just wondering...what would you premeds do?

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I'm not a premed, but I was just wondering, if you knew docs were going to make 1/2 as much as they do now by the time you start practicing, would you still be premed now? I'm just curious because I'm a predent and if dentists made 1/2 as much as they do now, I would not go into it...I still would like the field, but money/salary is something important to me because of the life I want to live...what would you guys do?
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Half as much is still not that bad...if the salaries went down below to where I would be able to pay off my debt then I would reconsider and maybe look into veterinary medicine. :)
 
I think half as much money would still be a lot (or definitely enough to live by!). So I would still do it :)
 
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Half as much is still a lot more than a majority of the population makes. But (sigh, I know everyone will say this, so I will be the first) if money is the only determining factor for getting into medicine, then it probably isn't the best idea. You never know what's going to happen over the course of the next 5, 10 or 15 years with managed care the way it is, along with medicaid cuts and such. :( You're better off getting into something that you enjoy. :clap: There - I said it.
 
hey future doc, I don't know if that was a general comment or towards me, but just in case it was directed towards me, I'm not preMED, I'm preDENT. Part of the reason I'm preDENT is cause my parents are docs and I don't want to work like that...there, I said it.
 
While i'll agree that money should not be the only determining factor, I think it is still a very important factor. I think we have to work very hard to become physicians and should be justly compensated.That said, for half of what physicians make I would most likely still go into medicine.
 
No - not directed towards you. You asked about us premeds and that was my opinion as a premed. But, as a dentist you will be facing many of the same issues involving reimbursements as MD's. My whole point is, get into the field if you think you'll be happy doing it the rest of your life - not for the money. Trust me, I got into accounting for the money, and the money has been great. But it's not what I want to do the rest of my life - so now I'm getting into medicine. And even if it didn't pay much more than I make as a CPA, I would still want to go thru it all to become a doc.
 
future_doc, I didn't know CPA's made so much, but thanks for informing me. You're right though, everyone should go into what they see themselves doing the rest of their lives.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Future_Doc:
•Trust me, I got into accounting for the money, and the money has been great. But it's not what I want to do the rest of my life - so now I'm getting into medicine. And even if it didn't pay much more than I make as a CPA, I would still want to go thru it all to become a doc.•••••Way to go Future_Doc! :clap:

I also believe that I would go into medicine even it didn't pay as well. But the number of medical school applications has been decreasing in recent years, and one of the possible reasons is that students are put off by the increasing costs of med school. This may not be correct, but if it is, it suggests that a lot of people are looking at financial considerations when choosing a career. How much you will make is a financial consideration.
 
If you think about it, MD's are making 1/2 (roughly) of what they were 10-15 years ago. I know many docs who are completely disillusioned because they remember the 'good old days' and the adjustment has been hard on them because they were accustomed to their pre-managed-care lifestyle. Those whom I know that are handling the transition the best are those who truly enjoy using their skills to help patients. But they'll be the first to tell you that the dramatic decrease in income still hurts.

Bottom line is that this scenario is not unprecedented, and I think it's an important consideration that vixen's brought up.

On the upside, we will always have A job, no matter how bad the economy or our salaries get, because there will always be sick people around who need to be treated. I didn't have that security (although I had a very decent paycheck) in the corporate world.
 
If I were to go into family practice, I probably wouldn't do it. Otherwise, I would. I think I would definitely do it if tuition was half as much also. However, that's a virtual impossibility.
 
I'd still get into it. Medicine is my first love. <img border="0" alt="[Lovey]" title="" src="graemlins/lovey.gif" /> I'm in love with every aspect of the medical field (except the insurance company hassles). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by intoxicatedtiger:
•I think I would definitely do it if tuition was half as much also. However, that's a virtual impossibility.•••••Speaking of tuition costs, did you guys know that student tuition and fees actually pay for only a very low percentage of a medical school's total costs? I don't have my economics book with me right now, but I'm pretty sure it was 3.9%!
Seen in this way, med school is actually an incredible deal!
 
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Theoretically, yes, money is a major reason, and is in fact a driving force of what medicine is today. Health is wealth and the reverse is actually true. Health and survival is by default the most important thing of any living being, and with importance comes worth, and the realistic indicator of worth is money.

Nowadays dedication can only go so far without financial security. The bad thing about this is that the passion for medicine is limited to being a virtue. It less likely becomes a true motivator. Owning the virtue however separates the truly happy from those that simply work to survive.

In short, you will definitely see a decrease of applicants if money is taken away. And because the devotion to the study of health and wellness requires what is probably the longest amount of time versus any profession, the only other thing that can justify and support this is... you guessed it... money.

It gets worse with law students... as you might reasonably deduce.
 
Well, I dunno. A lot of specialists make well over $200,000 a year (that's in salary...). So, half of that would still be a lot of money!

But half of a FP's salary isn't all that much. Figure only about $50,000. Some union jobs pay more than that! And the guy working in an auto plant doesn't have $200,000 in student loans.

Given the choice between a FP at $50,000 a year and a researcher, I would definitely go into med research. But I'm an pre-MD/PhD, so I'm already partial to research. :)
 
I'm with Brando on this one. I couldn't justify a $200K investment if I end up only making $50K. I know I'll get flamed for this, but even a $100K salary ain't THAT much if you're dealing with a 200K debt + accrued interest over the med school & residency years. I'd prolly head into something else. Not cause I don't love medicine, I do. However, there comes a point where you can't just stick your head in the sand and actually have to look at the financial feasibility of what you're getting yourself into. Some people talk like they'd go into this field regardless of how high the tuition costs rise or how low physician salaries go. There just comes a point where it's not realistic anymore. I can almost guarantee that if the average physician salary was $50K, med school apps would be cut in half.
 
I would definitely still do it! :) Not everyone is in it for the money. The money is just an added benefit to all the costs and years of education we put into becoming a physician (not to mention all the sacrifices we have to make). I think future tuition costs should be lowered to offset future salary cuts.

I've chosen to devote my life to medicine and no amount of money would change that!! Heck, as a future physician, I sure hope I'm able to travel to developing countries and offer my free services once in awhile (Doctors Without Borders?).

Some people who are accountants, engineers, etc. do not have to entirely devote their lives to their careers. But as a physician, I choose to make my career my other priority (besides family of course).

On the contrary, I know someone who hates medicine and chose ophthalmology as a specialty so he/she could have a 9-5 job. Everyone has different reasons for going into medicine. However, from what I've been reading on SDN, I'm ever so glad that the majority of my future colleagues are going into it for the same reasons as I. :)

thanks for listening...
 
Of course, strictly speaking economics here. . . as the relative salaries of physicians decrease over time, the supply of physicians will undoubtedly decrease. (Especially with the opportunties available in technology these days - many people would rather get a 4-year BS and come out making a substantial salary.) So, without a corresponding decrease in demand (not likely - lots of sick people out there) - the price for medical services (salaries) will have to increase as well to increase supply once again simply to maintain a state of equilibrium in the economy.
 
Hypothetical scenario for everyone who says they'd still do it.

Med school tuition: $400K for 4 years, (not impossible 10 yrs down the line)
Average physician salary = average salary in the US ($30K/yr)

Would you still do it? BTW, interest on that $400K debt at say, oh, 8%, is $32K/yr. $2K more than you make before even paying taxes. See what I mean that there comes a point where it's not financially feasible anymore?
 
I think it's really a balance among joy with one's job, the amount of time needed to become useful, and one's salary (other factors, of course). If salaries were halved, I might seriously consider becoming a chef. At this point, I'd probably head into med school (4yrs undergrad + 4 yrs med + 4-6 yrs residency = 4 yrs undergrad + 4 yrs culinary school + 4+ yrs of sou chef & training). If I were coming out of high school, though, and salaries were halved? I'd probably become a chef (no need to earn my chem degree). I love culinary art and cooking, would only have to invest 8 or so years in training, and could earn ~$100K/yr pretty easily.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Papa Smurf:
[QB]I'm with Brando on this one. I couldn't justify a $200K investment if I end up only making $50K.QB]••••Haha. We can be un-PC together. :)

Listen, we all know how hard a doctor has to work. It's amazing hours, it's high stress, the education requirements are unreal, etc... It's far from an easy job. And I think they should be paid accordingly! If someone told me today I would only be making 50K, I would probably be making a beeline to research.

I'm not in meds for the money. I could have gone into law or business without too much trouble. But, if I'm going to be working my proverbial a$$ off for the rest of my life, and getting paid less than a good carpenter, then, well, that's just ridiculous.

But, I don't think that we have to worry about this. I think salaries are back on the rise, again. Right now, there is an oversupply of physicians. So, the insurance companies are in charge. But as the population ages, we should move into a position of physician shortage again, which should cause the power to move back into the hands of the doctors. I'm more than comfortable with existing salaries, even after the cuts of the past couple decades. And I don't see them going too much lower...
 
The decrease in supply may have already begun. Medical school applications have been decreasing in number. Also, more of our residency spots in this country are now filled by foreign medical doctors.

Richard Cooper et al are already predicting a huge undersupply of physicians (read Health Affairs Jan/Feb 2002 edition). This is hotly debated, though.
 
Papa Smurf,

Your hypothetical scenario is just too crazy. <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> I don't think the government or AAMC would allow it because we would then have an extreme shortage of physicians in this country! I think the salary cut would definitely weed out those individuals who do like medicine, but would be just as content doing something else.

Hey, better chance for me to be doing what I love. <img border="0" alt="[Lovey]" title="" src="graemlins/lovey.gif" />
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Papa Smurf:
•Hypothetical scenario for everyone who says they'd still do it.

Med school tuition: $400K for 4 years, (not impossible 10 yrs down the line)
Average physician salary = average salary in the US ($30K/yr)

Would you still do it? BTW, interest on that $400K debt at say, oh, 8%, is $32K/yr. $2K more than you make before even paying taxes. See what I mean that there comes a point where it's not financially feasible anymore?•••••Speaking hypothetically, of course - given your scenario, NOone will be able to afford to be a physician, everyone becomes bowling alley attendants and America has to cross over to Mexico for healthcare.

A reason your scenario is unrealitic - how does inflation drive up the cost of tuition 5 to 10 times as much much with a corresponding decrease in salaries 4 to 10 times less?? With market inflation that high and wages that low - we might as well be post WWII Germany. :D
 
I'm going to have to side with Papa and Brandonite on this one. You put your life on hold for 7-9 years before you start making a decent paycheck all the while you rack up $200,000+ in loans (isn't intrest a killer). You now have to pay off student loans, buy a house, support your family, buy into a practice (depending on specialty and how you decide to practice), and still have to save for retirement. There is alot of catching up to play if you chose to become a doctor. There also needs to be a payoff for all of the hard work you do. Yes as a Med Student I work my guts out and so will you. Gratification in your work is important but so is puting food on the table and roof over you families head. I also don't want to stress over money in my old age and I sure as hell don't want to work full time when I am 60+ because I HAVE to. Just food for thought.
 
i think we saw the effects in the drop in number of applicants these past few years. the dot.coms were luring away smart people who wanted to make big money real fast.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Future_Doc:
•Of course, strictly speaking economics here. . . as the relative salaries of physicians decrease over time, the supply of physicians will undoubtedly decrease. (Especially with the opportunties available in technology these days - many people would rather get a 4-year BS and come out making a substantial salary.) So, without a corresponding decrease in demand (not likely - lots of sick people out there) - the price for medical services (salaries) will have to increase as well to increase supply once again simply to maintain a state of equilibrium in the economy.•••••
 
It depends...

If half as much means 50,000 a year, then no. If you mean like surgery and 100,000 year, then probably, depending on insurance premiums.

As much as I'm doing medicine for the "right reasons," (I'm very sick of hearing this) I will not work for free. And I definitely won't work for less than minimum wage (which is what residents are close to making).

Sure you might piss on me right now, but later on when I'm fighting for our salaries you'll love me. Thanks.
 
•••quote:•••i think we saw the effects in the drop in number of applicants these past few years. the dot.coms were luring away smart people who wanted to make big money real fast.••••Which is definitely a good thing! That leaves the rest of us who want to do it for the right reasons...right? Sorry Schoolboy, but I'm gonna keep saying it!!!! :D
 
I'd still become a physician no matter the cost =P Why? Because there are loan-payback programs out there in return for serving in underprivileged areas etc.
 
If tuition costs rise and incomes fall drastically, we will see more foreign medical graduates entering the US. The government tries hard to influence the number of physicians. One of the fastest ways to increase the supply is to relax immigration laws. Like I said, this is already happening.

We all know that finances matter - I would think twice about medicine if I knew I would have to live in poverty. But consider this: in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, physicians in the US did not make much money. They were definitely not rich. And yet they still chose medicine. We can complain about lower physician incomes, but actually, doctors are still in a much better position than they were in then.

Then again, doctors had much more autonomy then, and one of the biggest complaints from doctors now is their lack of autonomy. Ahh, the issue is so deliciously complicated :)
 
Of course the scenario was crazy. That was the whole point!!! I always kinda laugh when someone tells me they'd go into medicine for free. I guess the concept of debt hasn't really sunk in with them. Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if med school debt did eventually reach $400K, although I don't expect salaries to drop to such a low level. But I do think physician salaries will continue to drop. My parents make a fraction of what they used to make. I remember the days where physicians wouldn't even accept medicare, now it's the bread and butter of every medical practice out there. You can't survive without it.

I was talking to a family friend (interventional cardiologist) the other day, and he was bitching about reimbursement rates. Apparently, medicare is only paying $250 for an angiogram these days, about 1/3 of what they used to pay. Granted, all of us poor pre-meds who know nothing about reimbursement rates say, wow, $250, that's a lot of money. Well, take into account his business overhead, and he probably has to do 80-100 of those every month just to break even. For those who know how invasive the procedure is and the inherent risks involved, you realize that that's a paltry sum. Don't even get me started on the joke that is medicaid. Insurance companies own physicians. It's sad. Really it is. In reality, it is supply and demand economics at work. I guess I'm just being realistic. I enjoy medicine, but there are other options for me out there as well which I wouldn't hesitate to explore should the need arise.
 
•••quote:•••originally posted by deva:
Ahh, the issue is so deliciously complicated</font>•••<img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> I like how you worded it. <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by oldman:
•i think we saw the effects in the drop in number of applicants these past few years. the dot.coms were luring away smart people who wanted to make big money real fast.
•••••There are many possible reasons for the drop in number of applications. This is one of them, but there are others. And as far as I know, no one has conclusively proved this. I haven't looked for these studies recently, though, so if anyone can point me to some, please do so.
 
•••quote:•••I was talking to a family friend (interventional cardiologist) the other day, and he was bitching about reimbursement rates. Apparently, medicare is only paying $250 for an angiogram these days, about 1/3 of what they used to pay.••••Sorry, I told myself I wasn't gonna post anymore to this hot issue, but just generally speaking...how can people be so greedy??? :confused: I don't exactly know how much interventional cardiologists make but don't they more than enough to get by? I knew a cardiology surgeon and he told me they make anywhere between 400K-1 Million. I think these two specialties may be different but I'm just throwing out some examples of how much some specialty physicians currently make and they're still bitching and complaining! :rolleyes:

Sorry...I just have a thing against physicians who are not satisfied with 3 Mercedes, 2 houses, etc...
 
hey schoolboy I agree with you! No one in health care (docs, dentists etc), should feel bad about wanting a decent salary. Other professions help people and those people would easily admit they wouldn't do it for free...we put in a lot of work and time, and there should be something good that comes along with that. Now people that demand too much is another story...

I just don't think there's anything wrong in admitting money is ONE factor (not THE factor). I doubt many people would do it if the salary was comparable to a teacher...even if your debt was less than it is now. It's a job. For the people who work in free clinics and offer free services and go to 3rd world countries to work for pennies...well those people are angels! really they are! I hold them in the higest regards, but I could or would never do it. I don't know, if people think thats selfish, so be it, but I think I'm speaking honestly.
 
Thanks vixen for the honesty, that is an admirable trait. Like I said people go into medicine for different reasons.

Overall, I guess it doesn't really matter why my future colleagues go into medicine. As long as they treat and care for their patients to the best of their ability. :)
 
tru dat l.rose

btw check out my post in the beauty thread... i added a bunch more :)
 
What I love is that the government taxes docs at about 29% of their income (my dad paid a little over $100,000 in taxes last year) and yet they can just "decide" how much they're going to reimburse docs for various treatments (medicaid). They're also horrible about paying on time. They usually take about 9 months to a year to pay back the docs. WTF? This is just bull****. Why does the government hold itself to a different standard when it has to pay? I tell you why: because the government if full of friggin' lawyers, the most self-serving of all professions!

I swear the days of "3 Mercedes and 2 houses" are long gone. It just ain't happening anymore. I know that $100,000 seems like a lot of money, but there is a tremendous amount of overhead that goes into being a physician, which is unique to the profession (like malpractice insurance).
 
Look, I love medicine. But not at all costs. I'm already sacrificing most of my 20's to this career. I'm taking on a job that is probably one of the hardest imaginable. And if you can get into med school, you could probably get a great job in law or business. At least where I'm from, getting into med school is considerably harder than law school.

So, I don't think a salary of $150K/$200K is unreasonable! Sounds about right to me... I think we should expect to be paid on the same level as doctors or lawyers!

Again, I am not in medicine for the money. There are many easier routes out there to wealth. :) But I'd be lying if I said it didn't play a part. If I couldn't live comfortably as a doctor, the sacrificies wouldn't be worth it. I'm not into punishing myself for no good reason... :)
 
Hi all....I was taking a break from studying (on a Friday night! :mad: ) and was surfing SDN and bumped into this thread. I just wanted to add my $0.02 to this topic.

I am currently a first year dental student and I am loving it. I must admit tho, I was seriously considering going into medical school during my college years at UCLA. However, shadowing my research PI, talking to friends and families and dentists made me decide against having a career as a physician. My reasons were two fold.

One..I realized that dentists have much more autonomy when it comes to managing their practice compared to MD's.

Two...it seemed to me that an avg dentist will make more annually than an avg MD.

You guys may flame me for my reason #2...but hear me out. I think it's very admirable that so many of you in this board want to go into this field for the sake of helping people, regardless of your income. HOWEVER, one must draw a line and decide for him or herself at which point will you say enough is enough. I know first hand how difficult medical education is (dental school isn't exactly a walk in the park...and I have many friends in med school). Now imagine yourselves 10 years from now as licensed medical doc. If you were making less than say a really successful plumber, do you think you would still have the same kind of satisfaction, the same level of enthusiasm that you have now? I think it would be really difficult when you realize at the end that you have put so much investment (time, energy, tuition $$) into your career and your return is less than satisfactory. I am not trying to sound greedy, but I think it's something that every one in this board has to think about......objectively.

Having said that, I applaud many of you who show such enthusiasm for your future career in medicine. If you need dental work in the future, hit me up, Steve Choi DDS... :D

Good luck all....and fight the power! (the insurance companies that is!)
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Steve:
•Good luck all....and fight the power! (the insurance companies that is!)•••••Hey guys, I don't want to fight the insurance companies, I want to find a way to work with them, and find better methods of payment, enrollment, etc for Medicare and Medicaid... which is why we need more people in health policy (people like me that is :D )

(Sorry, just saw an opportunity to plug health policy and I had to take it :) )
 
hey steve, you're not steve choi from long island are you?
 
Firstly - I'm not disputing the fact that PhD's are underpaid. But, once you get a nice tenured job, you can make good money at a university, and the workload is far less than that of an MD. And it is far easier to get into a PhD program than an MD program. As well, you can usually do a PhD in five years without difficulty. And your post-doc period will take less time than a residency.

Secondly, I think most med students could make it in some field. I'm not saying that they could do law, business, or engineering! But they could certainly do one of the three without difficulty. Engineering pay isn't all that great, but law and business are...

Again, just my opinion. And I am no doubt biased, given that I am a premed/med! :)
 
Increased malpractice insurances may also be a reason why applicant numbers have dropped.
 
sorry vixen....you're looking for the wrong steve choi.....i grew up in LA, cali
 
I don't care how you guys respond to this but I am saying how I feel. I am not bullshi@ting when I say that I would want to be a doctor if they made 30,000 dollars a year. I really would. Now I may be very idealistic but for me becoming a doctor isn't getting a job, its doing something I love and want to do. My goal in life is to help people and that is what doctors do. I really don't care how much money I make. I hate it when people start talking about money. I want a job that I love and to me that is being a doctor. If you make a **** load of money doing a job you don't like your not going to be happy. I have worked in many different places and alot of people have jobs that they don't like. I can see how miserable they are. having a job that pays more but sucks= ****ty life in my view. So all this talk about saleries going up or going down. Who f00king cares.

Ok there it is.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by PelicanMan:
•I don't care how you guys respond to this but I am saying how I feel. I am not bullshi@ting when I say that I would want to be a doctor if they made 30,000 dollars a year. I really would. Now I may be very idealistic but for me becoming a doctor isn't getting a job, its doing something I love and want to do. My goal in life is to help people and that is what doctors do. I really don't care how much money I make. I hate it when people start talking about money. I want a job that I love and to me that is being a doctor. If you make a **** load of money doing a job you don't like your not going to be happy. I have worked in many different places and alot of people have jobs that they don't like. I can see how miserable they are. having a job that pays more but sucks= ****ty life in my view. So all this talk about saleries going up or going down. Who f00king cares.

Ok there it is.•••••If all you want to do is ?help people? there are many ways you can do that with out being a doctor. You can be a Social worker, a priest, a fireman, a psychologist, an entertainer, a nurse, a PA, Etc, etc, etc. Why are you fixated on being a doctor?? Is it because of the power? The prestige? The money?

Anyone who claims they want to be a doctor because they want to ?help people? is either still in high school or else is only telling you half the story?
 
Kirk....you bring up a very valid point. I never thought of this issue in that way.
 
Kirk,

If we are still in "high school" as you may claim...what is YOUR reason for becoming a doctor? Pretend I'm an interviewer...look into my eyes and tell me WHY you want to become physician?

A priest or entertainer won't be able to help save the life of an individual. Not everyone has the built to become a fireman, nor the demanding social skills of a socialworker. So leave well enough alone :mad: and stop implying that people are immature for believing in "helping others" in the career that best suits their personality!!

You don't believe humanitarianism exists in premeds???
 
Lavndrrose, why don?t you want to be a nurse? They get to save lives, and they probably spend more time with the patients then the doctors do.

Once again my point is that there are more reasons to be a physician then to help people.

I think that it is obvious that most people enter medicine because in some fashion they do want to ?help people?. I don?t discredit this at all, and I also want to be able to save lives, heal people, etc...

I will give you a somewhat honest answer as to some of the reasons I want to be a Physician (other then helping people). First off, I want to go to medical school. I feel that medicine is one of the most grueling but rewarding educational processes in the world. I want to prove that I have the ability and drive to accomplish this.

I want to work in a job which I feel is very prestigious, and I feel that medicine is one of the most respected careers. I also want to be somewhat autonomous, and I want to be able to designate the course of action in treating people. I want to work in a lucrative field, and I don?t want to have to worry about money. I want to be rewarded for working hard- the harder I work the more I want to gain from it. Yes I do plan on making at least 100,000 dollars a year.

I think others might want to do some soul searching and admit why they really want to be a Doctor. I want to add that it is OK to have more reasons then one to go into medicine. Don?t feel like you are selling out because you might want something else besides ?helping people?!

Kirk
 
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