LUCOM Hate

[TheWolfOfMainStreet]

This is an absurd discussion.

Liberty University is a school formed with a religious foundation in mind. If you agree with that foundation, you'll likely like the school. If you disagree but respect their faith, you'll probably be fine too. If you dislike and/or disrespect their beliefs, you won't like the school.

It's all about your religious point of view.

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[YeezyQ]

I understand that, and I am fully willing to engage in debate productive discussion as well. However, believing that the earth is 5000 years old and that we walked with dinosaurs is simply incorrect and not the grounds for such productive discussion.

I also dont care what percentage of the professors prescribe to such beliefs. I stated earlier that my main problem with LU is with the parent organization/the Fallwells, a point that thenewyorker1995 conveniently left out

But how are we supposed to educate the general public or make any progress if we don't understand or respect their creation viewpoint? If you can learn and engage in a debate and present the science in a way that makes sense then maybe just maybe you can change their mind, thus, making it a productive discussion.

 

[kuzy]

Not understanding how the Fallwell's have any effect on the quality academia aside for providing incredible amounts of money to provide top of the line facilities. So if you would like to elaborate on this by all means.

It has absolutely nothing to do with it, admittedly. I honestly have no idea what the curriculum is at LUCOM or their facilities beyond that they have a creationism museum. I do know that they were founded by one of the most despicable men in America to ever call himself a pastor, and that my tuition money would be in some form going to Jerry Fallwell Jr., who in addition to carrying on his father's abhorrent legacy is also the president of LU. That was and remains my main problem with the school

 

[kuzy]

But how are we supposed to educate the general public or make any progress if we don't understand or respect their creation viewpoint? If you can learn and engage in a debate and present the science in a way that makes sense then maybe just maybe you can change their mind, thus, making it a productive discussion.

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree with that entirely and am always open to a discussion. Thing is that most of the people I have met that believe the earth is 5000 years old are often times the least receptive to having their mind changed. That being said, I don't see how offering both evolution and creationism up as competing theories is a fair discussion at this point. The sheer extensiveness of the evidence found in the fossil record, genetics, development, and morphology of organisms make presenting the two as equals completely dishonest

 

[YeezyQ]

I found the Student Handbook for LUCOM: https://www.liberty.edu/media/1290/pdfs/LUCOM-Student-Handbook.pdf

 

[thenewyorker1995!]

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree with that entirely and am always open to a discussion. Thing is that most of the people I have met that believe the earth is 5000 years old are often times the least receptive to having their mind changed. That being said, I don't see how offering both evolution and creationism up as competing theories is a fair discussion at this point. The sheer extensiveness of the evidence found in the fossil record, genetics, development, and morphology of organisms make presenting the two as equals completely dishonest

There is thick irony in everything you say.

 

[kuzy]

There is thick irony in everything you say.

Whatever dude. Youre the one who necro-quoted what I said 3 months ago with your first post on sdn. If you're finding irony with what I am saying then you're looking too hard. Let me try to make it clearer for you: I am more than willing and readily accept any opportunity to bounce ideas off my religious friends about life/how we got here (and often do), but I do not agree that evolution and creationism should be presented as equals because they are not. Seriously, at this point it would be like debating with someone who thinks the sky is red instead of blue.

More importantly (and for the third time now) this is all still completely unrelated to both my main issues with LU as well as the topic of the thread

 

[mcloaf]

There is thick irony in everything you say.

Evolution--fact or fiction?

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

There are no "perspectives" on evolution and the origin of the planet. There is what is right and what is wrong. I think teaching creationism as an alternative to evolutionary theory is absurd, and I would hope that anyone entering a scientific field such as medicine would believe the same.

LUCOM teaches evolutionary based science... the end. If i can match up PP lectures that i have from Duke with the ones at LUCOM, and First-aide chapters, then i'm going to say we are taught biochem pretty much the same as everyone else. The beliefs of the proff's are put aside to abide by the rules of the AOA and their educational standards.

 

[kuzy]

LUCOM teaches evolutionary based science... the end. If i can match up PP lectures that i have from Duke with the ones at LUCOM, and First-aide chapters, then I'm going to say we are taught biochem pretty much the same as everyone else. The beliefs of the proff's are put aside to abide by the rules of the AOA and their educational standards.

True, but this has never been about LUCOM for me. I said a few posts ago that I didn't know much about LUCOM's curriculum or facilities so thanks for clearing that up. My main complaints have always been with the parent organization/Fallwells and the teaching of creationism to undergrads. If you even just google "liberty university creationism" you'll see a link to their creationist institute, a curriculum for a minor in creation studies, and about 5 articles about some of their "science" (geology and biology from what I saw) professors defending or writing books about creationism. Going to a university that condones this to get a science education, whether it be as an undergraduate in biology or as a medical student, is something that I would not personally be able to reconcile.

 

[osteodoc7]

Liberty U is an institution that has a huge conservative backing. Every year it will have a large number of politicians that will address the students on campus. Now most of these politicians are republican( though Sanders spoke during his campaign). Almost every conservative has heard of (and most love) Liberty U. So if you're reading these posts and worried that people and hospital administrators will look down at your application because you went to a school associated with Liberty U undergrad, then you're probably right. But though it might not be represented on SDN, there's roughly 50% of the American population that is conservative and will admire the fact that you had President Trump address your graduating class. So if you want to land a residency in the most liberal part of America, maybe LUCOM is not the best option. Stick to any conservative state, apply in rural areas and you will never have an issue because you attended a christian conservative school.

 

[TheWolfOfMainStreet]

Liberty U is an institution that has a huge conservative backing. Every year it will have a large number of politicians that will address the students on campus. Now most of these politicians are republican( though Sanders spoke during his campaign). Almost every conservative has heard of (and most love) Liberty U. So if you're reading these posts and worried that people and hospital administrators will look down at your application because you went to a school associated with Liberty U undergrad, then you're probably right. But though it might not be represented on SDN, there's roughly 50% of the American population that is conservative and will admire the fact that you had President Trump address your graduating class. So if you want to land a residency in the most liberal part of America, maybe LUCOM is not the best option. Stick to any conservative state, apply in rural areas and you will never have an issue because you attended a christian conservative school.

Would just note that this effect works both ways. Liberals may look down on it and conservatives may favor you for it.

 

[osteodoc7]

Would just note that this effect works both ways. Liberals may look down on it and conservatives may favor you for it.

That was my point. Doors will open and doors will close. But I would argue that many Liberals don't even know about Liberty U and so they might not have a bias towards the school. On the other hand, I have never met a conservative that is not aware of Liberty U. I think if readers are worried about attending LUCOM it should not be because of the political standpoint or religious affiliation. It should be because they are new, have not presented a match list and accept some subpar students (like many new schools) meaning maybe you're just not prepared yet for medical school. Accepting students with very low gpa's would explain the apparent high attrition rate.

 

[TheWolfOfMainStreet]

On the other hand, I have never met a conservative that is not aware of Liberty U.

As someone on the right side of the political spectrum, I can confirm that this is true.

 

[cactusman]

Science is an open exchange of ideas and thought and there is never a right or wrong it's either 0.0001% or 99.999%. Anyways, I think it's a wonderful opportunity if they teach both perspectives because it forces you to think critically. Do you really think that all the professors there believe in creationism? I wish I had a class where I could learn both perspectives and engage in debate and discussion. Maybe if this happened all of our CARS scores would go up.

Their undergrad is teaching students that the most likely explanation for the development of life on Earth is young Earth creationism - in other words, it is telling them to look beyond or misinterpret the evidence in order to fit a religious text. Without commenting further on the medical school's teaching and the university's requirements for student behavior, I'll say that their undergraduate biology curriculum is actively harmful to students' critical thinking and not the forum for diverse thought and discussion which you are making it to be.

 

[coppernickel]

That was my point. Doors will open and doors will close. But I would argue that many Liberals don't even know about Liberty U and so they might not have a bias towards the school. On the other hand, I have never met a conservative that is not aware of Liberty U. I think if readers are worried about attending LUCOM it should not be because of the political standpoint or religious affiliation. It should be because they are new, have not presented a match list and accept some subpar students (like many new schools) meaning maybe you're just not prepared yet for medical school. Accepting students with very low gpa's would explain the apparent high attrition rate.

Really appreciate your perspective on this. Thank you for adding this. It confirms my thoughts on LUCOM.

 

[kristysmiles]

Just to clarify, the medical school has their own code of conduct. We do have homosexuals in our classes, and as far as I'm aware they aren't negatively impacted by it. As for alcohol consumption the policy direct from the code of conduct is "Refrain from the use alcohol, tobacco, or other drug in any manner that could compromise themselves or patient care." So it's not saying refrain from use, but if you use it in an unprofessional manner, then yes there may be repercussions. We are professional students and given the independence to live as such, but if there is obvious misconduct, they'll respond, just as any other medical school would. There also has been no mention of creation in our classes. You can look down on the school for it's ties to the Undergraduate campus, or you can be grateful that it is an osteopathic school that actually has an undergraduate campus, because it provides a variety of additional opportunities and events. I personally am super happy that I can go to the SnowPlex, use the rockwall, indoor soccer fields, indoor track, pool, etc. at the gym, can go to sports events, equestrian center, and other recreational events, etc for FREE. We also get the opportunity to do OMM and sports medicine for athletes at these events. It's also in an amazing area, and the school itself has the best view of the Appalachians in Lynchburg. If you are looking for a very supportive community, great faculty and facility, and an abundance of opportunities in the community then go to LUCOM. Liberty also has a Law school, nursing school, and athletic training department and LUCOM is very dedicated to providing integrated training to give students the best and most rounded experiences they can. If you can't get over the fact that they are Christian, pray, and sometimes share their beliefs (which are very in line with osteopathy in general), then there are plenty of other schools that I'm sure would be happy to take you.

 

[jl lin]

Please there are people from all walks of life EVERYWHERE. Haters, by their very nature, will continue to hate. Be impervious to it. Forget the bias and look at each practitioner according to her/his own dedication and competence. Don't hold your breath waiting for everyone to agree with you on things. Partnerships, both professional and otherwise, would never exist if people dug their heals in waiting for others to agree with them on everything. Just work to respect and get along with others--whether they are Christians, homosexuals, Jews, atheists, whatever. I don't think a school should be excoriated for having certain beliefs, so long as they aren't forcing others to follow them, which is not really what true Christianity is about anyway. If they meet the academic and practicum requirements, then evaluate them on those things.

 

[jl lin]

You forgot abhorrent politics of their parent organization.

Faculty who don't know what they're doing....based multiple student PMS to me.

What does this mean, "Faculty who don't know what they're doing?" I think that if there is strong issue with the academics, this should be expounded upon.

 

[Blanky]

A good friend of mine just matched EM from their first class and said he loved it... Results may vary.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

Just to clarify, the medical school has their own code of conduct. We do have homosexuals in our classes, and as far as I'm aware they aren't negatively impacted by it. As for alcohol consumption the policy direct from the code of conduct is "Refrain from the use alcohol, tobacco, or other drug in any manner that could compromise themselves or patient care." So it's not saying refrain from use, but if you use it in an unprofessional manner, then yes there may be repercussions. We are professional students and given the independence to live as such, but if there is obvious misconduct, they'll respond, just as any other medical school would. There also has been no mention of creation in our classes. You can look down on the school for it's ties to the Undergraduate campus, or you can be grateful that it is an osteopathic school that actually has an undergraduate campus, because it provides a variety of additional opportunities and events. I personally am super happy that I can go to the SnowPlex, use the rockwall, indoor soccer fields, indoor track, pool, etc. at the gym, can go to sports events, equestrian center, and other recreational events, etc for FREE. We also get the opportunity to do OMM and sports medicine for athletes at these events. It's also in an amazing area, and the school itself has the best view of the Appalachians in Lynchburg. If you are looking for a very supportive community, great faculty and facility, and an abundance of opportunities in the community then go to LUCOM. Liberty also has a Law school, nursing school, and athletic training department and LUCOM is very dedicated to providing integrated training to give students the best and most rounded experiences they can. If you can't get over the fact that they are Christian, pray, and sometimes share their beliefs (which are very in line with osteopathy in general), then there are plenty of other schools that I'm sure would be happy to take you.

Snowflex*

 

[jl lin]

Crickets chirping. . . . If something is someone's personal bias, professional integrity says that they should say so, otherwise, it's libelous, period. Sigh. If there is something that objectively and reasonably demonstrates true incompetence or the like, than the negative statement is fair and reasonable. By common law, the standards generally are based on burden of proof relative to the truth or falsity of a statement. Personal bias has no place in professional practice. If there is something truthful that is damaging and of substance, than by all means, pony up with it. Otherwise, simply say this is my belief, bias, or the belief of others who have shared their opinions with me.

 

[kuzy]

Crickets chirping. . . . If something is someone's personal bias, professional integrity says that they should say so, otherwise, it's libelous, period. Sigh. If there is something that objectively and reasonably demonstrates true incompetence or the like, than the negative statement is fair and reasonable. By common law, the standards generally are based on burden of proof relative to the truth or falsity of a statement. Personal bias has no place in professional practice. If there is something truthful that is damaging and of substance, than by all means, pony up with it. Otherwise, simply say this is my belief, bias, or the belief of others who have shared their opinions with me.

Who are you even talking to?

 

[deleted600623]

Who are you even talking to?

Think they’re addressing the general SDN way of thinking in regards to LUCOM. I agree with what they’re saying as well. Also what makes LUCOM different from Loma Linda? From what I recall, LLU has an SDA background which is even more stringent than what LUCOM proposes in their code of conduct. Yet LLU is nowhere near put on blast like LUCOM is.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

Posted in the last month on LUCOM's Website:

"Liberty University College of Osteopathic Medicine (LUCOM) has been granted initial accreditation from the Accreditation Council of Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) to begin a new Osteopathic Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine (ONMM) Residency program. The announcement came Thursday evening, June 21, via email. This is the first LUCOM residency program to receive approval since the college was awarded initial accreditation from the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA) on May 10.

“Exactly one-year ago, myself, along with LUCOM faculty, Liberty University President Jerry Falwell, and Provost Dr. Ron Hawkins, all met to discuss our plan to establish an ONMM residency. In our meeting, the President readily endorsed our plan,” said Peter A. Bell, DO, dean of LUCOM. “We all thought it would take at least two years. However, through God’s divine grace, we are a year ahead of schedule. God always has a plan."

...

Dr. Bell. “This is extraordinary. I am truly thankful to the LUCOM faculty and staff that have poured hours into this endeavor. Praise God.”

If we can build a pathway back for them and reinforce our Christ-centered identity and osteopathic heritage, that would be wonderfully gratifying.'"

( LUCOM is awarded initial accreditation for ONMM Residency | Liberty University College of Osteopathic Medicine )

I'll admit it's a personal opinion, but this makes me cringe.
Being so in your face about it is probably a huge turn-off to non-christian patients as well.

 

[kuzy]

Think they’re addressing the general SDN way of thinking in regards to LUCOM. I agree with what they’re saying as well. Also what makes LUCOM different from Loma Linda? From what I recall, LLU has an SDA background which is even more stringent than what LUCOM proposes in their code of conduct. Yet LLU is nowhere near put on blast like LUCOM is.

I gotcha, that makes sense. I'm just confused because they're calling someone libelous which is not an accusation people should use lightly, and doing so after the conversation ended back in November. The views I presented at least were all based on personal opinion and had more to do with hating the Falwell's and everything they stand for rather than LUCOM itself. As for Loma Linda, I think the lack of such an abhorrent parent organization is part of the reason they are viewed more positively.

 

[SterlingMaloryArcher]

I just want to add some more (in my opinion) obnoxiousness of the school:

" Liberty University College of Osteopathic Medicine (LUCOM) achieved a new milestone in its history as 126 student-doctors were honored through graduation into the osteopathic profession on Saturday, May 19. This was the first class to graduate since the COM opened August 2014. Graduates were symbolically hooded inside the main sanctuary of Thomas Road Baptist Church, the same location as the inaugural White Coat Ceremony.

Dr. Bell said, “The Lord was faithful. God navigated the waters and with His help, we are here today for your graduation celebration.”

( LUCOM achieves new milestone, graduates first-class of osteopathic physicians | Liberty University College of Osteopathic Medicine )

Way to speak for everybody. It would be extremely difficult to go here if you were not a Christian, and a rather serious protestant Christian if that.

 

[jl lin]

Who are you even talking to?

This goes to the person that made the statement in this thread:"Faculty who don't know what they're doing?. It was previously addressed. Nonetheless, it may also be seen as a general statement.

No. the person (as well as others) made statements. I asked this person to expound upon such with something of substance rather than MERE bias and students here and there complaining. The person talked about "based on students" comments. Lord, students often complain about this or that, and that is totally fine.

But if you are a person that is sought out for advice and such here and/or a professional, I believe it behooves the person to put up with substance or just say, "This is my opinion and how I feel, etc." In other words, expertise or not, bias is bias, and we have to weigh that in in order to make intelligent decisions. Substantial facts that reflect poor academics or practicum/clinical preparation and such, well now that is something people should definitely know. That's fine. If that is the case, I think it indeed should be shared if it is true and of substance; b/c students here should have insight into such things.

No one else would like such a statement made of them out of some unmeasured bias. That would totally wrong. The Golden Rule is still a good rule.

 

[jl lin]

Posted in the last month on LUCOM's Website:

"Liberty University College of Osteopathic Medicine (LUCOM) has been granted initial accreditation from the Accreditation Council of Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) to begin a new Osteopathic Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine (ONMM) Residency program. The announcement came Thursday evening, June 21, via email. This is the first LUCOM residency program to receive approval since the college was awarded initial accreditation from the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA) on May 10.

“Exactly one-year ago, myself, along with LUCOM faculty, Liberty University President Jerry Falwell, and Provost Dr. Ron Hawkins, all met to discuss our plan to establish an ONMM residency. In our meeting, the President readily endorsed our plan,” said Peter A. Bell, DO, dean of LUCOM. “We all thought it would take at least two years. However, through God’s divine grace, we are a year ahead of schedule. God always has a plan."

...

Dr. Bell. “This is extraordinary. I am truly thankful to the LUCOM faculty and staff that have poured hours into this endeavor. Praise God.”

If we can build a pathway back for them and reinforce our Christ-centered identity and osteopathic heritage, that would be wonderfully gratifying.'"

( LUCOM is awarded initial accreditation for ONMM Residency | Liberty University College of Osteopathic Medicine )

I'll admit it's a personal opinion, but this makes me cringe.
Being so in your face about it is probably a huge turn-off to non-christian patients as well.

And if that makes you cringe, that's your "feeling," which you are entitled to. What has it to do with academics and preparation for medicine, etc?

There are things that make me cringe about places, schools, institutions, the government, etc, but I can strive to separate personal beliefs and feelings from facts and substance. I feel like this must be done in medicine and healthcare all the time. I can't let a patient's attitude or bias affect by ability to look at the facts and do what needs to be done.

 

[Goro]

Here is why I can't recommend LUCOM: I have a profound distaste for the politics of their parent organization; their Faculty make blatant attempts to twist facts to match their theology.

From the wise gyngyn: Liberty is poorly regarded due to the history of intolerance of their founding fathers. This school's reputation for intolerance puts its grads at a disadvantage at many reputable residency programs.

That's all I will say, lest this thread be banished to the SPF.