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Low dose 'roids. Are they safe?

Discussion in 'Anesthesiology' started by Strength&Speed, Jun 13, 2008.

  1. Strength&Speed

    Strength&Speed Need more speed......
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    What do you guys think. And by safe...I mean...not infertile, and not having a premature heart attack (before let's say 60). I'll accept a small increase in liver tumors and the like.
     
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  3. jetproppilot

    jetproppilot Turboprop Driver
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    Depends on which one you're taking.

    Steroids with a high androgenic profile adds a sinister lipid profile to your physiology.

    Even low dose testosterone (like 200mg/week) will alter your lipid profile.

    I think one could do 200mg IM/week of decadurabolin until death without adverse physiologic consequences.

    High anabolic/low androgenic profile.

    Problem now is all the media hype about professional athlete use has entrained the government into meticulous enforcement.

    Not worth it in my book.

    Maybe we should move to Mexico for a cuppla years and come back at around 280 with 5% bodyfat, huh Strength?:D

    I should be able to make enough down there to buy food, shelter, and gear, HUH?
     
  4. Strength&Speed

    Strength&Speed Need more speed......
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    when you say "not worth it". Do you mean the gov't enforcement is too stiff to be worth trying? Or that roids itself aren't worth the health consequences?

    Absolutely, i'll go down to mexico and get monstrously huge. I don't have anything better goin on right now :)
     
  5. cockblockandrun

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    Monstrously huge AND small nuts.... what happens when you are with a girl and she screams at your tiny sack?
     
  6. Strength&Speed

    Strength&Speed Need more speed......
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    I'll scream too
     
  7. jetproppilot

    jetproppilot Turboprop Driver
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    I'm saying that if you're educated enough, you can alter your physique drastically using anabolic steroids with very low physiologic risk.

    But in this country, current day, if you are buying steroids, you mind as well be buying cocaine.

    So its not worth the risk of screwing up your career, especially in our line of work.

    Hell, to tell you the truth, instead of my current 210-220 frame, if noone cared, I'd weigh around 270 right now.

    I could cherry pick the anabolics and minimize my risk. Draw monthly lipid profile/LFTs.

    But that aint reality in the USA current day.

    Twenty years ago noone cared.

    Everyone in the US cares now.

    Now if I was a anesthesiologist living in Mexico,

    the light would disappear when I walked into a room.:lol:
     
  8. Strength&Speed

    Strength&Speed Need more speed......
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    that's what I suspected. I honestly think you could probably get away with low dose stuff and be generally fine. That is, if you don't mind a small gamble. Which i don't. JPP- you might get to be a 250 monster with low physiologic risk, but 270? that light eclipsing figure might have some problems living past 55 :) That is, if you care...a lot of guys wouldnt. :)
     
  9. jetproppilot

    jetproppilot Turboprop Driver
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    I'd take the tradeoff for a 270 pound frame.

    I don't think theres many girls out there that care about the size of your sac. :laugh:
     
  10. jetproppilot

    jetproppilot Turboprop Driver
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    OK.

    250.

    I'll take 250.:thumbup:
     
  11. Strength&Speed

    Strength&Speed Need more speed......
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    WOW. 10 views and 9 posts. The highest post/view ratio ever. The Monsters want to be heard

    mexico JPP. we'll find some mexican honey pots while we're down there
     
  12. jetproppilot

    jetproppilot Turboprop Driver
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    I'll defer all of them to you, Dude, bring my S.O. with me, and we'll return looking like a cousin of Dorian Yates.
     
    #11 jetproppilot, Jun 13, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2008
  13. IctalSmile

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    Yeah dude....big taters only make the steak look smaller!
     
  14. cfdavid

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    This is a legitimate thread. For me, this is more intellectual. I wouldn't do anything unless I was commited, had the resources to do it right, and if it was a priority in my life (which it's not right now).

    Anybody remember Dan Duchane?? He wrote the Steroid Bible back in the day. Incidentally, he's dead now, but not sure how he died.

    Regarding testicular atrophy, there's hCG, and even Clomid post-cycle.


    On a related subject, I will definitely supplement Testosterone (again, with any supplementals such as aromitase inhibitors etc. that may be necessary) down the road as the T levels drop off. In other words, bringing them back up to 20's-30's levels when I'm 60 or so.

    If done intelligently, I agree that risks can be greatly mitigated.


    O.K. back to USMLE World. Taking Step I in 13 days.
     
  15. amyl

    amyl ASA Member
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    good luck! :luck::luck::luck:

    in addition to testicular atrophy -- don't forget acne and behavioral change --
    unfortunately, there are no short cuts.
     
  16. cfdavid

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    Thanks.
     
  17. Bertelman

    Bertelman Maverick!
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    Out of curiosity, does anyone believe using steroids to increase muscle mass is at all similar to using Synthroid or laxatives for anorexics? Is this another form of body dysmorphic d/o?
     
  18. cfdavid

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    Personally, it's probably all relative to the extent. Trying to look like Lee Haney may be excessive. But, trying to bulk up a bit and increase lean body mass in a hurry, probably not.
     
  19. Strength&Speed

    Strength&Speed Need more speed......
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    Interesting thread. What do you guys think about GH?
     
  20. Josh L.Ac.

    Josh L.Ac. MSA/LAc & BSN/RN --> AA-S
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    Dan Duchane had the best cutting diet I have ever seen profiled in his book Body Opus - http://www.qfac.com/books/bodyopus_3.html

    [edit - also here - http://www.amazon.com/Underground-Bodyopus-Militant-Weight-Recomposition/dp/0965310701/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213470152&sr=8-2 ]

    Disclaimer: my n is small for those that I knew that used this diet al la natural or with gear, but every single person that stuck to the diet was shredded. I never had the opportunity to try it since I was on a "bulking cycle" for about 10 years [135 lbs --> 225], but I am toying with the idea of trying it before AA school.



    [Edit - decided to buy the book and get to work. Damn Amazon Prime with the free 2-day shipping!]
     
    #19 Josh L.Ac., Jun 14, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  21. Noyac

    Noyac ASA Member
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    This is a subject that has weighed on my mind for the past few years. What with the baseball thing and all. I believe you can safely use these "DRUGS" as with any drugs but there are consequences. First is the one JPP mentioned, public opinion, thanks MLB. By the way, steroids were around when I was playing, a long time ago. Second, the altered reality. I feel anyone taking these drugs begin to see their changes less and less and then want more and more. It is the psychologic part of mind that starts to ignore the changes or not accept the changes and wants more. I believe most people can't control this. Its just like trying fentanyl for the first time and then thinking that you can control it. Maybe some people can control it, I just haven't really met any of these folks. Third, they are dangerous when used recreationally, which is what we are talking about. The problem is that the dangers are so far from our everyday reality that we don't believe they will happen to us. For example if you use testosterone you dramatically increase your risk of prostate cancer. If every man lived to be 100yrs old there would be something like a 90% or greater chance of prostate cancer in us. Well throw some testosterone in the mix and now you get it at 60 yrs. not worth it. Personally, I want and expect my pecker to be fully functional at 60, 70, and until I die (maybe a stretch at the end but in my current state of health, very possible).

    Now personally, I don't understand the MASSIVE look. I don't think it looks good. I have no problem with big but massive is another monster.:laugh: You can't expect to live a as long as someone with good physical conditioning if thats at all something you are interested in. Plus I have not met anyone (maybe one or two exceptions) weighing over 210 that can keep up with me and my buds. Got a local snowboarding dude that wanted to be a professional wrestler (I don't know why) he can ride the **** out of a snowboard but in the backcountry where it all counts he gets his arse handed to him. To say that you would give up 10-15 years of your life to be big right now is rediculous. When your kids are your age and the grandkids are all over you and life has become a very pleasant array of family and friends, you want those days to last as long as possible. Then ask yourself at this time, "was the steroids worth it?" Chances are they weren't.

    Natural is the way to go.

    Plus I can't afford to carry all that extra muscle around. I need lean but solid, highly aerobic muscles. I know I can get this with these drugs but then again were does it end for me. I am 6'0" 185 lbs, no slouch. This is perfect for me. Six pack abs, solid legs, big arms, around 8% body fat (I like beer and vodka) and they all work very well. You start to lift to get bigger and your joints start to fail. Now you are 60 yrs old and you can't walk or lift your grandson because your joints hurt too much. That ain't livin. I work out but not with heavy weight any longer. I do high reps and on the anaroebic threshold. My workouts are for a reason and it ain't to get big. Plus my wife will tell me when I am getting too big. :D

    Sorry for the long winded soap box. Hope it helps some of you. For the rest, I'll take your beer when your gone.

    PS: I like guiness and the mexican colas
     
    #20 Noyac, Jun 14, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2008
  22. Noyac

    Noyac ASA Member
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    Let me add something. I know, you thinking, "what more can he add to that babble?"

    I think there is a place for most of these drugs, HGH, Testo, Anabolics. But that place is not in the recreational environment. I believe it is for the geriatrics.
     
  23. cfdavid

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    This is more what I'm thinking. Granted, I don't have time right now to investigate all of the risk/benefits of supplementation later down the road, if in fact T-levels drop off substantially enough to negatively impact one's life, I'll stay open to using this method of pharmacotherapy if/when the time comes.

    Noy, one thing you mentioned about Testosterone and Prostate Cancer; I'm pretty sure T-levels are NOT a risk factor for GETTING prostate cancer, but rather is contraindicated once one HAS prostate cancer. At least this is what the recent research has born out.

    ****I'll post a study later, when I have more time.
     
  24. cfdavid

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18362481?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    CONCLUSIONS: This study supports experimental findings that prostate cancer is frequently associated with low testosterone concentrations. In the diagnostic workup for prostate cancer, associating prostate-specific antigen and testosterone levels may improve the predictive accuracy of prostate disease tests.



    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18172860?ordinalpos=17&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    In summary, our large prospective study did not show convincing evidence of a relationship between serum sex hormones and prostate cancer. T:SHBG ratio was related to risk in this older population of men, but the significance of this ratio in steroidal biology is unclear. (c) 2008 Wiley-Liss, Inc. (c) 2008 Wiley-Liss, Inc.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15541051?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    The concerns about testosterone therapy in ageing men with late-onset hypogonadism mainly address the risk of prostatic disease, i.e. either benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) or prostate cancer (PCa). Both conditions are highly dependent on androgen action and recent clinical data on the cancer-preventive effect of the 5alpha-reductase inhibitor finasteride have supported the possible role of androgens in PCa. However, the clinical data especially on the long-term effects of exogenous androgen substitution in regard to prostate safety are nonconclusive in many respects. As sufficient clinical studies on these risks will not be available in the near future, the approach of testosterone therapy towards prostate complications should be kept on a safe but practical basis. This review includes some recommendations in regard to testosterone therapy and prostate monitoring in patients with BPH and bladder outlet obstruction, with previous history of curative treatment for PCa or with prostatic intraepithelial neoplasia.



    ****It seems that this latest review is advocating the use of caution. I've seen other studies that suggest that more studies are needed in order NOT to rule out exogenous T-therapy as a risk factor for prostate cancer, even though existing studies do not show a correlation.

    I think a large part of this ideology stems from the fact that anti-androgens have proven efficacious against existing tumors. Hence, the caution.

    Thoughts??? As you guys/gals know, there's a ridiculous amount of research in this area. I just pulled these off of pubmed with some clinical queries.
     
  25. Noyac

    Noyac ASA Member
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    I have to admit that I never looked into the correlation b/w testo and prostate ca. I was going on the word of one of my riding buddies, a urologist. He claimed testosterone would infinitely increase your risk. Now I may have some ammo.
     
  26. dienekes88

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    He just doesn't want you to get on Test. Imagine being 185lbs and pushing 400W at threshold. I don't think he'd enjoy trying to hold your wheel.
     
  27. Noyac

    Noyac ASA Member
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    YOu have a point there.
     
  28. SleepIsGood

    SleepIsGood Support the ASA !
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    random point

    Last week in the news (Fox News) they stated that people are now using Viagra to bulk up!

    Apparently it's been around a lot. It increases NO and therefore blood flow to the mx's. People fatigue less while working out since you dont cramp up so easily.

    I was surprised, but they were saying lots of people were popping those blue pills before workouts. National leagues are trying to figure out how they are going to 'ban' them. The problem per the coaches are that the players are saying, "but coach, I gotta take care of my wife".:laugh:
     
  29. jetproppilot

    jetproppilot Turboprop Driver
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    Yeah, but how do you work out with a boner?:lol::lol:
     
  30. Noyac

    Noyac ASA Member
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    Dude, you've seen some of the girls at the gym right? Guys do it all the time.;)



    On second thought, maybe viagra at the gym is a really bad idea.
     
  31. Strength&Speed

    Strength&Speed Need more speed......
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    It might make me think twice about who I ask to spot me on squats
     
  32. Strength&Speed

    Strength&Speed Need more speed......
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  33. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1
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    Especially when you consider the sexual monster men become with supraphysiological doses of test running through their veins. No woman will complain... they may just beg for mercy :D
     
  34. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1
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    Hit pubmed for this info. Surprisingly, you'll ind that despite what the media may preach about psycho pro wrestlers being the way they are because of high doses of testosterone, there was at least one study I read (only one I found) that concluded that at even 600mg/wk IM testosterone there was no increase in anger/aggression in "psychologically normal" men.

    Note: its important to keep in mind that testosterone is only one of many anabolic and androgenic steroids people use for muscle gain and this doesn't speak to the rest.
     
  35. IctalSmile

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    I think you have a point. When $%*& hits the fan and some dude who's taking steroids flips out, I dont think you can put 100% of the blame on steroids. Like you said, it's not as bad as the media makes it seem. Also, a lot of dudes who are willing to pin themselves with roids arent exactly selective about the other chemicals they put in their bodies as well. You have to consider what other chemicals/drugs are running around in their system as well. It's also quite possible that these people who fly off the handle have some kind of mental health problem as well. So, in my opinion, I gotta think severe roid rage is pretty multifactorial.

    Also, I grew up on a small ranch and we gave our herefords Finaplix pellet implants in their ears and I cant say that it made them any more aggressive. Just an observation, I know it doesnt mean anything.
     
  36. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1
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    Yeah, I think you get a lot of insecure guys using juice for the same reason some women get gigantic implants: insecurity. (Note: I'm not saying that women all get implants b/c of insecurity, and I'm not even saying I'm against it. Same goes for guys. I'm just saying that some people think they can fix their insecurities by altering their appearance drastically). Then, the media reports that when guys flip out its b/c they're on steroids and when women kill themselves it's b/c they have implants :rolleyes: Go figure, right?

    And, although testosterone is a steroid I've read about not being an attitude change (well, not negatively, it used to be used as a treatment for depression, so it has a positive effect), Finaplex pellets may be a different story :D
     
  37. IctalSmile

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    LOL, really?

    hahaha j/k

    You should see some of the ultra-enhancement running around here in Vegas.... It's like putting rims on your car.... Make it look appropriate or you just look stupid... (ie the the toyota corrolla that I saw the other day with big rims and dub edition stick on emblems the other day)
     
  38. SoyMilk

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    Don't forget manboobs.
     
  39. jetproppilot

    jetproppilot Turboprop Driver
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    LEAVIN' FRIDAY BABY!!!!!

    SHAKKIN' AT DA PARIS

    and in true Ric Flair persona....

    WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!:smuggrin:
     
  40. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1
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    :lol: I know just what you're talking about.
     
  41. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1
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    Well, I was lucky enough to get gyno as a teen... I didn't even have to do steroids to get nice little nipple lumps :thumbup: <-- wait... :eek:
     
  42. IctalSmile

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    It's gettin warm, you should check out Rehab at the Hard Rock if your still here Sunday!
     
  43. jetproppilot

    jetproppilot Turboprop Driver
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    Yeah, I thought that too until I had a buddy recently return and tell me how great that is....he tells me to go to napkinnights.com and check out the photos of him in the Hard Rock rehab section.

    So I did.

    :laugh:

    Absolutely looks like the place to be if you're lookin' for somewhere to park your johnson for a nite or two........or looking for a johnson......since I saw about two unattractive people outta about two thousand....partying, chaos, drunk people everywhere, guys biting girls booties, laughter, more silicone than in Silicone Valley Cally, more amped-dudes than at the Mr Olympia...

    Nahhh, S.O. and I are more into the quiet poolside, maybe some cool music in the background, lounging around....

    Hard Rock Rehab looks like a great place to be!

    Just not my typa gig.

    I'll spend a cuppla afternoons involved in some high dollar no-limit games, eat great food, walk all up and down the strip, take in a cuppla shows, hook up with my buddy out there to catch up,

    and spend the resta the time poolside at the Paris.

    Hope their pool is quiet. :D
     
  44. AK_MD2BE

    AK_MD2BE New Member
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    Hey guys...just wanted to say thanks for the hilarious thread. I am taking my Step 1 exam in 9 days and haven't laughed out loud in a while...:laugh::laugh:
    Thanks, the laughs are much appreciated.
     
  45. Strength&Speed

    Strength&Speed Need more speed......
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    I didn't fine comb that data, but I'd be shocked if increased testosterone didnt' cause some increase in prostate ca. If it causes early hair loss through DHT, i dont' see why the prostate would be unaffected. Stranger things have happened in medicine however.
     
  46. Josh L.Ac.

    Josh L.Ac. MSA/LAc & BSN/RN --> AA-S
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    If good beer is one of your vices [and it should be], supposedly the Freakin Frog has an incredible beer selection and is somewhat low key.

    http://www.freakinfrog.com/

    My friends that still live in Vegas highly recommend it.
     
  47. Strength&Speed

    Strength&Speed Need more speed......
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    Holy schnikees check out the Hard Rock Pool on the weekends..... :eek::eek::eek: I saw some good lucking people there.
     
  48. IctalSmile

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    LOL your right....it gets freaky.....An interesting place to stop by for a couple hours for a brew and people watching.....inebriation at its finest!
    I gotta agree with ya, sittin' chill poolside beats the craziness. Rehab, contrary to the name, can be pretty painful the next day!

    If you havent been there, check out the Palazzo for a few hours. I've heard it's nice.

    Can't tell ya much about food on the strip... its a bit pricey for the student budget....But my bets are that you've already got that figured out. Gonna smoke a brisket tommorrow and have some good eats of my own though. Nothing like studyin some step 1 with some taste bbq.

    Hope you have a great time!
     
  49. Disciple

    Disciple Senior Member
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    So, hypothetically speaking, if an athlete was experiencing side-effects from a cycle he/she was on, and came to you for help, who would be the best specialist for the job?

    Endocrinologist?


    Or is it not as complicated as it sounds?
     
  50. tncekm

    tncekm MS-1
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    Most of my bodybuilder friends who have had trouble recovering from their cycles (trashed HPTA) usually end up at an endocrinologists office. My brother has minor gynecomastia from a cycle of OTC hormones and I believe he eventually saw an endocrinologist as well. (His OTC hormones were essentially grey market steroids not yet listed on the DSHEA--I find it disturbing and hilarious how many people take these extremely potent 17a methyl steroids they get over the counter, don't know it, and then talk trash about juicers. This one in particular was a 17a methyl (and therefore orally active) version of an illegal hormone: 2a,3a-epithio-5a-androstan-17b-ol; epitiostanol if my google search is correct, i don't know the brand name)
     
  51. cfdavid

    cfdavid Membership Revoked
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    I'd say an endo would be best qualified. But, in reality, there's so much misinformation about the subject in general (docs aren't immune to public perception etc.) that the REAL best physician would be one that simply has an interest and does his/her homework, and performs the requisite monitoring at approapriate times etc.
     

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