LOI - Legally binding?

[LASurfer]

Hi Guys,

Just a quick ?....lets say I am waitlisted at 3 schools that I would love to go to, but don't really have the greatest odds of getting into....If I were to write LOI's to all three, thus possibly improving my odds...what is the penalty if I get into 2 of them but decide to go to 1.

?

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[BMW M3]

#1 anything you write and sign your name to has the potential to be legally binding

#2 if you write a letter of intent and then back out, not only is that very rude of you, but it also might hurt your undergrad's reputation and totally d!ck over any future applicant. (ie: my undergrad is blacklisted at columbia)

 

[USArmyDoc]

#1 anything you write and sign your name to has the potential to be legally binding

#2 if you write a letter of intent and then back out, not only is that very rude of you, but it also might hurt your undergrad's reputation and totally d!ck over any future applicant. (ie: my undergrad is blacklisted at columbia)

Could you explain why?

 

[LASurfer]

I dont see why a medical school would blacklist an undergraduate institution for some student writing a LOI and backing out. That would be pretty pathetic of Columbia.

 

[Mr. Tee]

Could you explain why?

Maybe because someone ruined his undergrad's reputation to Columbia because he/she wrote a LOI but didn't go to Columbia in the end?

Does sound a bit harsh though.

 

[BMW M3]

Could you explain why?

My premed advisor told me that a over a decade ago, an exceptional applicant told Columbia he would def. go there if he got in. Well, he got in, but decided to go to (not sure what school) instead.

Flash forward to 96, another exceptional applicant reallly wanted to go to Columbia. The premed advisor (columbia alumni) hand delivered the applicant's letters of recommendation to the adcom. A member of the columbia adcom pulled the file and told my advisor that the applicant will be "taken care of at another institution" so she wasn't even invited for an interview. Ie: she was rejected on the spot.

People from my undergrad have been applying to Columbia and have never since been even invited for an interview.

 

[LASurfer]

I think thats grounds for a lawsuit....if you can get the evidence, etc.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

Morally binding. Don't write to more than one school, dick.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

LASurfer, there is no way that a LOI is legally binding. No worries about that. Heck, it's only your word, your signature, and your honor. In fact, since you're writing a letter promising your loyalty to the school, it's kind of a written handshake on a very personal level. If the end justifies the means and your integrity means nothing to you - well, by all means...

I am sympathetic to being left hanging. However, the only reason I mean to sound so pointed is that I've learned this application cycle that many schools truly aren't fulfilling their responsibilities under the AAMC Code of Conduct for Schools - little things like not even acknowledging receipt of applications from AMCAS for months - there is no legitimate excuse. But if applicants think that the AAMC Code of Conduct for Applicants means absolutely nothing - we applicants don't have much higher moral ground to stand on, do we?

By the way, you promised to abide by the Code of Conduct for Applicants when you submitted your AMCAS. Which won't get you sent to jail for violating - it's just that truthiness thing.

 

[USArmyDoc]

LASurfer, there is no way that a LOI is legally binding. No worries about that. Heck, it's only your word, your signature, and your honor. In fact, since you're writing a letter promising your loyalty to the school, it's kind of a written handshake on a very personal level. If the end justifies the means and your integrity means nothing to you - well, by all means...
I am sympathetic to being left hanging. However, the only reason I mean to sound so pointed is that I've learned this application cycle that many schools truly aren't fulfilling their responsibilities under the AAMC Code of Conduct for Schools - little things like not even acknowledging receipt of applications from AMCAS for months - there is no legitimate excuse. But if applicants think that the AAMC Code of Conduct for Applicants means absolutely nothing - we applicants don't have much higher moral ground to stand on, do we?

By the way, you promised to abide by the Code of Conduct for Applicants when you submitted your AMCAS. Which won't get you sent to jail for violating - it's just that truthiness thing.

Oh PLEASE! Get off your freaking soap box!!! So many people on these forums are so self-righteous. Honestly, maybe the kid wants to get into a school! So, he feels that writing a LOI to the three schools he is waitlisted out might help. I support his actions because the end is to get into medical school. Regardless of the example given above, I highly DOUBT most (if not all) medical schools care about someone backing out if they sent this "important" LOI. They have thousands of other people waiting online for an acceptance.


* Zoom Zoom...maybe he really doesn't know what to do in this case....dick

I do happen to agree with BMWM3 though. You do not want to hurt a future applicant. Like I said before though, I doubt that it would happen at the majority of med schools.

 

[Its_MurDAH]

haha for real

It seems like non-trad tulsa is just jealous that he didnt think of this idea or something. Let the guy write a million letter of intents what the hell do you care?

Even if you were waitlisted at the same schools, I would side with the OP. Atleast he is doing everything possible...

All this talk of loyalty and integrity bull**** went out the window when so many medical schools that I applied to happily cashed all of my secondary checks and never bothered to update me on my status.

 

[sscooterguy]

The letter of intent is not legally binding. Nor is it unethical to back out afterwards. There are all sorts of considerations once you have a choice between schools. I sent letters of intent to all of my schools. Had I gotten into one, it would have been my top choice, as stated in my letters. However, once I got into several schools, I had a choice to make, and a lot of considerations to keep in mind. My "top choice" quickly moved down when I was waitlisted. Other choices moved up because of acceptance without waitlist. Even after I had multiple acceptances, things changed because of scholarships offered, one school offered in state status, another offered funding, etc. I would have gone to any one of them had they been my only choice. I ended up turning down my top choice because they decided to accept me off of their waitlist in August, 2 weeks before classes started, because another school offered me scholarships and in state residency, etc.

Now I DID do the ethical thing concerning multiple acceptances. Once you get multiple acceptances, you have up to 2 weeks to make a decision and go with one. You get 2 weeks for each subsequent offer if they come up. I turned all down as soon as I made my choice amongst the schools. That way they could offer the spot to other students.

People need to get off their soap boxes about this. Once you're in med school, and getting ready for the match, you'll see how institutions will tell you they will definately rank you very high, then after the match, you're left to scramble. It has happened to some good friends of mine. They will lie to you, go behind your back, etc. All I'm saying is be moral, but watch out for yourself too. You may find yourself with out any med school acceptances, or just as bad, without a residency.

 

[BMW M3]

Oh PLEASE! Get off your freaking soap box!!! So many people on these forums are so self-righteous. Honestly, maybe the kid wants to get into a school! So, he feels that writing a LOI to the three schools he is waitlisted out might help. I support his actions because the end is to get into medical school. Regardless of the example given above, I highly DOUBT most (if not all) medical schools care about someone backing out if they sent this "important" LOI. They have thousands of other people waiting online for an acceptance.


* Zoom Zoom...maybe he really doesn't know what to do in this case....dick

I do happen to agree with BMWM3 though. You do not want to hurt a future applicant. Like I said before though, I doubt that it would happen at the majority of med schools.

 

[USArmyDoc]

Oh and btw....I sent out a LOI to the school I interviewed at and IF my top choice invites me for an interview they will be getting one to. Sorry NontradTulsa, I want to get into medical school and will be as proactive as possible. With that being said, if I dislike the school I wouldn't send one. But if I had ANY inkling that I would go there....A letter will be out in the mail three days after interview...TOPS

 

[ghostchild]

I've got to agree with the last few. Write all the LOIs you want. Even feel free to put a spin on it. Don't say that you will definitely attend if you don't want, just say it would be an honor to be accepted ...., school is your first choice (it could be at any given time and you can change your mind), and even feel free to mix this all up somewhere in an update letter. You could always go back and say that you obligated yourself to another school that notified you earlier or there was some kind of financial reality that wouldn't allow you to attend their school.

Being accepted is all about politics and if you're borderline I would rather send LOIs to 30 schools rather than going through the application process another year to show my devotion to the school and to medicine. There's somebody else out there that's doing just that to get ahead.

Yes, as bad as it sounds, I'd rather not spend another $1000 and an extra year of life even if it is harder for somebody from my undergrad institution to get into school X. If the Admissions Committe is that vindictive, I wouldn't want to go there anyway. They have another hundred people waiting to take the spot. All this said, I didn't send out any LOIs.

 

[robotsonic]

Ok fine, the application process is difficult and you are all very stressed and you really want to go to med school... but it is way too early in your career to be giving up your integrity. For the sake of your own integrity, do not write a letter of intent to more than one school. It is fine to write updates to all of the schools, letting them know how happy you would be to attend and what an awesome student you will be if they accept you, but it isn't ok to lie and say that you will definitely attend if given an acceptance.

This will come up again when you are applying to residency programs. I am applying now, and I have one program that is clearly my favorite - and I told them that. I told the other programs that I would be a great match for their program and that I would be honored to train there - which is true - but never promised that I would rank them first. There is a distinction, and it's important to me to maintain my personal moral code.

 

[USArmyDoc]

I've got to agree with the last few. Write all the LOIs you want. Even feel free to put a spin on it. Don't say that you will definitely attend if you don't want, just say it would be an honor to be accepted ...., school is your first choice (it could be at any given time and you can change your mind), and even feel free to mix this all up somewhere in an update letter. You could always go back and say that you obligated yourself to another school that notified you earlier or there was some kind of financial reality that wouldn't allow you to attend their school.

Being accepted is all about politics and if you're borderline I would rather send LOIs to 30 schools rather than going through the application process another year to show my devotion to the school and to medicine. There's somebody else out there that's doing just that to get ahead.

Yes, as bad as it sounds, I'd rather not spend another $1000 and an extra year of life even if it is harder for somebody from my undergrad institution to get into school X. If the Admissions Committe is that vindictive, I wouldn't want to go there anyway. They have another hundred people waiting to take the spot. All this said, I didn't send out any LOIs.

That is what I did. I ended it by saying that I hope to have the opportunity to study medicine at XYZ School of Medicine. I forget how I ended it for sure but I never put in there that if accepted I would definitely attend.

Robotsonic...Personally, I do not feel that I am giving up my integrity. I feel that I am being as proactive as possible. I want committees to know that I want to attend medical school. Each update letter I write has a spin special to that school. Sorry, I just don't feel I am losing any integrity.

 

[cadilakgrl]

if you write a LOI then go back on you word, i don't think you would be able to get into a residency program at that institution. just something to think about if you would consider that school for residency down the line. i highly doubt they would take someone who compromised their integrity and morals. my opinion is write the LOI to the school you want to go to the most and leave it at that. if you're going to write one to all three be very careful in how you word it.

 

[BobBarker]

Couldn't you write a letter of intent to all 3 basically saying, "if accepted, you would attend, you're my top choice" blah blah blah, and then as soon as you get your 1st acceptance immediatly withdraw all remaining open applications? I don't see that as ethically wrong. You are basically on the waiver wire waiting for someone to pick you up. Once picked your off the market.

 

[pattayapus]

The letter of intent is not legally binding. Nor is it unethical to back out afterwards. There are all sorts of considerations once you have a choice between schools. I sent letters of intent to all of my schools. Had I gotten into one, it would have been my top choice, as stated in my letters. However, once I got into several schools, I had a choice to make, and a lot of considerations to keep in mind. My "top choice" quickly moved down when I was waitlisted. Other choices moved up because of acceptance without waitlist. Even after I had multiple acceptances, things changed because of scholarships offered, one school offered in state status, another offered funding, etc. I would have gone to any one of them had they been my only choice. I ended up turning down my top choice because they decided to accept me off of their waitlist in August, 2 weeks before classes started, because another school offered me scholarships and in state residency, etc.

Now I DID do the ethical thing concerning multiple acceptances. Once you get multiple acceptances, you have up to 2 weeks to make a decision and go with one. You get 2 weeks for each subsequent offer if they come up. I turned all down as soon as I made my choice amongst the schools. That way they could offer the spot to other students.

People need to get off their soap boxes about this. Once you're in med school, and getting ready for the match, you'll see how institutions will tell you they will definately rank you very high, then after the match, you're left to scramble. It has happened to some good friends of mine. They will lie to you, go behind your back, etc. All I'm saying is be moral, but watch out for yourself too. You may find yourself with out any med school acceptances, or just as bad, without a residency.

hi, sscooterguy, thanks for the comment. i have a quick question: are you really supposed to pick between multiple acceptances within 2 weeks? i thought you could hold all the acceptances you want until May 15, after which you can only hold one...is the 2-week thing you mentioned only a matter of courtesy? i mean, i'll probably do it anyway, but i'd like to know if i have to...

thanks!

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

That was the strongest post I've ever made on SDN - probably too strong. But, are we talking about a Letter of Interest or a Letter of Intent? When I hear "Letter of Intent," I'm not thinking of a letter that says "I really like your school and am still very interested in attending." I'd send those to all of my top choices where I was waitlisted - there's absolutely nothing wrong with that (and if you didn't make firm promises, I owe you an apology, ArmyDoc - that's not what I assumed the OP meant due to the context). To me, a Letter of Intent says "I will commit to enrolling at your school if you accept me." I think you can only write one of those making a firm promise to enroll - until that school turns you down. I apologize about the tone and causing offense (or even just annoyance), but I do think multiple letters are unethical if a firm promise is made - maybe not just because of the school's sensibilities, but because of the poor applicant who just sent one firm-promise LOI to his/her top choice and therefore didn't get as much of a leg-up. If we were talking about Letters of Interest all along, I'm way off-base.

 

[yellowpersuazio]

That is what I did. I ended it by saying that I hope to have the opportunity to study medicine at XYZ School of Medicine. I forget how I ended it for sure but I never put in there that if accepted I would definitely attend.

Robotsonic...Personally, I do not feel that I am giving up my integrity. I feel that I am being as proactive as possible. I want committees to know that I want to attend medical school. Each update letter I write has a spin special to that school. Sorry, I just don't feel I am losing any integrity.

Whoa there...first you call the poster self-righteous for disagreeing with writing letters of intent to more than one school, but in the end, you're only agreeing with him. It seems that you might not be able to distinguish between a letter of INTENT from a letter of INTEREST. What you're talking about is a letter of INTEREST, which I think is fine to send out to all schools. A letter of intent is supposed to specifically state that if you were to be given an acceptance to a particular school, that you would retract your applications from all other schools and attend (thus why it is called a letter of INTENT). You're talking about writing letters of interest which, although declares your high interest of the particular school, does not in any way depict that you will definately matriculate if given the option.

Although it might increase your chances of matriculating somewhere, writing multiple letters of intent is kinda tacky. If you think that is the only way you can gain acceptance, by all means take the route. But, if you feel that you have to explain how you still have integrity afterwards, it only shows that you have guilt.

 

[KevinZ]

I think some confusion needs to be cleared up because a lot of people here are discussing letters of interest, not letters of intent.

Letters of interest: Your school is great, I think I'd be a great fit, I can't wait to hear if I got in.

Letters of intent: I WILL go to your school if you accept me and I will withdraw all my other offers.

I'd say that anything in-between those two counts as a letter of interest since the full commitment is not there. Backing out of a letter of interest doesn't mean much and is pretty easy since no promise is made, but I think backing out of a letter of intent is unethical and lying.

Some people said they'll do whatever it takes to get in and Letters of intent don't hurt anyone. That's not true. They hurt the kids who have the integrity to only write one letter of intent because you're lying to get ahead on your application.

 

[robotsonic]

if you write a LOI then go back on you word, i don't think you would be able to get into a residency program at that institution. just something to think about if you would consider that school for residency down the line.

The departments that handle med school admissions and residency program admissions are completely separate, so it's highly unlikely that your residency program coordinator will know anything about your old application to med school. For residency programs, applications go through the actual department in the area in which you are applying - for example, general surgery, ob/gyn, neuro, medicine, etc - and not through the med school admissions office.

Just wanted to clarify that.

USarmydoc: As others mentioned, you are writing letters of interest, which are perfectly fine. I can't imagine why anyone would think it unethical for you to tell a program that you liked them.

 

[sscooterguy]

hi, sscooterguy, thanks for the comment. i have a quick question: are you really supposed to pick between multiple acceptances within 2 weeks? i thought you could hold all the acceptances you want until May 15, after which you can only hold one...is the 2-week thing you mentioned only a matter of courtesy? i mean, i'll probably do it anyway, but i'd like to know if i have to...

thanks!

I was referring to acceptances AFTER the may 15 date. After that date is when you have 2 week windows. Before that you can hold as many acceptances as you get, but I also tried to make a decision in a timely fashion.

sscooterguy

 

[busthwt]

I doubt that a LOI will legally bind you from backing out. When someone is waitlisted they will send LOI to the schools. But once your enrolled for classes to a particular school, than your legally binded to attend that school.

 

[USArmyDoc]

That was the strongest post I've ever made on SDN - probably too strong. But, are we talking about a Letter of Interest or a Letter of Intent? When I hear "Letter of Intent," I'm not thinking of a letter that says "I really like your school and am still very interested in attending." I'd send those to all of my top choices where I was waitlisted - there's absolutely nothing wrong with that (and if you didn't make firm promises, I owe you an apology, ArmyDoc - that's not what I assumed the OP meant due to the context). To me, a Letter of Intent says "I will commit to enrolling at your school if you accept me." I think you can only write one of those making a firm promise to enroll - until that school turns you down. I apologize about the tone and causing offense (or even just annoyance), but I do think multiple letters are unethical if a firm promise is made - maybe not just because of the school's sensibilities, but because of the poor applicant who just sent one firm-promise LOI to his/her top choice and therefore didn't get as much of a leg-up. If we were talking about Letters of Interest all along, I'm way off-base.

Maybe I am confusing a Letter of Interest with a Letter of Intent. I just tell that I would love to be accepted at XYZ School Medicine.

yellowpersuazio: That is how I word my letters. If the OP wants to write a stronger Intent letter by all means I support his actions.

 

[Depakote]

A letter of intent may not be "legally" binding, but med schools aren't "legally" bound to accept you. If schools find out that you promised to go to more than one school, they will ALL reject you. Then you are penultimately SOL.

This is more than enough grounds for a school to retract an acceptance.

 

[yellowpersuazio]

Maybe I am confusing a Letter of Interest with a Letter of Intent. I just tell that I would love to be accepted at XYZ School Medicine.

yellowpersuazio: That is how I word my letters. If the OP wants to write a stronger Intent letter by all means I support his actions.

If the OP is really talking about writing letter of INTENT, I'm not sure if you would support it since you, yourself, said you would never write a letter promising to attend one school if they accepted you.

 

[USArmyDoc]

If the OP is really talking about writing letter of INTENT, I'm not sure if you would support it since you, yourself, said you would never write a letter promising to attend one school if they accepted you.

I don't remember saying I would never write a letter promising I would attend if accepted. I said I don't write my letters that way. In addition, I also said I wouldn't write the letter to a school I KNOW I would never want to attend. Nevertheless, to clarify my ambiguous statments let me say the following. I SUPPORT the OP's actions to write as many Letter of Intents/Interests to the schools he is waitlisted at. He is being proactive and I hope it works. Honestly, if I was waitlisted at three schools I would do the same. Of course, this is assuming I would want to attend.

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

This is the most ridiculous thread of all time. Talk about the blind leading the blind...

 

[USArmyDoc]

This is the most ridiculous thread of all time. Talk about the blind leading the blind...

 

[Conqueror]

LASurfer, there is no way that a LOI is legally binding. No worries about that. Heck, it's only your word, your signature, and your honor. In fact, since you're writing a letter promising your loyalty to the school, it's kind of a written handshake on a very personal level. If the end justifies the means and your integrity means nothing to you - well, by all means...

Get over yourself, you're not George Washington and you don't have to pledge your life, your fortune, and your sacred honor to a medical school. Med school applications are nothing more than a high-stakes game, and should be treated as such. You're not pledging fealty to a feudal lord here.

Writing a LOI and backing out is no more unethical than holding a spot after an acceptance. When you hold a spot, you tell a school you're coming and give them a deposit. If you withdraw, you're backing out of that agreement. Probably 99% of accepted applicants do this to at least one school. It's not unethical.

CQ

 

[Depakote]

Get over yourself, you're not George Washington and you don't have to pledge your life, your fortune, and your sacred honor to a medical school. Med school applications are nothing more than a high-stakes game, and should be treated as such. You're not pledging fealty to a feudal lord here.

Writing a LOI and backing out is no more unethical than holding a spot after an acceptance. When you hold a spot, you tell a school you're coming and give them a deposit. If you withdraw, you're backing out of that agreement. Probably 99% of accepted applicants do this to at least one school. It's not unethical.

CQ

Well putting the issue of unethical medicine aside. You screw a med school, they will screw you back.

 

[deleted77919]

If you withdraw, you're backing out of that agreement. Probably 99% of accepted applicants do this to at least one school. It's not unethical.

CQ

I saw a stat (can't remember where exactly, but seemed reputable at the time) that 60% of people in med school attend the only school to which they were accepted.

 

[sscooterguy]

I doubt that a LOI will legally bind you from backing out. When someone is waitlisted they will send LOI to the schools. But once your enrolled for classes to a particular school, than your legally binded to attend that school.

If you mean once you START classes, yes, you are correct, you cannot accept any other school's offer if they happen to start at a later date. In fact, I don't think they are allowed to offer once you start the first class. However, I know 2 people that were offered acceptances the day BEFORE classes started, which is allowed, one accepted, one turned them down.

sscooterguy

 

[ghostchild]

To get back to the original question. Legal binding, no. Whenever a business drafts a contract it's got to be reviewed by a lawer, notarized in some cases, and a good attorney can usually still get you out of it. It's doubtful if the school would even care enough about you to try to force you to come when there's others who would love to come on the waitlist. There's no way they'd pay the legal fess to enforce this "contract."

Disrespectful, yes. But I could see why you would do this. Sure the school might not appreciate it but I highly doubt your actions would reflect upon your school or that anybody would even care. I think LOIs are meaningless anyway. If I could, I'd tell every student applying to send Letters of Intent to every school so that they eventually don't mean anything. That's such garbage to get a leg up on the competition by saying "I promise I'll come there if you accept me." But if you think it'll help, go for it. If you're worried about integrity, withdraw from all other schools after your first acceptance.

 

[sanford_w/o_son]

sending multiple letters of intent is a lie. period. implicit in telling a school that they're your "top choice" is that they are the school you would choose ahead of all those others from which an acceptance is still pending. so unless you explicitly state to them that they're the top choice of all the schools to which you've so far been accepted (which would be silly), you are lying by what you allowed to remain implicit in your statement.

if you lie in such a way the risk to you personally is an issue. and if med school slots were infinite it may not be so ethically egregious. but as it is you're compromising the school-specific acceptance of your future colleagues who write a sincere, single letter of intent that is taken less seriously because of the @ssholes who send multiple, necessarily insincere and lying ones.

imo, anyone who feels comfortable screwing over their future colleagues in this way should really question whether they sincerely wish to contribute to the betterment of other humans such as the sick, and thus whether they should enter medicine at all.

letters of interest are a different story. please just keep it sincere for everyone's sake. if everyone is sincere about what they want in a school, then more people end up at schools to which they are a better fit.

 

[Conqueror]

While telling four schools that they're all your top choice is indeed a lie, the schools lie right back to us. I'm a tour guide at Vandy, and while we don't outright lie to prospective students, neither do we give them the whole truth about the school's downsides. The same is true of medical schools. We act like they're wholly altruistic and they want nothing more than to accept everyone and educate the future noble doctors of the world and give everyone a pot of gold. The reality is that they're just like undergraduate schools: it's all a game. I say telling multiple schools they're your top choice is no more unethical than Yale telling you New Haven is an exciting place to live, or Duke saying they're at the heart of a cultural metropolis.

(hint for those who have not been: New Haven is boring and Durham is an empty ghost town of tobacco warehouses.)

CQ

 

[Centinel]

While telling four schools that they're all your top choice is indeed a lie, the schools lie right back to us. I'm a tour guide at Vandy, and while we don't outright lie to prospective students, neither do we give them the whole truth about the school's downsides. The same is true of medical schools. We act like they're wholly altruistic and they want nothing more than to accept everyone and educate the future noble doctors of the world and give everyone a pot of gold. The reality is that they're just like undergraduate schools: it's all a game. I say telling multiple schools they're your top choice is no more unethical than Yale telling you New Haven is an exciting place to live, or Duke saying they're at the heart of a cultural metropolis.

(hint for those who have not been: New Haven is boring and Durham is an empty ghost town of tobacco warehouses.)

CQ

I trust you've never been to New Haven.

 

[Conqueror]

Yes, I have, though briefly. I'm also friends with a number of their current and former students, all of whom have characterized new haven as a "****hole."

CQ

 

[ghostchild]

sending multiple letters of intent is a lie. period. implicit in telling a school that they're your "top choice" is that they are the school you would choose ahead of all those others from which an acceptance is still pending. so unless you explicitly state to them that they're the top choice of all the schools to which you've so far been accepted (which would be silly), you are lying by what you allowed to remain implicit in your statement.

if you lie in such a way the risk to you personally is an issue. and if med school slots were infinite it may not be so ethically egregious. but as it is you're compromising the school-specific acceptance of your future colleagues who write a sincere, single letter of intent that is taken less seriously because of the @ssholes who send multiple, necessarily insincere and lying ones.

You don't have to be so self-righteous. I know you'd do whatever you had to if you thought it was your only chance of acceptance as most people would. I know you'd steal before you'd starve to death. Although I do understand why you would say you are against it to sway the opinion of others.

A choice implies a state a mind. States of mind change and therefore does not imply you would choose their school ahead of all others on May 15. Your top choice in October might not be your top choice in March just as your top choice in girls/guys you want to date in 12th grade might not be the top choice you have now. Implicit statements are not legally binding. There are many more views of this forum than posts and the answer for anybody considering this, no, it is not legally binding. However, it is a lie to say that you would definitely attend if accepted because you signed you name to an action, not a state of mind.

What ethical theory do you consider this action to be "ethically egregious?" The act of writing a LOIntent and withdrawing will cause minimal pain to the school while being turned down will cause an immense amount of pain in the case of the applicant. The pleasure of this action far outweighs the possible pain. Let's use another theory, I've already stated that LOIs should not be taken seriously at medical schools and the best applicants should be chosen. So I would find it acceptable if every applicant used this action. LOIs should not be taken seriously by any schools. I find this action to be completely ethically acceptable if not desirable. And as stated before, I didn't write a LOI but I can see why a fellow applicant would.

 

[Depakote]

At what point did this become a Joke Topic?

seriously, I can't believe what some of the people here are posting...

 

[sanford_w/o_son]

You don't have to be so self-righteous. I know you'd do whatever you had to if you thought it was your only chance of acceptance as most people would. I know you'd steal before you'd starve to death. Although I do understand why you would say you are against it to sway the opinion of others.

A choice implies a state a mind. States of mind change and therefore does not imply you would choose their school ahead of all others on May 15. Your top choice in October might not be your top choice in March just as your top choice in girls/guys you want to date in 12th grade might not be the top choice you have now. Implicit statements are not legally binding. There are many more views of this forum than posts and the answer for anybody considering this, no, it is not legally binding. However, it is a lie to say that you would definitely attend if accepted because you signed you name to an action, not a state of mind.

What ethical theory do you consider this action to be "ethically egregious?" The act of writing a LOIntent and withdrawing will cause minimal pain to the school while being turned down will cause an immense amount of pain in the case of the applicant. The pleasure of this action far outweighs the possible pain. Let's use another theory, I've already stated that LOIs should not be taken seriously at medical schools and the best applicants should be chosen. So I would find it acceptable if every applicant used this action. LOIs should not be taken seriously by any schools. I find this action to be completely ethically acceptable if not desirable. And as stated before, I didn't write a LOI but I can see why a fellow applicant would.

whoa, how do you go from getting into medical school to starving to death? that analogy goes too far. in the med school scenario you outline, not only am i not entitled to getting into medical school like i'm entitled to living, but in fact if the process is fair then my rejection to a medical school in favor of a more appropriate candidate is in fact just. and i don't understand what you understand about why i'm trying to sway people in the way i am. i'm motivated by a bit of moral outrage induced by other posts, and not self-interest.

i could care less about what is legally binding and it wasn't mentioned in my post. as future professionals, we will sometimes make decisions with important consequences whose appropriate course-of-action is undefined by the law but for which there is a guide in ethics. if you (not you personally) have little inclination to think ethically, if you're first inclination is to perform an action that you can legally get away with and serve your self-interest, then i don't think you're the kind of doctor any of us would want for our family.

so, you're saying that i can tell multiple schools that they are all my "top choice" as long as i don't make an explicit commissive statement that i will actually attend the school over the others? for one thing, i believe that the word "choice" does imply intended action. but it is still logically false for multiple schools to be one's "top choice", even if it only refers to a state of mind. and since this falsehood is intentionally stated to multiple schools, it becomes a lie.

i'm definitely not using some pleasure/pain principle based my actions as a self-interested individual. it's more of a utilitarian position based on my actions as an individual whose decisions can affect other individuals. what i see as ethically egregious is deceitfully taking a slot at a med school from a candidate who is better suited for that particular school, while one waits for other acceptances. even though you eventually give up that slot, the better-suited candidate would have been rejected by then (possibly waitlisted). it's both inefficient and unjust.

i agree, especially after seeing some unethical points-of-view on this thread, that lois should not be taken seriously by med schools. but that doesn't mean that they aren't. and as long as they might be, we have an ethical responsibility to write them sincerely.

and i must wholeheartedly agree with another poster about the insincerity of schools in tending not to present negative factors about their school. but i still think there is a reasonable enough attempt to find appropriate candidates for a school that we should act ethically ourselves for the sake of our fellow candidates and not the schools.

 

[CalBoi82]

My premed advisor told me that a over a decade ago, an exceptional applicant told Columbia he would def. go there if he got in. Well, he got in, but decided to go to (not sure what school) instead.

Flash forward to 96, another exceptional applicant reallly wanted to go to Columbia. The premed advisor (columbia alumni) hand delivered the applicant's letters of recommendation to the adcom. A member of the columbia adcom pulled the file and told my advisor that the applicant will be "taken care of at another institution" so she wasn't even invited for an interview. Ie: she was rejected on the spot.

People from my undergrad have been applying to Columbia and have never since been even invited for an interview.

That's not true... I know plenty of people from your undergrad who has gotten interviews from Columbia... even this year.

 

[CalBoi82]

dup

 

[CalBoi82]

dup

 

[CalBoi82]

dup

 

[MDDM]

BMW, what's your alma mater anyway?

 

[ghostchild]

Double