KCUMB Discussion thread 2007-2008

[endocardium]

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Maybe my colleagues have different motives, but really, I'm not saying you shouldn't attend KCUMB, or that you won't be happy. My main goal was to make you aware of some of the significant issues that you might or will be facing. As future students, I highly urge you to keep your eyes and ears open and to not accept the crap that is handed to you, no matter how beautiful the paper that it is wrapped in. I hate to see the issues continue year after year, or get worse, due to apathy.

The thing is, we all get so wrapped up in medical school that we just ignore the pink elephants stomping around in the room. Then, the problems continue on, unchecked. Don't become hypnotized by the propaganda. Don't buy the crap that they are trying to sell you, hook, line and sinker. Some of the things that are happening are not okay. You can be successful despite it, but at some cost to you, I presume.

Really, all you new students have to go on, for the most part, is your experience during interview day, or second-hand sources. I and my colleagues are primary sources and we are telling you some of the very unpleasant or unsavory realities of attending KCUMB. I can't speak for anyone else, but generally, I'm a pretty happy person. I'm just saying don't stand for the ****. It's not okay to screw the students and to downgrade education. It's not okay to make questionable educational decisions simply because they make fiscal sense. Don't let them take away what's rightfully yours. You have the right to the kind of education you paid for. These are the take home messages.

 

[ChristianDoc]

Does anyone have Michelle Sparks' phone number? They gave us a folder for relocation at the interview. All of my stuff is boxed up right now from moving back home, and I don't know where her number is. Thanks!

Here is Michelle's info 🙂
Michelle Sparks
Senior Relocation Specialist
ApartmentSearch by CORT
A Berkshire Hathaway Company
6326 NW Barry Road
Kansas City, MO 64154

T 816.587.5525 C 913.481.7658 F 816.587.6362

[email protected]
apartmentsearch.com

 

[aminoacid]

1) I don't understand why this should bother anyone.
2) For all I know, class size has stayed the same for many years at about 250. When did it increase and by how much?
3)Where doesn't it? I would like to add that the tuition is still a couple thousand dollars cheaper per year than the in-state private allopathic school in my state and the specialization rate is much higher at KCUMB.
4) Is this a donation from KCUMB or Pletz herself? How was it rationalized if it was actually a donation from KCUMB?
5) What are his other qualifications?

Thanks for the info. If you could provide the full details I would appreciate it.

I've been lurking for a while and decided to post.
I'll comment on the issues I have first-hand knowledge of:
Class size increased from 239 to 250 about 2-3 yrs. ago.
1st & 2nd yrs. are where you get the foundation of medicine. 3rd & 4th yrs. 3rd yr. is where you really learn to become a physician. It's not that tuition is high, it is high when you factor in going to an "affiliate hospital."
At affiliate hospitals/sites, the physicians teach you for free. The hospitals may or may not receive a nominal fee for your presence. Group malpractice insurance for medical students is not that expensive. The physicians run medical practices 1st and foremost. Some are more interested in teaching than others. Not all hospitals allow you to examine patients and write in charts. Not all physicians allow you to examine patients in their offices and write in their charts. Not all sites have didactics. Again, very important since 3rd yr. allows limited time to study for boards. Didactics also strengthen the bridge to clinical medicine. Some physicians do not manage patients in the hospital so you may end up with only clinic. Huge disadvantage come real-world medicine. Keep in mind, not all "core" sites are created equally. This is the advantage of paying extra money to your "in-state allopathic school" if it pays its clinical faculty full-time to teach you. It sucks going on rotations during 4th year to make up for a deficient 3rd yr when you'd rather use that time to go on audition rotations. Many audition rotations expect you to function at the level of an intern (PGY-1) if you're seriously considering their programs; not feasible if you did not receive that foundation in 3rd yr.
Come match time, it helps if you do not match but have an experienced dean who can call program directors on your behalf & lobby for you. Ignore the match list because it only gives a snap shot of a class for a given year. For example, many people have a physician in the family, so they have connections. Many did audition rotations and busted their tails to make a good impression. Very few people matched at a place solely on the "reputation" of KCUMB.

 

[PokerDoc]

i think your last sentence is your best one.. no one matches on reputation alone.. you gotta work your tail off.


can any of you comment on the orlando affiliate site? is it tough to get into for rotations & is it a good site?

 

[Whittier2006]

I heard that KCUMB has a one year Masters program where getting a 3.5 will automatically get you into the Osteopathic Program. I tried looking on the site for information on this, but couldn't find anything. Just wondering if there's any truth to this.

I looked on the site for info about this, because it sounds like an interesting program, but I couldnt find it. Anyone know where to look?

 

[surgeryguru]

I've been lurking for a while and decided to post.
I'll comment on the issues I have first-hand knowledge of:
Class size increased from 239 to 250 about 2-3 yrs. ago.
1st & 2nd yrs. are where you get the foundation of medicine. 3rd & 4th yrs. 3rd yr. is where you really learn to become a physician. It's not that tuition is high, it is high when you factor in going to an "affiliate hospital."
At affiliate hospitals/sites, the physicians teach you for free. The hospitals may or may not receive a nominal fee for your presence. Group malpractice insurance for medical students is not that expensive. The physicians run medical practices 1st and foremost. Some are more interested in teaching than others. Not all hospitals allow you to examine patients and write in charts. Not all physicians allow you to examine patients in their offices and write in their charts. Not all sites have didactics. Again, very important since 3rd yr. allows limited time to study for boards. Didactics also strengthen the bridge to clinical medicine. Some physicians do not manage patients in the hospital so you may end up with only clinic. Huge disadvantage come real-world medicine. Keep in mind, not all "core" sites are created equally. This is the advantage of paying extra money to your "in-state allopathic school" if it pays its clinical faculty full-time to teach you. It sucks going on rotations during 4th year to make up for a deficient 3rd yr when you'd rather use that time to go on audition rotations. Many audition rotations expect you to function at the level of an intern (PGY-1) if you're seriously considering their programs; not feasible if you did not receive that foundation in 3rd yr.
Come match time, it helps if you do not match but have an experienced dean who can call program directors on your behalf & lobby for you. Ignore the match list because it only gives a snap shot of a class for a given year. For example, many people have a physician in the family, so they have connections. Many did audition rotations and busted their tails to make a good impression. Very few people matched at a place solely on the "reputation" of KCUMB.

Very, very insightful, aminoacid! Well done.

I'm not commenting on all of the responses to my first post. However, I will say that to all of you just looking to get into a school, fine....go for KCUMB. You'll get AN education, you'll most likely get A residency. It just depends on what KIND of education you want and the REPUTATION/QUALITY of the residency you want. If all you want is to have a "Dr." title, go for it...KCUMB is as fine as anywhere else. But, if you want to be amidst administrators, faculty, students, and alums who care deeply about academics, KCUMB should be WAY DOWN on your list.

If you want to go to a top residency, which by the way is where I will be headed next month, you will have to work you *** OFF with extracirriculars, off-campus activities, research internships (not at KCUMB), and possibily also look for mentors away from KCUMB who focus on your academic success. Though it is ABSOLUTELY true that administrators at KCUMB don't give a **** about osteopathic education, faculty are a different breed. The shame of it all though, is that they are SO overworked and stretched thin that they are absolutely UNABLE to focus on teaching and academic excellence to the extent that they would like.

For all of you attending KCUMB next year, all my best. Just keep your antennas up. And if you choose to speak up, watch your back. They WILL COME AFTER YOU!!! You will lose opportunities, you will lose awards, and they have even dared mess with people's chances for certain residencies in the past. Choose to believe or not. I tell you these things FIRST-HAND.

 

[aminoacid]

i think your last sentence is your best one.. no one matches on reputation alone.. you gotta work your tail off.

can any of you comment on the orlando affiliate site? is it tough to get into for rotations & is it a good site?

Okay.
It's good to see your enthusiasm for your soon-to-be medical school.
Your comments remind me of myself at your stage in my education, but experience has since taught me better.
My post is not to encourage or discourage anyone, just a response to the OP.

"A good site" is relative. Rather than comment on a specific core site, I suggest that you go to the OCCE and ask them to look at the student evaluations of the sites and preceptors. I do recommend that you not have your heart set on a particular site. The sites and preceptors can change from year to year. It is possible that a site you are interested in now may not be an option for your clinical years. It is also possible that you may not get your first choice. It is also possible that you may end up at a brand new site. It is also possible that a site may not be competitive for one class, but competitive for another. While the OCCE does make every attempt to accommodate, not everyone gets their first choice, or second choice.

 

[surgeryguru]

Its sad that your about to graduate, but you post on here to discourage others who are about to embark on this journey and are happy to get the opportunity to do so.

That's where you're wrong, DiverDoc! There is NOTHING sad about the fact that I'm getting ready to graduate. In fact, it is joyous and wonderful and exhilerating...all feelings I have about being completely unaffiliated with KCUMB any more!

That said, I in no way intend to steal your joy. Congratulations on your acceptance to KCUMB, and all my best throughout the rollercoaster years of medical school.

 

[bobg504]

Very, very insightful, aminoacid! Well done.

I'm not commenting on all of the responses to my first post. However, I will say that to all of you just looking to get into a school, fine....go for KCUMB. You'll get AN education, you'll most likely get A residency. It just depends on what KIND of education you want and the REPUTATION/QUALITY of the residency you want. If all you want is to have a "Dr." title, go for it...KCUMB is as fine as anywhere else. But, if you want to be amidst administrators, faculty, students, and alums who care deeply about academics, KCUMB should be WAY DOWN on your list.

If you want to go to a top residency, which by the way is where I will be headed next month, you will have to work you *** OFF with extracirriculars, off-campus activities, research internships (not at KCUMB), and possibily also look for mentors away from KCUMB who focus on your academic success. Though it is ABSOLUTELY true that administrators at KCUMB don't give a **** about osteopathic education, faculty are a different breed. The shame of it all though, is that they are SO overworked and stretched thin that they are absolutely UNABLE to focus on teaching and academic excellence to the extent that they would like.

For all of you attending KCUMB next year, all my best. Just keep your antennas up. And if you choose to speak up, watch your back. They WILL COME AFTER YOU!!! You will lose opportunities, you will lose awards, and they have even dared mess with people's chances for certain residencies in the past. Choose to believe or not. I tell you these things FIRST-HAND.

I would be really curious to know who this person is. As a former member of the KCUMB Class of 2008, I will be the first to say our school is not perfert, however, no institution of higher learning, including most allopathic medical schools are perfect either. The above poster has brought up some valid points, however, they seem vailed in negativity and frustration. I believe that alot of medical eduction is WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT! I came to KCUMB with the goal of getting the best education I could. I feel that I learned just as much during the "basic science years" as all my friends attending allopathic medical schools. I have scored WELL above average on both the USMLE and COMLEX exams. While support services and teaching are important, medical school is not the time for hand-holding. I felt that during the basic science years, KCUMB did an excellent job with that.

Regarding clinical education during the 3rd year: I do believe that there may be some variation between core sites, but the OCCE Dept tries to ensure that students have a proper experience. After finishing my 3rd year, I felt as comfortable as my allopathic counter parts examing and interviewing patients and developing both differential diagnosies and treatments. I can tell you that I know MANY students who attend allopathic institutions that have had bad clinical experiences, so I believe that it is all relative.

In order for ANY medical student to acquire a "top residency" (not sure what your definition of "top" is) they must work hard to achieve excellence in both academics and extracurricular activities. While KCUMB may not afford many opportunities concerning research, they are VERY supportive of students who seek such opportunities elsewhere I did research in cardiovascular diseases during the summer between my 1st and 2nd years at Mayo Clinic Rochester, MN

Regarding mentorship: While KCUMB may not have mentors working in the discipline you wish to practice, I personally dont think it is thier responsibility to "hand you a mentor". If a student is intent on success, they should seek out mentors.

KCUMB has always been amiable to suggestions regarding improvements in how things are done. I have seen them "go after" people. However, the people they "went after" did not address their issues in a profesional manner. I think in the end it's all about respect.

In conclusion, all medical schools have issues. I believe that the mindset of each medical student determines how they will react to these issues. I feel that KCUMB has afforded me a quality medical education and has facilitated my interest outside its institution. I have completed a summer research fellowship at Mayo following 1st year. Following completion of my 3rd year (June 07), I took a year off to persue a competitive fellowship in clinical research at Mayo Clinic Rochester and will be completing it this month. I have published several case reports and peer-review articles (first author) as well during medical school. I have stated all the above, not to brag, but to illustrate that KCUMB has been supportive and that KCUMB is WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT! I hope this post helps!

 

[surgeryguru]

4) Is this a donation from KCUMB or Pletz herself? How was it rationalized if it was actually a donation from KCUMB?
5) What are his other qualifications?

Hey there, t-funk. I will address the last two questions, since the others seem to have been adequately addressed above.

4) The $350,000 donation was made on behalf of KCUMB (not Pletz) to Starlight Theatre. There is no discernable explaination for this large sum of money being given to a local attraction in Kansas City, other than the fact that Karen Pletz was on the board at Starlight Theatre at the time the donation was given. Conflict of interest? I think so.
***Please check the archives of the Kansas City Star for the article dated October 22, 2006 which confirms this****

5) Darin Haug is currently only 2 years of of his residency. Thus, his "qualifications" are those you find on many medical student/resident CVs. Outrageous and embarassing are two descriptors for the recent decision to appoint his as dean to replace the impressively qualified previous Dean, Dr. Sandra Willsie. Below is a quote from the memo sent to students on May 1, 2008 giving us a list of meaningless, BS "qualifications" that somehow make him qualified to academically lead not only students but also faculty (many of whom have FAR more experience and MANY more qualifications for this job than he).

"In August, 1997 he entered KCUMB’s College of Osteopathic Medicine where he rose yet again to leadership, first as a class Senator and then, in 1998,
to Student Senate President, serving as a Missouri delegate to the AOA
House of Delegates, 1998 and 1999, on the original KCUMB NCA Self
Evaluation Steering Committee; on the Genesis 2000 Curriculum
Project, on the CQI Course Evaluation Task Force and as Missouri’s
student representative to the AOA Unity Summit in 1999."​

 

[surgeryguru]

I have scored WELL above average on both the USMLE and COMLEX exams. While support services and teaching are important, medical school is not the time for hand-holding.
In order for ANY medical student to acquire a "top residency" (not sure what your definition of "top" is) they must work hard to achieve excellence in both academics and extracurricular activities.
I did research in cardiovascular diseases during the summer between my 1st and 2nd years at Mayo Clinic Rochester, MN
I have completed a summer research fellowship at Mayo following 1st year. Following completion of my 3rd year (June 07), I took a year off to persue a competitive fellowship in clinical research at Mayo Clinic Rochester and will be completing it this month. I have published several case reports and peer-review articles (first author) as well during medical school.

I know exactly who you are (BB). Thank you for your comments, though I respectfully disagree with a lot of what you said above.

I never sough out "hand-holding". I, also, scored well above the national average on USMLE. I have done research at a TOP instituion (not saying which one, because I am very purposefully hiding my identity from those at KCUMB). I will be attending a TOP (ranked 4th in the nation for allopathic programs) residency next month. I have numerous publications in top-tear journals (Cancer, J of Clinical Oncology, etc).

You may disagree with me, my former classmate. But please believe that I have insight that you do not. Our experiences at KCUMB were different...fine. I'm just letting these innocent pre-meds (just like I was) know certain things to expect at KCUMB.

Thanks again, and best of luck at Mayo and in your future of anesthesia.

 

[bobg504]

I know exactly who you are (BB). Thank you for your comments, though I respectfully disagree with a lot of what you said above.

I never sough out "hand-holding". I, also, scored well above the national average on USMLE. I have done research at a TOP instituion (not saying which one, because I am very purposefully hiding my identity from those at KCUMB). I will be attending a TOP (ranked 4th in the nation for allopathic programs) residency next month. I have numerous publications in top-tear journals (Cancer, J of Clinical Oncology, JAMA).

You may disagree with me, my former classmate. But please believe that I have insight that you do not. Our experiences at KCUMB were different...fine. I'm just letting these innocent pre-meds (just like I was) know certain things to expect at KCUMB.

Thanks again, and best of luck at Mayo and in your future of anesthesia.

I am dying to know who you are....PM me, lol. I didnt mean to imply that you sought out "hand holding" as the Class of 2008 was VERY SMART. Im sure you remember those class averages! I am really excited for you guys. Since Im in MN Im gonna drive down to "see you guys off." Congats on your match and im certain you'll be unstoppable. PM me so I can know who im talking to!

 

[surgeryguru]

I am dying to know who you are....PM me, lol. I didnt mean to imply that you sought out "hand holding" as the Class of 2008 was VERY SMART. Im sure you remember those class averages! I am really excited for you guys. Since Im in MN Im gonna drive down to "see you guys off." Congats on your match and im certain you'll be unstoppable. PM me so I can know who im talking to!

Can't let my identity be known (need to graduate first), but I look forward to seeing you at graduation. Take care.

 

[bobg504]

Hey there, t-funk. I will address the last two questions, since the others seem to have been adequately addressed above.

4) The $350,000 donation was made on behalf of KCUMB (not Pletz) to Starlight Theatre. There is no discernable explaination for this large sum of money being given to a local attraction in Kansas City, other than the fact that Karen Pletz was on the board at Starlight Theatre at the time the donation was given. Conflict of interest? I think so.
***Please check the archives of the Kansas City Star for the article dated October 22, 2006 which confirms this****

5) Darin Haug is currently only 2 years of of his residency. Thus, his "qualifications" are those you find on many medical student/resident CVs. Outrageous and embarassing are two descriptors for the recent decision to appoint his as dean to replace the impressively qualified previous Dean, Dr. Sandra Willsie. Below is a quote from the memo sent to students on May 1, 2008 giving us a list of meaningless, BS "qualifications" that somehow make him qualified to academically lead not only students but also faculty (many of whom have FAR more experience and MANY more qualifications for this job than he).

"In August, 1997 he entered KCUMB's College of Osteopathic Medicine where he rose yet again to leadership, first as a class Senator and then, in 1998,
to Student Senate President, serving as a Missouri delegate to the AOA
House of Delegates, 1998 and 1999, on the original KCUMB NCA Self
Evaluation Steering Committee; on the Genesis 2000 Curriculum
Project, on the CQI Course Evaluation Task Force and as Missouri's
student representative to the AOA Unity Summit in 1999."​

Interesting....

 

[bobg504]

Can't let my identity be known (need to graduate first), but I look forward to seeing you at graduation. Take care.

Perhaps you may have more insight regarding the inner-workings of the administration than I. I tried to keep a relatively low profile, lol.

 

[surgeryguru]

Perhaps you may have more insight regarding the inner-workings of the administration than I. I tried to keep a relatively low profile, lol.

That's probably the best way to approach things, especially at KCUMB. I just couldn't stand the bull-**** any more.

Perhaps after graduation, I will reveal my identity. We'll see. 😉

 

[endocardium]

5) Darin Haug is currently only 2 years of of his residency. Thus, his "qualifications" are those you find on many medical student/resident CVs. Outrageous and embarassing are two descriptors for the recent decision to appoint his as dean to replace the impressively qualified previous Dean, Dr. Sandra Willsie. Below is a quote from the memo sent to students on May 1, 2008 giving us a list of meaningless, BS "qualifications" that somehow make him qualified to academically lead not only students but also faculty (many of whom have FAR more experience and MANY more qualifications for this job than he).

"In August, 1997 he entered KCUMB's College of Osteopathic Medicine where he rose yet again to leadership, first as a class Senator and then, in 1998,
to Student Senate President, serving as a Missouri delegate to the AOA
House of Delegates, 1998 and 1999, on the original KCUMB NCA Self
Evaluation Steering Committee; on the Genesis 2000 Curriculum
Project, on the CQI Course Evaluation Task Force and as Missouri's
student representative to the AOA Unity Summit in 1999."​

Yeah, it's absolutely embarrassing. I can't believe this is happening. I was floored when I first heard of it. They should have just kept Oelklaus in the driver's seat. I'd say that he's more qualified than this new guy. I don't understand why they didn't choose someone more qualified for the position. Whatever. 👎

And I agree with what was said in one of the posts above... The staff is stretched really thin and completely overworked.

 

[surgeryguru]

Yeah, it's absolutely embarrassing. I can't believe this is happening. I was floored when I first heard of it. They should have just kept Oelklaus in the driver's seat. I'd say that he's more qualified than this new guy. Whatever. 👎

Agreed! Many of the good ones we have/had (Maureen Dudgeon, Jacqueline Marinac, Sandra Willsie, Lori Boyajian, David Dyck) are hitting the road out of frustration...only to be replaced by unexperienced "favorites" of Pletz, like Darin Haug. F-ing unbelievable.

 

[endocardium]

Agreed! Many of the good ones we have/had (Maureen Dudgeon, Jacqueline Marinac, Sandra Willsie, Lori Boyajian, David Dyck) are hitting the road out of frustration...only to be replaced by unexperienced "favorites" of Pletz, like Darin Haug. F-ing unbelievable.

I know; it's sad. 🙁 I heard it's gonna get worse, too... I hate to see this happening. It's not going to effect us that much, but I really fear for the incoming 1st years...

Stay sharp, kids. Come in with your eyes open and keep them open. Take charge of your education. Good luck.

 

[surgeryguru]

To endocardium:

I've been reading your posts for a while and agree with much of what you say! If you have any inclination to let me know who you are (I am very curious), send me a personal message.

I will share my identity after graduation, but not before. The KCUMB crazies might get me.

Thanks.

 

[surgeryguru]

I know; it's sad. 🙁 I heard it's gonna get worse, too... I hate to see this happening. It's not going to effect us that much, but I really fear for the incoming 1st years...

Yes, yes, and yes! The shame of it is that people like you and I are so disenchanted with KCUMB that it's going to be hard to stand behind them in the future. I can't speak for you, but my $$$ are without question going elseware until Karen Pletz is off her throne of power. It is reprehensible for me to even think of supporting her cause.

 

[endocardium]

Yes, yes, and yes! The shame of it is that people like you and I are so disenchanted with KCUMB that it's going to be hard to stand behind them in the future. I can't speak for you, but my $$$ are without question going elseware until Karen Pletz is off her throne of power. It is reprehensible for me to even think of supporting her cause.

Interesting. I was just having this same conversation with others. Yeah, that's what I think, too. I don't think I could live with myself to support her cause. I wish there were some kind of accountability for what is happening. Sometimes, I wish I didn't know the things that I do.

 

[surgeryguru]

I wish there were some kind of accountability for what is happening.

I firmly believe that a day of reckoning is coming. I'll end my day on that happy thought.

Cheers to yours and my future, endocardium! We made it.

 

[aminoacid]

I would be really curious to know who this person is. As a former member of the KCUMB Class of 2008, I will be the first to say our school is not perfert, however, no institution of higher learning, including most allopathic medical schools are perfect either. The above poster has brought up some valid points, however, they seem vailed in negativity and frustration. I believe that alot of medical eduction is WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT! I came to KCUMB with the goal of getting the best education I could. I feel that I learned just as much during the "basic science years" as all my friends attending allopathic medical schools. I have scored WELL above average on both the USMLE and COMLEX exams. While support services and teaching are important, medical school is not the time for hand-holding. I felt that during the basic science years, KCUMB did an excellent job with that.

Regarding clinical education during the 3rd year: I do believe that there may be some variation between core sites, but the OCCE Dept tries to ensure that students have a proper experience. After finishing my 3rd year, I felt as comfortable as my allopathic counter parts examing and interviewing patients and developing both differential diagnosies and treatments. I can tell you that I know MANY students who attend allopathic institutions that have had bad clinical experiences, so I believe that it is all relative.

In order for ANY medical student to acquire a "top residency" (not sure what your definition of "top" is) they must work hard to achieve excellence in both academics and extracurricular activities. While KCUMB may not afford many opportunities concerning research, they are VERY supportive of students who seek such opportunities elsewhere I did research in cardiovascular diseases during the summer between my 1st and 2nd years at Mayo Clinic Rochester, MN

Regarding mentorship: While KCUMB may not have mentors working in the discipline you wish to practice, I personally dont think it is thier responsibility to "hand you a mentor". If a student is intent on success, they should seek out mentors.

KCUMB has always been amiable to suggestions regarding improvements in how things are done. I have seen them "go after" people. However, the people they "went after" did not address their issues in a profesional manner. I think in the end it's all about respect.

In conclusion, all medical schools have issues. I believe that the mindset of each medical student determines how they will react to these issues. I feel that KCUMB has afforded me a quality medical education and has facilitated my interest outside its institution. I have completed a summer research fellowship at Mayo following 1st year. Following completion of my 3rd year (June 07), I took a year off to persue a competitive fellowship in clinical research at Mayo Clinic Rochester and will be completing it this month. I have published several case reports and peer-review articles (first author) as well during medical school. I have stated all the above, not to brag, but to illustrate that KCUMB has been supportive and that KCUMB is WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT! I hope this post helps!

I agree with you about the basic science yrs, but with the mass exodus of teaching staff, I'm not the best person to comment on this one at this stage.

Yes, I agree with you, they are amiable to suggestions. Being amiable does not mean they are necessarily proactive about resolving the issue for the better (i.e., certain professors teaching certain subjects that other professors have a stronger knowledge of, Score One right before a test, no uniformity between core sites). It just depends on the issue in question.

Just curious, how do you define "bad clinical experience?" I think there is a big difference between a malignant attending and one who does not care to teach (or show up or goes on a 2 week vacation during your 4 week rotation). I think there is a big difference between being in a hospital where you have the autonomy to manage patients and learn from other staff versus not being allowed to do anything in the hospital, but wander the halls and hope that someone will let you watch them. How much more proactive can you get before you tick someone off and it gets back to the school? After all, they do tell students that we have to abide by the rules of the core site and the preceptors. Seek out mentors in this situation? There is a fine line there, as it could be construed as "practicing medicine without a license." The best route in this situation: spend 4th yr at a place that will teach you (which is what many students did).

I agree with you re: medical school and hand-holding. I do not think anyone is expecting hand-holding, but for the amount of money that you pay, you expect a certain amount of service (of course if you're one of the few whose education the school is subsidizing, you may have a different perspective). Nothing is wrong with seeking out mentors on your own, but what is wrong with the school providing this service? It seems that it would be in their best interest for future alumni recruitment.

Fine you did research, published, and did a fellowship. Nothing is wrong with that. But what I'm inferring is that you're assuming that everyone should follow your path and think like you (my apologies in advance if I'm misinterpreting your post). Many people may not be interested in research or publications. Many people may just want to practice medicine. For the amount of money they will pay, what is wrong with expecting a certain level of service in return to make them feel comfortable about their proficiency as future physicians? At the end of the day this is a business transaction and med students want to be satisfied customers.

It's great that you chose your core site well, but your experience is not everyone's experience. There should not be variation in core sites; the education during the last 2 yrs should be just a uniform as the education during the 1st 2 yrs. But as long as preceptors work for free, there will be variation in the clinical education students receive. This is an inherent flaw in the preceptor-based educational model.

I agree with you about the OCCE. They are great. But let's be realistic: they can only do so much because the final decisions are made by the administration. Also, the staff is small (about 5) and they have close to 500 students to deal with per year. They are overworked. I know you have not done 4th yr yet, but rotations get cancelled all the time. You may find out with little notice and find yourself scrambling at the last minute for a rotation. They will not tell you this; you have to stay on top of this with your rotation site. After all, OCCE will not "hold your hand" through this process (just some heads up if you weren't aware of this already). This occurs even when you do things months in advance.

I agree: med school is what you make of it, just as anything else in life. It's just easier to roll with the punches if you have some heads up on what you're getting into. It's a given that it will be challenging. It's not a given that your service provider may present you with additional obstacles. Some of us were completely blindsided by our experiences at KCUMB; I'm glad you were not.

Good luck with your 4th year.

 

[bobg504]

Agreed! Many of the good ones we have/had (Maureen Dudgeon, Jacqueline Marinac, Sandra Willsie, Lori Boyajian, David Dyck) are hitting the road out of frustration...only to be replaced by unexperienced "favorites" of Pletz, like Darin Haug. F-ing unbelievable.

You know, it seems like once you leave KCUMB for rotations, you are sort of "out of the loop." Its kinda like you only have contact with your student administrator. I had heard about Dr. Dudgeon and Dr Willsie, however, I HAD NO IDEA Dr. Boyajian and Dyck were leaving as well. It's unfortunate, because they are both great people and physicians.

 

[bobg504]

I agree with you about the basic science yrs, but with the mass exodus of teaching staff, I'm not the best person to comment on this one at this stage.

Yes, I agree with you, they are amiable to suggestions. Being amiable does not mean they are necessarily proactive about resolving the issue for the better (i.e., certain professors teaching certain subjects that other professors have a stronger knowledge of, Score One right before a test, no uniformity between core sites). It just depends on the issue in question.

Just curious, how do you define "bad clinical experience?" I think there is a big difference between a malignant attending and one who does not care to teach (or show up or goes on a 2 week vacation during your 4 week rotation). I think there is a big difference between being in a hospital where you have the autonomy to manage patients and learn from other staff versus not being allowed to do anything in the hospital, but wander the halls and hope that someone will let you watch them. How much more proactive can you get before you tick someone off and it gets back to the school? After all, they do tell students that we have to abide by the rules of the core site and the preceptors. Seek out mentors in this situation? There is a fine line there, as it could be construed as "practicing medicine without a license." The best route in this situation: spend 4th yr at a place that will teach you (which is what many students did).

I agree with you re: medical school and hand-holding. I do not think anyone is expecting hand-holding, but for the amount of money that you pay, you expect a certain amount of service (of course if the school is subsidizing your education, you may have a different perspective). Nothing is wrong with seeking out mentors on your own, but what is wrong with the school providing this service? It seems that it would be in their best interest for future alumni recruitment.

Fine you did research, published, and did a fellowship. Nothing is wrong with that. But what I'm inferring is that you're assuming that everyone should follow your path and think like you. Many people may not be interested in research or publications. Many people may just want to practice medicine. For the amount of money they will pay, what is wrong with expecting a certain level of service in return to make them feel comfortable about their proficiency as future physicians? At the end of the day this is a business transaction and med students want to be satisfied customers.

It's great that you chose your core site well, but your experience is not everyone's experience. There should not be variation in core sites; the education during the last 2 yrs should be just a uniform as the education during the 1st 2 yrs. But as long as preceptors work for free, there will be variation in the clinical education students receive. This is an inherent flaw in the preceptor-based educational model.

I agree with you about the OCCE. They are great. But let's be realistic: they can only do so much because the final decisions are made by the administration. Also, the staff is small (about 5) and they have close to 500 students to deal with per year. They are overworked. I know you have not done 4th yr yet, but rotations get cancelled all the time. You may find out with little notice and find yourself scrambling at the last minute for a rotation. They will not tell you this; you have to stay on top of this with your rotation site. After all, OCCE will not "hold your hand" through this process (just some heads up if you weren't aware of this already). This occurs even when you do things months in advance.

I agree: med school is what you make of it, just as anything else in life. It's just easier to roll with the punches if you have some heads up on what you're getting into. It's a given that it will be challenging. It's not a given that your service provider may present you with additional obstacles. Some of us were completely blindsided by our experiences at KCUMB; I'm glad you were not.

Good luck with your 4th year.

You know, I actually agree with your sentiments; however, I understand perfectly that the majority of medical students are not remotely interested in a path similar to mine. I just used it as an example. I also just thought about the fact that new student's experiences will be alot different with all the new facilty that have come aboard.

Regarding your 3rd year experiences: that is quite unfortunate and I most definately understand your frustration. I had great preceptors and was in a hospital that was equipped to handle medical students (they have numerous residencies). Again, I do think that KCUMB has a responsibility to ensure that years 3 and 4 are just as uniform as years 1 and 2. With that, you are completely on the mark regarding your concerns. I was simply giving my take on things. I am by no means giving KCUMB a "get out of jail free card." There are issues. I hope that clarifies my perspective.

 

[aminoacid]

Bobg504,

I'm not necessarily referring to my experiences. My larger point is that most of the sites have "hit and miss" preceptors (some more than others) as gathered from conversations with classmates; your site sounds like it did not. IMHO, this is not a conversation anyone should be having with classmates because our training should be uniform. For example, there is absolutely no reason for any DO student to be in stressed about the Comlex PE because they were at a site that did not mention OMT, let alone teach it for an entire year. Practice on someone? Again, that fine line of "practicing medicine without a license, especially if the OMT is not done properly. Yet, this is the reality for many in our class. Differential diagnosis? Depends on the site. Treatment plan? Depends on the site. Panel of patients to manage? Depends on the site.

When evaluating these sites, most people will say positive things because they: 1) may be concerned about retribution or 2) do not have any other frame of reference until 4th yr. Again, when you pay your staff to teach full-time, you do not have these issues. FYI, some of the stronger programs (regardless of specialty) want letters of recommendation from full-time faculty who taught you during your core clerkships. Preceptors are considered adjunct faculty.

 

[endocardium]

I firmly believe that a day of reckoning is coming. I'll end my day on that happy thought.

Cheers to yours and my future, endocardium! We made it.

Congratulations, Doctor! 👍

 

[Jape]

i have a question, i was told by a friend that students at kcumb have the choice to rotate using KU Meds preceptor sites, is this true?

 

[DiverDoc]

i have a question, i was told by a friend that students at kcumb have the choice to rotate using KU Meds preceptor sites, is this true?

Heres what I know, (validity unknown) While there are some who stay in KC for rotations, some are affiliate sites with KU MED and others not, (e.g. Via Christi in Wichita) But at KU, there is simply not enough space, this is why they send at least a 1/3 of their students interested in primary care to Wichita

 

[RingJ7303]

Has anyone received info about computer specifications yet? I think I'll be needing a new one (PC), but have no idea what to be looking at. 😕 Any help would be much appreciated!

If you call FinAid, they will fax or mail a sheet with the minimum specs for laptops and desktops. Laptops are recommended for 3rd and 4th years. Since only one student loan adjustment can be made to cover the cost of a new computer, I would suggest a laptop. I've heard good things from several people about the MacBook Pro, but I'm not techie. A friend who is, though, mentioned that Macs rarely have a problem with viruses and spyware. The min spec sheet also advises spyware removal software for Windows but not Macs. However, KCUMB has less tech support for Macs.

 

[Luke4202]

I heard that KCUMB has a one year Masters program where getting a 3.5 will automatically get you into the Osteopathic Program. I tried looking on the site for information on this, but couldn't find anything. Just wondering if there's any truth to this.

Yeah, this program is in the college of biosciences. The degree is a masters of biosciences. What you heard was correct except you must maintain a 3.0 in order to graduate. As long as you graduate you are accepted to the following year's COM class. Even though its only a 3.0 be aware that the course work is pretty rigorous. I don't think anyone managed a 4.0 first semester, but only 2 of 25 failed out so its definately doable.

 

[PokerDoc]

i certainly respect the opinions of the upperclassmen posting on here and I believe their concerns are valid.. But having talked to about 7 or 8 current KCUMB students, 3 of whom ARE ambassadors I will admit, i've come to the conclusion that these events that have transpired are black marks, however, the extent to which they are impacting the typical students education are being a bit exaggerated in this thread.

 

[aminoacid]

i certainly respect the opinions of the upperclassmen posting on here and I believe their concerns are valid.. But having talked to about 7 or 8 current KCUMB students, 3 of whom ARE ambassadors I will admit, i've come to the conclusion that these events that have transpired are black marks, however, the extent to which they are impacting the typical students education are being a bit exaggerated in this thread.

If you say so. 🙄

 

[surgeryguru]

i certainly respect the opinions of the upperclassmen posting on here and I believe their concerns are valid.. But having talked to about 7 or 8 current KCUMB students, 3 of whom ARE ambassadors I will admit, i've come to the conclusion that these events that have transpired are black marks, however, the extent to which they are impacting the typical students education are being a bit exaggerated in this thread.

None of us are on here trying to waste your time. It's your perogative to ignore us (the "upperclassmen"), but I wouldn't recommend being that oblivious. Keep your eyes and ears open. You'll see what we're talking about.

 

[endocardium]

PokerDoc, I remember having the very same attitude before I started school. Nobody could tell me anything remotely negative about the school, mostly because I was just happy to be attending one. At that point in time, I was definitely viewing KCUMB through a filter. Therefore, I really cannot fault you for thinking the way that you do. However, there are some upperclassman on here presenting a different view, for no other purpose than to inform you (there are better things to do than write these posts). I know it's hard to de-romanticize the whole thing, especially at this stage, but I highly recommend coming in with your eyes open and to keep them open during your time at KCUMB.

 

[Cale]

PokerDoc, I remember having the very same attitude before I started school. Nobody could tell me anything remotely negative about the school, mostly because I was just happy to be attending one. At that point in time, I was definitely viewing KCUMB through a filter. Therefore, I really cannot fault you for thinking the way that you do. However, there are some upperclassman on here presenting a different view, for no other purpose than to inform you (there are better things to do than write these posts). I know it's hard to de-romanticize the whole thing, especially at this stage, but I highly recommend coming in with your eyes open and to keep them open during your time at KCUMB.

Endocardium and other upperclassmen, do you feel that these kind off issues can be found at other institutions? I'm from Missouri so my top two schools would be KCUMB and KCOM. The information your giving definitely makes me worry about the school, especially since you can't learn this until you've actually attended.

 

[endocardium]

Endocardium and other upperclassmen, do you feel that these kind off issues can be found at other institutions? I'm from Missouri so my top two schools would be KCUMB and KCOM. The information your giving definitely makes me worry about the school, especially since you can't learn this until you've actually attended.

Well, if I felt that these same issues could be found at most other institutions, I wouldn't be taking the time to write these posts. So, no, I feel that many of the issues disclosed here are endemic to KCUMB, especially in regard to the administration. Of course, that being said, one has to realize that some issues, such as how rotations are handled, are found at other institutions. You really need to ask hard questions about rotations when you are looking at what schools to attend.

 

[aminoacid]

Endocardium and other upperclassmen, do you feel that these kind off issues can be found at other institutions? I'm from Missouri so my top two schools would be KCUMB and KCOM. The information your giving definitely makes me worry about the school, especially since you can't learn this until you've actually attended.

Let's see . . .
1st 2 yrs-massive hemorrhaging of faculty (I was still not deterred because I study quite well on my own.) I can say that KCUMB has lost a double digit # of faculty (teaching staff only) in the past few yrs (off hand, I can think of 11). Also, faculty teching subjects they have limited knowledge of (one lecturer had 9 people show up out of almost 250-need I say more?)
3rd & 4th yr-see my previous posts

If you don't take anything else away from these posts, just remember this: 3rd yr will MAKE OR BREAK your medical education. THIS IS WHERE IT COUNTS!!!!!!! Imagine having PRECEPTORS say, "I don't know why your school even sends people here." (Notice, preceptors is PLURAL; spoken at more than one location/site). Again, this is an administrative issue, not an OCCE issue. (OCCE is )aware of these things and would dump these places in a heartbeat if they had the final say.)

Seriously though, what is wrong with a medical school assuring that all students will receive an equal education, especially since this will set you back at least 200k. Remember, 3rd & 4th yrs, preceptors ARE NOT PAID. So, what ARE you paying for?

Again, I only recommend that you go in knowing what you are getting into. Good luck.

 

[PokerDoc]

is there some kind of student feedback from all the various sites from the previous years rotations at the OCCE office?

 

[spicedmanna]

is there some kind of student feedback from all the various sites from the previous years rotations at the OCCE office?

I don't know if they have the kind of information you are looking for. When I get a chance, I'll stop by the OCCE office and ask if they make student feedback available, when you are choosing sites for the lottery.

 

[deadeyedk]

i must say that i am very excited to see the discussion of these topics become more civil and constructive.

the lack of civility in previous posts certainly made some of us turn a blind eye and assume that the critics were just disgruntled (i know i did this). i, for one, am really trying to soak all of this in now, in an attempt to make the best decision.

i still think kcumb would be a good fit for me, but these issues do make me think twice about drinking the kool-aid as it were.

thank you guys so much for taking the time to inform us about these issues and allowing us to discuss the merits of each point. keep in mind that we lowly pre-meds are trusting you guys to provide constructive criticism, not rant against the school for reasons that are largely personal. on many topics you guys are basically our only source of info.

keep up the good work, and good luck to everybody.

 

[deadeyedk]

do any of you current students know anyone who is currently rotating at st. anthony hospital in oklahoma city?

i am working in the their surgery dept right now, and i think i've run into a couple of kcumb students (i'm really not sure, i didn't want to bug them while they were trying to appease their surgeons). i contacted the person on the affiliated training site list from the kcumb website, but she just re-directed me to the school.

if any of you know a student currently rotating there and think they wouldn't mind talking to me for a few minutes, please shoot me a PM and let me know.

thanks. again.

 

[aminoacid]

is there some kind of student feedback from all the various sites from the previous years rotations at the OCCE office?

Sure, there's feedback. But what does that mean?
1) People may be afraid of retribution, so the feedback may not be brutally honest, or may not be honest at all ("Professionalism" 1st and foremost).
2) People may think their experiences were great compared to what they have been exposed to.
3) People may be apathetic and may not elaborate.
4) People may have decided to risk it with brutally honest answers (very risky b/c there's a fine line between criticism and lack of "professionalism"-lack of "professionalism" has gotten people into trouble). These evaluations may or may not be included.

The best way for potential students to find out about a core site is for the school to set up a completely anonymous system that allows current students to converse with potential students. Current students would be more likely to be brutally honest if they could be assured of no threat of retaliation.

With this being said, the next best thing is to go to the OCCE and ask to read student evaluations of sites. If nothing else, it is a good starting point.

 

[PokerDoc]

what kind of lack of professionalism gets people in to what kind of trouble

 

[endocardium]

what kind of lack of professionalism gets people in to what kind of trouble

Sometimes for looking the wrong way. Seriously. I don't know. Lots of things. I don't want to repeat some the rediculous things I've heard people be reported for. The professionalism office and the administration love to stay in control and to monitor things. You sometimes feel like they are looming over your shoulder. The control that you feel sometimes makes you think you are back in grade school. The school likes to use ultimatums as a method of control.

Anyway, it's not that bad, as long as you stay clear of the professionalism trip wire and stay under their radar. You'll be fine.

 

[deadeyedk]

endo,

that response seems pretty vague. school as "big brother"... school as "control freak"... what do those things translate to in real life?

what types of things have people been busted for? we have no frame of reference here... the way you explain it, it seems like you might get called into the professionalism office for wearing shoes that are too "colorful" or dropping an f-bomb to a friend on campus or criticizing anyone for anything or all of the above.

let's hear specifics, people. i'm getting more and more curious now.

 

[endocardium]

endo,

that response seems pretty vague. school as "big brother"... school as "control freak"... what do those things translate to in real life?

what types of things have people been busted for? we have no frame of reference here... the way you explain it, it seems like you might get called into the professionalism office for wearing shoes that are too "colorful" or dropping an f-bomb to a friend on campus or criticizing anyone for anything or all of the above.

let's hear specifics, people. i'm getting more and more curious now.

You are putting me on the spot now. I'm being vague on purpose. It's hard for me to give actual examples, because I don't want to get colleagues into any more trouble than they were in. I don't know who monitors this thread, so I am trying to stay anonymous and I don't want to hurt anybody I know.

Suffice it to say that your examples are not far from some actual things that happened. For example, let's say that you go around and happen to brood a lot, because that's just your personality. Well, they take notes on this kind of thing. Let's say that a certain professor doesn't like your brooding and reports you to the professionalism office. Well, the next day, you are going to get an email inviting you to the professionalism office for a chat about it. Let's say that you are at an evening party event, sponsored by the student government. You have someone there from the professionalism office monitoring and controlling the scene. Let's say you feel like talking to friends, but there is some other event going on in the same facility that they want you to attend. You get not so subtle nudges urging you to attend the silly event, even though technically, you are on your own time. You get the point. There are legitimate causes for professionalism office action, but these kinds of things are clearly not.

I've never had trouble with the professionalism office, thank goodness. But you do feel their presence around you. It's not that bad. You get used to it. It's kind of like being in the military to some extent. You learn how to navigate it and then it ceases to become a concern. Every once in a while you realize that you are still being watched and controlled. Some people are comfortable with this sort of thing, but I am not. However, you do get busy enough where you don't think about it.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I know I'm derailing a really long discussion, here, but if any of you aren't familiar with KC, I'd be happy to show you around if you can come into town before I leave for Arkansas in early August. As you know, KCUMB's location...isn't exactly ideal, so you might not get a good feel for the town for awhile if you're stuck around the school all the time. Feel free to message me.

 

[aminoacid]

Re:"professionalism"

IMHO, a very good thing because physicians should behave in a moral and ethical manner. But, the behaviors that are considered "professional," are subjective, thus "professionalism" has the potential to be abused.

Consequenses ranges from putting yourself on the radar to different degrees of disciplinary consequences. All students are required to have a Dean's Letter(MSPE) as part of the residency application, so if this results on a disciplinary consequence, this could appear on the MSPE. If this does appear on the MSPE, it could be bigger problem beyond medical school.