Just your typical 3rd year TERRIFIED of NAVLE/4th year

[langiyo]

Hi guys,

Heads up, I'm about to emotionally vomit all over you in 3....2....1... GO:

So we just got our rotation schedules for fourth year emailed to us, and it kind of made everything real and I feel like I've been sucker punched in the kidney. I've been through a lot in my vet school journey and I'm really proud of having overcome a lot of struggles esp. in my first year and making it through to where I am now. However, I'm nowhere near the top of my class, I'm probably coasting around somewhere on the bottom (too scared to even check my rank). Ever since I got into vet med somehow the whole "C's get degrees" seems to have become ingrained in me, because no matter how hard I try I never get more than a low C in everything. My first year was a spectacular belly flop into vet med, but I passed...by the skin of my teeth so I have a pretty sad foundation of anatomy knowledge. Since then I've gotten better, I work HARD, really hard, but I still feel really incompetent, I'll see questions or symptoms and half of my brain is like "Oh I've seen those words but I can't connect them to the answer" and the other half is like "LETS PRETEND WE DON'T KNOW ENGLISH ANYMORE LALALALA WHATS A COW"

I feel like this fourth year is going to be where my mask comes off, my cover is blown and everyone's going to find out that I don't belong here. I can get by in classes, its just paper, I can disappoint paper, I do it all the time...but how do I face off a clinician? I'm in UIUC and whenever I've shadowed on rotations I see the fourth years getting grilled and theres no way in hell I could answer the way they do, they look boss af, if that were me I would probably just shrivel up into nothing.

And the NAVLE? Thats like the ultimate filtration system, and its so high stakes, if I don't pass that then all of this: the struggles, the tears, working myself to the bone, that would have been all for nothing. How the heck do I cover all of those things that I missed on all my past exams? My rotation schedule is pretty full the month before I take the exam, how do I study for through that?

Anyway if anyone has had these struggles with imposter syndrome/self confidence please let me know how you overcame it...cause ya girl is having a TIME of it, and I'm trying to be gentle with myself but its hard when I'm surrounded by people who are so incredibly smart and sharp, and I'm just over here chillin like a bowl of oatmeal. And if you've done fourth year/ NAVLE what is something you would have done differently going in? How do you face off clinicians? What prep program should I use (I will literally spend as much money as I can if it gets me a passing grade)? How soon should I start studying for the NAVLE? Like I feel like I should just start in March or something? Is there anyone out there who didn't preform spectacularly in vet school but still passed?

Also if there are any online support groups for NAVLE/Fourth year strugglers I would love to join, even if it is a lil premature cause I haven't felt this scared about anything since first year.

I don't know how many of you guys have seen Mulan, but you know that scene where she's with the pitiful Chinese army and she's looking up at the hill and she sees one hun soldier, and then another one appears, and another, and pretty soon there is a panaroma of hun soldiers all leering down at her? Thats how I feel right now and I don't know if I will come home with honor after all thats about to go down.

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[KCgophervet]

So first of all, everything is going to be ok. Seriously.

Consider your worst case scenarios here:
You can't think of an answer to a question a clinician asks? Happened to me ALL THE TIME, sometimes my brain just shuts down and blocks any and all information processing when being asked directly. The correct answer in that situation "I'm not sure but I will consult my notes and get back to you." Or something to that effect. And then do it, look up all the things surrounding that question and bombard them with information. If its a question that needs a quicker answer, then "I'm not sure, what would you suggest?" Yes, it's obvious you didn't know the answer, but no one knows 100% of everything and sometimes just being put on the spot is what causes the lack of knowledge more than not actually knowing the answer. To help with some of these things, review the big stuff ahead of time. You know you have a diabetic animal coming in? Review all your diabetes info the night before, or even the 5 minutes before if you can. Find out what the most common diseases are for whatever service you're about to start and quickly review them the weekend before that rotation starts. And overall be enthusiastic and willing to help/participate/learn on your rotations, attitude I think counts for nearly as much if not more than straight knowledge. Absolute worst case and you fail a rotation? Prep more for the next time (assuming you have to repeat it) and go into it knowing that you have done your best (and do your best).

What if you don't pass NAVLE the first time? Well that's why they have the test twice a year isn't it? And hopefully you'll have a better idea of what areas you need to focus on and a better idea of how to take the test. Maybe it will even light a fire to study more/harder/better, I know sometimes my motivation is lacking unless there's some true panic involved (procrastinaaaaaation!). It will suck, but there are worse things that could happen in your life than failing NAVLE. Granted, much better to adequately prepare beforehand. I think the best prep you can do is to actually do some prep. Sounds dumb, but just putting the time into reviewing the material and repetition is probably the key, whether you do Zuku or VetPrep or just study off your vet school notes. People can/do pass with any of those methods. I had lofty goals of finishing 80% of VetPrep and getting started studying in May - in reality I only really started studying probably in September and finished 55% of VetPrep. I also did some of the "real" practice tests for $50/each and that's what lit the fire under my butt to get me into study mode - the first practice test I did predicted a range of scores with the lowest being just barely not passing. Cue the panic and going from 15% to 55% completed in a few weeks.

Overall, don't panic. 4th year is actually a combination of terror and fun. The rotations fly by so even if you get stuck in one you hate you always have the end of the tunnel in sight to move on to the next rotation. Don't go in with too many preconceived notions about rotations either - I thought surgery was going to be terrifying and I heard stories about the ridiculous amount of work it was and how no one got a good grade in that rotation, but I ended up absolutely loving it (and I got an A, I think my attitude is what pushed me into that grade more than actual skills or knowledge). Just be open minded about the rotations and try to think positive.

This was a ramble but I hope you start to feel better about 4th year, it's really the most interesting year of vet school.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Hi guys,

Heads up, I'm about to emotionally vomit all over you in 3....2....1... GO:

So we just got our rotation schedules for fourth year emailed to us, and it kind of made everything real and I feel like I've been sucker punched in the kidney. I've been through a lot in my vet school journey and I'm really proud of having overcome a lot of struggles esp. in my first year and making it through to where I am now. However, I'm nowhere near the top of my class, I'm probably coasting around somewhere on the bottom (too scared to even check my rank). Ever since I got into vet med somehow the whole "C's get degrees" seems to have become ingrained in me, because no matter how hard I try I never get more than a low C in everything. My first year was a spectacular belly flop into vet med, but I passed...by the skin of my teeth so I have a pretty sad foundation of anatomy knowledge. Since then I've gotten better, I work HARD, really hard, but I still feel really incompetent, I'll see questions or symptoms and half of my brain is like "Oh I've seen those words but I can't connect them to the answer" and the other half is like "LETS PRETEND WE DON'T KNOW ENGLISH ANYMORE LALALALA WHATS A COW"

I feel like this fourth year is going to be where my mask comes off, my cover is blown and everyone's going to find out that I don't belong here. I can get by in classes, its just paper, I can disappoint paper, I do it all the time...but how do I face off a clinician? I'm in UIUC and whenever I've shadowed on rotations I see the fourth years getting grilled and theres no way in hell I could answer the way they do, they look boss af, if that were me I would probably just shrivel up into nothing.

And the NAVLE? Thats like the ultimate filtration system, and its so high stakes, if I don't pass that then all of this: the struggles, the tears, working myself to the bone, that would have been all for nothing. How the heck do I cover all of those things that I missed on all my past exams? My rotation schedule is pretty full the month before I take the exam, how do I study for through that?

Anyway if anyone has had these struggles with imposter syndrome/self confidence please let me know how you overcame it...cause ya girl is having a TIME of it, and I'm trying to be gentle with myself but its hard when I'm surrounded by people who are so incredibly smart and sharp, and I'm just over here chillin like a bowl of oatmeal. And if you've done fourth year/ NAVLE what is something you would have done differently going in? How do you face off clinicians? What prep program should I use (I will literally spend as much money as I can if it gets me a passing grade)? How soon should I start studying for the NAVLE? Like I feel like I should just start in March or something? Is there anyone out there who didn't preform spectacularly in vet school but still passed?

Also if there are any online support groups for NAVLE/Fourth year strugglers I would love to join, even if it is a lil premature cause I haven't felt this scared about anything since first year.

I don't know how many of you guys have seen Mulan, but you know that scene where she's with the pitiful Chinese army and she's looking up at the hill and she sees one hun soldier, and then another one appears, and another, and pretty soon there is a panaroma of hun soldiers all leering down at her? Thats how I feel right now and I don't know if I will come home with honor after all thats about to go down.

Current 4th year at Illinois

So keep in mind that you've only seen fourth years after they've had at least 6ish months on clinics. As fourth year goes on, you get better at being grilled, knowing what you need to prep, etc. And even if you prep extensively, someone (often an intern, in my experience) will still ask you some off the wall question and make you feel incredibly stupid for not knowing. You may think 4th years are sharp and on top of it all the time, but you're just seeing it from the POV of someone who had only been in school for 4 months (1st year) or a little over a year (2nd year) so keep that in mind.

You're also shadowing students who have been studying for the NAVLE, so reviewing everything for several months (I started studying in August), which has been really helpful for the random grilling that you didn't prep for. I had a full schedule (no time off from May until the next coming block, actually) and managed to do 100% of VetPrep. Time management is all. NAVLE actually isn't a filter at all, tbh. If you study, you are expected to pass. You will always feel like you failed, but usually usually 96-98% of people pass at Illinois.

I'm in the bottom of my class as well and tbh I've been doing pretty well on clinics. I've aced some rotations and just perfectly fine on others. Never had a concern that I would fail, never been approached by a clinician with a concern/warning, etc. Work hard, have a good attitude, know when to ask for help, and actually prep your cases. The majority of my classmates who get into trouble aren't prepping or staying on top of their cases. As a fourth year, you generally know what appointment you are having the next day. The night before, you're home prepping the cases including differentials (if you happen to have any info on the animal), a diagnostic and treatment plan, etc. The grilling you see generally happens after the prepping, although of course it can happen out of the blue during rounds and whatnot.

Tbh, here at Illinois, you have to spectacularly **** the bed to fail a rotation, and even then some services pass students through to avoid dealing with them again (that's an entirely different conversation though...). By that I mean leaving a cyanotic ER patient in the waiting room instead of rushing it back, being awful to clients, leaving your anesthetized patient unattended to go to the bathroom, and so on. Remember that everyone makes mistakes and it doesn't mean you are stupid, unfit for the career, etc, but common sense goes a very long way.

Feel free to message me with questions specific to Illinois. Imposter syndrome sucks, but you get through it the best you can. everyone feels it at some point, so you're not alone.

 

[DVMDream]

How do you face off clinicians?

Don't consider it a "face off". You aren't competing against them, you are learning from them. They are going to challenge you, that is their job. Take a deep breath, think, tell them what you know. If you aren't sure, tell them that. I don't know a single clinician that expected us to know everything, but they wanted to see us make effort. If you aren't sure, tell them but tell them you will find out... then find out.

Research cases before hand or while caring for a patient if it shows up on your service. For example, ER transfers a case to internal med, you are on internal med and you take on case. Say it is a dog with pancreatitis.... research pancreatitis, types of pancreatitis, testing for pancreatitis, treatment of and complications of pancreatitis. Start learning about your patients when you have them.

You will be ok as long as the clinicians can see you are putting in effort, they aren't expecting you to be able to fully practice when you step foot on clinic, they expect you to learn, try, put in effort, be a decent person, and show progress. If you come into internal med for the third time and you still don't know anything about diabetes, they are going to be concerned.

 

[langiyo]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies, you don’t understand how much they mean to me. I think I psyched myself out since I’ve been looking up NAVLE stuff on SDN and have found a bunch of horror stories about people losing all their money and not being vets cause they couldn’t pass even on the 5th try and that scared the bajeezus out of me. But I feel like that’s not very common? After hearing you guys out, I feel a whole lot better, I didn’t even realize you could even look up cases beforehand because from the sidelines it all looks like an impossibly difficult improv. I’m great at doing the last min note scramble to look smart so I think I can wrangle it!

 

[langiyo]

Current 4th year at Illinois

So keep in mind that you've only seen fourth years after they've had at least 6ish months on clinics. As fourth year goes on, you get better at being grilled, knowing what you need to prep, etc. And even if you prep extensively, someone (often an intern, in my experience) will still ask you some off the wall question and make you feel incredibly stupid for not knowing. You may think 4th years are sharp and on top of it all the time, but you're just seeing it from the POV of someone who had only been in school for 4 months (1st year) or a little over a year (2nd year) so keep that in mind.

You're also shadowing students who have been studying for the NAVLE, so reviewing everything for several months (I started studying in August), which has been really helpful for the random grilling that you didn't prep for. I had a full schedule (no time off from May until the next coming block, actually) and managed to do 100% of VetPrep. Time management is all. NAVLE actually isn't a filter at all, tbh. If you study, you are expected to pass. You will always feel like you failed, but usually usually 96-98% of people pass at Illinois.

I'm in the bottom of my class as well and tbh I've been doing pretty well on clinics. I've aced some rotations and just perfectly fine on others. Never had a concern that I would fail, never been approached by a clinician with a concern/warning, etc. Work hard, have a good attitude, know when to ask for help, and actually prep your cases. The majority of my classmates who get into trouble aren't prepping or staying on top of their cases. As a fourth year, you generally know what appointment you are having the next day. The night before, you're home prepping the cases including differentials (if you happen to have any info on the animal), a diagnostic and treatment plan, etc. The grilling you see generally happens after the prepping, although of course it can happen out of the blue during rounds and whatnot.

Tbh, here at Illinois, you have to spectacularly **** the bed to fail a rotation, and even then some services pass students through to avoid dealing with them again (that's an entirely different conversation though...). By that I mean leaving a cyanotic ER patient in the waiting room instead of rushing it back, being awful to clients, leaving your anesthetized patient unattended to go to the bathroom, and so on. Remember that everyone makes mistakes and it doesn't mean you are stupid, unfit for the career, etc, but common sense goes a very long way.

Feel free to message me with questions specific to Illinois. Imposter syndrome sucks, but you get through it the best you can. everyone feels it at some point, so you're not alone.

THANK YOU SO MUCH! I so appreciate your UIUC fourth year perspective here, I definitely will hit you up with questions in the future! You made me feel like maybe I’ll be okay and I so appreciate that, thanks friend. ❤️

 

[langiyo]

So first of all, everything is going to be ok. Seriously.

Consider your worst case scenarios here:
You can't think of an answer to a question a clinician asks? Happened to me ALL THE TIME, sometimes my brain just shuts down and blocks any and all information processing when being asked directly. The correct answer in that situation "I'm not sure but I will consult my notes and get back to you." Or something to that effect. And then do it, look up all the things surrounding that question and bombard them with information. If its a question that needs a quicker answer, then "I'm not sure, what would you suggest?" Yes, it's obvious you didn't know the answer, but no one knows 100% of everything and sometimes just being put on the spot is what causes the lack of knowledge more than not actually knowing the answer. To help with some of these things, review the big stuff ahead of time. You know you have a diabetic animal coming in? Review all your diabetes info the night before, or even the 5 minutes before if you can. Find out what the most common diseases are for whatever service you're about to start and quickly review them the weekend before that rotation starts. And overall be enthusiastic and willing to help/participate/learn on your rotations, attitude I think counts for nearly as much if not more than straight knowledge. Absolute worst case and you fail a rotation? Prep more for the next time (assuming you have to repeat it) and go into it knowing that you have done your best (and do your best).

What if you don't pass NAVLE the first time? Well that's why they have the test twice a year isn't it? And hopefully you'll have a better idea of what areas you need to focus on and a better idea of how to take the test. Maybe it will even light a fire to study more/harder/better, I know sometimes my motivation is lacking unless there's some true panic involved (procrastinaaaaaation!). It will suck, but there are worse things that could happen in your life than failing NAVLE. Granted, much better to adequately prepare beforehand. I think the best prep you can do is to actually do some prep. Sounds dumb, but just putting the time into reviewing the material and repetition is probably the key, whether you do Zuku or VetPrep or just study off your vet school notes. People can/do pass with any of those methods. I had lofty goals of finishing 80% of VetPrep and getting started studying in May - in reality I only really started studying probably in September and finished 55% of VetPrep. I also did some of the "real" practice tests for $50/each and that's what lit the fire under my butt to get me into study mode - the first practice test I did predicted a range of scores with the lowest being just barely not passing. Cue the panic and going from 15% to 55% completed in a few weeks.

Overall, don't panic. 4th year is actually a combination of terror and fun. The rotations fly by so even if you get stuck in one you hate you always have the end of the tunnel in sight to move on to the next rotation. Don't go in with too many preconceived notions about rotations either - I thought surgery was going to be terrifying and I heard stories about the ridiculous amount of work it was and how no one got a good grade in that rotation, but I ended up absolutely loving it (and I got an A, I think my attitude is what pushed me into that grade more than actual skills or knowledge). Just be open minded about the rotations and try to think positive.

This was a ramble but I hope you start to feel better about 4th year, it's really the most interesting year of vet school.

I really appreciate this friend! I’m definitely book marking those professional responses to clinicians, my current go to is just “I DONT KNOW IM SORRY” which doesn’t make me sound all that great. I never thought of thinking about how fourth year is going to be fun/interesting I was too busy being terrified but I think I’ll try to remember that this isn’t supposed to be torture, next time I panic.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

THANK YOU SO MUCH! I so appreciate your UIUC fourth year perspective here, I definitely will hit you up with questions in the future! You made me feel like maybe I’ll be okay and I so appreciate that, thanks friend. ❤️

You WILL be okay!!

 

[Minnerbelle]

I've worked with a number of 4th year students, and you know what, how well they do don't have much to do with their knowledge base coming in. Yes, knowledge is important, but what's important is that you leave with it, not necessarily that you come in with it.

And yes, some kids are just way behind others in their knowledge base and sometimes it can be painful to watch. But what makes that student good/bad is how they deal with it. Being honest is important. Fake it til you make it works for clients. Don't do it to clinicians. Don't babble nonsense forever. If it's a question you need to answer for patient care (e.g. Drug info, things to watch for, etc...), say you don't know and ask if you have time to look it up now? If not, they'll tell you. You'll realize that a lot of students around you also won't know the answer. But sometimes there is that one student that is lagging way behind the others. If you're really struggling, pull the clinician aside and let them know that you are weak in this area (who cares if you're weak in all areas, it's still true!), and that you are doing everything you can to catch up to everyone else and that you would appreciate extra support and resources.

Can you do well despite lack of knowledge? Hell yes! Have a good attitude. Absorb the material that you're being taught in clinics. Some people are horrible book learners, but doesn't be a defeatist if that's you. Instead go in with the attitude of "I am someone learns better from experience, this is my chance to catch up." Don't be the kid that never learns because all they can do is focus on their inadequacy. Focus on being a sponge. Any answer you can't answer once, be sure you can answer it next time. Anytime drug doses or sets of treatments for any condition are said, jot them down so you can reference later.

Be helpful. Be a team player. TAKE CARE OF YOUR PATIENT better than anyone else. Run into the wards quickly every couple of hours and check the status of your patients, so you can be helpful later in the day to update the clinician and say things like, "really good news is that fluffy started eating this afternoon, and there was no diarrhea for the past 2 walks" or "the urine for the blocked cat has been getting clear throughout the day, and when I last checked it was no longer bloody so maybe we can take the UCath out?"

Transfer cases are hard first thing in the morning. You don't have much time to become an expert on the case, so don't try there. Don't waste time looking up "leptospirosis" for an hour in anticipation for a grilling. Literally spend no more than 10 min on something like the clinical vet advisor or VIN ASSOCIATES page summary of the condition to hopefully absorb the basics. Your time is better spent TAKING CARE of your patient. Lean on your classmates, any house officers around, and the experienced technicians to put together that initial treatment plan. You have the ER's overnight plan to work off of. Make sure you have the facts of the case straight. Know your patient better than anyone else. Know the signalment, vitals, current status, and read through the intake report and patient's rDVM records and be able to present the case consicely. Be punctual. And make sure that you always have all of the busywork and admin things done on time. Make sure all pharmacy orders are correct and submitted in a timely fashion. Make sure discharges are worked on throughout so there's enough time for someone to proof and edit prior to discharge, even if the patient is discharged early unexpectedly. Prioritize patient care first. Prioritize getting done tasks you're responsible for so that clinicians aren't waiting for you ever. Prioritize not wasting the clinician's time (e.g. Don't take half an hour in the room with a client when the clinician is waiting for you to go in). Don't be a case dodger, and don't be lazy, but if you're the weakest link in the rotation, don't be a hero and take on extra until you know you can handle it.

Once you're done with your day is when you can really make a difference. Like you said, you work hard. And that's important. This is when you can catch up. Now that you've had that inpatient for the day, you can look up everything you need to know. Make sure you understand all treatments and diagnostics, and have a solid plan for your patient. Be ready for that grilling tomorrow. I give mad props for these students who suck on their cases when they first see it, but then are on fire after just having a day to soak it in.

You also have the appointment schedule for the next day. Look through and make sure you understand it. Thankfully on an academic service, the case load is pretty low. This is where people think I'm crazy, but as a 4th year I actually pulled the files of every patient coming in the next day and summarized every file (typed out lab abnormalities and previous medical histories from both teaching hospital and rDVM records). Clinicians hugely appreciated it to have a 1-2 page summary of a huge stack of papers to the point where they added it to the file for complicated cases. I also had a plan for what to ask the client, along with a tentative assessment/plan. I learned a tremendous amount from doing that, even for the cases I wouldn't be seeing myself.

If you shine in every other way, there is no need to fear not being able to answer questions on the spot! Really. Clinicians are used to it.

 

[JaynaAli]

I agree with previous sentiments. One thing I will add are that by the time you’re on clinics, by and large (yes, exceptions exist), most of the clinicians are there because they like teaching and want to be there. The vast majority of specialists could be making significant more money in private practice where they would not have to deal with students if that was what they wanted. Keeping that in mind helped me with the nerves on clinics...these people want to be there and help you learn. It may be different for house officers (who are probably who you may actually interact with more on clinics) who may or may not have an interest in teaching, but that’s my experience for faculty.

 

[Trilt]

Just read Minnerbelle's post like four times and do everything in it.

Except the summarizing everything. I'm not that hardcore.

Here's a post from when I was on internal med:

Internal medicine so far:

And my own thoughts a year out:

You don't have to know everything. Hell, there were times I knew basically nothing about a case because it wasn't what I expected/researched and questioning just went off into left field. But have a good attitude, LOOK THINGS UP AFTERWARDS so you know the answer next time, and for bonus points, come back with a question you want re: the topic. My very favourite internal medicine clinician questioned the **** out of me and I basically never knew what he wanted as an answer after the first, like, three questions. Some people hated him because he was really intense about questioning. But I'd come back the next day after researching and ask him, "why don't we do this? can we use this for this? etc etc" and sometimes he wouldn't know an answer and he loved it haha.

But tbh, attitude gets you at least 90% of the way in rotations. Be nice and your life is so much easier. I can't tell you how many times later in the year (when I was only in the teaching hospital occasionally) that I got waved off by ICU/IMC techs and told to go prepare for rounds or whatever instead of finishing some silly time intensive treatment, they'd take care of it, because they remembered me being decent to them early on rotations when I basically lived there. (Also I'd try and bring leftover Food Friday stuff into ICU... a little bribery never hurts. )

You don't have to be the most cheerful person on the planet (I am NEVER cheerful at 5am) but being quick to smile, make fun of yourself if you make stupid mistakes (you will) and being decent to people... it makes a big difference. And honestly, I was not a good student. I didn't - don't still - have a particularly amazing knowledge base from pre-clinical years. Lots of it was crammed and forgotten. But I am damn good at looking things up, I care about my patients, and I'm nice to people, and I did great in clinics and do fine in real life.

But I'm rambling a little at this point.

And two years out:

I seriously had a really **** knowledge base going into rotations (and I took internal med first - with WAY too smart of people!) but I admitted when I didn't know things, learned and read and questioned and always always ALWAYS got better by the next day, and did fine. You will too.

I still look things up constantly. I'm good at BSing lightly with owners but also say "I don't know" pretty damn routinely. You will never know everything, and getting comfortable with that early is only a benefit.

 

[DVMDream]

You could tell when clinicians would get irritated, overall things they got irritated by:

1. Students who were late.
2. Students who didn't prioritize patient care.
3. Students who would randomly disappear throughout the day.
4. Students who slacked, we had one that fell asleep in the middle of ICU during ER rotation-- don't do that. Yes, everyone is tired, yes it can be hard, but this student was also regularly late, didn't show up, wouldn't show for hours, then would just sleep through the rotation.
5. Students who didn't keep up on records, as Minnerbelle said, even if your patient will be there for a while, keep up on discharges, have a template ready, you can add/delete from that but be ready, keep on top of things.
6. Students who didn't learn/pay attention, if we just discussed diabetes the day prior and a student couldn't answer the basics that we just went through less than 24 hours ago, the clinicians weren't very happy. They don't expect you to know specialist level info on diabetes, but the basics, if it has been gone over, you should know them.

Never did I see a clinician get mad because a student didn't know the answer to something instantly the first time they were asked. They don't expect that, but they ask because they are trying to get an idea of your baseline knowledge as well as the rest of the rotation's baseline knowledge so that rounds are more efficient and effective.

 

[deleted498041]

House officer here. Students come in all variations of knowledge base. I will never hold it against a student if they don't know the answer to my questions because my job is to find out where your knowledge base stops and challenge you to expand it.

Things that I don't like in students:
1. Being late. If you're early, you're on time, and if you're on time, you're late. If you're consistently ten minutes late every day, set your alarm 10 minutes earlier. There is no excuse for tardiness.
2. Not being on top of your patient care. If you come to rounds every day and say "Eh, Fluffy is the same," that's going to irritate me and result in a poor evaluation for you. Did Fluffy eat? Urinate? Defecate? How is Fluffy's attitude? How painful is Fluffy? What's your plan for Fluffy today?
3. Not having your paperwork done on time. I find that I'm more flexible than other residents, so I feel like there's really no excuse if a patient has been here for five days and you haven't even opened the discharge.
4. Not caring. If I know that another clinician has asked you a question before, and then I ask you that question and you have no idea, that's bad. I get that there's no way to prep for morning transfers but if you know we have a TPLO coming in and you don't know ANYTHING about cruciate disease, you should probably read up on cruciate tears and how a TPLO works. If I tell you that we're going to have rounds on a certain topic and we assign you a topic to teach the other students and then you come in the next day saying you haven't had time to read about it, that looks very bad.

Minnerbelle's post really is something you should follow. If all of my students carried through with what she wrote, they'd all pass with honours. My service is a little different than something like medicine for pulling records and writing up a summary but if you could do something even as minor as looking at the last couple discharges or rDVM records (if available), and printing off the most recent labs, that would be AMAZING. I look at all of these things the night before appointments but I usually don't create hard copies, so it really makes my day when a student puts in that effort.

Some house officers are easier to get along with others, we all know it. Keep a smile on, be positive, and work hard. Most of us are here instead of doing a private practice residency because we wanted to take on a teaching role.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

could do something even as minor as looking at the last couple discharges or rDVM records (if available), and printing off the most recent labs

A tip for @langiyo : Just fyi, this is something that is expected of you at Illinois regardless of the service. I'd consider it major for us. You certainly don't have to print everything-I choose to type up everything I feel is relevant to the clinicians in a word doc and update it as we go (this is really helpful for rounds when you're presenting, too). This is what I meant in my previous post when I said we prep for appointments. You study all the available info about the patient, the diagnosed condition or the clinical signs they're presenting for, etc. If you don't do this for a scheduled appointment that you knew about, you're going to be in some hot water.

A good chunk of fourth year is showing initiative. Don't wait to be told to call an owner for an update. If you have the info of the rDVM, call for records if you don't have them already (or call the client the night before and ask for their rDVM info). If your patient needs a blood draw at precisely 10am and you can't do it, get a friend or tech to help you. It seems small, but initiative makes fourth year much smoother and like Okimo said, it really makes the residents happy.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I don't expect students to be geniuses who know everything in fourth year. This is what it's called vet school.

I DO expect you to:

Be on time and engaged
Be polite to clients, the staff, and your colleagues
Be helpful to your colleagues and jump in if they need it
Be prepared (read up on procedures you will be doing or helping with)
Be willing to try even if you don't know the answer
Be able to formulate differential diagnoses and treatment plans
Have what you need (pen, stethoscope, tape etc)
Have at least some enthusiasm and work hard, even if you have zero interest in the rotation
Have good record-keeping and communication skills (or at least, don't hand me chicken scratch on a post-it and say our patient is "ok" and nothing else specific)
Have the grace to admit that you made a mistake rather than hide it and make things worse