Lawyer forum

[BLADEMDA]

This is your pure opinion based on whatever limited, narrow social interaction or understanding you have of racism as a middle aged conservative white man in America and certainly not based on any actual data about employment opportunities, housing, poverty, education, or criminal justice.

Disparities in outcomes didn’t prove racism. There are many causes for these disparities and I concede race is factor but not the main factor or the only factor. Instead, education and the family structure are the main causes behind these disparities.

I can cite examples personally from people I have spoken with from the ghetto/inner city. Racism isn’t the cause for black on black murder. Racism isn’t the cause for why black children don’t have fathers. Racism doesn’t cause kids to drop out of high school leading to a life of crime.

We can work towards a better society without pulling out the race card every single time there is a disparity in outcome.

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[vector2]

Disparities in outcomes didn’t prove racism. There are many causes for these disparities and I concede race is factor but not the main factor or the only factor. Instead, education and the family structure are the main causes behind these disparities.

I can cite examples personally from people I have spoken with from the ghetto/inner city. Racism isn’t the cause for black on black murder. Racism isn’t the cause for why black children don’t have fathers. Racism doesn’t cause kids to drop out of high school leading to a life of crime.

We can work towards a better society without pulling out the race card every single time there is a disparity in outcome.

You can cite examples? Can't believe people still trying to use "well I have a black friend who says..." anecdotes to support their ridiculous positions

And no one said racism was the only factor, but you are saying repeatedly and forcefully that systemic racism definitely doesn't exist when just in the category of the criminal justice there are a dozen studies demonstrating that black people have gotten longer sentences and the death penalty at statistically higher rates for the same crimes.

As far as crime, single parent households and education, these things are tied intimately to economic opportunity, but it's not like you bring up the systemically racist policy of redlining:

"During the heyday of redlining, the areas most frequently discriminated against were black inner city neighborhoods. For example, in Atlanta in the 1980s, a Pulitzer Prize-winning series of articles by investigative reporter Bill Dedman showed that banks would often lend to lower-income whites but not to middle-income or upper-income blacks.
...
A 2017 study by Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago economists found that the practice of redlining—the practice whereby banks discriminated against the inhabitants of certain neighborhoods—had a persistent adverse impact on the neighborhoods, with redlining affecting homeownership rates, home values and credit scores in 2010.[42][43] Since many African-Americans could not access conventional home loans, they had to turn to predatory lenders (who charged high interest rates).[43] Due to lower home ownership rates, slumlords were able to rent out apartments that would otherwise be owned.[43]

Redlining - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

"

There are deep, problematic, obvious examples of systemic racism, which since Jim Crow have been the main societal factor driving these disparities. Your head just has to be removed from the sand to see them.

 

[nimbus]

More systemic racism

 

[dhb]

At the end of the day, you know it, I know it, and the employers know it- certain names are not getting called back by certain employers because of assumptions made about the color of their skin, which is essentially the definition of institutional racism

Ok so what would you say to the employer/homeowner/recruiter... that has had several negative expirences with certain subsets of people (any color) and therefore choses to avoid having to deal with them.
Is it racist to hedge your bet?
In your ideal it's probably fine if others suffer the consequences.
If i'm a racist for selecting people for my rentals that's fine it's my money on the line.

 

[vector2]

Ok so what would you say to the employer/homeowner/recruiter... that has had several negative expirences with certain subsets of people (any color) and therefore choses to avoid having to deal with them.
Is it racist to hedge your bet?
In your ideal it's probably fine if others suffer the consequences.
If i'm a racist for selecting people for my rentals that's fine it's my money on the line.

The studies in question have the exact same resumes on the job application- the only thing that differs is the blackness of the name.

 

[dhb]

The studies in question have the exact same resumes on the job application- the only thing that differs is the blackness of the name.

Ok but if i had to chose by name i know exactly which i would pick based on past experiences.

 

[vector2]

 

[vector2]

Ok but if i had to chose by name i know exactly which i would pick based on past experiences.

If you're discriminating against an otherwise qualified renter or lessee based on the presumed ethnicity or perceived race from their name then uhhh...yes that's racist.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Racism isn’t the cause for black on black murder. Racism isn’t the cause for why black children don’t have fathers. Racism doesn’t cause kids to drop out of high school leading to a life of crime.

Sorry but this isn’t true. The black community is still dealing with the rampant racism in housing, education, etc that was so open and widespread over half a century ago. Even if all racism was suddenly gone now, there would still be these things for a while because of the handicaps and disenfranchisement of the black community (that very heavily crossed party lines by the way).

I don’t agree that America is a super racist country anymore, though there is still systemic racism. But even if I did agree that there is no racism here anymore, the racism that existed years ago is still hurting people of color.

 

[dhb]

If you're discriminating against an otherwise qualified renter or lessee based on the presumed ethnicity or perceived race from their name then uhhh...yes that's racist.

Well being racist gives me less headaches running after the rent or fixing broken proprety...

 

[deleted162650]

Well being racist gives me less headaches running after the rent or fixing broken proprety...

Just say you’re prejudiced, not racist. Has a better ring to it.

 

[dhb]

Just say you’re prejudiced, not racist. Has a better ring to it.

What i'm getting to is that everybody is racist when their interests are at stake.
@vestor2 do you think a RnB/Hiphop music producer is going to (hypothetically) look at a resume and chose Cody over DeAndre?

 

[deleted162650]

What i'm getting to is that everybody is racist when their interests are at stake.
@vestor2 do you think a RnB/Hiphop music producer is going to (hypothetically) look at a resume and chose Cody over DeAndre?

Worked out for Dr Dre

 

[chocomorsel]

So is it bias against the name or the skin color/ethnicity?

For example, a dark skinned man named George Smith May get many more call backs and interviews than an African sounding name. But, if the same person gets the job then is this truly racism? For decades people who came to America made an effort to adopt this culture and leave the old one behind. The melting pot was working as intended. These days SJW expect employers and everyday Americans to bend over backwards to be PC. Employers want employees that fit into our culture and our system. So, I have no doubt those who choose standard American names even if they are just Nick names will be better received than those who retain very foreign names.

“Your culture”, “Your system”? Seriously?
Because you didn’t come here and forcefully take this land from the natives and decide to make “your culture” and “your system” superior to theirs?
Spoken like a true closed minded White man.

This land is not “yours”. It’s everyone’s.

More specifically it’s the Native Americans‘ who now live in squalor because of like minded people as you.

No one should try to fit into “your culture and system” simply because you believe it is superior to everyone else’s.

Simply because White people control the economy here, you feel us “others” should choose American sounding names. So that we can fit in better. I am gonna keep loudly correcting Americans who act like they can’t pronounce my name each and every day no matter how uncomfortable it makes them feel.

Give me a break.

Because when it comes to paying people who don’t fit in peanuts to assist in US customer service and other jobs shifted overseas to save money, those “others” sure seem to fit in just fine.

 

[vector2]

Well being racist gives me less headaches running after the rent or fixing broken proprety...

Thanks for saying the thing out loud that we know so many people in power are thinking when it comes to making employment, housing, education, and finance decisions regarding people of color. Blade wouldn't so easily be able to say "well only 5%" are racist or feed us nonsense about how everyone is getting judged only on their individual merits if more people had your courage to speak out about their racist or implicit biases.

 

[vector2]

What i'm getting to is that everybody is racist when their interests are at stake.
@vestor2 do you think a RnB/Hiphop music producer is going to (hypothetically) look at a resume and chose Cody over DeAndre?

If some producer went with DeAndre over Cody without even hearing an audition because they think DeAndre is black and Cody is white, then yes, that is racist. It's also really stupid because there's a guy named Marshall Mathers who has made the industry billions of dollars.

 

[chocomorsel]

Ok so what would you say to the employer/homeowner/recruiter... that has had several negative expirences with certain subsets of people (any color) and therefore choses to avoid having to deal with them.
Is it racist to hedge your bet?
In your ideal it's probably fine if others suffer the consequences.
If i'm a racist for selecting people for my rentals that's fine it's my money on the line.

What “subsets” of people?

You mean like my previous landlord who was rude as hell to me when she first met me, but then forgot about meeting me. I then talked to her on the phone and she was super nice to me since I sound “White” and she’d forgotten about me from months earlier at the other house?

And then rented to me via phone and email never had any problems with me as I paid my rent on time every month?

And who actually refunded my deposit when I moved out because I didn’t destroy the house?

Yeah, that heifer initially didn’t want to work with me because of what I looked like and where I was looking was not the “black” part of town. You know, the poor, segregated part of town where most black people in town live.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Worked out for Dr Dre

[asked if he thought that Eminem's being white would affect his being signed by Dre's record label Aftermath] I don't care if he's purple, as long as he can rap!

 

[chocomorsel]

Well being racist gives me less headaches running after the rent or fixing broken proprety...

Well, my previous response was actually written before I even saw this post.

Well, let’s all be open about our racism. I have always preferred the open racists anyway, not the closeted bigots and their “I have a black friend so I can’t be racist”.
Thank you for your honesty.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

“Your culture”, “Your system”? Seriously?
Because you didn’t come here and forcefully take this land from the natives and decide to make “your culture” and “your system” superior to theirs?
Spoken like a true closed minded White man.

This land is not “yours”. It’s everyone’s.

More specifically it’s the Native Americans‘ who now live in squalor because of like minded people as you.

No one should try to fit into “your culture and system” simply because you believe it is superior to everyone else’s.

Simply because White people control the economy here, you feel us “others” should choose American sounding names. So that we can fit in better. I am gonna keep loudly correcting Americans who act like they can’t pronounce my name each and every day no matter how uncomfortable it makes them feel.

Give me a break.

Because when it comes to paying people who don’t fit in peanuts to assist in US customer service and other jobs shifted overseas to save money, those “others” sure seem to fit in just fine.

Good luck. I’ve met a disturbing amount of people who can’t even pronounce American sounding names correctly.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Well, my previous response was actually written before I even saw this post.

Well, let’s all be open about our racism. I have always preferred the open racists anyway, not the closeted bigots and their “I have a black friend so I can’t be racist”.
Thank you for your honesty.

Everyone has biases and prejudices. It’s human nature. Racism is learned though.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Everyone has biases and prejudices. It’s human nature. Racism is learned though.

Seems like this point is lost in the shuffle of taking sides on the matter.

 

[chocomorsel]

Good luck. I’ve met a disturbing amount of people who can’t even pronounce American sounding names correctly.

But it’s so hard. What are people learning in school?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

But it’s so hard. What are people learning in school?

Dude I don’t even know. I once saw someone mispronounce an extremely easy to say American AF name 27 days in a row while reading it off a piece of paper. And this was an educated, intelligent person.

 

[Neopolymath]

Dude I don’t even know. I once saw someone mispronounce an extremely easy to say American AF name 27 days in a row while reading it off a piece of paper. And this was an educated, intelligent person.

Are you sure this isn't the "a-a-ron" Key and Peele skit?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Are you sure this isn't the "a-a-ron" Key and Peele skit?

Haha it might as well have been, but it was a last name and they kept adding a letter onto the name that wasn’t there while literally reading it off the paper lol.

 

[doctalaughs]

What you guys are railing against and trying to desperately show in various studies is human nature- not systemic racism. There is a difference.

If I’m walking down the street and a group of teens is walking towards me there are LOTS of factors that decide if I cross to the other side - dress, behavior, number of people, speech — but also race. Because statistically black teens commit more crime.

Do I know that white or Asian teens also commit crime? Of course. Is race the only factor? Of course not.

if you want to call that racist - then fine. But it’s 100% human nature and will NEVER change even if we talk until we are blue in the face. If you think your brain doesn’t work like that, you are kidding yourself. People make quick decisions based on past experience and general perceived probabilities, right or wrong. The solution is to find a way so that statistically —as a society —we get to a point where certain groups commit less crime, have higher levels of education and more intact family units.

 

[vector2]

What you guys are railing against and trying to desperately show in various studies is human nature- not systemic racism. There is a difference.

If I’m walking down the street and a group of teens is walking towards me there are LOTS of factors that decide if I cross to the other side - dress, behavior, number of people, speech — but also race. Because statistically black teens commit more crime.

Do I know that white or Asian teens also commit crime? Of course. Is race the only factor? Of course not.

if you want to call that racist - then fine. But it’s 100% human nature and will NEVER change even if we talk until we are blue in the face. The solution is to find a way so that statistically —as a society —we get to a point where certain groups commit less crime, have higher levels of education and more intact family units.

@doctalaughs : "...as fairness needs to be judged on an individual, not group, basis"

also @doctalaughs: I go by group statistics when it's a bunch of black guys



I wonder if those fired Atlanta cops also go by those same stats

 

[doctalaughs]

@doctalaughs : "...as fairness needs to be judged on an individual, not group, basis"

also @doctalaughs: I go by group statistics when it's a bunch of black guys

We SHOULD try to judge on an individual basis.

It’s also inevitable that with lack of other information we DO judge, by human nature, by categorizing people in groups and bringing in prior experience with that group. It’s inevitable and no matter how much you virtue-signal on the internet— you do it too. Guaranteed. Doesn’t make you racist. It makes you a human (vs a robot).

That’s why I’m all for blinding people making decisions if possible. Resume reviews without names. Adcoms blinded to race. Perhaps even independent 2nd judges for sentencing without knowing race/color.

But you can’t have it both ways-stuff like affirmative action is basically legalized racism.

 

[Hork Bajir]

Well being racist gives me less headaches running after the rent or fixing broken proprety...

I quote directly from the SDN terms of service:
"Racism, sexism, heterosexism (homophobia), antisemitism and other ‘isms’ are not tolerated. We promote and celebrate diversity of people and ideas. Negative prejudgements purposely marginalize one group in an effort to establish a defined norm for another group; this kind of thinking is antithetical to the delivery of medical care. Treat everyone with dignity and respect. We are open to discussion of challenging topics, but we expect all members behave professionally and treat each other with dignity and respect."

An open, honest discussion about race is productive, and is allowed to be uncomfortable. But what we have right now is an anesthesiologist posting in a publicly available forum, defending the position that black people are by default bad tenants, and defending his/her personal right to continue discriminatory economic practices. If I was a premed and a person of color reading these forums, I would not feel welcome in this community. If I needed surgery, I would also worry that my white anesthesiologist thought less of me and wouldn't treat me the same way that he/she would a white patient. If @dhb is your anesthesiologist, that concern might be valid.

@pgg @Arch Guillotti obviously the mods in the anesthesia subforum have taken a more laissez faire approach, which is great- I appreciate the open and candid discussions on here, and all that you guys do. I do wonder though, if we really should be tolerating open and unapologetic racism of this sort.

And before Blade and whoever else starts crying about how I'm a social justice warrior, and this is an example of how people get fired for speaking their minds... We all (white people) have racist thoughts, ideas, and unfortunately actions. This is a fact, whether we see it and acknowledge it or not. Those racist tendencies are a product of the society and environment in which we were raised. Acknowledging that you have a racist thought doesn't make you a racist, or a bad person- but, being a good person does necessitate trying to identify those implicit biases and work on correcting them. Openly discussing those sorts of things, in the appropriate context - including a professional one- is 100% allowed (though it can be uncomfortable). Even short of trying to be a good person, though, a rational person has to accept that their actions have consequences. Making the sorts of statements that @dhb is making would, and should, get you fired from your workplace. Personally I think these comments should also not be tolerated in this forum, though I suppose that's up to the moderators to decide.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

[Southpaw]

@dhb is not an American and doesn’t live in America. And he confuses prejudice for racism in my opinion. He doesn’t understand the complexity of race in America.

 

[doctalaughs]

We all (white people) have racist thoughts, ideas, and unfortunately actions. This is a fact, whether we see it and acknowledge it or not. Those racist tendencies are a product of the society and environment in which we were raised.

Sorry- don’t buy this although I know it’s a popular thing to say recently.

I’m also not white.

Hopefully we don’t close this discussion because people are getting offended. Seems pretty civil overall to me.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Hopefully we don’t close this discussion because people are getting offended. Seems pretty civil overall to me.

It's staying open for now because it has by and large remained civil. Thanks.

 

[Hork Bajir]

@doctalaughs that disagreement is fine, and I’m more than open to that discussion. Nor am I advocating for this thread to be closed- I agree that, with the exception of dhb’s posts, the discourse has been civil.

FWIW I’m not “getting offended”. I’m just calling out blatant racism and unapologetic racism, which happens to violate the TOS as I understand it.

 

[vector2]

We SHOULD try to judge on an individual basis.

It’s also inevitable that with lack of other information we DO judge, by human nature, by categorizing people in groups and bringing in prior experience with that group. It’s inevitable and no matter how much you virtue-signal on the internet— you do it too. Guaranteed. Doesn’t make you racist. It makes you a human (vs a robot).

That’s why I’m all for blinding people making decisions if possible. Resume reviews without names. Adcoms blinded to race. Perhaps even independent 2nd judges for sentencing without knowing race/color.

But you can’t have it both ways-stuff like affirmative action is basically legalized racism.

I'm one of the first to admit that I along with everyone else am subject to numerous biases, and anyone who goes back through my old posts can see as much. What makes one a biased or bigoted or racist person isn't simply that one occasionally has biased thoughts- it's the failure to acknowledge them in yourself and the rest of society, and the failure to try and do better.

Furthermore, the distinction you're trying to make between "human nature" and "systemic racism" is a false one. That's explained simply by the fact that the "system" is comprised of human beings, and the system in this country created by white people got its start with slavery, the 3/5 compromise, civil war, and jim crow. Human beings, subject to all their various biases, both overt and implicit, created the discriminatory laws and policies whose legacy today is the continued systemic racism we see in education, employment, housing, finance, criminal justice, healthcare etc. That example of those cops who tased the unarmed college students in Atlanta? Great example of how individual cops' "human nature" operates within framework of systemically racist police departments.


Also, I'm still waiting for you to address the almost dozen criminal justice studies I posted showing black people get longer and/or more severe sentences such as the death penalty for similar crimes.

 

[chocomorsel]

@dhb is not an American and doesn’t live in America. And he confuses prejudice for racism in my opinion. He doesn’t understand the complexity of race in America.

Europeans can be racist too. What he’s describing is a very good definition of systemic racism. The racism that leads to unfair practices in employment, buying and leasing, loans, etc.
Look the man straight up said something quite racist about the tenants he allows in his properties. He’s being honest with himself.
Why the need to try and defend his racist actions?

 

[doctalaughs]

I'm one of the first to admit that I along with everyone else am subject to numerous biases, and anyone who goes back through my old posts can see as much. What makes one a biased or bigoted or racist person isn't simply that one occasionally has biased thoughts- it's the failure to acknowledge them in yourself and the rest of society, and the failure to try and do better.

Furthermore, the distinction you're trying to make between "human nature" and "systemic racism" is a false one. That's explained simply by the fact that the "system" is comprised of human beings, and the system in this country created by white people got its start with slavery, the 3/5 compromise, civil war, and jim crow. Human beings, subject to all their various biases, both overt and implicit, created the discriminatory laws and policies whose legacy today is the continued systemic racism we see in education, employment, housing, finance, criminal justice, healthcare etc.


Also, I'm still waiting for you to address the almost dozen criminal justice studies I posted showing black people get longer and/or more severe sentences such as the death penalty for similar crimes.

Perhaps we’re just defining racism differently. The problem is that racism is a loaded word (with potentially super-negative career, social, life-ruining consequences) and I don’t know why we insist on using it for what is REALLY human bias. Just polarizes the sides and makes things worse.

I’m happy to admit that these studies show human bias (by judges, housing etc). I wouldn’t go so far to say judge X who gave blacks 2 more years for the same crimes is a racist.

Racism is overt and purposeful. No matter how the left has tried to twist the definition recently, it should not be used that way.

We can correct BIAS by system change (for example, the solutions I proposed). Because human bias can not be changed as it’s hard-wired and trying to make people aware of this doesn’t help. Of course we all have bias, myself included.

Still gonna cross that street more for group of black men compared to group of white women. You aren’t racist (and sexist). And you are deluding yourself if you say “acknowledging” that bias will change your behavior. It won’t. There are 100x more effective solutions.

 

[vector2]

I’m happy to admit that these studies show human bias (by judges, housing etc). I wouldn’t go so far to say judge X who gave blacks 2 more years for the same crimes is a racist.

I would. Bias against someone because they're black and then giving them more time in prison or the even the death penalty because of that might as well be the the textbook definition of racism.

Racism is overt and purposeful. No matter how the left has tried to twist the definition recently, it should not be used that way.

Wrong. Racism doesn't just mean putting on your Klan hood on the way to a lynching. Racism infects individuals and societies in numerous ways, both subtle and overt. I hate to break it you, but not calling a qualified resume back for a job interview cause the name is Jamal, or you crossing the street because a black guy in a hoodie is walking your way are examples of racist behavior.

. And you are deluding yourself if you say acknowledging that bias will change your behavior.

1. You're wrong in your assertion that making people aware of implicit bias or training people about implicit bias has no positive effect. 2. I would rather acknowledge, try, and fail rather than bury my head in the sand and pretend everything is fine.

 

[doctalaughs]

I would. Bias against someone because they're black and then giving them more time in prison or the even the death penalty because of that might as well be the the textbook definition of racism.



Wrong. Racism doesn't just mean putting on your Klan hood on the way to a lynching. Racism infects individuals and societies in numerous ways, both subtle and overt. I hate to break it you, but not calling a qualified resume back for a job interview cause the name is Jamal, or you crossing the street because a black guy in a hoodie is walking your way are examples of racist behavior.



1. You're wrong in your assertion that making people aware of implicit bias or training people about implicit bias has no positive effect. 2. I would rather acknowledge, try, and fail rather than bury my head in the sand and pretend everything is fine.

sigh.... okay carry on thinking 50% of your fellow Americans are racists.

We’ll just continue to talk past each and going to useless implicit bias sessions and diversity meetings instead of addressing the root cause of some of these disparities...

 

[vector2]

sigh.... okay carry on thinking 50% of your fellow Americans are racists.

We’ll just continue to talk past each and going to useless implicit bias sessions and diversity meetings instead of addressing the root cause of some of these disparities...

"
Racism is both overt and covert. It takes two closely related forms: individual whites acting against individual blacks, and acts by the total white community against the black community. We call these individual racism and institutional racism.

The first consists of overt acts by individuals, which cause death, injury or the violent destruction of property. This type can be recorded by television cameras; it can frequently be observed in the process of commission. The second type is less overt, far more subtle, less identifiable in terms of specific individuals committing the acts. But it is no less destructive of human life.

The second type originates in the operation of established and respected forces in the society, and thus receives far less public condemnation than the first type. When white terrorists bomb a black church and kill five black children, that is an act of individual racism, widely deplored by most segments of the society. But when in that same city - Birmingham, Alabama - five hundred black babies die each year because of the lack of proper food, shelter and medical facilities, and thousands more are destroyed and maimed physically, emotionally and intellectually because of conditions of poverty and discrimination in the black community, that is a function of institutional racism.

When a black family moves into a home in a white neighborhood and is stoned, burned or routed out, they are victims of an overt act of individual racism which many people will condemn - at least in words. But it is institutional racism that keeps black people locked in dilapidated slum tenements, subject to the daily prey of exploitative slumlords, merchants, loan sharks and discriminatory real estate agents.

The society either pretends it does not know of this latter situation, or is in fact incapable of doing anything meaningful about it."

-Stokely Carmichael
------



We are still recording and seeing overt racism on our phones and TVs today, some of which is just as brutal as that seen in the 60s, but we want to live under the delusion that systemic or institutional racism somehow totally disappeared? I don't think so.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

An open, honest discussion about race is productive, and is allowed to be uncomfortable. But what we have right now is an anesthesiologist posting in a publicly available forum, defending the position that black people are by default bad tenants, and defending his/her personal right to continue discriminatory economic practices. If I was a premed and a person of color reading these forums, I would not feel welcome in this community. If I needed surgery, I would also worry that my white anesthesiologist thought less of me and wouldn't treat me the same way that he/she would a white patient. If @dhb is your anesthesiologist, that concern might be valid.

@pgg @Arch Guillotti obviously the mods in the anesthesia subforum have taken a more laissez faire approach, which is great- I appreciate the open and candid discussions on here, and all that you guys do. I do wonder though, if we really should be tolerating open and unapologetic racism of this sort.

Personally I think these comments should also not be tolerated in this forum, though I suppose that's up to the moderators to decide.

I can't say I disagree with anything you said and we are talking about it.

No easy answers sometimes.

 

[vector2]

No easy answers sometimes.

Ain't that the truth. It's 2020, we're presumably a group of highly educated folks, and one guy is openly admitting he doesnt rent property to people based on race and another is saying that a judge giving a black guy 2 more years in jail because he's black isn't racist. What a world.

 

[doctalaughs]

judge giving a black guy 2 more years in jail because he's black isn't racist. What a world.

You like paraphrasing and simplifying to pigeonhole people.

I meant a judge who did his best to be fair, apply the law equally and then looked back over his career and found statistically he had given 2 more years for similar crimes to black vs white criminals... is BIASed not racist. And that we should solve this by implementing system changes to prevent bias (instead of endlessly name-calling and applying loaded labels, which does zero).

 

[dhb]

Well, my previous response was actually written before I even saw this post.

Well, let’s all be open about our racism. I have always preferred the open racists anyway, not the closeted bigots and their “I have a black friend so I can’t be racist”.
Thank you for your honesty.

What about those who say there is one white guy in hiphop so they're not biased?

 

[dhb]

Ain't that the truth. It's 2020, we're presumably a group of highly educated folks, and one guy is openly admitting he doesnt rent property to people based on race and another is saying that a judge giving a black guy 2 more years in jail because he's black isn't racist. What a world.

Good for you on playing the race card. Where did i say that in my posts? I said a certain subset of people... and your biased mind automatically assumed race/color. (edit i did say names but that's because of the study you were talking about, lets say that my suspiscions would rise and i'd be more careful with certain names)
If you saw a line up of my tenants you would be hard pressed to find who i discriminate against:
The people i don't entertain for my rentals are people on welfare. Why? Because when people don't have financial "skin" in the game they tend to have less respect for proprety, also by the nature of the rental i tend to have problems collecting from the welfare agency.
When you travel the world you see racism everywhere between people of same or different "race". It's the nature of the game when you have socio-economic or belief disparities: the "have not" will want to have more and the easiest way is to take it from the "have" thus creating resentment, the believers will try to convert the others of their beliefs (like in this thread ).

 

[BLADEMDA]

Thomas Sowell's new column: "It so happens that whites were turned down for mortgage loans at a higher rate than Asian Americans, but that fact seldom made it into the newspaper headlines or the political rhetoric. Nor did either the mainstream media or political leaders mention the fact that black-owned banks turned down black mortgage loan applicants at least as often as white-owned banks did."

 

[BLADEMDA]

"If I may, just the other day I came across an article about how employers setting up new factories in the United States have been deliberately locating those factories away from concentrations of black populations because they find it costlier to hire blacks than to hire whites with the same qualifications. The reason is that the way civil rights laws are interpreted, it is so easy to start a discrimination lawsuit which can go on for years and cost millions of dollars regardless of the outcome.

It makes no sense from a business standpoint to hire a black worker if a white worker can be hired with the same qualifications who can’t start a lawsuit. So what this suggests is that when you give some people special rights, those special rights have special costs, not only to other people but to the people with special rights."

Thomas Sowell

 

[vector2]

I meant a judge who did his best to be fair, apply the law equally and then looked back over his career and found statistically he had given 2 more years for similar crimes to black vs white criminals... is BIASed not racist.

Do I have to send you a copy of Merriam Webster or something? If the judge's sample size is large enough to eliminate differences due to chance and the only the factor which separates the verdicts and sentence length is the color of the defendant's skin, then that is the very definition of racism

Statistically, it may actually be difficult to ascertain the skew using only one judge, but it's very easy to see the statistical difference between black and white people when looking at the entirety of sentencing across the US criminal justice system (hence why I quoted almost a dozen studies spanning decades). All other things being equal in the cases, black people getting longer sentences is proof of systemic racism.

I know that word really makes you uncomfortable, but calling the phenomena by a different name or perpetually coming up with euphemisms for obviously racist behavior doesn't do anyone any favors.

 

[vector2]

Good for you on playing the race card. Where did i say that in my posts? I said a certain subset of people... and your biased mind automatically assumed race/color. (edit i did say names but that's because of the study you were talking about, lets say that my suspiscions would rise and i'd be more careful with certain names)
If you saw a line up of my tenants you would be hard pressed to find who i discriminate against:
The people i don't entertain for my rentals are people on welfare. Why? Because when people don't have financial "skin" in the game they tend to have less respect for proprety, also by the nature of the rental i tend to have problems collecting from the welfare agency.
When you travel the world you see racism everywhere between people of same or different "race". It's the nature of the game when you have socio-economic or belief disparities: the "have not" will want to have more and the easiest way is to take it from the "have" thus creating resentment, the believers will try to convert the others of their beliefs (like in this thread ).

Oh, I assumed, is it? Look at what I wrote and then look at how you responded before you try and continue your bait and switch

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

It seems the height of cognitive dissonance (and intellectual laziness) to me to argue that systemic racism doesn't exist, and to pawn off that disparities exist due to education or socioeconomic status. The obvious follow-up question would be, where do those differences in education/socioeconomic status/etc come from?

A) Could it be from the fact that (among many others), as recently as when my parents were born, segregation was legal? One generation above me. Those people are still alive and voting. Do we really think racism disappeared in less than one lifetime?

B) Inherent cultural/genetic differences? Careful here, I'm not sure saying "blacks are poorer and less educated because they are lazier and don't value education" really helps your argument that you're not racist.

I think one of the problems we're running into on this board is that we (and the country for the most part) are making this dichotomous label. You're either racist, or you're not racist. And we've at least come far enough to know that being called a racist is bad, so we go through a lot of mental gymnastics to convince ourselves and others that we're not racist, which does nothing to address the problem. It puts people on the defensive and they just intellectually shut down.

It seems to me that it's more useful to view racism (or bias, or whatever you want to call preference for people who look/act like you and disdain for those who don't) as a scale. Say, 1 to 10. Like any good population model, I assume the distribution resembles a bell curve. Most of us are between 3 and 7. I think the important thing is to be self-aware enough to know where you are on the scale (recognize your own biases) and move yourself as far to the left as possible. Nobody's going to move all the way to the left, and that's OK. Many biases are subconscious, and you can't fix what you don't identify as a problem. Other things are just so ingrained from 30, 40, 50, 60 years of life experiences, that no matter how hard you work, you're not going to make them go away.

Again, to reiterate. When my parents were born, a sizable portion of this country couldn't even drink from the same water fountains because they were deemed inferior. Are we leaps and bounds ahead of where we were then? For sure. Have we eradicated hundreds of years of inequality in one lifetime? Absolutely not.