LOI - Legally binding?

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sanford_w/o_son said:
whoa, how do you go from getting into medical school to starving to death? that analogy goes too far. in the med school scenario you outline, not only am i not entitled to getting into medical school like i'm entitled to living, but in fact if the process is fair then my rejection to a medical school in favor of a more appropriate candidate is in fact just. and i don't understand what you understand about why i'm trying to sway people in the way i am. i'm motivated by a bit of moral outrage induced by other posts, and not self-interest.

i could care less about what is legally binding and it wasn't mentioned in my post. as future professionals, we will sometimes make decisions with important consequences whose appropriate course-of-action is undefined by the law but for which there is a guide in ethics. if you (not you personally) have little inclination to think ethically, if you're first inclination is to perform an action that you can legally get away with and serve your self-interest, then i don't think you're the kind of doctor any of us would want for our family.

so, you're saying that i can tell multiple schools that they are all my "top choice" as long as i don't make an explicit commissive statement that i will actually attend the school over the others? for one thing, i believe that the word "choice" does imply intended action. but it is still logically false for multiple schools to be one's "top choice", even if it only refers to a state of mind. and since this falsehood is intentionally stated to multiple schools, it becomes a lie.

i'm definitely not using some pleasure/pain principle based my actions as a self-interested individual. it's more of a utilitarian position based on my actions as an individual whose decisions can affect other individuals. what i see as ethically egregious is deceitfully taking a slot at a med school from a candidate who is better suited for that particular school, while one waits for other acceptances. even though you eventually give up that slot, the better-suited candidate would have been rejected by then (possibly waitlisted). it's both inefficient and unjust.

i agree, especially after seeing some unethical points-of-view on this thread, that lois should not be taken seriously by med schools. but that doesn't mean that they aren't. and as long as they might be, we have an ethical responsibility to write them sincerely.

and i must wholeheartedly agree with another poster about the insincerity of schools in tending not to present negative factors about their school. but i still think there is a reasonable enough attempt to find appropriate candidates for a school that we should act ethically ourselves for the sake of our fellow candidates and not the schools.

Utilitarian ethics is the pleasure vs. pain ethical theory is it not?
In any case, I think it's pretty clear from the actions I have taken that I do agree with you on principle. I was just the kid that liked to argue in 2nd grade! I was just speaking to what is legally binding and I hate the fact that a LOI will give you a better chance of an acceptance. I wouldn't send one to any school out of principle, but I do think if you imply a top choice, you reserve the right to change your mind later. It's not as strong of language to include in a LOI. One may commit to a school, but does anybody have a "top choice" that doesn't flip flop from interview to interview? I know my mind changed several times on the interview trail and afterward. I also know I'd go about anywhere and be happy. My top choice will hopefully be determined by financial aid packets.
 
BMW

Please tell me you don't really believe that Columbia will outright deny any applicant from your undergrad institution because of what a couple of people did in the past. That wreaks of the undergrad premed mentality. So a qualified - even an exceptional - applicant from your school was denied an interview. Happens every day at every school in the country.

Or maybe they thought that that particular applicant was about as interesting as a pool of tapwater.
 
ghostchild said:
Utilitarian ethics is the pleasure vs. pain ethical theory is it not?
In any case, I think it's pretty clear from the actions I have taken that I do agree with you on principle. I was just the kid that liked to argue in 2nd grade! I was just speaking to what is legally binding and I hate the fact that a LOI will give you a better chance of an acceptance. I wouldn't send one to any school out of principle, but I do think if you imply a top choice, you reserve the right to change your mind later. It's not as strong of language to include in a LOI. One may commit to a school, but does anybody have a "top choice" that doesn't flip flop from interview to interview? I know my mind changed several times on the interview trail and afterward. I also know I'd go about anywhere and be happy. My top choice will hopefully be determined by financial aid packets.

It's one thing to say a school's a "top choice" in a letter, it's a completly different thing to say:

"If you let me in, i will renounce all other schools before you, I will withdraw all other applications and attend your school."

THAT is what a letter of intent says you will do. If you do that and break it, you are not only being unethical, you might find yourself without a school to attend. Don't even try to send that to more than one school.
 
Depakote said:
It's one thing to say a school's a "top choice" in a letter, it's a completly different thing to say:

"If you let me in, i will renounce all other schools before you, I will withdraw all other applications and attend your school."

THAT is what a letter of intent says you will do. If you do that and break it, you are not only being unethical, you might find yourself without a school to attend. Don't even try to send that to more than one school.

Completely agree. Once again Depakote, you took what I was trying to say and said it better!! :laugh:
 
What if you send a letter of intent but it seems like you're not going to get in after waiting for a few weeks? Can you send one to somewhere else then?
 
the financial aid issue is probably another reason not to send in a loi, if you think you might be able to get funding from the school. if you commit yourself to a school before they accept you and offer you a package, they might not offer the package after all. dunno if this happens, but it seems reasonable.

but my props to you for not sending in a loi on principle.
 
USArmyDoc said:
Oh PLEASE! Get off your freaking soap box!!! 😡 So many people on these forums are so self-righteous. Honestly, maybe the kid wants to get into a school! So, he feels that writing a LOI to the three schools he is waitlisted out might help. I support his actions because the end is to get into medical school. Regardless of the example given above, I highly DOUBT most (if not all) medical schools care about someone backing out if they sent this "important" LOI. They have thousands of other people waiting online for an acceptance.


* Zoom Zoom...maybe he really doesn't know what to do in this case....dick

I do happen to agree with BMWM3 though. You do not want to hurt a future applicant. Like I said before though, I doubt that it would happen at the majority of med schools.


Ouch. I got pwnd!

Just kidding. yeah, a Letter of Intent means you will definitely go there if you get in. Thus, you only send one. This is not a matter of interpretation, no matter how low your chances of acceptance might be. Sending more than one is kind of like proposing to more than one girl.

Letters of interest are a different story.
 
I am wondering what a completed and sent LOI looks like. Will someone PM me with a copy of theirs? I think it may be a valuable tool come April after thoughts along the interview trail are synthesized. I appreciate the efforts of our community. Good luck everyone
 
p00psicleSTICK said:
What if you send a letter of intent but it seems like you're not going to get in after waiting for a few weeks? Can you send one to somewhere else then?

anyone have any thoughts on that post?
 
UCdannyLA said:
anyone have any thoughts on that post?


i would send another letter of intent worded in a different way and hopefully more convincing

again, i dont think you can send another LOI until you are rejected from taht school
 
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i dont see the point of writing a letter of INTENT over a letter of interest. instead of saying "i WILL DEFINITELY GO THERE" which sounds overly desperate, why not just say something along the lines of "i can't imagine a better fit for myself on an academic and personal level as your school". it shows a lot more tact and exhibits a stronger sense of confidence as opposed to "oh please help this poor applicant get admitted". that's my 2 cents, for anyone who cares to listen.
-mota
 
drmota said:
i dont see the point of writing a letter of INTENT over a letter of interest. instead of saying "i WILL DEFINITELY GO THERE" which sounds overly desperate, why not just say something along the lines of "i can't imagine a better fit for myself on an academic and personal level as your school". it shows a lot more tact and exhibits a stronger sense of confidence as opposed to "oh please help this poor applicant get admitted". that's my 2 cents, for anyone who cares to listen.
-mota

Wow, I actually disagree with Mota on something. A letter of INTENT can be a great strategic move for someone who is on the bubble. If it comes down to two nearly identical candidates on the waitlist or someone who is having a decision made about them and the argument may go to acceptance/waitlist, schools like to hear that they're not going to have to worry about re-filling that spot down the line. In the end, they're insecure too.
 
Hey guys, I had a similar question that I figured I would post here since this thread had so much activity...

I was just waitlisted from one of my top picks for medical school and my waitlist packet included a postcard for me to return in a timely fashion. The postcard works like this: you check a box if you desire to be on the waitlist (which I certainly do), sign underneath, and then provide contact information. In addition, the letter that came with the postcard says that if this institution is your first choice, you may also signify this on the postcard.

As of right now (seeing as I haven't heard financial info from anyone or even heard decisions from some schools) this school is nearly certainly my first choice. However, there is the possibility Harvard or Hopkins could grant me admission down the road, which would make me reconsider my first-choice decision.

I was wondering that if the act of signing your name on a waitlist postcard that also had "top choice" written on it by you, if it would bind you to attend that school. Or, would you still be free to go elsewhere if something else came up (new admission, great financial package, or just found out something good/bad about a school that changed your mind.)

Just confused 😕 and looking for suggestions...
 
ArizonaFan said:
Hey guys, I had a similar question that I figured I would post here since this thread had so much activity...

I was just waitlisted from one of my top picks for medical school and my waitlist packet included a postcard for me to return in a timely fashion. The postcard works like this: you check a box if you desire to be on the waitlist (which I certainly do), sign underneath, and then provide contact information. In addition, the letter that came with the postcard says that if this institution is your first choice, you may also signify this on the postcard.

As of right now (seeing as I haven't heard financial info from anyone or even heard decisions from some schools) this school is nearly certainly my first choice. However, there is the possibility Harvard or Hopkins could grant me admission down the road, which would make me reconsider my first-choice decision.

I was wondering that if the act of signing your name on a waitlist postcard that also had "top choice" written on it by you, if it would bind you to attend that school. Or, would you still be free to go elsewhere if something else came up (new admission, great financial package, or just found out something good/bad about a school that changed your mind.)

Just confused 😕 and looking for suggestions...


hahah arizona i have seen you post and kill two threads so far so i will attempt to give you advice. check your pm
 
I think Letters of Intent/Interest/other a$$-kissing is total crap. Why do we again have to prove we want to go to said med school. You know, because countless hours spent on pointless application essays, thousands of dollars in application fees, and spending ridiculous amounts of time and money on interviews doesn't already show we want to go to med school. Nope, instead we gotta add more bull**** in the hopes that will finally put us over the top. It's all a contest to see who sounds more desperate. I wanna see letters from med schools to me. How about "We, XYZ medical school, will not hesitate to accept you if you apply"? Wouldn't that be wonderful.

All the above being said, I'm still forced to write those damn letters like everyone else. And hey, I say write as many letters of intent as you want. Especially if it's for schools that waitlisted you. If one of those schools accepts you, great! Then you can withdraw everywhere else, even if you sent them an intent letter. I mean, they haven't accepted you, so you're not going back on your word. You told them you would definitely attend if accepted. If that's ethically questionable, oh well. Definitely beats sitting around till mid August clinging to that one school who probably won't accept you in the end anyways.
 
Starvin Marvin said:
I think Letters of Intent/Interest/other a$$-kissing is total crap. Why do we again have to prove we want to go to said med school. You know, because countless hours spent on pointless application essays, thousands of dollars in application fees, and spending ridiculous amounts of time and money on interviews doesn't already show we want to go to med school. Nope, instead we gotta add more bull**** in the hopes that will finally put us over the top. It's all a contest to see who sounds more desperate. I wanna see letters from med schools to me. How about "We, XYZ medical school, will not hesitate to accept you if you apply"? Wouldn't that be wonderful.

All the above being said, I'm still forced to write those damn letters like everyone else. And hey, I say write as many letters of intent as you want. Especially if it's for schools that waitlisted you. If one of those schools accepts you, great! Then you can withdraw everywhere else, even if you sent them an intent letter. I mean, they haven't accepted you, so you're not going back on your word. You told them you would definitely attend if accepted. If that's ethically questionable, oh well. Definitely beats sitting around till mid August clinging to that one school who probably won't accept you in the end anyways.

Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is. Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.
 
ghostchild said:
To get back to the original question. Legal binding, no. Whenever a business drafts a contract it's got to be reviewed by a lawer, notarized in some cases, and a good attorney can usually still get you out of it. It's doubtful if the school would even care enough about you to try to force you to come when there's others who would love to come on the waitlist. There's no way they'd pay the legal fess to enforce this "contract."

While I agree with your underlying point, I have to dispute your concept of what makes something legally binding. Many many contracts are written by people every day without lawyers involved. You enter a contract every time you purchase something at a store or sign a credit card slip. Notarization is not required to make a contract. Whether you can get out of the contract depends on a lot of things, but tends to hinge on how well the contract is drafted, and whether the terms are reasonable and capable of being enforced. Technically, if you send someone a letter (contract), offering that if you accept me to your school, I will come and will pay your tuition, and they return a letter, email or phone call saying "I accept", you have satisfied all the terms you would need for a binding contract -- very first year law school stuff.
So you are liable. But what are their damage? Almost nothing -- They fill the same spot off the waitlist. Is it worth it for them to enforce the contract against you? Of course not.
So my conclusion is that it is legally enforceable, but certainly never enforced. It is absolutely unethical, though -- you have shown you are not a man/woman of your words. Since integrity is important to a profession (some would argue they are close to synonyms), this will not bode well for you, and if other schools found out (it's a small world), this could cost you. At any rate, there will be folks out there who think less of you and perhaps your school (as you reflect upon them).
 
sanford_w/o_son said:
Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed that is. Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

Maybe I'm an idiot ..... but huh?
 
Starvin Marvin said:
If that's ethically questionable, oh well. Definitely beats sitting around till mid August clinging to that one school who probably won't accept you in the end anyways.

Told you did I, reckless is he![sighs]Now, matters are worse.

Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you.

The boy you trained - gone, he is; consumed by Darth Vader.

Into exile I must go; failed I have.
 
Law2Doc said:
While I agree with your underlying point, I have to dispute your concept of what makes something legally binding. Many many contracts are written by people every day without lawyers involved. You enter a contract every time you purchase something at a store or sign a credit card slip. Notarization is not required to make a contract. Whether you can get out of the contract depends on a lot of things, but tends to hinge on how well the contract is drafted, and whether the terms are reasonable and capable of being enforced. Technically, if you send someone a letter (contract), offering that if you accept me to your school, I will come and will pay your tuition, and they return a letter, email or phone call saying "I accept", you have satisfied all the terms you would need for a binding contract -- very first year law school stuff.
So you are liable. But what are their damage? Almost nothing -- They fill the same spot off the waitlist. Is it worth it for them to enforce the contract against you? Of course not.
So my conclusion is that it is legally enforceable, but certainly never enforced. It is absolutely unethical, though -- you have shown you are not a man/woman of your words. Since integrity is important to a profession (some would argue they are close to synonyms), this will not bode well for you, and if other schools found out (it's a small world), this could cost you. At any rate, there will be folks out there who think less of you and perhaps your school (as you reflect upon them).
Thorough (and correct) analysis, and well written.
 
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Law2Doc said:
While I agree with your underlying point, I have to dispute your concept of what makes something legally binding. Many many contracts are written by people every day without lawyers involved. You enter a contract every time you purchase something at a store or sign a credit card slip. Notarization is not required to make a contract. Whether you can get out of the contract depends on a lot of things, but tends to hinge on how well the contract is drafted, and whether the terms are reasonable and capable of being enforced. Technically, if you send someone a letter (contract), offering that if you accept me to your school, I will come and will pay your tuition, and they return a letter, email or phone call saying "I accept", you have satisfied all the terms you would need for a binding contract -- very first year law school stuff.
So you are liable. But what are their damage? Almost nothing -- They fill the same spot off the waitlist. Is it worth it for them to enforce the contract against you? Of course not.
So my conclusion is that it is legally enforceable, but certainly never enforced. It is absolutely unethical, though -- you have shown you are not a man/woman of your words. Since integrity is important to a profession (some would argue they are close to synonyms), this will not bode well for you, and if other schools found out (it's a small world), this could cost you. At any rate, there will be folks out there who think less of you and perhaps your school (as you reflect upon them).

🙄 😴
 
sanford_w/o_son said:
Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.

To do this, you'd have to stop caring about whether you got into medical school or not.
 
Law2Doc said:
sorrry... 😕


LOL....No harm Law2Doc. My only problem with what you said was that its hard to sit around and wait to get off a waitlist when its your only shot. I understand there are ethical codes to follow. However, everyone else must understand that the people who are on waitlists have the same drive and determination as those who are accepted. Therefore, its tough. So, if a LOI is going to get me into a school well then......

Sorry if I am unethical and therefore a derelict to the profession.
 
ok. how about this: you interview at one of your 2 dream schools like a top-5-all-time-all-star-reach school (you almost fell out of your chair when you got the invite). (you're a reapplicant. you kinda think it must have been a processing error). you write a letter of intent (if you accept me, i am coming) bc you genuinely adore the school and think it would be a great fit for what you want to do in life. you want to end up there more than life itself.

and then outta nowhere the other one of the two top 5 dream schools invites you for an interview! this time you really do fall out of your chair. the unimaginable has happened. you thought you were wasting money for sh*ts and giggles when you applied to these insane schools after getting in nowhere last year.

and then...you remember...you wrote a damn LOI to the first one. bc you never imagined something better/as good would come along...not in your kinkiest wildest fantasies.

you go to the other interview. you love the school. you think you might love the school more than the first one and your interviewers seemed to like you too.

and now you wait. and a tiny bit you secretly thinks that it would be ok if the LOI school doesn't admit you. bc then you wouldn't have to think about how/if to get out of that letter should you get into the other one. (you regularly pinch yourself because you can't believe that life has suddenly gotten so great that this is your big problem).

clearly there's a chance that this point is moot bc i may get only one, or nothin. but hypothetically what do you think -- any way to gracefully unwind that LOI if i need to? it was an earnest error. i never would have believed that i'd get interviews at either of these, let alone both.

i am in elsewhere, if that matters.
 
If you write an LOI to one school, don't get accepted there, but do get accepted somewhere else, it is perfectly fine to go to the school that you've been accepted to and withdraw from the school that was your first choice. That is different from writing an LOI, getting an acceptance and then holding out for the other school that was really your favorite (eventually rescinding the acceptance when accepted to first choice).
 
Conqueror said:
While telling four schools that they're all your top choice is indeed a lie, the schools lie right back to us. I'm a tour guide at Vandy, and while we don't outright lie to prospective students, neither do we give them the whole truth about the school's downsides. The same is true of medical schools. We act like they're wholly altruistic and they want nothing more than to accept everyone and educate the future noble doctors of the world and give everyone a pot of gold. The reality is that they're just like undergraduate schools: it's all a game. I say telling multiple schools they're your top choice is no more unethical than Yale telling you New Haven is an exciting place to live, or Duke saying they're at the heart of a cultural metropolis.

(hint for those who have not been: New Haven is boring and Durham is an empty ghost town of tobacco warehouses.)

CQ

lol
 
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