with the low-paying ones, where all you do is clip toenails...so now i am a bit scared....:(
any thoughts on this? :confused:
Thanks!

All residents from my program have had and accepted very good offers. Yea, I've heard the horror stories but I can honestly say that I've never seen it. I know many people from multiple programs that have done very well out of residency. I think the horror stories come from a different era when training wasn't what it is now. It wasn't too long ago when many pods received no training beyond pod school.
 
Thanks guys...you're great role models!!!
I guess maybe I just panicked a bit! You're right...there has been a lot of (good) change over the past decade in the field in terms of training...and it's def not the same as it used to be.
Keep up the good work :thumbup:, I hope to be there someday too :)
 
Medical and dental students, for the most part, seem to have no problems nabbing jobs after residency (or, in dental students' cases, after dental school); from what I have read, podiatry is the only field for which people say that your marketability as a podiatrist depends on how hard you work during residency/podiatry school. What, exactly, does this mean? Do podiatrists that are potential employers place heavy value on podiatry school grades and residency location, performance, etc.?

Just wondering what the deal is...
 
Medical and dental students, for the most part, seem to have no problems nabbing jobs after residency (or, in dental students' cases, after dental school); from what I have read, podiatry is the only field for which people say that your marketability as a podiatrist depends on how hard you work during residency/podiatry school. What, exactly, does this mean? Do podiatrists that are potential employers place heavy value on podiatry school grades and residency location, performance, etc.?

Just wondering what the deal is...

No, just if you don't apply yourself during medical school, you might not get the best residency out there. And if you're not in the best residency and goof off for another three years, you might not get that "dream job" that you envisioned. Everyone will get their job, but it just depends on how you apply yourself in med school and residency (ie. work ethic).
 
No, just if you don't apply yourself during medical school, you might not get the best residency out there. And if you're not in the best residency and goof off for another three years, you might not get that "dream job" that you envisioned. Everyone will get their job, but it just depends on how you apply yourself in med school and residency (ie. work ethic).

You took the words right out of my mouth. :thumbup:
 
Thanks for the clarification, sportPOD.

One other thing -- I recall reading a thread a while back which addressed the issue of associate podiatrist salaries, and I think I recalled seeing lots of numbers in the $40-60k range. However, when I do a Google search for "podiatrist salary," I get approximately $150k (not sure if they're actually talking about salaried associate podiatrists, though). I tried checking the APMA's site, but it seems to be down (or just really, really slow) at the moment. Can anyone else provide a reliable associate salary figure?
 
Thanks for the clarification, sportPOD.

One other thing -- I recall reading a thread a while back which addressed the issue of associate podiatrist salaries, and I think I recalled seeing lots of numbers in the $40-60k range. However, when I do a Google search for "podiatrist salary," I get approximately $150k (not sure if they're actually talking about salaried associate podiatrists, though). I tried checking the APMA's site, but it seems to be down (or just really, really slow) at the moment. Can anyone else provide a reliable associate salary figure?


Majority of salaries are in the $80 - 100K range and throw in benfits it will climb to $120K - $130K range. It always comes down to what the practice can offer the new podiatrist. Are they taking over an existing overflowing practice or do they have to come in and develop their own practice but share the overhead with the senior podiatrist. Also, it helps to look at the books, to make sure that the podiatrist is bringing in enough business to support the new podiatrist while he/she is getting on insurance plans.

I've kind of gone over what to look for in the salary from another thread, I'll see if I can find it for you.
 
sportPOD, thanks for the input; that sounds like a good deal, especially for those coming right out of school.

One other thing...do you know of any online "podiatry jobs" sites? I can't seem to find more than one or two websites that post any openings at all (and most of these sites only have one or two openings posted). I know that anesthesia and a few other fields of medicine have their own job websites, so I was just curious if you knew of a site dedicated to podiatry jobs (or, at least, a site with a number of jobs) that I could browse.
 
There are more pod grads than jobs.

If you were a greedy employer, would you hire a person for 150k when you could get one to work the same and do about the same work for 60k plus 5% of sales over 1k/day ie, the 'used car sales incentive?'

Regardless of jobs w/ groups etc, more money is to be made in your own self-owned practice and has nothing to do with grades or residency location, but to get your board numbers to sit for that 'high powered' surgical board that is unique to pods, you'll probably have to do 'things' for someone else. Just make sure it is ethical but if it isn't just turn them in to the feds and move on.

Good luck and make sure you understand the process.
 
What?! :eek:

Is the field really that saturated with pods?
 
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There are more pod grads than jobs.

I completely disagree and I'm sure you have nothing to back that statement up. I have never seen or met a pod that didn't have a job out of residency. Some jobs may better than others.

I would argue that as podiatry has become mainstream medicine over the past decade, there are more jobs available now than ever. Private practice, multispecialty, ortho groups, hospital, etc. You name it, it's out there.
 
What?! :eek:

Is the field really that saturated with pods?

yes and no, depending on where you go. If you go to NY, Chicago, Miami, etc, you'll see a saturation level because there are many, many residency programs there and also a school that's been there for a long time, therefore ppl are more likely to stay in the area, plus, imagine all the ppl trying to get back into, say, Chicago after doing a residency somewhere, say, pittsburgh...;)

If you go to other states, like Mich or VA or TX, there may be better offers and sometimes a lot more than you expected because there is less pods practicing or set up in an area. I think ND offered my friend $120K starting salary, plus benefits because there was only 4-5 pods in the entire state! (please check on that for me, because he could be bs'ing me and it's just rumor at this point).

Also, it really depends on the level of your training and where you train at. It's been said time and time again, if you aren't trained to be the best, then don't expect the best offer... it's that simple.

Don't worry so much about salary, chances are you'll probably associate with someone for about a year or 2 adn then start your own practice or partner with someone, then you start making the "real" money. good luck with school.
 
Stafocker, thanks for the advice. Do you know if Georgia is oversaturated with podiatrists? I ask because GA is the state I've grown up in, and so I would like to come back here after school and be an associate, partner, etc.

Also, when it comes to landing an associateship, how does the process work? If I want to practice in GA, is it imperative that I do a residency in that state? When I graduate from my residency program and am ready to find a job as an associate, do I just fire off my resume to practices in the city I want to work in?

Thanks...

EDIT: Some of these "podecdotes" are somewhat alarming; check this out: http://www.network54.com/Forum/23927/message/1170498910/fear. I really am interested in podiatry, but do the majority of these horror stories carry weight (and there are plenty, especially on that forum)? Howcome there aren't countless horror stories from MD/DO or DDS/DMD grads? Not trying to stir up any negativity, but I want to look out for my future as a marketable professional.
 
Stafocker, thanks for the advice. Do you know if Georgia is oversaturated with podiatrists? I ask because GA is the state I've grown up in, and so I would like to come back here after school and be an associate, partner, etc.

Also, when it comes to landing an associateship, how does the process work? If I want to practice in GA, is it imperative that I do a residency in that state? When I graduate from my residency program and am ready to find a job as an associate, do I just fire off my resume to practices in the city I want to work in?

Thanks...

EDIT: Some of these "podecdotes" are somewhat alarming; check this out: http://www.network54.com/Forum/23927/message/1170498910/fear. I really am interested in podiatry, but do the majority of these horror stories carry weight (and there are plenty, especially on that forum)? Howcome there aren't countless horror stories from MD/DO or DDS/DMD grads? Not trying to stir up any negativity, but I want to look out for my future as a marketable professional.

wow dude, dramatic... haha, honestly, it's one guy's personal experience, but I guess I defend it as a part of explaining it at the same time.

It has been difficult at first to explain this field, especially to other Asians who are hyper competitive esp in the medical field. I've got 2 cousins as MD's, both making decent money (one in NY, the other in Arkansas and the south wins in the money race believe it or not!!!). For the most part, they just respect it cause i'm their cousin and my friends do to without any explanation, but I tend to WANT to defend it more than I really need to.

Now about GA, again, i guess it's just where in GA you're talking about. There are 2 residency programs in Atlanta, one at the DVA and one at Dekalb County, I think there is only one other one left in Augusta at another DVA. I wouldn't say it's "saturated" in GA, but it's probably saturated in Atlanta. I did rotations at both Atlanta programs and a lot of their grads stayed in the area. I guess you could probably check your yellow pages and find out easier or even google it with the you have area code in mind.

I know of a great doc, Dr. B in Gainesville, GA who is from the St. Vincent program in Cleveland. He came down to GA and is really raking it in, but he's a very personable guy with a great relationship with other docs in the area, getting referrals, etc. He' probably be the best person to ask about setting up in GA from another state. Due to advice from other posters, i can't list his name on this forum, but here's a website where you can get more information if you choose to contact him.

http://www.stvincentpodiatry.org/life_after_residency.html

good luck, hope this helps.
 
Stafocker, thanks for the advice. Do you know if Georgia is oversaturated with podiatrists? I ask because GA is the state I've grown up in, and so I would like to come back here after school and be an associate, partner, etc.

Also, when it comes to landing an associateship, how does the process work? If I want to practice in GA, is it imperative that I do a residency in that state? When I graduate from my residency program and am ready to find a job as an associate, do I just fire off my resume to practices in the city I want to work in?

Thanks...

EDIT: Some of these "podecdotes" are somewhat alarming; check this out: http://www.network54.com/Forum/23927/message/1170498910/fear. I really am interested in podiatry, but do the majority of these horror stories carry weight (and there are plenty, especially on that forum)? Howcome there aren't countless horror stories from MD/DO or DDS/DMD grads? Not trying to stir up any negativity, but I want to look out for my future as a marketable professional.

Henry, I suggest you do not go to that forum any more. It is like a panic room where people spaz out. It is well known amongst us a place where the disgruntled congregate and reading it will give you palpitations.

You do not necessarily have to do Residency where you want to end up, although it would help to make contacts. It would be a better idea to do the best Residency you can get wherever it is, then find places where you want to live later.

Unfortunately many Associateships do not end up in Partnership. I did not see the data myself but was told that over 50% end with the Associate leaving the practice (and also the immediate area since most contracts have a Covenant Not To Compete). There are many reasons for this data, too lengthy to get into on this post, but I think it can be interpreted as, "you have a 50:50 chance of staying with the first group you join." Personally, not a single podiatrist I've ever known has stayed with his or her first group.

I would enter an Associateship with the understanding that if things don't work out I will pack up and leave town. My Attorney told me that non-compete clauses are rarely if ever contested and won by the employee. If you leave yourself a "back door" then you won't feel pressured into Partnering in a group if it is not the right offer. Practice buy-ins can make student loans look like chump change, so make sure it's the right practice with the right offer.

I've said it before: the nice thing about this profession is that you do not have to rely on someone else to give you a job. You can be your own boss. You can start your own practice if you can't find someone to hire you. If no one is hiring wherever you want to live, you may be able to set up shop there on your own.

The trouble is, how do you learn to run a practice if you were to open up on your own? It's definitely daunting, but many have done it. You may have to seek out that knowledge on your own outside of your formal training. If you hire on as an Associate, make sure you take the time to learn everything you can about running a practice, so if you buy-in you will understand what you are buying or if you leave you can take that knowledge with you and you'll have the option of starting your own practice if you want.

Nat
 
I would enter an Associateship with the understanding that if things don't work out I will pack up and leave town. My Attorney told me that non-compete clauses are rarely if ever contested and won by the employee. If you leave yourself a "back door" then you won't feel pressured into Partnering in a group if it is not the right offer. Practice buy-ins can make student loans look like chump change, so make sure it's the right practice with the right offer.

Depending on your state laws and practices, most non-compete clauses cannot be enforced unless the practice that you're leaving has a patented process to practice podiatry. If you leave this practice and set up elsewehere, you might cause a financial harm to the former practice and so you shouldn't set up shop down the road from your former practice. It's very rare that there are podiatry practices out there with some type of patented process. The problem is that you have to have alot of money to fight this and that's why most associates move on and get away from their former employer.

Nat brings up a good point, learn to bill and run an office as soon as you can. I suggest even as early as clinicals in med school. You don't necessarily have to learn everything, but if you start picking the staff's brain you might learn something new each day. I highly suggest this during your residency. I learned alot of my business tips while I was in private offices in residencies (and not just podiatry offices).

Always have a good accountant and a lawyer (tax and/or contract) around to help you out with business decisions. It will cost money, but it is worth it in the end.
 
Is the non-compete clause commonly invoked in other fields of health care (such as dentistry or MD/DO medicine)? It seems awfully harsh and consequential to even sign on as an associate podiatrist, considering that, if things don't work out, the associate is forced to sell my home, uproot my family, and move to a new city.

I'm currently considering both dental and podiatry school (hell, maybe even medical school, too). I like podiatry-related subjects -- I run, bike, have sprained my ankle, got orthotics when I was 10, have diabetic relatives with podiatrist experiences, etc. I feel more like podiatry would be a career that reflects many of my hobbies and interests; however, for financial reasons, I have also been considering dentistry. I like how both fields -- podiatry and dentistry -- are "lifestyle oriented" jobs, but if being a podiatrist is really that much of an uphill battle (especially professionally/financially), I'm not so sure I should be one.

Don't get me wrong -- I realize that the "proper" attitude is to just "go for it" if you enjoy the work -- but we're talking 11 years and a TON of to spend.

Are there any websites that feature listings for wanted podiatry associates/partners?

Maybe I'm over-reacting, but, eh...I don't even know. :confused:
 
Is the non-compete clause commonly invoked in other fields of health care (such as dentistry or MD/DO medicine)? It seems awfully harsh and consequential to even sign on as an associate podiatrist, considering that, if things don't work out, the associate is forced to sell my home, uproot my family, and move to a new city.

I'm currently considering both dental and podiatry school (hell, maybe even medical school, too). I like podiatry-related subjects -- I run, bike, have sprained my ankle, got orthotics when I was 10, have diabetic relatives with podiatrist experiences, etc. I feel more like podiatry would be a career that reflects many of my hobbies and interests; however, for financial reasons, I have also been considering dentistry. I like how both fields -- podiatry and dentistry -- are "lifestyle oriented" jobs, but if being a podiatrist is really that much of an uphill battle (especially professionally/financially), I'm not so sure I should be one.

Don't get me wrong -- I realize that the "proper" attitude is to just "go for it" if you enjoy the work -- but we're talking 11 years and a TON of to spend.

Are there any websites that feature listings for wanted podiatry associates/partners?

Maybe I'm over-reacting, but, eh...I don't even know. :confused:

You have lots to consider, for certain. I do not know about dentistry but non-competes are common in MD/DO fields. In our local paper over the past few years there were two highly-publicized legal battles between the employed MD and the group they were leaving. You might want to post on the dental forum to find out about non-competes in their field.

Some practices no longer use a non-compete clause but instead have a provision in which a departing doctor has to pay a LARGE sum of money if they want to stay in the vicinity. In other words, feel free to stick around town but you have to pay us a lot of money to do so.

It does seem harsh because it is harsh. There is a lot of money at stake and in business people don't really coddle you. Others will do whatever they can to kick you out of their watering hole, so to speak.

I don't know if Podiatry is any more uphill than any other medical specialty. I'm guessing they all have their challenges at some point.

Nat

Edit: regarding job stability, it seems to me that medical careers are more stable than other professional careers. I see several business people (CEO's, CFO's) moving in and out of town every few years. I think that's just a part of their career. My father was an engineer (and a good one at that), and even he had to take jobs out of state fairly often. Many of his engineer colleagues did the same. I know some software guys and they are always waiting to be uprooted or unemployed.
 
There are a number of places where podiatric physicians post job openings. Once you are a student, you'll have access to many of these, but they include the APMA News, Podiatry Management magazine, and on the PM News mailing each day. Also, as a student, you will have ample time to network both in school and in the clinic and in those situations you will meet lots of DPMs who can offer you advice, referrals and even job options. Keep your eyes and ears open all the time and you will have no trouble finding a job in this field.
 
For those of you concerned about the lack of jobs, it's the same in all medical specialties. If you go to a place saturated with a ton of your respective specialty you're not going to do well even if you're the best trained guy around. This is true for dentists, MDs, DOs, and DPMs. If you really want to make a lot of cash, you need to sell, and market yourself so as to build the largest referal network in town. Then, you'll need to run a sound practice, be ethical and forthright with patients, and do excellent work. Your work should be done right the first time with few if any exceptions. This is true if you're a neurosurgeon, dermatologist, podiatrist or proctologist. Be a good businessman, and physician and you'll be successfull. Most importantly find a place where you can offer something unique to the community so you're the only guy, or one the few who can do what you do.
 
For those of you concerned about the lack of jobs, it's the same in all medical specialties. If you go to a place saturated with a ton of your respective specialty you're not going to do well even if you're the best trained guy around. This is true for dentists, MDs, DOs, and DPMs. If you really want to make a lot of cash, you need to sell, and market yourself so as to build the largest referal network in town. Then, you'll need to run a sound practice, be ethical and forthright with patients, and do excellent work. Your work should be done right the first time with few if any exceptions. This is true if you're a neurosurgeon, dermatologist, podiatrist or proctologist. Be a good businessman, and physician and you'll be successfull. Most importantly find a place where you can offer something unique to the community so you're the only guy, or one the few who can do what you do.


Well said, iceman!:thumbup:
 
OCPM has some kind of program setup to help 4th years find jobs

check out this site

http://www.ocpm.edu/news/article.asp?ID=177

Actually, the OCPM Great Exchange and Classifieds is meant for the OCPM alumni and NOT for the 4th years to find jobs. TUSPM also has a similar Great Exchange newletter that gets emailed to those alumni who signed up to receive it.
 
Aye caramba! -- check out some of these salaries offered to podiatrists to work in nursing homes:

http://www.staffpointe.com/search.asp, then, on the right-hand panel, type "podiatrist" in the blank under the word "Keywords." Here's an excerpt from one of the job postings:

"Employer will supply car with generous allowance. Rewarding personally and financially. See 20-25+ patients per day normally from 9am-3pm. $80 per patient seen 50% of the billing; at least $1,000 per day."

This sounds incredible! There's gotta be a catch, though; $1,000 ("at least") for 6 hours of work? Are nursing homes really that horrible to work in?

If this is a legitimate opportunity -- are these kinds of jobs common?
 
thats what i meant
hows a 4th year going to get a job? (I meant people after their 4th year - ie in/post residency)

regardless- it is a method of finding a job
 
Aye caramba! -- check out some of these salaries offered to podiatrists to work in nursing homes:

http://www.staffpointe.com/search.asp, then, on the right-hand panel, type "podiatrist" in the blank under the word "Keywords." Here's an excerpt from one of the job postings:

"Employer will supply car with generous allowance. Rewarding personally and financially. See 20-25+ patients per day normally from 9am-3pm. $80 per patient seen 50% of the billing; at least $1,000 per day."

This sounds incredible! There's gotta be a catch, though; $1,000 ("at least") for 6 hours of work? Are nursing homes really that horrible to work in?

If this is a legitimate opportunity -- are these kinds of jobs common?
A fair amount of younger pods (and other medical specialists such as IM) who I've talked to in the Florida area work nursing homes or assisted living condos at least a few times a month. You certainly can make a lot of cash since you round on many patients in a short timespan, but usually, each home only needs a pod to do rounds every week or two. It's not like you can work at the nursing home in your suberb 6 days per week. Therefore, unless you have a lot of different homes (read: tons of driving), you still need other things to round out your schedule.

Some pods don't like the patient population or consider it to be beneath their dignity to do C&C in a nursing home. Still, it's obviously a service the elderly people need and benefit from. I think that it's a sensible and good thing to do while you are starting/building a practice and don't have many of your own patients yet. One downside is that it won't generate much in the way of referrals or networking since the patients don't get out much or hang around forever...

___________

OCPM has some kind of program setup to help 4th years find jobs...

...I meant people after their 4th year - ie in/post residency...
Careful now. Don't get in a habit of lying and backpeddling, or you might end up a profilgate pod in a whiskers link someday. :D
 
its a slippery slope!
 
Aye caramba! -- check out some of these salaries offered to podiatrists to work in nursing homes:

http://www.staffpointe.com/search.asp, then, on the right-hand panel, type "podiatrist" in the blank under the word "Keywords." Here's an excerpt from one of the job postings:

"Employer will supply car with generous allowance. Rewarding personally and financially. See 20-25+ patients per day normally from 9am-3pm. $80 per patient seen 50% of the billing; at least $1,000 per day."

This sounds incredible! There's gotta be a catch, though; $1,000 ("at least") for 6 hours of work? Are nursing homes really that horrible to work in?

If this is a legitimate opportunity -- are these kinds of jobs common?

Henry (and the rest of you guys), I am not boasting but I will confess that I'm upset if I make "only" $1000 per day. I don't even have to resort to anything imprudent or profligate. Podiatry kicks a$$, in case any of you are having doubts.
 
Are you talking about gross or net earnings, Natch? If you're saying that it's normal for you to net $1,000 from a day's worth of practice...

Is it too late to enroll for the 2008-2009 year at School?! :eek:

Seriously, how do you do it? I don't want to be nosy, but the average (at least, according to salary.com) income for a podiatrist is roughly $150k/year. How do you run your practice to be able to make that much money? Do you specialize in a lucrative procedure that only you do (within your city)? If you don't mind sharing, I'd be interested to know...but I understand if you do.
 
Are you talking about gross or net earnings, Natch? If you're saying that it's normal for you to net $1,000 from a day's worth of practice...

Is it too late to enroll for the 2008-2009 year at School?! :eek:

Seriously, how do you do it? I don't want to be nosy, but the average (at least, according to salary.com) income for a podiatrist is roughly $150k/year. How do you run your practice to be able to make that much money? Do you specialize in a lucrative procedure that only you do (within your city)? If you don't mind sharing, I'd be interested to know...but I understand if you do.

That's after expenses, before taxes. It's not unheard of to make much more than that, and should be within reach of all of you. There's way too much in the way of practice management to cover on this forum, but it might be a start to pull up my previous posts as I've typed whatever I could think of when it comes up.

Just a quick, drastically simplistic run-through of the math: say you have two patients with ingrown nails in a day. That's between $350-$500 each depending on what you do and their insurance. Add a patient who gets orthotics. That's another $500 or so. With those three patients right there you collect somewhere around $1000 gross. If your expenses run 50% then figure around $500 net. That's with only three patients. Now treat an additional 20 patients that day...

Not all patient encounters bill as high, but I think I average $200 billed per patient.

You're right about having a niche. If you become known in the area for doing something well, then you get that business. I am told that my local reputation lies in ingrown nail treatment, bunion surgery, plantar wart treatment, and heel pain. All four of those things happen to be high-billing problems, and direct physician referrals account for around 75% of my practice. I also have unusually low overhead expenses.

Nat
 
Great discussion guys! :thumbup: makes me really glad I started this helpful thread :)
Thanks Natch for sharing your experience with us!
 
Are you talking about gross or net earnings, Natch? If you're saying that it's normal for you to net $1,000 from a day's worth of practice...

Is it too late to enroll for the 2008-2009 year at School?! :eek:

Seriously, how do you do it? I don't want to be nosy, but the average (at least, according to salary.com) income for a podiatrist is roughly $150k/year. How do you run your practice to be able to make that much money? Do you specialize in a lucrative procedure that only you do (within your city)? If you don't mind sharing, I'd be interested to know...but I understand if you do.

Also, Keep in mind that the numbers you get from salary.com are salaries(you are an employee). Owning a practice or part of a practice is usually more lucrative.
 
That's after expenses, before taxes. It's not unheard of to make much more than that, and should be within reach of all of you. There's way too much in the way of practice management to cover on this forum, but it might be a start to pull up my previous posts as I've typed whatever I could think of when it comes up.

Just a quick, drastically simplistic run-through of the math: say you have two patients with ingrown nails in a day. That's between $350-$500 each depending on what you do and their insurance. Add a patient who gets orthotics. That's another $500 or so. With those three patients right there you collect somewhere around $1000 gross. If your expenses run 50% then figure around $500 net. That's with only three patients. Now treat an additional 20 patients that day...

Not all patient encounters bill as high, but I think I average $200 billed per patient.

You're right about having a niche. If you become known in the area for doing something well, then you get that business. I am told that my local reputation lies in ingrown nail treatment, bunion surgery, plantar wart treatment, and heel pain. All four of those things happen to be high-billing problems, and direct physician referrals account for around 75% of my practice. I also have unusually low overhead expenses.

Nat

Thanks for sharing. Would you say that $200 is the average billing fee per patient for all podiatrists? I'm curious, because, let's say that you see 20 patients/day, and you bill each patient for $200. 20 x $200 each is $4,000; if you've tamed overhead and other expenses to 50% of your gross, then that's about $2,000 take-home for you each day. If you work five days a week (and don't take any vacations), that's $480,000 in one year.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Am I missing something here? This sounds totally awesome, but why is the average yearly income for a practice owner reported by the APMA to be $150,000? Do most pods not see nearly 20 patients on an average day (nor charge each of them $200)?

Eager for your insight. :)

*Note: I'm not trying to challenge your anecdote or stir-up any kind of trouble, so I hope my tone doesn't come off as skeptical -- I'm genuinely curious*
 
EEEEEEK! I just read that NETWORK54 thing and it bummed me out for a nanosecond.

But, it's nice to see the attendings and residents posting on here to counter the stuff that is written on that site.

I just want to live a comfortable life. I don't have to be pulling in 250K+ because I've found something that I really, splendidly enjoy. But the thought of 200K of loans is enough to jar me to the soul.

I really believe that your life and career is exactly what you make of it.

I do have a question though; about the competition clause.

Say I'm working in practice A and I get an offer with practice B, down the street. Does that still fall under the clause, or is the clause aimed at trying to stop NEW practices from becoming established?
 
Thanks for sharing. Would you say that $200 is the average billing fee per patient for all podiatrists? I'm curious, because, let's say that you see 20 patients/day, and you bill each patient for $200. 20 x $200 each is $4,000; if you've tamed overhead and other expenses to 50% of your gross, then that's about $2,000 take-home for you each day. If you work five days a week (and don't take any vacations), that's $480,000 in one year.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Am I missing something here? This sounds totally awesome, but why is the average yearly income for a practice owner reported by the APMA to be $150,000? Do most pods not see nearly 20 patients on an average day (nor charge each of them $200)?

Eager for your insight. :)

*Note: I'm not trying to challenge your anecdote or stir-up any kind of trouble, so I hope my tone doesn't come off as skeptical -- I'm genuinely curious*

I do not know what the average billing is for all podiatrists, but I have worked with some that did take home figures like you're calculating, and then some. To do so one has to work a lot and be pretty business savvy.

What you bill and what you actually take home are not even close. I expect to collect somewhere between 2/3 to 3/4 of what I billed, so $4K billed means around $2500-$3000 collected. After you've collected that money, then you have to pay for your overhead expenses. After you've done that, you pay yourself (and don't forget to pay 25%-30% to Uncle Sam).

Can someone dig up the APMA figures for average gross income? Wasn't it somewhere near that $500K mark?

Overhead expenses tend to be close to the same amount each month, so it's inaccurate to take the amount you collect each month and simply multiply by 50% (or whatever your average overhead is) to find out your net. It doesn't work that way. You have to pay your expenses first. If your monthly expenses run $15K and you only collected $15K, then your overhead that month was 100% and you made bupkus. If you collected $30K then your overhead was 50%. You look back at your books over time to be able to say, "My overhead is X percent."

To collect higher amounts one needs to see more patients. To see more patients, one needs to work more quickly. To work more quickly, one needs to have more support staff, more space, etc. More staff and more space costs more money. So to make huge amounts of money you typically have to spend huge amounts of money. As long as there are incoming patients, then the machine produces a lot. It's when the patient count (input) decreases that your income (output) decreases, yet you still have to pay all that staff, rent, utilities, etc.

The preceding paragraph describes how some large groups function. They have a lot of staff and square footage to pay for, so expenses are high. Patient flow tends to be greater than in a small group, so you can see more patients, bill more, collect more. Heaven forbid your production drops a little (e.g., vacation days) though, because suddenly your overhead calculates out to 75% or 80% for a given month and you worked your butt off for little net income. Some call big groups a treadmill, because as long as you keep running you're okay, but you can't let off production or you risk getting ejected.

I like to make an analogy to car engines (please forgive me). If you want a lot of horsepower (money), you typically need a big motor (big practice) and feed it a lot of fuel (patients). As long as the fuel is flowing, you get the power. It uses up that fuel pretty quickly though, so you'd better hope you have plenty of fuel (money) to put in the tank.

One of the most useful lessons a former Attending told me was, "It's not just how much you make, but how much you don't spend." In my opinion, to help support a good quality of life it's all about controlling your overhead.

Nat

p.s., Henry, there's an old thread somewhere that discusses salary as an employee and salary as a Partner. It might be worth finding. I recall saying that as a business owner, even if you collect an unusually large amount you don't necessarily have to increase your own salary (since you'd just have to increase your payroll taxes too). Sometimes paying yourself a higher salary just means you pay more money to The Man.

You have to pay yourself a "reasonable income" and after that can take money as dividends or figure out how to pay for stuff as a business expense. Taking seminar vacations is one common example of doing things as a business expense. You can also just leave the money in your business.

Northwest Podiatric Foundation's Kauai conference last October:

IMG_0014Small.jpg
 
Say I'm working in practice A and I get an offer with practice B, down the street. Does that still fall under the clause, or is the clause aimed at trying to stop NEW practices from becoming established?

The Covenant Not To Compete is aimed directly at you trying work anywhere near the first practice, be it at a new practice or at an established practice.
 
The Covenant Not To Compete is aimed directly at you trying work anywhere near the first practice, be it at a new practice or at an established practice.

Wow -- so if/when you decide to leave the practice you're with, you really have no choice but to move to another city if you want to be a podiatrist. I guess it makes sense to go somewhere you DON'T intend to "settle" when you graduate so that, when that fateful day comes, you'll be ready to relocate to and practice in your "true" destination.

What you bill and what you actually take home are not even close. I expect to collect somewhere between 2/3 to 3/4 of what I billed, so $4K billed means around $2500-$3000 collected. After you've collected that money, then you have to pay for your overhead expenses. After you've done that, you pay yourself (and don't forget to pay 25%-30% to Uncle Sam).

I'm slightly confused, here. I was under the impression that you collect what you bill; are you saying that you don't receive payment for some of treatments you bill? For example, if you bill $4k, howcome you only collect $2500-$3000? Is this what they call it when the insurance company "denies payment?"

Also, about the vacation thing -- do you ever get to really take vacations if not practicing for just a few days bogs down the engine (your car analogy)?

On a related note, how much would you say the typical podiatrist would collect on a general "check-up?" I ask because I actually went to a podiatrist yesterday to receive treatment for a sprained ankle, and after the appointment, my stupid as* threw the receipt in the trashcan on the way out. I do know that I paid a $25 co-pay, though. How much could typically be collected for an appointment like that?

One other thing -- I found this document on an enthusiastic podiatrist's website:

http://podiatrysurvivalpages.homestead.com/files/successful_podiatry_practice_management_codes.doc

Are these codes/treatments feasible to use on a day-to-day basis in practice? Moreover, are they legitimate to use in most cases?
 
Wow -- so if/when you decide to leave the practice you're with, you really have no choice but to move to another city if you want to be a podiatrist. I guess it makes sense to go somewhere you DON'T intend to "settle" when you graduate so that, when that fateful day comes, you'll be ready to relocate to and practice in your "true" destination.

That's a tricky one, because what if you do like the group you joined and they offer you a good Partnership deal? It'd be a bummer to not like the city, wouldn't it? Maybe you should look for a city that you wouldn't mind living in but wouldn't mind moving away from if you had to? I don't have the answer.


I'm slightly confused, here. I was under the impression that you collect what you bill; are you saying that you don't receive payment for some of treatments you bill? For example, if you bill $4k, howcome you only collect $2500-$3000? Is this what they call it when the insurance company "denies payment?"

That's correct, you bill what you think your work is worth and insurance pays you whatever the hell they want. Nice, huh?

Also, about the vacation thing -- do you ever get to really take vacations if not practicing for just a few days bogs down the engine (your car analogy)?

It depends on how high your expenses are. If it's not too high then there's much greater freedom to take time off without stress. I'm sure you get this concept already. If your rent, car payment, insurance, school loans, credit card payments, etc. were half as much as they are now, then how would life be different?

On a related note, how much would you say the typical podiatrist would collect on a general "check-up?" I ask because I actually went to a podiatrist yesterday to receive treatment for a sprained ankle, and after the appointment, my stupid as* threw the receipt in the trashcan on the way out. I do know that I paid a $25 co-pay, though. How much could typically be collected for an appointment like that?

Initial office visits pay more than established patient visits, and you bill based on time spent and complexity of the visit. If I saw you for the first time my office visit charge would likely be around $170. If you do x-rays or any procedures during the visit, you can bill for those too.

One other thing -- I found this document on an enthusiastic podiatrist's website:

http://podiatrysurvivalpages.homestead.com/files/successful_podiatry_practice_management_codes.doc

Are these codes/treatments feasible to use on a day-to-day basis in practice? Moreover, are they legitimate to use in most cases?

There's not much there. The implant arthroplasty is a surgery so you probably wouldn't use it daily. The chemical neurolysis code is common. Codes change from year-to-year and the allowed amounts vary with location, so I wouldn't bother saving the file to your hard drive.

You will obtain an ICD code book for common diagnostic codes (to tell the insurance company "what you found") and a CPT manual for common procedural codes (to tell them "what you did"). By the time you enter practice the codes will probably be all different so don't worry about that now. Just get through school first.

Nat
 
Sample contract page:

CCF02082008_00002.jpg
 
[Standing on soapbox]

Ok, so I'm seeing a trend on these posts and about how much podiatrists get paid and if it's enough.

I just want to say one thing, how much money do you want to have? Because if you're not happy with seeing the numbers out there then you're in the wrong profession. We're not going to be millionaires (unless you like to exploit the young podiatrists out there), but you WILL be comfortable.

I don't know about the rest of you (and sorry if I sound smug or arrogant), but I'm comfortable living with a salary of around $98K. I'm not looking to get rich and have the bling of a mansion or drive around in a Rolls.

If you do a good job and word gets out, pretty soon (one to two years after starting work), you will be making a decent salary and have a very successful practice. Remember it's all about hard work and treating the patient's well.

[OK back to our regularly scheduled programming]
 
sportPOD, I think the issue some of us have is with the vagueness of earnings reports. For example, one survey reports $150,000, while source may cite $200,000 -- and because many of these reports specify "salary," it's difficult to determine if they're reporting the salary of an associate podiatrist or a practice owner (although, the APMA's most recent survey does help).

More than anything, though, I think that many of us are alarmed and made wary by the various "horror stories" reported by associate podiatrists apparently earning only $50,000-$60,000, etc. If the APMA would release a survey revealing average associate podiatrist salaries, I think you would see fewer of these threads.

BTW -- is the $98k you mentioned the amount you expect to earn as an associate or as a practice owner?
 
I am a practice owner.

You will have discrepancies in salary reports, because it varies from geographic areas. Medicare sets the payment amounts every year for each specific procedure or visit code. Based on those amounts, the other insurances will pay their respective amounts. So, it's hard for the APMA to come up with ONE number for any podiatrist. This is true for any medical practictioner, since their payments vary with geographic areas.

My suggestion to you, HenryH, if you haven't already done so, is to find a podiatrist in your area and shadow him/her.
 
sportPOD, I'm going back to the podiatrist this week for a follow-up appointment, and I'm planning on talking to him about shadowing then.

Do you mind if I ask you how many days you work during the week, and how many hours each day?
 
sportPOD, I'm going back to the podiatrist this week for a follow-up appointment, and I'm planning on talking to him about shadowing then.

Do you mind if I ask you how many days you work during the week, and how many hours each day?

I work 5 days a week, averaging about 9 hours/day. The weeks that I'm on call for a hospital, I might average more in the 60 hour/week range.

P.S. The $98K that I mentioned earlier is how much I choose to take home, not how much I can take home after overhead and expenses. I put alot into retirement and college funds.
 
Is the APMA statistic that the median gross income of practice owners accurate? Is 400k for a pod practice owner/partner a lot, or is it average like the study indicates? I'm curious because the lifestyle, nature of the work, and the income seem almost too good to be true!
 
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