Lawyer forum

[TikiTorches]

Grandma of boy, one, shot dead in NYC slams BLM

Toddler Davell Gardner Jr., left, was killed and three men were wounded after two gunmen opened fire at a family cookout in Brooklyn, right, on Sunday night.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[BLADEMDA]

It seems the height of cognitive dissonance (and intellectual laziness) to me to argue that systemic racism doesn't exist, and to pawn off that disparities exist due to education or socioeconomic status. The obvious follow-up question would be, where do those differences in education/socioeconomic status/etc come from?

A) Could it be from the fact that (among many others), as recently as when my parents were born, segregation was legal? One generation above me. Those people are still alive and voting. Do we really think racism disappeared in less than one lifetime?

B) Inherent cultural/genetic differences? Careful here, I'm not sure saying "blacks are poorer and less educated because they are lazier and don't value education" really helps your argument that you're not racist.

I think one of the problems we're running into on this board is that we (and the country for the most part) are making this dichotomous label. You're either racist, or you're not racist. And we've at least come far enough to know that being called a racist is bad, so we go through a lot of mental gymnastics to convince ourselves and others that we're not racist, which does nothing to address the problem. It puts people on the defensive and they just intellectually shut down.

It seems to me that it's more useful to view racism (or bias, or whatever you want to call preference for people who look/act like you and disdain for those who don't) as a scale. Say, 1 to 10. Like any good population model, I assume the distribution resembles a bell curve. Most of us are between 3 and 7. I think the important thing is to be self-aware enough to know where you are on the scale (recognize your own biases) and move yourself as far to the left as possible. Nobody's going to move all the way to the left, and that's OK. Many biases are subconscious, and you can't fix what you don't identify as a problem. Other things are just so ingrained from 30, 40, 50, 60 years of life experiences, that no matter how hard you work, you're not going to make them go away.

Again, to reiterate. When my parents were born, a sizable portion of this country couldn't even drink from the same water fountains because they were deemed inferior. Are we leaps and bounds ahead of where we were then? For sure. Have we eradicated hundreds of years of inequality in one lifetime? Absolutely not.

For many of us it seems lazy to argue that systemic racism exists when no such proof has been shown. The exact opposite is true so one must use disparity of outcomes to prove racism when there are many other reasons for such disparities in America.

Criminal justice is a separate topic which can be discussed. If the judges aren’t being fair or have bias let’s fit the bias. But, I don’t believe the system itself is racist at all because we have black judges and black police officers. While subconscious bias does exist this can be remedied by open discussion of sentence disparities with judges. Such disparity of sentence for prison should be remedied. The system is more than capable of adapting and fixing this problem.

Racism is a small component of disparities in America. We should openly look at these huge disparities in education for example but it is pure laziness to blame racism as the main cause in 2020

 

[BLADEMDA]

If you have 5 minutes read this article. You may learn a great deal.

Thomas Sowell - "The Education of Minority Children"

 

[doctalaughs]

Thomas Sowell's new column: "It so happens that whites were turned down for mortgage loans at a higher rate than Asian Americans, but that fact seldom made it into the newspaper headlines or the political rhetoric. Nor did either the mainstream media or political leaders mention the fact that black-owned banks turned down black mortgage loan applicants at least as often as white-owned banks did."

Very interesting. I guess by the logic posted by others in this thread, we are a systemically racist society against whites (as compared to Asians)!

Guess we better have some more systemic racism meeting at those banks to “solve” the problem, instead of implementing a real solution to mitigate unchangeable human bias.

 

[vector2]

Very interesting. I guess by the logic posted by others in this thread, we are a systemically racist society against whites (as compared to Asians)!

I'll let you see the actual numerical difference between whites and asians before you get too excited thinking you have a "gotcha"

Blacks, Hispanics face mortgage challenges

Black and Hispanic mortgage applicants are denied more frequently than whites and Asians, and when they do obtain mortgages they tend to pay higher rates.

www.google.com

 

[doctalaughs]

Zero correction for credit scores or income?

Try this one (which actually shows Asians are far more discriminated against than blacks):

Traditional mortgage denial metrics may misrepresent racial and ethnic discrimination

Traditional mortgage denial metrics don’t control for the creditworthiness of applicants.

www.urban.org

Truth is you can always cherry pick some data to support your conclusion but really, systemic racism isn’t the major thing accounting for disparities we see in our society.

 

[vector2]

One second you're salivating over the mention of a study that may show whites at a disadvantage to asians, and the next second (after being shown you don't really have much cause for gloating) you suddenly care about nuance and methodology and bring up a study where the comparison between whites and asians makes a 180. Got it.

The metric from the urban institute is better because it corrects for credit scores, loan-to-value ratios, debt-to-income ratios (DTI), and product and documentation types. It does not correct for income or assets.

It narrows the gap, but unsurprisingly denial rates are still higher for blacks, hispanics, and asians than whites.

"The higher denial rates stem from the fact that we are looking at the same number of denied mortgages, but the denominator includes denied applicants plus lower-credit-profile borrowers only, rather than all borrowers. Thus, the real denial rate is 30 percent for whites, 37 percent for blacks, 33 percent for Hispanics, and 43 percent for Asians.

Using the real denial rate method, the denial rate for black families is 1.2 times that of whites, while the rates for Hispanics and Asians are 1.1 times and 1.4 times, respectively, that of whites.

It may seem surprising that Asian borrowers have the highest denial rate, but a closer look shows that this stems from the low number of lower-credit-profile applicants in this group. The lending channel also matters: government loans (FHA, VA, USDA’s rural housing) generally have lower real denial rates than conventional loans, and Asian borrowers tend to rely less on government loans than other groups. By contrast, black and Hispanic borrowers tend to rely more heavily on government loans than do white borrowers. "

 

[pgg]

I can't say I disagree with anything you said and we are talking about it.

No easy answers sometimes.

Agreed

To expand on Arch's answer with my thoughts -

One of the things that has been widely called for at a national level and in almost every setting imaginable is for more open discussion and dialogue.

Well, this is what dialogue looks like.

Dialogue will have people who agree with you, disagree with you, argue well or badly, plus trolls and abusive people. I view my role as a moderator as taking care of the trolls and abusers. Beyond that, forums like this have an intrinsic homeostasis towards decency, as members tend to police themselves and call out objectionable material.

Regulated discussion between like-minded people is intra-choir comfort chatting, not dialogue with any hope of altering anyone's opinion.

As long as the participants in the thread aren't being disruptive or attacking other members, I tend to believe it's better to leave everything and everyone in the open. Ideas and opinions won't get challenged otherwise. But I'm always interested in hearing what degree of moderation people want.

 

[Hork Bajir]

Appreciate the thoughtful responses from the mods. I won’t apologize for denouncing racism, but I’m also not advocating for any suppression of open dialogue. Count it as “members policing themselves and calling out objectionable material”. As a community we have to decide where we draw the line of what is acceptable discourse.

 

[Hork Bajir]

@FFP you’ve been unusually quiet lately. Glad you find my post funny...?

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

For many of us it seems lazy to argue that systemic racism exists when no such proof has been shown. The exact opposite is true so one must use disparity of outcomes to prove racism when there are many other reasons for such disparities in America.

Criminal justice is a separate topic which can be discussed. If the judges aren’t being fair or have bias let’s fit the bias. But, I don’t believe the system itself is racist at all because we have black judges and black police officers. While subconscious bias does exist this can be remedied by open discussion of sentence disparities with judges. Such disparity of sentence for prison should be remedied. The system is more than capable of adapting and fixing this problem.

Racism is a small component of disparities in America. We should openly look at these huge disparities in education for example but it is pure laziness to blame racism as the main cause in 2020

I'm genuinely curious, can you list some of these "other reasons" for disparities in America?

 

[BLADEMDA]

" There is no question that Africans and their descendants faced the additional barrier of color prejudice, but can we measure its effects by assuming that black people would have had the same income and wealth as white people in the absence of this factor-- especially in view of the large disparities among different groups of white immigrants, not to mention the rise of some non-white groups such as Chinese Americans and Japanese Americans to incomes above the national average? "


" The fact that discrimination deserves moral condemnation does not automatically make it causally crucial."

Some Causes of Disparities in America:

1. Education
2. Economic
3. Geography (physical location of the person like South Chicago)
4. Family Structure (Father in the home)
5. First Born vs Third Child
6. Race

"What is "the" reason? There may not be any such thing as "the" reason. There are so many cultural, social, economic, and other factors interacting that there was never any reason to expect equal results in the first place. That is why plausible simplicities must be subjected to factual scrutiny. "

https://www.tsowell.com/spracecu.htm

 

[BLADEMDA]

Vector2 should just follow along for a moment and think about this scenario. Let's assume I am correct (for one moment) and racism isn't the cause for the problems in Chicago. Instead, let's assume the causes are 1-5 listed above in my previous post. How do we fix 1-5? Do we have the "right" to fix the problem? Can we go into the homes of black single mothers and take their children? Can we force teenagers to remain in school? Can we relocate entire Black families out of Chicago to better areas and provide them employment? How do we get the kids a father figure? Better yet, how do we get certain black men to become responsible parents like they once were pre-1960's? I don't think stricter gun laws, more police and higher welfare payments are going to solve the problems. The answers must come from within the community itself and this starts by accepting the main cause isn't racism.

18 murders in 24 hours: Inside the most violent day in 60 years in Chicago

‘We’ve never seen anything like it at all,’ said Max Kapustin, the senior research director at the University of Chicago Crime Lab.

chicago.suntimes.com

Police: 64 Shot, 11 Killed as Weekend Violence Continues in Chicago

Chicago’s top cop David Brown is again calling for community partnerships and additional investments in South and West Side neighborhoods after yet another violent weekend that saw dozens of people shot.

news.wttw.com

 

[BLADEMDA]

Chicago activist calls on Black Lives Matter to help stem city's gun violence: 'We are losing too many kids'

Violence Interrupters executive director Tio Hardiman joined "The Story" Thursday to discuss the ongoing violence in Chicago and the Black Lives Matter movement.

www.foxnews.com

The real problem is black on black crime in the cities in America. Where is Black Lives Matter when black kids are gunned down in American cities?

 

[vector2]

Vector2 should just follow along for a moment and think about this scenario. Let's assume I am correct (for one moment) and racism isn't the cause for the problems in Chicago. Instead, let's assume the causes are 1-5 listed above in my previous post. How do we fix 1-5? Do we have the "right" to fix the problem? Can we go into the homes of black single mothers and take their children? Can we force teenagers to remain in school? Can we relocate entire Black families out of Chicago to better areas and provide them employment? How do we get the kids a father figure? Better yet, how do we get certain black men to become responsible parents like they once were pre-1960's? I don't think stricter gun laws, more police and higher welfare payments are going to solve the problems. The answers must come from within the community itself and this starts by accepting the main cause isn't racism.

18 murders in 24 hours: Inside the most violent day in 60 years in Chicago

‘We’ve never seen anything like it at all,’ said Max Kapustin, the senior research director at the University of Chicago Crime Lab.

chicago.suntimes.com

Police: 64 Shot, 11 Killed as Weekend Violence Continues in Chicago

Chicago’s top cop David Brown is again calling for community partnerships and additional investments in South and West Side neighborhoods after yet another violent weekend that saw dozens of people shot.

news.wttw.com

Racism as the only factor contributing to disparities in 1-5 is a strawman no one has claimed. But I would say we not only have the right to fix 1-5, I would argue we all have the responsibility to.

As far as education, schools happen to be the most segregated they have been in 50 years. The legacy of civil rights era was that white flight (comprised of ppl who made sure they kept all the good jobs) totally demolished the tax base that paid for urban schools. Our national and state educational policy is a form of institutional racism which makes sure that poorer schools, situated quite often in poorer minority neighborhoods, never have a chance to reach parity with the schools in richer neighborhoods.

Similar logic applies both to the disparities in jobs/economics and geography. If we as a society continue to propagate (or at the very least not help to fix) generational poverty, then it is no surprise that it will lead to continued domestic problems within certain communities.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Racism as the only factor contributing to disparities in 1-5 is a strawman no one has claimed. But I would say we not only have the right to fix 1-5, I would argue we all have the responsibility to.

As far as education, schools happen to be the most segregated they have been in 50 years. The legacy of civil rights era was that white flight (comprised of ppl who made sure they kept all the good jobs) totally demolished the tax base that paid for urban schools. Our national and state educational policy is a form of institutional racism which makes sure that poorer schools, situated quite often in poorer minority neighborhoods, never have a chance to reach parity with the schools in richer neighborhoods.

Similar logic applies both to the disparities in jobs/economics and geography. If we as a society continue to propagate (or at the very least not help to fix) generational poverty, then it is no surprise that it will lead to continued domestic problems within certain communities.

Interestingly, in SC its the rural white counties that are the worst off in terms of per pupil total spending. The minority predominate counties actually get more per student than even the majority white urban districts. The rural ones that are right at 50/50 get screwed the most.

The disparity is alarming. The best paid district is right at 22k/student, the lowest is 10k/student.

 

[SaltyDog]

Similar logic applies both to the disparities in jobs/economics and geography. If we as a society continue to propagate (or at the very least not help to fix) generational poverty, then it is no surprise that it will lead to continued domestic problems within certain communities.

So how ‘bout you tell us what you think should be done to fix these problems.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Interestingly, in SC its the rural white counties that are the worst off in terms of per pupil total spending. The minority predominate counties actually get more per student than even the majority white urban districts. The rural ones that are right at 50/50 get screwed the most.

The disparity is alarming. The best paid district is right at 22k/student, the lowest is 10k/student.

"At a time when many of the best minds in education seem to have accepted uncritically or been cowed to agree that the sum and substance of educational failure is racism—not school culture or competence, or the ability to nurture student initiative—or that black excellence is not possible without white permission or allyship, Sowell’s message may fall on deaf ears. This is the curse of age and wisdom. The hard-won clarity of our wisest elders is ours to profit from, if we choose to listen."

Charter Schools and Their Enemies - Education Next

At 90, Thomas Sowell reminds charter schools how to fight. And why.

www.educationnext.org

 

[vector2]

Interestingly, in SC its the rural white counties that are the worst off in terms of per pupil total spending. The minority predominate counties actually get more per student than even the majority white urban districts. The rural ones that are right at 50/50 get screwed the most.

The disparity is alarming. The best paid district is right at 22k/student, the lowest is 10k/student.

Mind posting the source?

I thought this article was interesting

"At Tigerville Elementary in northern Greenville County, where only 5% of students are black or Hispanic, 48% of students live in poverty, and the school’s 2019 report card showed more than 84% of students met or exceeded expectations on the SC Ready English language arts test. At Thomas E. Kerns Elementary on the south side of Greenville, where only 9% of students are white, 91% of students live in poverty, and the 2019 report card showed only 32% passed the ELA test."

It's not policy anymore, but 1 in 7 South Carolina schools remain segregated

Across South Carolina, 171 schools are attended by student populations at least 90% white or 90% minority.

www.google.com

 

[BLADEMDA]

No schools anywhere in the United States are more lauded — or more despised — than New York City’s Success Academy charter schools, which educate 17,000 students, nearly all of them low-income and minority and nearly all of them performing at extraordinarily high levels.

Those who praise Success Academy (check the New York Post’s editorial page for near-daily accolades) credit its high expectations, strict discipline and rich curriculum, implying that regular New York City’s district schools could achieve the same, if only they had more gumption and less-onerous teacher contracts dictated by the unions. To them, Success founder Eva Moskowitz is a shiny reformer in armor.

Whitmire: Both Fans and Critics of Success Academy’s Remarkable Results Will Find Something to Like in Pondiscio’s New Book. But Don’t Use It to Judge All Charter Schools

No schools anywhere in the United States are more lauded — or more despised — than New York City’s Success Academy charter schools, which educate 17,000 students, nearly all of them low-income and minority and nearly all of them performing at extraordinarily high levels. Those who praise Success...

www.the74million.org

 

[BLADEMDA]

Racism as the only factor contributing to disparities in 1-5 is a strawman no one has claimed. But I would say we not only have the right to fix 1-5, I would argue we all have the responsibility to.

As far as education, schools happen to be the most segregated they have been in 50 years. The legacy of civil rights era was that white flight (comprised of ppl who made sure they kept all the good jobs) totally demolished the tax base that paid for urban schools. Our national and state educational policy is a form of institutional racism which makes sure that poorer schools, situated quite often in poorer minority neighborhoods, never have a chance to reach parity with the schools in richer neighborhoods.

Similar logic applies both to the disparities in jobs/economics and geography. If we as a society continue to propagate (or at the very least not help to fix) generational poverty, then it is no surprise that it will lead to continued domestic problems within certain communities.

Charter Schools’ Enemies Block Black Success
Teachers unions are gaining in their fight to stop students and resources from moving toward what works.

Opinion | Charter Schools’ Enemies Block Black Success

Teachers unions are gaining in their fight to stop students and resources from moving toward what works.

www.wsj.com

 

[vector2]

So how ‘bout you tell us what you think should be done to fix these problems.

First and foremost is redrawing districts to be fair and ending the absurd amount of gerrymandering which is the only thing keeping the GOP significantly in power in many places. Also almost 1 in 5 schools in America is segregated. Let's think about how those lines are drawn.

State tax dollars get distributed equally among public schools. Equal opportunity for charter schools as well. Universal preK. Raise taxes to give teachers a raise. Adequate funding for planned parenthood and WIC. Expand Medicaid. Expand access to abortion and birth control. Paid family leave. Expand broadband access.

Universal bodycams. End qualified immunity. End police unions for non pay matters. Audits of departments, judges and districts, and expand federal consent decrees when there is significant evidence of police abuse and/or racist sentencing. Totally redo US drug policy. Release tens of thousands of non violent or elderly offenders from prison. Restore voting rights to people who served their time.

Audit mortgages and business loans- if institutions have statistically significant disparities in loans they give to people of color, or they are habitually engage in predatory lending, massive fines or even criminal charges.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Mind posting the source?

I thought this article was interesting

"At Tigerville Elementary in northern Greenville County, where only 5% of students are black or Hispanic, 48% of students live in poverty, and the school’s 2019 report card showed more than 84% of students met or exceeded expectations on the SC Ready English language arts test. At Thomas E. Kerns Elementary on the south side of Greenville, where only 9% of students are white, 91% of students live in poverty, and the 2019 report card showed only 32% passed the ELA test."

It's not policy anymore, but 1 in 7 South Carolina schools remain segregated

Across South Carolina, 171 schools are attended by student populations at least 90% white or 90% minority.

www.google.com

I had to combine sources.

We have school funding: https://ed.sc.gov/finance/financial...ted-by-school-district-fiscal-year-2019-2020/

And demographics: U.S. Census Bureau QuickFacts: South Carolina

Greenville isn't a good example to use from a funding perspective as the county only has 1 school district. Now I can't find figures that say if it is distributed evenly across the various schools on a per student basis, but I'd be surprised if they did otherwise. I know my district in the state distributed it evenly.

What that doesn't account for is additional money from things like the PTA or fundraising.

 

[BLADEMDA]

First and foremost is redrawing districts to be fair and ending the absurd amount of gerrymandering which is the only thing keeping the GOP significantly in power in many places. Also almost 1 in 5 schools in America is segregated. Let's think about how those lines are drawn.

State tax dollars get distributed equally among public schools. Equal opportunity for charter schools as well. Universal preK. Raise taxes to give teachers a raise. Adequate funding for planned parenthood and WIC. Expand Medicaid. Expand broadband access.

Universal bodycams. End qualified immunity. End police unions for non pay matters. Audits of departments, judges and districts, and expand federal consent decrees when there is significant evidence of police abuse and/or racist sentencing. Totally redo US drug policy. Release tens of thousands of non violent or elderly offenders from prison.

Audit mortgages and business loans- if institutions have statistically significant disparities in loans they give to people of color, or they are habitually engage in predatory lending, massive fines or even criminal charges.

Stop putting "color" or "race" on the applications. The banks make loans for profit. They don't care about color. This has been proven by Black owned banks having the same rate of acceptance for black loans as White owned banks. I'm positive that even if you opened 50 more BLACK owned banks the rate of acceptance would barely move. I'm fine with 2-3 National Banks just for blacks so you can see once and for all that race plays no role in how loans are administered/accepted by banks.

Recruit BLACKS to become police officers. I'd like to see 50% of all police officers be of African heritage. This way when the Black cop shoots the suspect we don't have to hear the B.S. about racism on TV and have our businesses burned to the ground. I'd argue that a white cop shouldn't even patrol African American neighborhoods without a Black partner.

Second, education is about the student not the school. Let the family decide how to spend that $25,000 with a voucher. Provide poor, black kids transportation to the school of his/her choice.

As for criminal justice reform I think white people should get stiffer sentences for the same crimes as their black counterparts. Crime is a problem for all of us. I agree with the audits but that is to make sure that whites like Epstein go to jail not so Black Americans go back on the street to commit more crime.

 

[BLADEMDA]

The Lasting Damage of the Left’s ‘Favors’ to Blacks | National Review

The Left’s “favors” to blacks don’t help because exempting certain people from standards does not provide them with real assistance.

www.nationalreview.com

One of these “favors” was the welfare state. A vastly expanded welfare state in the 1960s destroyed the black family, which had survived centuries of slavery and generations of racial oppression.



In 1960, before this expansion of the welfare state, 22 percent of black children were raised with only one parent. By 1985, 67 percent of black children were raised with either one parent or no parent.

Thomas Sowell

 

[vector2]

I had to combine sources.

We have school funding: https://ed.sc.gov/finance/financial...ted-by-school-district-fiscal-year-2019-2020/

And demographics: U.S. Census Bureau QuickFacts: South Carolina

Greenville isn't a good example to use from a funding perspective as the county only has 1 school district. Now I can't find figures that say if it is distributed evenly across the various schools on a per student basis, but I'd be surprised if they did otherwise. I know my district in the state distributed it evenly.

What that doesn't account for is additional money from things like the PTA or fundraising.

I'm still not seeing how you're conclusively making that statement about rural black vs white funding. I see the table with the per pupil revenue per district but how are you figuring out the demographics as broken down per district instead of by county?

I also don't understand what's going on in Allendale county which I assume is your example with the 22k per pupil. It is majority black, per capita income is pretty low, and it's the least populous county in the state. However other relatively poor black counties dont have 22k per pupil. Dunno the story....

 

[vector2]

The Lasting Damage of the Left’s ‘Favors’ to Blacks | National Review

The Left’s “favors” to blacks don’t help because exempting certain people from standards does not provide them with real assistance.

www.nationalreview.com

One of these “favors” was the welfare state. A vastly expanded welfare state in the 1960s destroyed the black family, which had survived centuries of slavery and generations of racial oppression.



In 1960, before this expansion of the welfare state, 22 percent of black children were raised with only one parent. By 1985, 67 percent of black children were raised with either one parent or no parent.

Thomas Sowell

This is like the poster argument for why correlation does not equal causation.

 

[vector2]

Stop putting "color" or "race" on the applications. The banks make loans for profit. They don't care about color. This has been proven by Black owned banks having the same rate of acceptance for black loans as White owned banks. I'm positive that even if you opened 50 more BLACK owned banks the rate of acceptance would barely move. I'm fine with 2-3 National Banks just for blacks so you can see once and for all that race plays no role in how loans are administered/accepted by banks.

Recruit BLACKS to become police officers. I'd like to see 50% of all police officers be of African heritage. This way when the Black cop shoots the suspect we don't have to hear the B.S. about racism on TV and have our businesses burned to the ground. I'd argue that a white cop shouldn't even patrol African American neighborhoods without a Black partner.

Second, education is about the student not the school. Let the family decide how to spend that $25,000 with a voucher. Provide poor, black kids transportation to the school of his/her choice.

As for criminal justice reform I think white people should get stiffer sentences for the same crimes as their black counterparts. Crime is a problem for all of us. I agree with the audits but that is to make sure that whites like Epstein go to jail not so Black Americans go back on the street to commit more crime.

Notice how I said "Release tens of thousands of non violent or elderly offenders from prison" and your response is "not so Black Americans go back on the street to commit more crime."

Incredible anyone would even try to dispute racism in law enforcement and criminal justice when the stereotype of black people as violent criminals who are incapable of rehabilitation is so prevalent.

 

[BLADEMDA]

This is like the poster argument for why correlation does not equal causation.

While you statement has validity I would remind you that doing favors for minority groups is not always helpful. I prefer to treat everyone equally regardless of race or sex. That’s the path forward for all of us.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Notice how I said "Release tens of thousands of non violent or elderly offenders from prison" and your response is "not so Black Americans go back on the street to commit more crime."

Incredible anyone would even try to dispute racism in law enforcement and criminal justice when the stereotype of black people as violent criminals who are incapable of rehabilitation is so prevalent.

I want all criminals regardless of color locked up. As for changing the drug laws and drug sentencing I agree the racial disparities are clearly there. I think the economic disparity, rich vs poor, is the greatest disparity in sentencing of non violent crimes.

My answer to your supposed racism in law enforcement is a 50 percent black police force. I suspect that police shootings of unarmed blacks by black police officers will still occur but the charge of racism won’t be valid.

The NYPD is a diverse police force. It is not racist. But, there may be a few bad apples among the bunch.

 

[BLADEMDA]

People demonstrate in New York City, June 24, 2020, requesting the City Council defund the police or reduce the police budget by one billion dollars, in the wake of the death of George Floyd and protests over racial inequality.

 

[chocomorsel]

Notice how I said "Release tens of thousands of non violent or elderly offenders from prison" and your response is "not so Black Americans go back on the street to commit more crime."

Incredible anyone would even try to dispute racism in law enforcement and criminal justice when the stereotype of black people as violent criminals who are incapable of rehabilitation is so prevalent.

Thank you!!! Thank You!!! I saw that too and my mouth dropped open. Seriously? Because hat is what Black Americans do is go back to the street and commit more crime right? People really need to look in the mirror and check their privileges and racist stereotypes. I have a few family member that went to jail, learned their lesson, came out and find proper jobs and are crime free. Wasn't easy, but it's doable.
Can we also give clean slate to criminals so that when they are released they aren't discriminated against for jobs?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I'm still not seeing how you're conclusively making that statement about rural black vs white funding. I see the table with the per pupil revenue per district but how are you figuring out the demographics as broken down per district instead of by county?

I also don't understand what's going on in Allendale county which I assume is your example with the 22k per pupil. It is majority black, per capita income is pretty low, and it's the least populous county in the state. However other relatively poor black counties dont have 22k per pupil. Dunno the story....

Greatschools.com has demographics by district, but the rural counties usually don't have more than 1 district and the ones that do usually have similar demographics.

For instance, Bamberg has 2 schools districts (for some reason). Bamberg 1 is 56% black, Bamberg 2 is 95% black. So both majority black. Interestingly, even within the county the funding backs up my assertion. Bamberg 1 gets 16k/student, Bamberg 2 gets 19k.

For the ones that don't work out that way demographically, the funding still usually tracks.

Clarendon 1 - 92% black, funding is 18k/student

Clarendon 2 - 64% black, funding is 14k

Clarendon 3 - 68% white, funding 12k

 

[chocomorsel]

I want all criminals regardless of color locked up. As for changing the drug laws and drug sentencing I agree the racial disparities are clearly there. I think the economic disparity, rich vs poor, is the greatest disparity in sentencing of non violent crimes.

My answer to your supposed racism in law enforcement is a 50 percent black police force. I suspect that police shootings of unarmed blacks by black police officers will still occur but the charge of racism won’t be valid.

The NYPD is a diverse police force. It is not racist. But, there may be a few bad apples among the bunch.

Keep ignoring the ignorant and clearly biased statements you make stemming from centuries of racism in this country. What do White folks who come out of jail do? Unlike Blacks they must all go and become upstanding citizens right?

 

[BLADEMDA]

Keep ignoring the ignorant and clearly biased statements you make stemming from centuries of racism in this country. What do White folks who come out of jail do? Unlike Blacks they must all go and become upstanding citizens right?

No. Of course not. Why are you reading into my posts meanings which aren't there? My previous post was a comment about making sure white criminals get the same treatment as black ones. Rather than letting everyone "off the hook" I prefer making sure WHITE criminals get the jail time they deserve on an equal level with Black Americans. If the crime demands 2 years in jail then everyone serves the 2 years.

White Men who have been released from jail due to a violent felony won't have an easy time finding a job and are likely to commit crimes again.

 

[BLADEMDA]

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/18upr9yfup0514.pdf

A smaller percentage of white prisoners than black or Hispanic prisoners recidivated during the frst year afer release. During the frst year afer release, 40% of white prisoners were arrested for the frst time, compared to 47% of Hispanic and 46% of black prisoners (table 3). During year-2 afer release, 16% of white prisoners were arrested for the frst time, compared to 17% of black and 14% of Hispanic prisoners. During the ninth year afer release, about 1% of each sex, race, Hispanic origin, and age group were arrested for the frst time. During the 9-year follow-up period, 87% of black prisoners and 81% of white and Hispanic prisoners were arrested.

 

[chocomorsel]

No. Of course not. Why are you reading into my posts meanings which aren't there? My previous post was a comment about making sure white criminals get the same treatment as black ones. Rather than letting everyone "off the hook" I prefer making sure WHITE criminals get the jail time they deserve on an equal level with Black Americans. If the crime demands 2 years in jail then everyone serves the 2 years.

White Men who have been released from jail due to a violent felony won't have an easy time finding a job and are likely to commit crimes again.

Not reading into anything. You typed it. You know what you meant. Or maybe you didn't realize what you wrote. You could have just said " whites like Epstein go to jail not so convicted criminals go back on the street to commit more crime." But you chose to specify it with Black Americans. You have been brainwashed and and are biased as hell.

You honestly don't see anything wrong with what you wrote.
Sad thing is, there are plenty of White folks who think like you and don't see anything wrong with it. They don't realize how ignorantly biased they sound.

Just to remind you what @vector2 wrote and who you responded to. "Release tens of thousands of non violent or elderly offenders from prison." He didn't mention race.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Not reading into anything. You typed it. You know what you meant. Or maybe you didn't realize what you wrote. You could have just said " whites like Epstein go to jail not so convicted criminals go back on the street to commit more crime." But you chose to specify it with Black Americans. You have been brainwashed and and are biased as hell.

You honestly don't see anything wrong with what you wrote.
Sad thing is, there are plenty of White folks who think like you and don't see anything wrong with it. They don't realize how ignorantly biased they sound.

Just to remind you what @vector2 wrote and who you responded to. "Release tens of thousands of non violent or elderly offenders from prison." He didn't mention race.

My post was in direct response to a "race" question where whites serve less time in jail than blacks for the same offenses. I responded by saying rather than allow Black Americans back onto the streets early White Americans should serve their full sentences in jail. I stand by most post and my intention behind them. If the law demands 2 years for a certain crime then everyone should serve the same time. People like Epstein shouldn't be able to game the system.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Here is my exact sentence:

As for criminal justice reform I think white people should get stiffer sentences for the same crimes as their black counterparts. Crime is a problem for all of us. I agree with the audits but that is to make sure that whites like Epstein go to jail not so Black Americans go back on the street to commit more crime.

Here are the statistics about Black Americans convicted of crimes:

During the 9-year follow-up period, 87% of black prisoners and 81% of white and Hispanic prisoners were arrested.

 

[chocomorsel]

My post was in direct response to a "race" question where whites serve less time in jail than blacks for the same offenses. I responded by saying rather than allow Black Americans back onto the streets early White Americans should serve their full sentences in jail. I stand by most post and my intention behind them. If the law demands 2 years for a certain crime then everyone should serve the same time. People like Epstein shouldn't be able to game the system.

Specifically you said "So that Black Americans go back on the street to commit more crime". You don't see anything wrong with that statement?
Like you already know what these Black American criminals are going to do when they are let loose from jail.
Yeah, that's biased as hell. And you continue to remain ignorant to your biased statements.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Specifically you said "So that Black Americans go back on the street to commit more crime". You don't see anything wrong with that statement?
Like you already know what these Black American criminals are going to do when they are let loose from jail.
Yeah, that's biased as hell. And you continue to remain ignorant to your biased statements.

No..Sorry, the facts speak for themselves as long as the context of the paragraph remains.

 

[chocomorsel]

Here is my exact sentence:

As for criminal justice reform I think white people should get stiffer sentences for the same crimes as their black counterparts. Crime is a problem for all of us. I agree with the audits but that is to make sure that whites like Epstein go to jail not so Black Americans go back on the street to commit more crime.

Here are the statistics about Black Americans convicted of crimes:

During the 9-year follow-up period, 87% of black prisoners and 81% of white and Hispanic prisoners were arrested.

And considering they find it quite difficult to find a job, it's no surprise.

Whatever the case, 81% of White prisoners were arrested. Very similar numbers. So your statement should have just stated "criminals" in general. A large majority of them from all races are committing crime again.

Again, biased statement, based on all your years of brainwashing about the "violent' Black Americans.

 

[chocomorsel]

No..Sorry, the facts speak for themselves as long as the context of the paragraph remains.

The facts remain, most criminals go back to commit more crime, regardless of their skin color. It's right there in your paper and you typed it out, but somehow are blind to it.
Stop focusing on only the Black Criminals. They aren't the only ones going back to crime.

 

[vector2]

Greatschools.com has demographics by district, but the rural counties usually don't have more than 1 district and the ones that do usually have similar demographics.

For instance, Bamberg has 2 schools districts (for some reason). Bamberg 1 is 56% black, Bamberg 2 is 95% black. So both majority black. Interestingly, even within the county the funding backs up my assertion. Bamberg 1 gets 16k/student, Bamberg 2 gets 19k.

For the ones that don't work out that way demographically, the funding still usually tracks.

Clarendon 1 - 92% black, funding is 18k/student

Clarendon 2 - 64% black, funding is 14k

Clarendon 3 - 68% white, funding 12k

Interesting. Do you know what explains the black/white school funding difference in SC? Why is it so different there than the rest of the nation where:

"
The report starts with a number: $23 billion. According to EdBuild, that's how much more funding predominantly white school districts receive compared with districts that serve mostly students of color.

"For every student enrolled, the average nonwhite school district receives $2,226 less than a white school district," the report says.
...
Researchers found that high-poverty districts serving mostly students of color receive about $1,600 less per student than the national average. That's while school districts that are predominately white and poor receive about $130 less.

Why White School Districts Have So Much More Money

According to a new report, predominantly white school districts receive $23 billion more than districts that serve mostly students of color in the U.S.

www.npr.org

"

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Interesting. Do you know what explains the black/white school funding difference in SC? Why is it so different there than the rest of the nation where:

"
The report starts with a number: $23 billion. According to EdBuild, that's how much more funding predominantly white school districts receive compared with districts that serve mostly students of color.

"For every student enrolled, the average nonwhite school district receives $2,226 less than a white school district," the report says.
...
Researchers found that high-poverty districts serving mostly students of color receive about $1,600 less per student than the national average. That's while school districts that are predominately white and poor receive about $130 less.

Why White School Districts Have So Much More Money

According to a new report, predominantly white school districts receive $23 billion more than districts that serve mostly students of color in the U.S.

www.npr.org

"

I have no idea. Wouldn't surprise me if it's a leftover from the forced integration in the late 60s. Could also be some policy where schools that don't perform as well get more money since performance as you noted does correlate with demographics.

 

[martvubo]

The facts remain, most criminals go back to commit more crime, regardless of their skin color. It's right there in your paper and you typed it out, but somehow are blind to it.
Stop focusing on only the Black Criminals. They aren't the only ones going back to crime.

I also was taken aback at how blade seemed to imply black = criminal but now I think you and he are talking past each other on this point. To continue his example "if the sentence should be 2 years then everyone should serve 2 years", he's acknowledging that the status quo is, at the year mark the white gets out and the black serves another year-- his position (that he admittedly did not initially clearly articulate) is: at the year mark, rather than also releasing the black convict to achieve equity, we should instead release NEITHER until both have served the appropriate 2 year sentence.

 

[chocomorsel]

I also was taken aback at how blade seemed to imply black = criminal but now I think you and he are talking past each other on this point. To continue his example "if the sentence should be 2 years then everyone should serve 2 years", he's acknowledging that the status quo is, at the year mark the white gets out and the black serves another year-- his position (that he admittedly did not initially clearly articulate) is: at the year mark, rather than also releasing the black convict to achieve equity, we should instead release NEITHER until both have served the appropriate 2 year sentence.

Hopefully you are right.

 

[nimbus]

“He gained a reputation for having an almost mystical faith in his own survivability. One civil rights activist who knew him well told The New York Times in 1976: “Some leaders, even the toughest, would occasionally finesse a situation where they knew they were going to get beaten or jailed. John never did that. He always went full force into the fray.”
Mr. Lewis was arrested 40 times from 1960 to 1966.He was beaten senseless repeatedly by Southern policemen and freelance hoodlums. During the Freedom Rides in 1961, he was left unconscious in a pool of his own blood outside the Greyhound Bus Terminal in Montgomery, Ala., after he and others were attacked by hundreds of white people. He spent countless days and nights in county jails and 31 days in Mississippi’s notoriously brutal Parchman Penitentiary.”


John Lewis, Towering Figure of Civil Rights Era, Dies at 80