Low dose 'roids. Are they safe?

[IctalSmile]

Most of my bodybuilder friends who have had trouble recovering from their cycles (trashed HPTA) usually end up at an endocrinologists office. My brother has minor gynecomastia from a cycle of OTC hormones and I believe he eventually saw an endocrinologist as well. (His OTC hormones were essentially grey market steroids not yet listed on the DSHEA--I find it disturbing and hilarious how many people take these extremely potent 17a methyl steroids they get over the counter, don't know it, and then talk trash about juicers. This one in particular was a 17a methyl (and therefore orally active) version of an illegal hormone: 2a,3a-epithio-5a-androstan-17b-ol; epitiostanol if my google search is correct, i don't know the brand name)

Most of these OTC prohormones are getting scheduled on the 24th I believe....not sure about the exact date, but its sometime this month.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[jetproppilot]

So, hypothetically speaking, if an athlete was experiencing side-effects from a cycle he/she was on, and came to you for help, who would be the best specialist for the job?

Endocrinologist?


Or is it not as complicated as it sounds?

CF has the right answer.

I don't think endocronologists who dont deal with bodybuilders would be alotta help.

You'd need to find an MD with an interest in exogenous anabolic steroid utilization, how said use affects the hormonal axes, what the potential sequalae are, and how to intervene if needed like saying "Uhhhhhh, Dude, its time to come down from the 2500mg a week."

 

[tncekm]

Most of these OTC prohormones are getting scheduled on the 24th I believe....not sure about the exact date, but its sometime this month.

Yeah, but they're leaving some of the good ones behind. Plus, they just keep looking through Vida's text, adding methyl groups, and putting products back on the shelf.

Isn't this like the 3rd ban in 4 years?

 

[cfdavid]

Ah, a little off the subject, but has anyone heard about this apparent phenomenon of dudes (the news report specifically said DUDES, which made me think of a particular type of dude, but to each their own) spreading Preparation H over their bodies to look cut???

The vasoconstrictive effects apparently make the 6-pack show better. Less perfusion of adipose tissue etc.

 

[tncekm]

Ah, a little off the subject, but has anyone heard about this apparent phenomenon of dudes (the news report specifically said DUDES, which made me think of a particular type of dude, but to each their own) spreading Preparation H over their bodies to look cut???

The vasoconstrictive effects apparently make the 6-pack show better. Less perfusion of adipose tissue etc.

Yeah, I've heard of it. But nothing is more *****ic that that idiot Greg Valentino pumping himself up with massive amounts of synthol and then telling everyone he's a juicer.

 

[jetproppilot]

Yeah, I've heard of it. But nothing is more *****ic that that idiot Greg Valentino pumping himself up with massive amounts of synthol and then telling everyone he's a juicer.

That was a sick, sick video....

dude plunging a needle into his grotesque bicep to drain an abscess...

 

[jetproppilot]

Most of my bodybuilder friends who have had trouble recovering from their cycles (trashed HPTA) usually end up at an endocrinologists office. My brother has minor gynecomastia from a cycle of OTC hormones and I believe he eventually saw an endocrinologist as well. (His OTC hormones were essentially grey market steroids not yet listed on the DSHEA--I find it disturbing and hilarious how many people take these extremely potent 17a methyl steroids they get over the counter, don't know it, and then talk trash about juicers. This one in particular was a 17a methyl (and therefore orally active) version of an illegal hormone: 2a,3a-epithio-5a-androstan-17b-ol; epitiostanol if my google search is correct, i don't know the brand name)

Thats very interesting.

I tried the OTC stuff back in the day (what was the stuff Mark McGuire got alotta bad press for?) and didnt see much.

Additionally had a bodybuilder-colleague who actually did serum assays for testosterone levels while on the OTC stuff and he didnt see any difference.

 

[cfdavid]

That was a sick, sick video....

dude plunging a needle into his grotesque bicep to drain an abscess...

Yeah, that dude has some serious, serious issues....

 

[cfdavid]

Thats very interesting.

I tried the OTC stuff back in the day (what was the stuff Mark McGuire got alotta bad press for?) and didnt see much.

Additionally had a bodybuilder-colleague who actually did serum assays for testosterone levels while on the OTC stuff and he didnt see any difference.

I'm pretty sure it was androstenedione. It probably gets aromatized pretty damn quick.

 

[tncekm]

Thats very interesting.

I tried the OTC stuff back in the day (what was the stuff Mark McGuire got alotta bad press for?) and didnt see much.

Additionally had a bodybuilder-colleague who actually did serum assays for testosterone levels while on the OTC stuff and he didnt see any difference.

Androstenedione is pretty crappy. It would become lots of different compounds after ingestions, but only effective ones in very small numbers (one of which was testosterone). Pretty much any 17-one is crap as far as I know. And, so are 17b-ols that are not alkylated b/c they're easily oxidized to 17-one's.

Most of the new hormones are 17a methyls so the 17b-ol is protected from oxidation. They're nasty as hell on the liver (e.g. physician thinks you're dying bad), and will destroy your HDL (<10) but some of them are super effective.

I used one of them called superdrol a couple times before I really knew what I was taking, and at the time I put on massive strength and weight. Iw as pretty strong to begin with (repping around 300lbs), but after a couple runs and some very good eating I topped out at about 5'10", 240lbs, 14% BF w/a bench that was 350lbs for reps. I know first hand it works! Having said that, I proceeded to take the advice of a bunch of idiots on an internet forum, took a nasty little aromatase inhibitor called Novadex XT to suppress estrogen rebound and had a case of limp dong for about 3 months. I'm not doing that again, although there are some pretty effective alternatives to the AI I used a while ago these days and anectodotal evidence (from e-bodybuilders) would suggest that some combination of a SERM (like toremifene) and an AI would be best for post cycle.

You wouldn't see any difference in testosterone serum (except for decreases b/c of HPTA inhibition) because these compounds are not actually prohormones. They are ingested in their active form and that's how they stay.

Its actually very scary now that I know a little bit about organic chemistry and physiology. The idiots pumping out these drugs often can't even get the nomenclature right and don't seem to understand the significance of running standard IR, GC/MS, etc tests to confirm that they've produced the compound they think they did. I was reading MS data from one company that produces a grey market hormone and the MS data didn't even match the compound, it was ridiculous. The compound was definitely some sort of four ringed hormone, but it sure as hell wasn't what the label said it was.

 

[jetproppilot]

Androstenedione is pretty crappy. It would become lots of different compounds after ingestions, but only effective ones in very small numbers (one of which was testosterone). Pretty much any 17-one is crap as far as I know. And, so are 17b-ols that are not alkylated b/c they're easily oxidized to 17-one's.

Most of the new hormones are 17a methyls so the 17b-ol is protected from oxidation. They're nasty as hell on the liver (e.g. physician thinks you're dying bad), and will destroy your HDL (<10) but some of them are super effective.

I used one of them called superdrol a couple times before I really knew what I was taking, and at the time I put on massive strength and weight. Iw as pretty strong to begin with (repping around 300lbs), but after a couple runs and some very good eating I topped out at about 5'10", 240lbs, 14% BF w/a bench that was 350lbs for reps. I know first hand it works! Having said that, I proceeded to take the advice of a bunch of idiots on an internet forum, took a nasty little aromatase inhibitor to suppress estrogen rebound and had a case of limp dong for about 3 months. I'm not doing that again, although there are some pretty effective alternatives to the AI I used a while ago these days.

You wouldn't see any difference in testosterone serum (except for decreases b/c of HPTA inhibition) because these compounds are not actually prohormones. They are ingested in their active form and that's how they stay.

WOW.

Thats very interesting, Dude.

Thanks for posting.

I had no idea the OTC stuff could have such an impact.

Back in the day when I was, uhhhh, amped with delusions of getting a pro card, was before all the OTC stuff...

noone cared about all the real stuff......so there was no market for OTC stuff.

Like Venty said about his bout with his-rise-to-fame in the video-game genre, where he was nationally ranked,

I was on a mission from God to get bigger. Leaner. Stronger.

Looking back on those ten-or-so years, can't really say why...

BUT....

why does Noy wanna conquer the next double-black, uninhabited bowl?

Why does Mil wanna take that next curve a little lower and a little faster?

That was my mission.

To get bigger.

No regrets. I look back on those times and wish I could replicate the discipline. I ate and worked out professional-bodybuilder style.

FOR TEN YEARS.

No junk food. Hell, mosta my meals consisted of a cuppla fat-free turkey packets and a half-gallon of skim milk. No alcohol (with rare ice cream/ beer exception). Socially I was the most boring dude on the planet.

If it was gonna adversely affect my workout/physique, I didnt do it.

Every meal. Every day. Ten years.

Post-call as a resident after a bad night? No prob. Goin' to the gym. Gotta get the workout in. Stop by the grocery store on the west bank on the way home for some turkey. And some skim milk.

Topped out at just under 245, with experiences like you, TNC.....bodyfat less than 8%.....repping bench with 405....squatting 500 to the floor for reps....incline bench with 315...

Never gravitated to the whole competitive bodybuilding scene. Was happy to battle myself with great workouts and avoiding parenteral temptation.

THEN ONE DAY I WAS AT WORK CIRCA 2001 and had to run up to the ICU to intubate someone.

I took the one flight of stairs to the ICU....and I was out of breath.

That was my epiphany.

I had a meeting with myself after that flight of stairs.

Kinda went like "UHHHHHH, DUDE, WTF??? YEAH, YOU'RE PRETTY RIPPED AT 245, BUT WHO CARES? YA CANT EVEN SPORT A FLIGHTTA STAIRS!!!"

That was the end for me of my "healthy" lifestyle.

Stopped the....uhhhhh......amps.

Started cardio.

I'm a happier, healthier, albeit smaller Jet today. Gotta four pack (yeah, Noy, I know, you've got six) at around 214 lbs. I enjoy life now. I periodically eat the fantastic food here in New Orleans. I'm a pretty good critique of California cabernets. I love PATRON margaritas!

I love my kids. I love my job. I love my S.O.

The gym is way down on the list now.

Important? Yep.

Consuming? Nope.

but man what a rush it was to put five plates on each side (plus a 2.5) and SQUAT TO THE FLOOR for a setta eight.....those were the days, ladies and gentlemen....those were the days.....

Current Day, I'm happy in the gym with my respectable work.

Hell, I can jog 3 miles without stopping. For guys like Noy, that aint s hit. For a musclehead like me, thats an accomplishment.

Naturally.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

[Disclaimer: all of this is pretty much here-say]

Supposedly, the whole andro thing was a red herring. By suggesting that andro was the reason why he got huge, McGuire's revelation sent throngs of bodybuilders to their local GNCs to buy a product that didn't work...at least not in the manner laypeople thought.

Rumor has it that the real benefit of andro was the ability to mask the use of anabolics. The typical "steroid test" back in the mid-90's relied on the testosterone / epitestosterone ratio, meaning if the ratio was greater than 1:6, it was assumed you were using steroids. Now while andro did jack to give any lasting benefits, it did give the athlete a legitimate reason for why their ratio was off. Furthermore, if you believe the rumors, in sport like professional baseball, the players unions only allowed this basic screening to be used on the players.



[/underground bodybuilding and steroid urban legend]



As for all of the freaky/crazy mods that came after andro, pretty much all of the research on these "designer legal steriods" was performed by the manufacturers and presented in muscle mags in ads using biochemical terms with a doctor in a lab coat [complete with a stethoscope] showing some random IFBB pro a beaker of blue-colored water.



Edit: god I love this ad...the stethoscope is for what, exactly? Perhaps he upset Dr. Cox and has to listen to see if the counter has a pulse.

 

[jetproppilot]

[Disclaimer: all of this is pretty much here-say]

Supposedly, the whole andro thing was a red herring. By suggesting that andro was the reason why he got huge, McGuire's revelation sent throngs of bodybuilders to their local GNCs to buy a product that didn't work...at least not in the manner laypeople thought.

Rumor has it that the real benefit of andro was the ability to mask the use of anabolics. The typical "steroid test" back in the mid-90's relied on the testosterone / epitestosterone ratio, meaning if the ratio was greater than 1:6, it was assumed you were using steroids. Now while andro did jack to give any lasting benefits, it did give the athlete a legitimate reason for why their ratio was off. Furthermore, if you believe the rumors, in sport like professional baseball, the players unions only allowed this basic screening to be used on the players.



[/underground bodybuilding and steroid urban legend]



As for all of the freaky/crazy mods that came after andro, pretty much all of the research on these "designer legal steriods" was performed by the manufacturers and presented in muscle mags in ads using biochemical terms with a doctor in a lab coat [complete with a stethoscope] showing some random IFBB pro a beaker of blue-colored water.



Edit: god I love this ad...the stethoscope is for what, exactly? Perhaps he upset Dr. Cox and has to listen to see if the counter has a pulse.

Very well said and depicted.

Knowing better, I never attributed McGuires gains and home runs to his acclaimed OTC use....look at the dudes physique back then...

he was obviously using under the counter (UTC?) gear.

But his admission of androstenidione use...an OTC substance....is what the media hyped in on.

What he didnt admit to probably included a healthy mix of test and deca.

 

[cfdavid]

Androstenedione is pretty crappy. It would become lots of different compounds after ingestions, but only effective ones in very small numbers (one of which was testosterone). Pretty much any 17-one is crap as far as I know. And, so are 17b-ols that are not alkylated b/c they're easily oxidized to 17-one's.

Most of the new hormones are 17a methyls so the 17b-ol is protected from oxidation. They're nasty as hell on the liver (e.g. physician thinks you're dying bad), and will destroy your HDL (<10) but some of them are super effective.

I used one of them called superdrol a couple times before I really knew what I was taking, and at the time I put on massive strength and weight. Iw as pretty strong to begin with (repping around 300lbs), but after a couple runs and some very good eating I topped out at about 5'10", 240lbs, 14% BF w/a bench that was 350lbs for reps. I know first hand it works! Having said that, I proceeded to take the advice of a bunch of idiots on an internet forum, took a nasty little aromatase inhibitor called Novadex XT to suppress estrogen rebound and had a case of limp dong for about 3 months. I'm not doing that again, although there are some pretty effective alternatives to the AI I used a while ago these days and anectodotal evidence (from e-bodybuilders) would suggest that some combination of a SERM (like toremifene) and an AI would be best for post cycle.

You wouldn't see any difference in testosterone serum (except for decreases b/c of HPTA inhibition) because these compounds are not actually prohormones. They are ingested in their active form and that's how they stay.

Its actually very scary now that I know a little bit about organic chemistry and physiology. The idiots pumping out these drugs often can't even get the nomenclature right and don't seem to understand the significance of running standard IR, GC/MS, etc tests to confirm that they've produced the compound they think they did. I was reading MS data from one company that produces a grey market hormone and the MS data didn't even match the compound, it was ridiculous. The compound was definitely some sort of four ringed hormone, but it sure as hell wasn't what the label said it was.

I'm suprised you had some, ah, problems with the Novaldex. Perhaps you completely inhibited the Estrogen? (which is a known requirement for libido in males) Novaldex is Tamoxifen, so we know what it does in breast, and uterus. But, what does it do at the hypothalamus??

I've never heard of Arimidex causing limp dick. But, I do know you need to be careful not to overdo it (it's super efficacious in men) so as to maintain bone density given that it's a strict AI and not an SERM etc.

Also, anyone have any experience with Clomiphene or hCG for post-cycle therapy?

Like I said, this is academic for me, and a lot of my reading goes back a ways. I started reading a bit on this stuff in high school (Dan Duchane's material) and was attracted to the power (albeit potential danger) of the physiological manipulation as well as the science of it all.

 

[jetproppilot]

Like I said, this is academic for me, and a lot of my reading goes back a ways. I started reading a bit on this stuff in high school (Dan Duchane's material) and was attracted to the power (albeit potential danger) of the physiological manipulation as well as the science of it all.

Duchaine contributed alot to the bodybuilding underworld.

He's dead.

Think he died in 2001 or so of some hereditary kidney issue.

I here ya, though.

I felt the power of that era as well.

Despite all my travels, I never saw any side effects despite choosing not to endure post-cycle regimes of Nolvadex, HCG and the like.

Wanna my buddies (6'5", 280 at peak with 8% bodyfat.) I worked out with for years traveled to New York a few months ago to visit a plastic surgeon for his second surgery for gynecomastia.......keep in mind he and I were amped a long time ago...... and yet despite the chronology, he continues to suffer from side effects ten years later....

I never experienced any of that, despite the equipotency of our regimens....

don't know how to explain that.....

blind luck in the rear view mirror, I guess.

 

[tncekm]

I'm suprised you had some, ah, problems with the Novaldex. Perhaps you completely inhibited the Estrogen? (which is a known requirement for libido in males) Novaldex is Tamoxifen, so we know what it does in breast, and uterus. But, what does it do at the hypothalamus??

I've never heard of Arimidex causing limp dick. But, I do know you need to be careful not to overdo it (it's super efficacious in men) so as to maintain bone density given that it's a strict AI and not an SERM etc.

Oh, Novadex XT is an AI; its an OTC product that doesn't contain tamoxifen (SERM), its active ingredient is ATD. It just uses a ripoff of the name.

Being a suicidal AI, it did a number on my estrogen and my dong was broken

Also, anyone have any experience with Clomiphene or hCG for post-cycle therapy?

Like I said, this is academic for me, and a lot of my reading goes back a ways. I started reading a bit on this stuff in high school (Dan Duchane's material) and was attracted to the power (albeit potential danger) of the physiological manipulation as well as the science of it all.

Friends used hCG. They said it got the testis growing, but I can't say that speaks to anything about jumpstarting the HPTA. Most people say the benefit is largely cosmetic from their experience.

 

[tncekm]

Hahah. Great story! I never made it as long as you did, and I couldn't bring myself to eat that clean for much longer than bout 4-6 weeks at a time. Its soooooooo difficult!

About 3 years ago I stopped training after a series of strange events. I got sick, my pet parrot died , my family was in financial turmoil (again), and we were in the middle of a move. I've never been able to get serious since! I'll go into the gym for a few months, stay out for six, etc. I just recently got back in the gym again. I'd been out for almost a year and coming back sucked! Put it this way, 225lbs on a hammer bench felt heavy! Its cool though, my fiancee just graduated dental hygiene school so I s hould have a steady supply of food so I should be able to get moving again pretty quick. And, muscle memory (and glycogen) is just amazingly fun. My arms grew 1 1/8" in two weeks, haha. That's just insane! But, like I said, I'm week and I need some serious work ATM... I jiggle going up and down the stairs.

Well, JPP, if I end up at a medical school near you maybe we'll have to catch a workout

WOW.

Thats very interesting, Dude.

Thanks for posting.

I had no idea the OTC stuff could have such an impact.

Back in the day when I was, uhhhh, amped with delusions of getting a pro card, was before all the OTC stuff...

noone cared about all the real stuff......so there was no market for OTC stuff.

Like Venty said about his bout with his-rise-to-fame in the video-game genre, where he was nationally ranked,

I was on a mission from God to get bigger. Leaner. Stronger.

Looking back on those ten-or-so years, can't really say why...

BUT....

why does Noy wanna conquer the next double-black, uninhabited bowl?

Why does Mil wanna take that next curve a little lower and a little faster?

That was my mission.

To get bigger.

No regrets. I look back on those times and wish I could replicate the discipline. I ate and worked out professional-bodybuilder style.

FOR TEN YEARS.

No junk food. Hell, mosta my meals consisted of a cuppla fat-free turkey packets and a half-gallon of skim milk. No alcohol (with rare ice cream/ beer exception). Socially I was the most boring dude on the planet.

If it was gonna adversely affect my workout/physique, I didnt do it.

Every meal. Every day. Ten years.

Post-call as a resident after a bad night? No prob. Goin' to the gym. Gotta get the workout in. Stop by the grocery store on the west bank on the way home for some turkey. And some skim milk.

Topped out at just under 245, with experiences like you, TNC.....bodyfat less than 8%.....repping bench with 405....squatting 500 to the floor for reps....incline bench with 315...

Never gravitated to the whole competitive bodybuilding scene. Was happy to battle myself with great workouts and avoiding parenteral temptation.

THEN ONE DAY I WAS AT WORK CIRCA 2001 and had to run up to the ICU to intubate someone.

I took the one flight of stairs to the ICU....and I was out of breath.

That was my epiphany.

I had a meeting with myself after that flight of stairs.

Kinda went like "UHHHHHH, DUDE, WTF??? YEAH, YOU'RE PRETTY RIPPED AT 245, BUT WHO CARES? YA CANT EVEN SPORT A FLIGHTTA STAIRS!!!"

That was the end for me of my "healthy" lifestyle.

Stopped the....uhhhhh......amps.

Started cardio.

I'm a happier, healthier, albeit smaller Jet today. Gotta four pack (yeah, Noy, I know, you've got six) at around 214 lbs. I enjoy life now. I periodically eat the fantastic food here in New Orleans. I'm a pretty good critique of California cabernets. I love PATRON margaritas!

I love my kids. I love my job. I love my S.O.

The gym is way down on the list now.

Important? Yep.

Consuming? Nope.

but man what a rush it was to put five plates on each side (plus a 2.5) and SQUAT TO THE FLOOR for a setta eight.....those were the days, ladies and gentlemen....those were the days.....

Current Day, I'm happy in the gym with my respectable work.

Hell, I can jog 3 miles without stopping. For guys like Noy, that aint s hit. For a musclehead like me, thats an accomplishment.

Naturally.

 

[jetproppilot]

Duchaine contributed alot to the bodybuilding underworld.

He's dead.

Think he died in 2001 or so of some hereditary kidney issue.

I here ya, though.

I felt the power of that era as well.

Despite all my travels, I never saw any side effects despite choosing not to endure post-cycle regimes of Nolvadex, HCG and the like.

Wanna my buddies (6'5", 290 at peak with 8% bodyfat.) I worked out with for years traveled to New York a few months ago to visit a plastic surgeon for his second surgery for gynecomastia.......keep in mind he and I were amped a long time ago...... and yet despite the chronology, he continues to suffer from side effects ten years later....

I never experienced any of that, despite the equipotency of our regimens....

don't know how to explain that.....

blind luck in the rear view mirror, I guess.

MAN THOSE WERE GOOD TIMES!!!!

Gotta relate another story for you about the good ole days in the gym, circa 2000.

Me, the 6'5" monster, and another dude named Warren W. were gym savants.

Our workouts (sadly, looking back) were prioritized over everything.

Lemme tell you a little about Warren.

Warren was a blue collar worker, unlike me or Bart, my 6'5" buddy, who made six figures annually in the fireworks industry....dude literally worked 2 months outta the year, around July 4th.....the rest of his time was spent doing what he wanted.

Warren worked for his money with his body.

On an oil rig.

When Warren was home (14 days on the rig, 14 off), we'd all work out.....Warren had a shaved head, tattoos everywhere........sported about 235 on a 5'10" six-pack frame....

DUDE LOOKED LIKE A FRIKKIN ASSASSIN.

Wanna those dudes you wouldnt mess with even if your mom was in jeapordy......

But the dude had a personality that didnt fit his outward appearance.....kind, religious....alotta his tattoos were religious in nature you wouldnt know that unless you had the courage to get close enough to him to look at them...

SO ONE DAY we're in the middle of a workout...and I'm feelin' kinda squirrely....so I jump on Warren's back, playful-like, and start takin' some MATT HUGHES punches to his head and torso.

Albeit playfully.

Warren tolerates my banter until I decide enough is enough, and I jump off.

Now heres a point in my life thats kinda funny, kinda not.

Heres my buddy, albeit from another world (working wise) than what I'm used to....dudes been to my house, ridden in my truck....

Warren looks at me like I never saw him look at me before. And he said:

"Bee-ill, dudes from a small Louisiana town where Bill is a two-syllable word...

..."I WANT YOU TO HIT ME AS HARD AS YOU CAN, FOR AS LONG AS YOU CAN."

....keep in mind, Warren is saying this like you were talking to your kids....very calmly.....serene.....

"AND WHEN YOU'RE DONE, I'M GONNA KICK YOUR A SS."

...............................................

THERE IT WAS.

My workout buddy. My confidente. A dude I'd shared meals with. Some family time.....

TELLING ME IN THE MOST ELOQUENT FASHION HE COULD MUSTER THAT I'D CROSSED THE LINE, AND IF NEEDED, HE COULD REDUCE ME TO A PILE OF CARBON.

And that if I pulled that stunt again, I may pay for it.

Blue Collar Style.

Know what?

Warren and I were friends for a long time after that incident.

I lost personal touch with him after my move to New Orleans.

CURRENT DAY, he's making part of his living FIGHTING. UFC STYLE.

I never jumped on his back again, by the way.

 

[jetproppilot]

.

 

[jetproppilot]

I've never heard of Arimidex causing limp dick.

Its hard to attribute a symptom to one-specific-agent when youre looking at a dude, CF, thats ingesting steroids and post-cycle stuff, since the anabolics affect individuals on an individualistic basis....

like I said, I never experienced any side effects...

...but my monster buddy experienced, on an equipotent regimen that I endured, all the side effects.....decreased libido, ED, gynecomastia....FROM THE CYCLES. NOT FROM THE RESCUE MEDS.

.... whos to say the dudes ED wasnt from the initial onslaught of anabolics?

Anabolics affect individuals so differently......some dudes heed the side effects, some don't....hard to say the ED issue was from the aromatase inhibitor.....

 

[Strength&Speed]

Very well said and depicted.

Knowing better, I never attributed McGuires gains and home runs to his acclaimed OTC use....look at the dudes physique back then...

he was obviously using under the counter (UTC?) gear.

But his admission of androstenidione use...an OTC substance....is what the media hyped in on.

What he didnt admit to probably included a healthy mix of test and deca.

When about 20 reporters see a bottle of Androstenedione in your locker, it's pretty hard to explain away. Isn't andro < 1/10 converted to testosterone? i thought it was better suited to growing boobs than muscles.

Anyhow, McGwire at least made it abundantly clear duing those Mitchell hearings he'd used roids, despite not outwardly admitting it. Better than the rest who outright denied it.

Bonds should probably suffer the same fate, whatever BS he is spewing these days. Guess he thought that flaxseed oil was working wonders when his biceps grew 7 inches!

 

[Strength&Speed]

[Disclaimer: all of this is pretty much here-say]



As for all of the freaky/crazy mods that came after andro, pretty much all of the research on these "designer legal steriods" was performed by the manufacturers and presented in muscle mags in ads using biochemical terms with a doctor in a lab coat [complete with a stethoscope] showing some random IFBB pro a beaker of blue-colored water.



Edit: god I love this ad...the stethoscope is for what, exactly? Perhaps he upset Dr. Cox and has to listen to see if the counter has a pulse.

I love these ads. I love the headings under the "doctor" headings too. Like "Yale Graduate of Medicine 1994"...obviously never got a residency. Or "D.O. Resident Jon whatever his name is". Wow, where are you finding these true medical professionals.

I seriously fear for what some of these guys are putting in their systems. one of my favorite stories was when I was in louisiana bayou (same accent as yours JPP) and this oil-rigging character was telling me about using insulin to bulk up. He said he gained 20 lbs in one weekend! Unfortunately, about half of that was fat. And he had some lightheadedness, as you might expect. I was like...dude, you are going to be dead soon if you keep doing that!

 

[Strength&Speed]

..

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Every single IFBB pro-wannabes I ever met that did insulin were complete wackjobs and I don't really know why. I've known people on GH, large doses of roids, clen...whatever. But for some reason, once the people started dabbling in insulin, they were done.


The only outlier from this group was the woman I posted earlier, Kim Cheveski. I really didn't know her more than just talking to her occasionally at the gym, but she was always polite...even when she was hardcore dieting. She would say nice things in her squeaky, little voice.


But everyone else = complete wackjobs.

 

[Noyac]

WOW.

Hell, I can jog 3 miles without stopping. For guys like Noy, that aint s hit. For a musclehead like me, thats an accomplishment.

Dude, I can't jog 3 miles.

Baseball knees. 3 surgeries. Too much jarring.

Snowboarding and cycling are easier on the joints, sort of.

Great post though, Jet.

 

[beepbloop]

Dude, I can't jog 3 miles.

Baseball knees. 3 surgeries. Too much jarring.

Snowboarding and cycling are easier on the joints, sort of.

Great post though, Jet.

You really think so? I'm a fairly avid cyclist and snowboarded for the first time in February, and it killed my knees. While it was my first time, it was kind of a cumulative pain, so that by the time the week was over, my knees ached when I walked (mainly my right knee--I'm goofy). I didn't anticipate the pain either, as I skateboarded for years in my younger days and was somewhat used to that kind of motion. That said, I'm glad you said this, as I had worried that snowboarding was too hard on my knees for me to pursue much.

 

[cfdavid]

Its hard to attribute a symptom to one-specific-agent when youre looking at a dude, CF, thats ingesting steroids and post-cycle stuff, since the anabolics affect individuals on an individualistic basis....

like I said, I never experienced any side effects...

...but my monster buddy experienced, on an equipotent regimen that I endured, all the side effects.....decreased libido, ED, gynecomastia....FROM THE CYCLES. NOT FROM THE RESCUE MEDS.

.... whos to say the dudes ED wasnt from the initial onslaught of anabolics?

Anabolics affect individuals so differently......some dudes heed the side effects, some don't....hard to say the ED issue was from the aromatase inhibitor.....

Good point Jet.

Hey, your new name is Tom "JPP" Platz!!!! LOL

 

[cfdavid]

O.k., my personal opinion is that all the gear they do essentially make them look like men with long hair and a bikkini doing the tuck ur "gear" between the legs dance like the dude in Silence of the Lambs. LOL

But, that's just my opinion.

HOWEVER, anyone remember Cory Everson??? Several-time Ms. Olympia??

Granted, a bit large, by any standard. But, she was probably the only pro-level female BB that I ever found attractive. That gal had her moments. At one point I remember her having a fitness/workout program on TV. So, she wasn't likely cycling and going all hardcore. She was a good looking woman. I'm not aware of anyone coming even close to her level of hotness since, at least at THAT level.

 

[Strength&Speed]

O.k., my personal opinion is that all the gear they do essentially make them look like men with long hair and a bikkini doing the tuck ur "gear" between the legs dance like the dude in Silence of the Lambs. LOL

But, that's just my opinion.

HOWEVER, anyone remember Cory Everson??? Several-time Ms. Olympia??

Granted, a bit large, by any standard. But, she was probably the only pro-level female BB that I ever found attractive. That gal had her moments. At one point I remember her having a fitness/workout program on TV. So, she wasn't likely cycling and going all hardcore. She was a good looking woman. I'm not aware of anyone coming even close to her level of hotness since, at least at THAT level.

cory everson was definitely hot. I'm surprised she actually won Ms. Olympia. I agree, I haven't seen anyone that hot since, especially a winner. Of course, the figure pro's are a different story.

 

[dienekes88]

WOW.

Thats very interesting, Dude.

Thanks for posting.

I had no idea the OTC stuff could have such an impact.

Back in the day when I was, uhhhh, amped with delusions of getting a pro card, was before all the OTC stuff...

noone cared about all the real stuff......so there was no market for OTC stuff.

Like Venty said about his bout with his-rise-to-fame in the video-game genre, where he was nationally ranked,

I was on a mission from God to get bigger. Leaner. Stronger.

Looking back on those ten-or-so years, can't really say why...

BUT....

why does Noy wanna conquer the next double-black, uninhabited bowl?

Why does Mil wanna take that next curve a little lower and a little faster?

That was my mission.

To get bigger.

No regrets. I look back on those times and wish I could replicate the discipline. I ate and worked out professional-bodybuilder style.

FOR TEN YEARS.

No junk food. Hell, mosta my meals consisted of a cuppla fat-free turkey packets and a half-gallon of skim milk. No alcohol (with rare ice cream/ beer exception). Socially I was the most boring dude on the planet.

If it was gonna adversely affect my workout/physique, I didnt do it.

Every meal. Every day. Ten years.

Post-call as a resident after a bad night? No prob. Goin' to the gym. Gotta get the workout in. Stop by the grocery store on the west bank on the way home for some turkey. And some skim milk.

Topped out at just under 245, with experiences like you, TNC.....bodyfat less than 8%.....repping bench with 405....squatting 500 to the floor for reps....incline bench with 315...

Never gravitated to the whole competitive bodybuilding scene. Was happy to battle myself with great workouts and avoiding parenteral temptation.

THEN ONE DAY I WAS AT WORK CIRCA 2001 and had to run up to the ICU to intubate someone.

I took the one flight of stairs to the ICU....and I was out of breath.

That was my epiphany.

I had a meeting with myself after that flight of stairs.

Kinda went like "UHHHHHH, DUDE, WTF??? YEAH, YOU'RE PRETTY RIPPED AT 245, BUT WHO CARES? YA CANT EVEN SPORT A FLIGHTTA STAIRS!!!"

That was the end for me of my "healthy" lifestyle.

Stopped the....uhhhhh......amps.

Started cardio.

I'm a happier, healthier, albeit smaller Jet today. Gotta four pack (yeah, Noy, I know, you've got six) at around 214 lbs. I enjoy life now. I periodically eat the fantastic food here in New Orleans. I'm a pretty good critique of California cabernets. I love PATRON margaritas!

I love my kids. I love my job. I love my S.O.

The gym is way down on the list now.

Important? Yep.

Consuming? Nope.

but man what a rush it was to put five plates on each side (plus a 2.5) and SQUAT TO THE FLOOR for a setta eight.....those were the days, ladies and gentlemen....those were the days.....

Current Day, I'm happy in the gym with my respectable work.

Hell, I can jog 3 miles without stopping. For guys like Noy, that aint s hit. For a musclehead like me, thats an accomplishment.

Naturally.

DANG. I have a similar story. I definitely was not as extreme at my biggest. 5'8", 172lbs, 7%BF, 1RM bench @225, 3RM power clean @205, 6RM Squat @300.

I was winded after running up the stairs in the library. I thought to myself, "WHAT?!?" and proceeded to lose 35lbs of muscle training for two Ironmans. I don't think I can even hit the bar for 10 reps on bench anymore. Hahaha.

 

[huktonfonix]

WOW.


but man what a rush it was to put five plates on each side (plus a 2.5) and SQUAT TO THE FLOOR for a setta eight.....those were the days, ladies and gentlemen....those were the days.....

LOL! Cant lift nearly that much but, I do try to keep in shape. The 2.5 lb cracks me up because I always do the same thing just to make it an even number. Its an ego thing I guess. 500 does sound more impressive than 495

 

[jetproppilot]

WOW.


but man what a rush it was to put five plates on each side (plus a 2.5) and SQUAT TO THE FLOOR for a setta eight.....those were the days, ladies and gentlemen....those were the days.....

LOL! Cant lift nearly that much but, I do try to keep in shape. The 2.5 lb cracks me up because I always do the same thing just to make it an even number. Its an ego thing I guess. 500 does sound more impressive than 495

Yeah, how stupid is that, huh?

Puttin' little 2.5s on either side.....

I'm guilty.

 

[tncekm]

Yeah, how stupid is that, huh?

Puttin' little 2.5s on either side.....

I'm guilty.

Ha, ha, ha . I actually never did that with my lifts. That's pretty funny

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Actually you can buy magnet 1.25 lb. weights as well. The old gym I was a personal trainer at had them.


Sounds goofy, but sometimes going from 105 lb dumbells on incline bench to 110 lb was too much of a jump.

 

[Disciple]

CF has the right answer.

I don't think endocronologists who dont deal with bodybuilders would be alotta help.

You'd need to find an MD with an interest in exogenous anabolic steroid utilization, how said use affects the hormonal axes, what the potential sequalae are, and how to intervene if needed like saying "Uhhhhhh, Dude, its time to come down from the 2500mg a week."

So, what would you suggest as a good resource for physician education?

Besides bodybuilding/juicing internet message boards


I do some sports med in my practice, have treated some bodybuilders, and this stuff isn't offered at the typical sports med conferences/CMEs.

 

[cfdavid]

So, what would you suggest as a good resource for physician education?

Besides bodybuilding/juicing internet message boards


I do some sports med in my practice, have treated some bodybuilders, and this stuff isn't offered at the typical sports med conferences/CMEs.

I think you need to go direct to the literature (hell, that's what the BB gurus have done, and it seems it's resulted in a lot of innovation from the standpoint of off-label use of certain meds). Also, you could consult with an endo, but you may need to guide them along a bit.

 

[BitingPlates]

This is a legitimate thread. For me, this is more intellectual. I wouldn't do anything unless I was commited, had the resources to do it right, and if it was a priority in my life (which it's not right now).

Anybody remember Dan Duchane?? He wrote the Steroid Bible back in the day. Incidentally, he's dead now, but not sure how he died.

Regarding testicular atrophy, there's hCG, and even Clomid post-cycle.


On a related subject, I will definitely supplement Testosterone (again, with any supplementals such as aromitase inhibitors etc. that may be necessary) down the road as the T levels drop off. In other words, bringing them back up to 20's-30's levels when I'm 60 or so.

If done intelligently, I agree that risks can be greatly mitigated.


O.K. back to USMLE World. Taking Step I in 13 days.

I have one of Duchane's book's, Body Opus. Its the dieting book for athletes, if you want to drop some serious body fat this is the book to get.

 

[Paulyfarmacy]

I have one of Duchane's book's, Body Opus. Its the dieting book for athletes, if you want to drop some serious body fat this is the book to get.

The 2.5s and dare I say therabands have been instrumental in doubling my forearm girth and transforming my former noodle arms to weapons of mass destruction.

BTW- Body Opus builds a lean machine no doubt…

 

[BitingPlates]

The 2.5s and dare I say therabands have been instrumental in doubling my forearm girth and transforming my former noodle arms to weapons of mass destruction.

BTW- Body Opus builds a lean machine no doubt…

I was dieting for a show a few years ago and I would carb deplete like the book states, I never felt worse than that, but I looked great. I want to compete in a smaller all natural show, but I am unable to diet and do school at the same time. Eventually I will do a show.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

I finally purchased Body Opus after waiting about a decade and am almost finished with it. I ordered the Ultimate Diet 2.0, which is supposedly an update for Dan's book. I plan on starting that diet when my BF gets down to a more reasonable level.

I miss Dan's writing style. I remember reading some of his articles in the mid 90's and always found them entertaining.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

No dust will collect on this thread.



So I completed Ultimate Diet 2.0 and created an excel spreadsheet, complete with formulas, to create my cyclical ketogenic diet [CKD] for the next 8 weeks. I also included in the workbook the exercise routines from the book that correspond to the different parts of the CKD.

Diet Overview:
Tue - Thr: low carb days
Fri until 1700 - low carb day
Fri after 1700 - incredibly high carb day (around 1000g)
Sat - continue high carb day
Sun - maintenance calories
Mon - start with normal maintenance, switch to low carb in late day

Thrust, repeat for 8 weeks.

Has anyone done a CKD? I am getting labs drawn and taking pictures so I have a baseline to compare to in 8 weeks.

 

[jetproppilot]

Has anyone done a CKD? I am getting labs drawn and taking pictures so I have a baseline to compare to in 8 weeks.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm laughing at my own simpleness.

Josh, back in my freak days, me, Bart, Warren, and a million other muscle-heads realized the physiologic benefits of a CKD.

We just werent smart enough to market it or put a catchy name to it.

So circa 2000, I'm weighing around 240, strongasanox, pretty lean.

Why pretty lean?

Cuz all I ate was meat, cheese, and eggs.

No exceptions.

No timeouts (except around the workout I'd take in some simple carbs since if I didnt I'd feel faint from such glycogen depletion).

(Jet at Burgerking driveup after work around 5pm):

"YEAH HI, I NEED THREE DOUBLE WHOPPERS WITH CHEESE WITH ONIONS AND MUSTARD ONLY PLEASE."

I love ketchup.

Back then, though, ketchup meant, like, two added grams of carbs.

And carbs were the enemy.

So I'd order like depicted, remove the bread, and eat that meaty, cheesy, mustardy, oniony meal.

That diet you speak of works, Homie.

It'll make you the envy of all the Stick-Figure-BigFake-Boob-Hotties at Rehab, HARRAHS, Las Vegas.

Do it religiously for a cuppla months and you'll see veins in places you've never seen'em.

Atop da huge quads.

Ontoppa your obliques.

Its your best shot of getting a fraction close to the postage-stamp-thin-skin and vascularity once sported by the late Andreas Munzer.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbrFYWstbv0&amp;feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


GODSPEED, DUDE.

Like Ben Stiller said in Starsky and Hutch,

"DO IT. DO IT."

 

[Strength&Speed]

jesus yes. andreas munzer had the most ridiculous tri's. you could see every fiber of that hurricane shaped muscle. unfortunately he danced with the devil in the pale moonlight a bit too much, and paid the price.

can anyone give me the rationale for what the bb use?

like
clen, gh, deca etc. what's the rationale behind them? obviously the goal is to bulk up...but i assume its a bit like balanced anesthesia. i mean, why the mixture.

 

[cfdavid]

anyone know how andreas muntzer died? this is not rhetorical. just curious what the "official" word is.

 

[jetproppilot]

anyone know how andreas muntzer died? this is not rhetorical. just curious what the "official" word is.

He died of liver/kidney failure brought on by hypovolemic shock (I guess) from a bleeding peptic ulcer in 1996 (or 1997).

From what I remember the reports said he had been experiencing stomach pains for weeks.

He made it to the hospital....I don't remember if he got operated on or not.

He was around my age....around 30 at the time.

 

[Disciple]

I think you need to go direct to the literature (hell, that's what the BB gurus have done, and it seems it's resulted in a lot of innovation from the standpoint of off-label use of certain meds). Also, you could consult with an endo, but you may need to guide them along a bit.

There's a somewhat related thread on the Pain Forum

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6845717#post6845717


What does everybody think about the medicolegal risk in trying to manage this type of thing vs refering to an Endocrinologist?

Steroid use is currently a prominent issue in American sports medicine, yes?

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

He died of liver/kidney failure brought on by hypovolemic shock (I guess) from a bleeding peptic ulcer in 1996 (or 1997).

From what I remember the reports said he had been experiencing stomach pains for weeks.

He made it to the hospital....I don't remember if he got operated on or not.

He was around my age....around 30 at the time.

I always heard that it was a fatal dysrhythmia brought on by diuretic use.


[/bodybuilding lore]

 

[cfdavid]

There's a somewhat related thread on the Pain Forum

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6845717#post6845717


What does everybody think about the medicolegal risk in trying to manage this type of thing vs refering to an Endocrinologist?

Steroid use is currently a prominent issue in American sports medicine, yes?

I think that the dudes that do HRT for older adults would have less legal risk. At least they can prove deficits, and thus a medical reason for treating those deficits.

I just don't see any incentive (provided a physician didn't feel morally hindered) to get involved in athletic performance enhancement in younger athletes. I'd steer clear of that one, frankly. Too risky, IMO, and "first do no harm".....

 

[Disciple]

I'm not advocating supplying anybody's gear, but I do know quite a few guys who have long term side-effects from their cycles, and endos seem to have little interest in treating this sort of thing.

The question is, should this be something that primary care sports med docs get training in? After all they're the ones treating the high school kids, the collegians, and the pros, whole team may be linked to the Ortho group that they're a part of.

 

[freaker]

Monstrously huge AND small nuts.... what happens when you are with a girl and she screams at your tiny sack?

Testicular atrophy only lasts as long as you're cycling. You can take B-HCG during your cycle and prevent that, as well.

There are further designer steroids you can take for 3 week cycles or so.

I personally think the "dangers" of steroids are overblown. If you're smart and monitoring lipid and liver profiles, using short cycles, and using them infrequently, I just don't think the risks are that extreme. Tamoxifen, raloxifene, or clomid post-cycle would restore function of the HPTA axis, and I'd imagine Beta-HCG would prime the ole Sertoli-Leydigs to bounce back to it pretty quickly if used during a cycle. (Regarding the earlier post, I'd use B-HCG more during the cycle to keep up cellular/receptor stimulation/production than after a cycle)

Using a statin or something of that nature and some niacin would seem like a wise move, as well. Probably fish oil.