Jobs

[KeratinPearls]

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There are none. Just kidding.

I’ll be adding emails for jobs ive been getting to the Jobs thread above. Best of luck to all. Hopefully others can do the same.

 

[dr.weiner]

572 open jobs on pathoutlines right now. Just sayin'.

 

[deleted314957]

And ammo is more available and cheaper. Got to be some sociobehavorial correlation[emoji848]

 

[Drifter76]

572 open jobs on pathoutlines right now. Just sayin'.

And how many of those jobs are partnership track private practice positions with stable groups, in a place you’d actually want to live.. Versus low level academic positions or positions with corporate mills? 572 can fall to almost nothing pretty fast when you apply a few basic filters. Also, even if you find something that seems decent, and you are willing to make a long distance move to that place, how many of those groups are lying to you? They can state terms for partnership then move the goalposts or flat out fire you after 3 or 4 years, lose their major hospital contract because the situation is unstable and they hide it from you, etc.. for every one “good” job, there may be 10 or more people in a “bad” job wanting to move up to something decent. For the new people coming out, I bet there is less than 1 good job for every 10 people coming out of training in a given year.. and they’ll have to compete with experienced people in order to get one of those jobs. I’m close to a decade out of training, and have been through a lot of third rate garbage- corporate lab jobs, private jobs with no partnership track, practices where they lose their hospital contract right after you make a long distance move and start working there. Medical students should absolutely stay away from this crap.. do NOT go into this field. Stay away. There may be a rare charmed individual (with nepotism or just blind luck on their side) who can get through this minefield without getting a leg blown off, and they will tout the wonders of pathology while ignoring the carnage around them, but you should, under no circumstances, take this kind of risk with your future after you’ve invested so much. There are also plenty of people on the employer side, some of them MBA types and some older generation pathologists, who will be more than happy to take advantage of you, with some practices being run like Ponzi schemes to bilk their new people in order to prop up partner incomes in the face of declining reimbursements..

 

[Drifter76]

572 open jobs on pathoutlines right now. Just sayin'.

Also, I suspect that a lot of people fail to take down or close their posting once it is filled, so 572 is an overestimate for current open positions. It includes postings from 6 months ago that have probably been filled.

 

[octopusprime]

you should, under no circumstances, take this kind of risk with your future after you’ve invested so much. There are also plenty of people on the employer side, some of them MBA types and some older generation pathologists, who will be more than happy to take advantage of you, with some practices being run like Ponzi schemes to bilk their new people in order to prop up partner incomes in the face of declining reimbursements..

THIS is ultimately the truth and matters more than one's personal feelings about the field.
Medical school is an overwhelming financial investment and it's beyond foolish to take a chance in a field with so much disparity in outcome. Sure there are plenty of other fields with such disparity but the ability to move around and find a job to one's liking is infinitely more possible with IM/FP/Peds/Psyche/et al.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Once again, who cares about pathoutlines? The real jobs are word of mouth so make some friends ASAP. Pathoutlines is the okcupid for finding a job.

 

[dr.weiner]

There are excellent, partnership track, lucrative, non-exploitative jobs where you are treated fairly on pathoutlines right now. I know because I have been part of some of those groups who are currently posting. And I found my current great position on pathoutlines.

Pathoutlines does a good job removing inactive posts, and you have to pay to keep the job posted. So I'd say a small minority of jobs are filled that are on there.

Many of my colleagues are having trouble getting good applicants for their job posts right now. Relatively good time for people to start looking.

Try the veal. I'll see myself out.

 

[coroner]

There are excellent, partnership track, lucrative, non-exploitative jobs where you are treated fairly on pathoutlines right now. I know because I have been part of some of those groups who are currently posting. And I found my current great position on pathoutlines.

How did changing from multiple jobs affect your prospects with each successive place you went to? I ask because jumping from job-to-job can be a red flag on your CV. Unless a place already knows you or is desperate (which is usually not the case, statistically speaking), they will give you the benefit of the doubt from switching multiple jobs. But most pathology practices get a ton of CV's so, they can be selective and even the slightest aberrancy that raises an eyebrow will cause them to toss your CV in the recycling bin.

 

[dr.weiner]

How did changing from multiple jobs affect your prospects with each successive place you went to? I ask because jumping from job-to-job can be a red flag on your CV. Unless a place already knows you or is desperate (which is usually not the case, statistically speaking), they will give you the benefit of the doubt from switching multiple jobs. But most pathology practices get a ton of CV's so, they can be selective and even the slightest aberrancy that raises an eyebrow will cause them to toss your CV in the recycling bin.

I don't jump around too much and am quite selective with valid reasons or have been actively recruited. I don't plan on leaving my current position anytime soon.

 

[coroner]

Once again, who cares about pathoutlines? The real jobs are word of mouth so make some friends ASAP. Pathoutlines is the okcupid for finding a job.

Who cares are the fellows entering the job market who have zero contacts and whose faculty and program directors can't or don't help them land a job. Of course it's always a good idea to stay in touch with contacts/friends in the field who can help you down the road and I do advocate that strategy. And, given the job market, I think it favors any jobseeker to use all resources disposable. But, when you're graduating in 6 months and don't know where your paycheck will be coming in beyond that point, waiting for a friend to come along is not a good strategy.

Your premise is that jobs via contacts and friends = "real jobs"/good; pathoutlines = "okcupid"/dregs. Have you ever gotten a job from pathoutlines? Not what your colleagues told you or what you read on here. I mean actually sent out CV's to jobs on pathoutlines, interviewed for, accepted an offer and worked at? My guess is no, so how would you know they are like "okcupid"? If you haven't had to go through that, because your former/current job(s) have been great, that's fine. More power to you; but, it's a limited point of comparison offering a one-sided experience.

I have gotten interviews, offers, and worked at jobs from both pathoutlines and contacts. Yes, there are bad jobs on pathoutlines, but there are good ones too as dr. weiner mentioned. I personally know colleagues who've accepted good jobs on there as well and are still there 5+ years later and don't plan on leaving. On the flip side, I have also been offered jobs via contacts that were unadvertised. After learning more details about some of these word-of-mouth "hidden gems", a few (not all) turned out to be only marginally better or even worse than jobs I was offered from pathoutlines. My point is, it's not quite as black-and-white as you make it out to be; and like most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[deleted314957]

Ya know, if I was a very bright undergrad looking at the direction things are going AND where they have come from medicine has been on a downslope at way greater than 90 degrees. This is happening throughout medicine, faster in some specialties than others.
Debt service has become very tough. Going forward, I see all but a small fraction of physicians making an upper middle class income( think engineer, successful insurance agent, accountant etc.)

Family practitioners and internists who go 100% concierge and remove themselves completely from hospitals and insurance can thrive. This CAN be done by some other specialties but not many. Try being a concierge colorectal surgeon.

 

[Drifter76]

There are excellent, partnership track, lucrative, non-exploitative jobs where you are treated fairly on pathoutlines right now. I know because I have been part of some of those groups who are currently posting. And I found my current great position on pathoutlines.

Really? Maybe you’d care to name them. I’ll send them my CV tomorrow if that is the case. Also, if the groups you speak of are so great, why did you leave? There’s no way in hell I would voluntarily leave if I ever found a “good” job. I’ve been looking for one for about 10 years now.
Looking over the more recent postings on path outlines, I see a bunch of non-tenure track low level academic jobs on there. The tenured full professors and chairmen expect their new people to work with no tenure track, and I’m sure most of them weren’t treated like that when they came out. They might as well ask their new people to empty their wastebaskets and mop their floors for them, while they are at it.
If people with years of experience are still struggling to find anything decent, how is it that people coming straight out could expect to find something decent? There may be a very rare decent job on there- I never said that decent jobs don’t exist, I just said there were far, far too few of them relative to the number of pathologists coming out. If there were good jobs available in any significant numbers, and the job market was actually reasonable, all these people offering low quality jobs wouldn’t be able to fill those positions and they’d have to start offering something that is actually reasonable. Supply- demand would prevent them from successfully recruiting and retaining people.

 

[Drifter76]

Pathoutlines does a good job removing inactive posts, and you have to pay to keep the job posted. So I'd say a small minority of jobs are filled that are on there.

That’s not exactly what the instructions on the website say. The instructions say that employers pay $975 and the post stays up for 6 months or “until filled”. Presumably a poster would have to let them know to take the posting down before the 6 months is up, and I don’t know that many would since there’s no financial benefit- it is $975 whether the job fills in 2 days or 180 days.

 

[Drifter76]

Many of my colleagues are having trouble getting good applicants for their job posts right now. Relatively good time for people to start looking.

Either they are living on a different planet from me or there are some major issues with the jobs they are offering, if they are truly having trouble getting decent applicants.
I graduated cum laude, top 10% of my class from a top tier allopathic U.S. medical school, 250+ USMLE scores, Howard Hughes fellow at NIH with numerous publications, excellent training and trained under a nationally recognized expert in my subspecialty area, boarded in AP/CP plus my subspecialty, and now with close to a decade of post-training experience, experienced and proficient in broad hospital based AP/CP as well as my subspecialty area.
What have I been able to find, after all that? A third rate job at a corporate mill, followed by a third rate private practice job with no partnership track, followed by a third rate private practice job in a region of the country where I don’t particularly care to live, where I was led to believe it was a stable group but they then lost their main hospital contract 3 months after my long distance move to start working there, followed by my current position. I have been lied to multiple times by practices regarding partnership tracks and stability of contracts. It has been a significant burden on my family to have to go through so many long distance moves. I have now had a solid decade of looking for a decent job. Several of my classmates from medical school who I’ve kept up with over the years (who actually had less impressive resumes than I did but chose better, more competitive fields like urology, orthopedics, and radiology) actually got stable partnership track jobs straight out of training and are still in their first jobs. My experience has obviously been quite different from theirs. My choice to go into pathology has been absolutely devastating for my career- financially costly, professionally insulting, and a major liability regarding my family and personal life.

 

[coroner]

I graduated cum laude, top 10% of my class from a top tier allopathic U.S. medical school, 250+ USMLE scores, Howard Hughes fellow at NIH with numerous publications, excellent training and trained under a nationally recognized expert in my subspecialty area, boarded in AP/CP plus my subspecialty, and now with close to a decade of post-training experience, experienced and proficient in broad hospital based AP/CP as well as my subspecialty area.

With those type of credentials, you appear to be a "good candidate". The mantra on here is "good candidates, get good jobs". However, your experience, while not entirely unheard of seems like you've hit just about every stumbling block your career track that you possibly could have. Sometimes, you just have to be lucky. It shouldn't have to be that way when one enters medical school and accomplishes their goals, but it is...

How have your pathology residency colleagues fared? You mentioned you keep in touch with some classmates from med school. Have you kept in touch with any co-residents/fellows also? If you went to a good program and heard from them directly, or through the grapevine, I'm sure not all of them are as miserable as you, and someone must have landed a good job...?

 

[caffeinegirl]

Drifter's experience is similar to mine, and several of my cofellows/coresidents have had the same issues in private practice. Those in academics have been stable. I would definitely heed his advice, as his experience is not a one-off.

 

[KeratinPearls]

I apologize for making a thread based on Jobs lmao.

 

[coroner]

I apologize for making a thread based on Jobs lmao.

Ohhh no you don't, you knew this was coming and love the drama that comes with our favorite topic....

 

[KeratinPearls]

There are excellent, partnership track, lucrative, non-exploitative jobs where you are treated fairly on pathoutlines right now. I know because I have been part of some of those groups who are currently posting. And I found my current great position on pathoutlines.

Pathoutlines does a good job removing inactive posts, and you have to pay to keep the job posted. So I'd say a small minority of jobs are filled that are on there.

Many of my colleagues are having trouble getting good applicants for their job posts right now. Relatively good time for people to start looking.

Try the veal. I'll see myself out.

I’ve heard that several times on here that employers are having a hard time finding good candidates. Why is that?

Bad training? Bad candidates to begin with? All consequences of too many training programs?

Partnership jobs are lucrative but the ones I’ve come across were at least 4-5 years until partner. From my understanding this is a little long compared to other fields. Am I correct?

 

[solitarius]

The people who like and choose Pathology are the type of people who don't want to deal with patients, don't want to deal the pressures of surgery, don't want to read X number of images per hour, etc. Relative to the other specialties, it sure seems pretty low-stress, and hence, desirable.

Sadly, the type of people who choose Pathology could have done themselves a big favor by becoming a computer programmer.

 

[coroner]

I’ve heard that several times on here that employers are having a hard time finding good candidates. Why is that?

Bad training? Bad candidates to begin with? All consequences of too many training programs?

I think part of it is perception by employers. They have a bevy of applicants, so they can afford to screen selectively, so anything that seems "off" about a CV is judged as another bad applicant. And, many (not all) of the so-called "good" candidates either get jobs through contacts or land a good job on their 1st or 2nd round of applying post-fellowship, so they are out from the application pool which then mainly consists of the supposedly "bad" applicants firing out/recycling their CVs. Yes, this is a consequence of too many training programs. Limiting the supply would decrease the overall number of job applicants after graduating, because residency programs would then be choosing the most qualified 250 PGY-1's/yr instead of the best ~550 PGY-1's/yr.

Partnership jobs are lucrative but the ones I’ve come across were at least 4-5 years until partner. From my understanding this is a little long compared to other fields. Am I correct?

Correct. I have been on several private practice interviews and partnership track as a new or recent graduate ranged from 3-5 yrs., average being 3, and 5 was on the highest end. If one has experience, some practices will reduce it to 0-2 yrs., but others won't, ymmv.

I have friends in other specialties gas, rads, IM/FM, etc. and have asked them about partnership track. In no other field have I ever heard of 5 years to partnership...none. And, I'm not referring to sweat equity as a buy-in. The other specialties friends/colleagues told me that their partnership tracks were 1-3 yrs., with 3 being considered very long/highest end.

 

[deleted314957]

I don’t know about now, but it does not seemed to change much. Just the money. In the beginning 90’s I went from $160 as a fourth year associate to a $750/yr. equity partner. I had a buy in of $160.

 

[KeratinPearls]

I think part of it is perception by employers. They have a bevy of applicants, so they can afford to screen selectively, so anything that seems "off" about a CV is judged as another bad applicant. And, many (not all) of the so-called "good" candidates either get jobs through contacts or land a good job on their 1st or 2nd round of applying post-fellowship, so they are out from the application pool which then mainly consists of the supposedly "bad" applicants firing out/recycling their CVs. Yes, this is a consequence of too many training programs. Limiting the supply would decrease the overall number of job applicants after graduating, because residency programs would then be choosing the most qualified 250 PGY-1's/yr instead of the best ~550 PGY-1's/yr.


Correct. I have been on several private practice interviews and partnership track as a new or recent graduate ranged from 3-5 yrs., average being 3, and 5 was on the highest end. If one has experience, some practices will reduce it to 0-2 yrs., but others won't, ymmv.

I have friends in other specialties gas, rads, IM/FM, etc. and have asked them about partnership track. In no other field have I ever heard of 5 years to partnership...none. And, I'm not referring to sweat equity as a buy-in. The other specialties friends/colleagues told me that their partnership tracks were 1-3 yrs., with 3 being considered very long/highest end.

Yes now I realize groups can make partnership tracks 5 years because they know they can while they reap money off of junior pathologists. One group I talked to was 5 years in a not so desirable location either!

 

[caffeinegirl]

*red flags*
- 5 years to partner, most junior partners don't make it (look at the distribution of partners vs non partners)
- Full partners have twice the amount of vacation than junior partners
- Full partners have less than twice the amount of call than junior partners
- Full partners have priority for taking holidays off
- Full partners have priority for making call schedule requests
- Junior partners are required to participate in capital/property downpayments and loans for the practice

...just a few...

 

[shikimate]

In Canada, there is mismanagement of supply. They got rid of most APCP programs because the academic APs don't seem to think very highly of community based generalists, and now graduates vast numbers of AP residents who knows nothing about hematology.

Then they tell those residents unless they do a fellowship they won't get a job. They tell them to do a fellowship in whatever they're interested in, then you end up having people who did bone/soft tissue but can't job and have to do 2nd fellowship, or people who did gyne fellowship but need to do a second breast fellowship to get the actual job they want.

Meanwhile community hospitals are scratching their heads wondering why nobody ever send their CVs for the job posting. In my opinion the programs should aim for 80% APCP and 20% AP only.

 

[Drifter76]

With those type of credentials, you appear to be a "good candidate". The mantra on here is "good candidates, get good jobs". However, your experience, while not entirely unheard of seems like you've hit just about every stumbling block your career track that you possibly could have. Sometimes, you just have to be lucky. It shouldn't have to be that way when one enters medical school and accomplishes their goals, but it is...

How have your pathology residency colleagues fared? You mentioned you keep in touch with some classmates from med school. Have you kept in touch with any co-residents/fellows also? If you went to a good program and heard from them directly, or through the grapevine, I'm sure not all of them are as miserable as you, and someone must have landed a good job...?

I have kept in touch with a few, and overall they haven’t fared all that well. One guy was from Texas, wanted to go back there, but ended up in a small town on the east coast. He also wanted to get a job after his first fellowship but couldn’t find anything so he had to sign up for another year of training. Another guy wanted to come back to the southeast but ended up with a practice in Kansas. He also needed a lot more time to find something- ended up doing a total of 3 years of fellowship instead of the one year he’d planned to do. There were a couple of people in my program who did forensics, and they didn’t seem to have nearly as much trouble as everyone else.
One other guy was a very good resident- arguably the best in our program- but had a lot of problems finding anything. He did all of his education and training in the southeast and wanted to stay in the area, but couldn’t find anything.. ended up doing 2 fellowships then taking some instructor level/academic job for a year then got a job at a VA hospital in a southwestern state where he had no ties or connections. He ended up committing suicide after a couple years there. I don’t know all of the details and don’t really know if the sort of dead end career path was a primary factor but I’m sure it didn’t help.
I can think of two people in particular who I know who are close to my age who got good jobs straight out. One is, I’d say, of average ability and one is definitely below average. Both benefited heavily from nepotism. One of them is the son of a department chair who is very well connected in his home state, and he got a partnership track job with a well respected private group straight out. Another is the son of a senior partner with a well established group and he made partner with that group, I believe 3 years after joining it, and is now in a leadership position with that group.
I can say with 100% confidence that the “good candidates get good jobs” mantra is absolutely false. Maybe it was true at one time but not anymore- not in our field. And in terms of luck, what has happened to me and others I know is not just bad luck- it is a combination of a highly dysfunctional job market and malicious behavior by bad actors who are allowed to get away with what they do, due to the fact that we are all so easily replaceable. If you go to the casino and roll the dice once and land on a 2, it might just be bad luck, but if you roll them over and over and they keep landing on 2 then it means they are weighted/rigged, and it is the same way with life events.
It is also very common for people to have to relocate- not just to a different city in their state or to a neighboring state- but to an entirely different region of the country from where they trained or are from or want to live. That is something that you don’t see as much in other specialties and is another major negative factor for people going into pathology.
And again, some of this is generational. Most of the people I know who came out of training at least 10 years before I did seemed to do a lot better. I think there was some opportunity in the field then- wasn’t just a wasteland like it is now.

 

[Drifter76]

I think part of it is perception by employers. They have a bevy of applicants, so they can afford to screen selectively, so anything that seems "off" about a CV is judged as another bad applicant. And, many (not all) of the so-called "good" candidates either get jobs through contacts or land a good job on their 1st or 2nd round of applying post-fellowship, so they are out from the application pool which then mainly consists of the supposedly "bad" applicants firing out/recycling their CVs. Yes, this is a consequence of too many training programs. Limiting the supply would decrease the overall number of job applicants after graduating, because residency programs would then be choosing the most qualified 250 PGY-1's/yr instead of the best ~550 PGY-1's/yr.


Correct. I have been on several private practice interviews and partnership track as a new or recent graduate ranged from 3-5 yrs., average being 3, and 5 was on the highest end. If one has experience, some practices will reduce it to 0-2 yrs., but others won't, ymmv.

I have friends in other specialties gas, rads, IM/FM, etc. and have asked them about partnership track. In no other field have I ever heard of 5 years to partnership...none. And, I'm not referring to sweat equity as a buy-in. The other specialties friends/colleagues told me that their partnership tracks were 1-3 yrs., with 3 being considered very long/highest end.

Another factor is, even though the market is heavily rigged in favor of the employer over employee (supply >>> demand), it still might be possible for an employer to overplay their hand. Many of them know they have all the leverage and can offer a really sh*tty deal and say “take it or leave it”. But they can possibly offer something that is so horrendous that at least some of the decent applicants might walk away. I know one large private group that is pretty blatant about having a two tiered system with haves and have nots, and they offer new people a very low salary with no partnership track and I think 4 weeks of vacation (versus about 10 for partners). After 5 years there, you are still well under 300k total compensation with no equity or anything else. The workload is split evenly (at best) but the money never will be, and you will be working pretty hard pushing a lot of glass to subsidize the partners’ 500k+ salaries, vacation, 20k CME fund, etc. They still expect to get US grads from good programs (like they did back in the day) even though what they are offering now is absolute crap. If they have the slightest trouble recruiting someone for a position or have someone walk away, they think the market just isn’t good enough for them.

 

[Drifter76]

Yes now I realize groups can make partnership tracks 5 years because they know they can while they reap money off of junior pathologists. One group I talked to was 5 years in a not so desirable location either!

I’ve seen much worse. I know one group that has a 9 year track. After 5 years you get 1/5 of a share, and you get an additional 1/5 of a share each additional year. It takes 9 years before you are a full shareholder (assuming they don’t renege, which is a pretty bold assumption).
And then, even worse than that, there are the groups that just tell you up front that there is “no partnership track” but then want to give you such a low salary that it is as if you are paying a massive 6 or 7 figure buy in without ever getting anything in return. They figure they have so much leverage over you that they don’t even have to lie to you- they can just tell you up front that they are going to screw you and you will take it anyway just to stay out of the unemployment line.

 

[AZpath]

We talk a lot about private practice and partnership here.
How much of this is impacted by the general trend of employed physicians verses private practice?
The last information I have has is that PP is down to about 25% for all physicians.

I don't see that much change in pathology so far. That is PP groups are mostly stable in AZ.
That might not be true elsewhere.
There has been acceleration of venture capital buying the big bucks specialties such as Urology.
Hospital physician employment continues to grow and smaller private practices continue to disappear.

Physician ownership of a pathology practice might be a fairly uncommon in 10-20 years.

 

[futuredoc331]

Every time I convince myself to stick it out I end up coming back to these threads and getting scared off again.

Is there any benefit to finishing a CP program (1 more year) before switching to another specialty other than having a fall back plan if the subsequent residency doesn't work out?

I keep hearing that the transfusion job market is "okay". Is it significantly more "okay" than the descriptions above?

 

[KeratinPearls]

I’ve seen much worse. I know one group that has a 9 year track. After 5 years you get 1/5 of a share, and you get an additional 1/5 of a share each additional year. It takes 9 years before you are a full shareholder (assuming they don’t renege, which is a pretty bold assumption).
And then, even worse than that, there are the groups that just tell you up front that there is “no partnership track” but then want to give you such a low salary that it is as if you are paying a massive 6 or 7 figure buy in without ever getting anything in return. They figure they have so much leverage over you that they don’t even have to lie to you- they can just tell you up front that they are going to screw you and you will take it anyway just to stay out of the unemployment line.

Every time I convince myself to stick it out I end up coming back to these threads and getting scared off again.

Is there any benefit to finishing a CP program (1 more year) before switching to another specialty other than having a fall back plan if the subsequent residency doesn't work out?

I keep hearing that the transfusion job market is "okay". Is it significantly more "okay" than the descriptions above?

Really you are going to switch to another specialty because of what you read on here? You will get a job somewhere for transfusion. Wherever that is depends on availability or luck.

 

[mario2010]

Some of the material on this forum really made me think is there any alternate universe of pathology that me, my colleagues and pathology friends don't know about. This is what I know, its up to any one who is reading to believe it or not.

a) As of today there are 570 open jobs on pathoutlines alone. Probably 6-7 were posted just today. There are likely 550-600 path grads coming out every year. Not all of them want to do PP. A lot of path jobs never get posted on pathoutlines or advertised at all.

b) I personally know around 50-60 pathologists in last 13-14 years. Through residency, fellowships and professional societies. Almost all of them seem content with their positions.

c) Here is the starting salaries and mid career salaries of some of them.
Gen surg path, NE starting 310 K. 6 years out 385K
Gen surg path +Heme PP partnership tract MW - 3 years to partner. Made partner. Currently making $700K plus
Dermpath only NE. Started at $400K 6 years ago. Not sure what she is making right now
Surg path + cyto, hospital employed in mid atlantic. starting 380K, this was BTW this year
Dermpath only switched job last year after 7 years. Starting base $450 K plus bonus
Molecular in industry starting base $300K plus stock options
Academic dermpath starting in MW. low volume. $350K
Academic TMBB NE starting $225K 60/40 clinical plus research
Gen surg + cyto 3 year partnership tract pacific northwest. Not sure of starting salary. Made partner. Currently making around $500K

d) Every single resident at my residency and fellowship program received multiple job offers. Its a mid tier program for what it is worth. At least 2 of them with serious red flags (substance abuse, major personality issues etc.) also got multiple offers.

Any medical student/resident contemplating job market etc. Should really do their own research and talk to practicing pathologists both community and in PP and then make their own decisions rather then getting dissuaded by reading anonymous internet forums. Also, keep in mind the alternatives and talk to physicians in other specialties and look at their work hours, level of stress and money they make. The reality is the average salary for in patient IM is around $250K, ID and endo below or low 200's. PCM, around $300-350. Gen Cards $400-450K. GI $450-500. Gen derm $375-450. These are the fields with comparable levels of training. Apart from derm, their works hours are much worse than path. Pathology job market will likely never be like primary care, derm, ENT etc. Its not ideal and if its up to me I will certainly close down at least 30% of programs and reduce slots by at least 30-40%. If that happens we will become like derm or ENT in few years. When I am teaching medical students, I tell them the truth, I tell them that If you are geographically restricted and have huge student loans don't do pathology and chose one of the procedural specialties or IM with subspecialty. If they are not geographically restricted , I encourage them to pursue pathology if they like the field and have aptitude for it. The sole purpose of me writing this message is I absolutely love pathology and I feel as practicing pathologists we owe it to our specialty to get the honest word out and attract the best and brightest to our field. Adios !

 

[futuredoc331]

Really you are going to switch to another specialty because of what you read on here? You will get a job somewhere for transfusion. Wherever that is depends on availability or luck.

Of course I wouldn't make a decision solely based on what I read on an anonymous forum. That said, what I've read here lines up with what I'm seeing offline. A job "somewhere" just doesn't sit right with me. Our newest attending has moved around every 2 years from what I can gather. Another almost had to do a second transfusion fellowship before he got a job halfway across the country. Yet another had to take an assistant instructor position while they waited and hoped for a local position to open.

This stuff didn't sink in when I was a med student. Now I'm concerned I'm going to have to uproot my kids, piss off my wife, and live somewhere I hate just to have a job. A job that I'll always be afraid of losing because if I did it would mean another move.

I'm sure there are some young single folks who are more adventurous and don't mind being in that predicament. I've found out that I'm not that guy. A little too late, unfortunately.

 

[deleted314957]

Don’t feel too bad folks any newbie is about 30-40 years too late in ANY specialty.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Some of the material on this forum really made me think is there any alternate universe of pathology that me, my colleagues and pathology friends don't know about. This is what I know, its up to any one who is reading to believe it or not.

a) As of today there are 570 open jobs on pathoutlines alone. Probably 6-7 were posted just today. There are likely 550-600 path grads coming out every year. Not all of them want to do PP. A lot of path jobs never get posted on pathoutlines or advertised at all.

b) I personally know around 50-60 pathologists in last 13-14 years. Through residency, fellowships and professional societies. Almost all of them seem content with their positions.

c) Here is the starting salaries and mid career salaries of some of them.
Gen surg path, NE starting 310 K. 6 years out 385K
Gen surg path +Heme PP partnership tract MW - 3 years to partner. Made partner. Currently making $700K plus
Dermpath only NE. Started at $400K 6 years ago. Not sure what she is making right now
Surg path + cyto, hospital employed in mid atlantic. starting 380K, this was BTW this year
Dermpath only switched job last year after 7 years. Starting base $450 K plus bonus
Molecular in industry starting base $300K plus stock options
Academic dermpath starting in MW. low volume. $350K
Academic TMBB NE starting $225K 60/40 clinical plus research
Gen surg + cyto 3 year partnership tract pacific northwest. Not sure of starting salary. Made partner. Currently making around $500K

d) Every single resident at my residency and fellowship program received multiple job offers. Its a mid tier program for what it is worth. At least 2 of them with serious red flags (substance abuse, major personality issues etc.) also got multiple offers.

Any medical student/resident contemplating job market etc. Should really do their own research and talk to practicing pathologists both community and in PP and then make their own decisions rather then getting dissuaded by reading anonymous internet forums. Also, keep in mind the alternatives and talk to physicians in other specialties and look at their work hours, level of stress and money they make. The reality is the average salary for in patient IM is around $250K, ID and endo below or low 200's. PCM, around $300-350. Gen Cards $400-450K. GI $450-500. Gen derm $375-450. These are the fields with comparable levels of training. Apart from derm, their works hours are much worse than path. Pathology job market will likely never be like primary care, derm, ENT etc. Its not ideal and if its up to me I will certainly close down at least 30% of programs and reduce slots by at least 30-40%. If that happens we will become like derm or ENT in few years. When I am teaching medical students, I tell them the truth, I tell them that If you are geographically restricted and have huge student loans don't do pathology and chose one of the procedural specialties or IM with subspecialty. If they are not geographically restricted , I encourage them to pursue pathology if they like the field and have aptitude for it. The sole purpose of me writing this message is I absolutely love pathology and I feel as practicing pathologists we owe it to our specialty to get the honest word out and attract the best and brightest to our field. Adios !

Why close 30 percent of programs if you don't know anyone having issues finding jobs and they are content? The best and brightest want to know.

 

[KeratinPearls]

Of course I wouldn't make a decision solely based on what I read on an anonymous forum. That said, what I've read here lines up with what I'm seeing offline. A job "somewhere" just doesn't sit right with me. Our newest attending has moved around every 2 years from what I can gather. Another almost had to do a second transfusion fellowship before he got a job halfway across the country. Yet another had to take an assistant instructor position while they waited and hoped for a local position to open.

This stuff didn't sink in when I was a med student. Now I'm concerned I'm going to have to uproot my kids, piss off my wife, and live somewhere I hate just to have a job. A job that I'll always be afraid of losing because if I did it would mean another move.

I'm sure there are some young single folks who are more adventurous and don't mind being in that predicament. I've found out that I'm not that guy. A little too late, unfortunately.

My bad. Didn’t know transfusion job market was that bad since I don’t know many who did a fellowship in it. Yeah that sucks.

 

[Med Director New England]

Some of the material on this forum really made me think is there any alternate universe of pathology that me, my colleagues and pathology friends don't know about. This is what I know, its up to any one who is reading to believe it or not.

a) As of today there are 570 open jobs on pathoutlines alone. Probably 6-7 were posted just today. There are likely 550-600 path grads coming out every year. Not all of them want to do PP. A lot of path jobs never get posted on pathoutlines or advertised at all.

b) I personally know around 50-60 pathologists in last 13-14 years. Through residency, fellowships and professional societies. Almost all of them seem content with their positions.

c) Here is the starting salaries and mid career salaries of some of them.
Gen surg path, NE starting 310 K. 6 years out 385K
Gen surg path +Heme PP partnership tract MW - 3 years to partner. Made partner. Currently making $700K plus
Dermpath only NE. Started at $400K 6 years ago. Not sure what she is making right now
Surg path + cyto, hospital employed in mid atlantic. starting 380K, this was BTW this year
Dermpath only switched job last year after 7 years. Starting base $450 K plus bonus
Molecular in industry starting base $300K plus stock options
Academic dermpath starting in MW. low volume. $350K
Academic TMBB NE starting $225K 60/40 clinical plus research
Gen surg + cyto 3 year partnership tract pacific northwest. Not sure of starting salary. Made partner. Currently making around $500K

d) Every single resident at my residency and fellowship program received multiple job offers. Its a mid tier program for what it is worth. At least 2 of them with serious red flags (substance abuse, major personality issues etc.) also got multiple offers.

Any medical student/resident contemplating job market etc. Should really do their own research and talk to practicing pathologists both community and in PP and then make their own decisions rather then getting dissuaded by reading anonymous internet forums. Also, keep in mind the alternatives and talk to physicians in other specialties and look at their work hours, level of stress and money they make. The reality is the average salary for in patient IM is around $250K, ID and endo below or low 200's. PCM, around $300-350. Gen Cards $400-450K. GI $450-500. Gen derm $375-450. These are the fields with comparable levels of training. Apart from derm, their works hours are much worse than path. Pathology job market will likely never be like primary care, derm, ENT etc. Its not ideal and if its up to me I will certainly close down at least 30% of programs and reduce slots by at least 30-40%. If that happens we will become like derm or ENT in few years. When I am teaching medical students, I tell them the truth, I tell them that If you are geographically restricted and have huge student loans don't do pathology and chose one of the procedural specialties or IM with subspecialty. If they are not geographically restricted , I encourage them to pursue pathology if they like the field and have aptitude for it. The sole purpose of me writing this message is I absolutely love pathology and I feel as practicing pathologists we owe it to our specialty to get the honest word out and attract the best and brightest to our field. Adios !

No one in NE ( I assume NE = New England) is paying a new grad 310 for general sp.

 

[Guest8]

No one in NE ( I assume NE = New England) is paying a new grad 310 for general sp.

Yeah I don't buy that either. We're a New England private group that pays very well w/ only partnership track jobs , and we don't start new grads anywhere near $310K. Our management company gives us numbers of comparable groups when we're in the hiring process, and I haven't seen any number that high for new grads.

 

[ElementMD]

I don’t know about now, but it does not seemed to change much. Just the money. In the beginning 90’s I went from $160 as a fourth year associate to a $750/yr. equity partner. I had a buy in of $160.

$750 a year! That sounds very nice. Is that typical for a partnership track type job? Would this require a certain pedigree of residency or fellowship. I am a resident at a mid-tier program in NYC and my fellowship will be similar.

 

[deleted314957]

$750 a year! That sounds very nice. Is that typical for a partnership track type job? Would this require a certain pedigree of residency or fellowship. I am a resident at a mid-tier program in NYC and my fellowship will be similar.

This was back in the late 80’s and early 90’s when $750/ yr = 1M today.
Those days are long, long gone. That is not typical for virtually ANYTHING today. Maybe high end plastics or spine in a location without much competition. You are looking at a couple hundred thousand bucks.

 

[ElementMD]

Thanks for the feedback Mike. I didn't think that $750K was a realistic figure in today's market. But woulda been nice. 😁

At the same time $200K is about right at the lowest end of the spectrum. I know my institution pays new grads a little over $200K but we are at the low end and it is a very coosh job. Easy hours, low case-load, easy calls. Also you can work part time on top.

But we are at the very low end. I know because I have been actively looking. At the higher end I have seen $375 starting in Mid west and $350 in New Hampshire.

I am not sure about partnership tracks or where salary can go after 5-10 years of practice. I have no clue. I only know what recruiters and employers have told me directly. This would be nice to know.

 

[Napoleon1801]

Every time I convince myself to stick it out I end up coming back to these threads and getting scared off again.

Is there any benefit to finishing a CP program (1 more year) before switching to another specialty other than having a fall back plan if the subsequent residency doesn't work out?

I keep hearing that the transfusion job market is "okay". Is it significantly more "okay" than the descriptions above?

PM me. I can comment a bit on this. There are some opportunities out there, but it really depends on the practice setting you're looking for, geographic restrictions, and how long you're willing to wait for a job offer.

 

[KeratinPearls]

This was back in the late 80’s and early 90’s when $750/ yr = 1M today.
Those days are long, long gone. That is not typical for virtually ANYTHING today. Maybe high end plastics or spine in a location without much competition. You are looking at a couple hundred thousand bucks.

Unless your name is LA Doc00 lmao.

 

[Mace1370]

Don’t feel too bad folks any newbie is about 30-40 years too late in ANY specialty.

My father is a retired physician. Seeing his compensation package and career trajectory vs what everyone I know is experiencing is like night and day.

 

[coroner]

No one in NE ( I assume NE = New England) is paying a new grad 310 for general sp.

Yeah I don't buy that either. We're a New England private group that pays very well w/ only partnership track jobs , and we don't start new grads anywhere near $310K. Our management company gives us numbers of comparable groups when we're in the hiring process, and I haven't seen any number that high for new grads.

While that is kinda high for starting out, I think mario is simply sharing what his colleagues have shared with him, fwiw. Then again, he listed nine different colleagues salaries, so who knows if all nine of them are giving him truthful numbers. No one ever really knows unless you see their tax returns. On the other hand, those nine might be the cream-of-the-crop and the other pathologists out of the 50-60 he's known over the years might be worse off. I wonder for if the higher earning pathologists on that list are out in the styx? Generally speaking, metro areas = lower income in pathology (like most other specialties).

 

[Med Director New England]

While that is kinda high for starting out, I think mario is simply sharing what his colleagues have shared with him, fwiw. Then again, he listed nine different colleagues salaries, so who knows if all nine of them are giving him truthful numbers. No one ever really knows unless you see their tax returns. On the other hand, those nine might be the cream-of-the-crop and the other pathologists out of the 50-60 he's known over the years might be worse off. I wonder for if the higher earning pathologists on that list are out in the styx? Generally speaking, metro areas = lower income in pathology (like most other specialties).

Maybe it’s just hearsay and maybe Mario is well intentioned - but that’s just not the market for new grads doing general SP in NE.

It’s not even close…

 

[KeratinPearls]

Maybe it’s just hearsay and maybe Mario is well intentioned - but that’s just not the market for new grads doing general SP in NE.

It’s not even close…

I interviewed for a job in upstate NY 375 starting with 100k bonus. No joke. Group of maybe 3 or 4 pathologists.

I didn’t get the job but they exist and aren’t common. It was near the Canadian/NY border. It’s what I would call boofoo but can be Fantasy Island to others like Webb Pinkerton.

It was the best package I saw for any pathologist job when I interviewed.

 

[Med Director New England]

I interviewed for a job in upstate NY 375 starting with 100k bonus. No joke. Group of maybe 3 or 4 pathologists.

I didn’t get the job but they exist and aren’t common. It was near the Canadian/NY border. It’s what I would call boofoo but can be Fantasy Island to others like Webb Pinkerton.

It was the best package I saw for any pathologist job when I interviewed.

Fair enough
But aren’t you dermpath ? Thought I remember you saying that before..

The market is quite different for DP compared to non dermpath. I don’t know the market in NY state or NYC nor do I consider them to be in New England…

 

[KeratinPearls]

Fair enough
But aren’t you dermpath ? Thought I remember you saying that before..

The market is quite different for DP compared to non dermpath. I don’t know the market in NY state or NYC nor do I consider them to be in New England…

No I’m not a dermpath. It was a general pathologist position but mainly surgpath. Sounded like a good surgpath job. Medium sized hospital. But again this is not common to find a job like this.