Marriage and Name Changing

[SoCuteMD]

Update your post when you actually get engaged.


As stated, name changes and rings are powerful symbols. The may represent ownership to some, love to others, fill in the blank for what it means to you. They are important symbols and to disregard them is to challenge social norms and traditions.

Have fun with that.

Ah yes, the whole "Your opinion doesn't count if you are single." Anyways, there's no arguing with chauvinist pigs, that's for certain.

I remember asking a serious boyfriend if he would mind if I kept my name. He laughed and said, "Nah, I always figured I'd marry the kind of woman who would keep her name." Another asked if I'd be willing to take his last name as my middle name, which I thought was a nice idea and I would have gladly done had things worked out. He suggested that he would do the same with my last name - making it his middle name.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[sindadel]

That's really great! Congrats on the three years!

PM me in 10. That's when your likelihood of staying together decreases precipitously.

Chance favors the prepared.

Perhaps for you, being prepared involves issuing ultimatums about your spouse's behaviour.

In my marriage, being prepared involves spending a lot of time, effort and attention on maintaining the marriage. In preparation for an extended period of stress such as medical school, we've been doing preventative maintenance. We'll be seeing a counsellor (for the first time) in order to discuss systems and checkpoints for keeping our relationship on track. Superficialities like what your name is, or who does the dishes are not really important. Sure, my DH would like it if I had taken his name - that's a cultural value. But the cost to me was too high for it to be reasonable after the initial cuteness wore off.

I haven't worn a wedding ring for a few years because I don't typically wear jewellery and it was annoying to be scratching my babies with it. However, I'll be wearing one in school as an external signal that I am married. Taking my husband's last name is not an external signal of anything unless you live in a small town where your last name is an important part of the assumptions surrounding your general worth and lot in life.

Finally, I think it's fairly ridiculous that on the one hand, you are telling Jolie "PM in 10 years" and on the other, you say, "Good for you for defying statistics." There's not much luck in our having been together for 15 years and married for 11 - there is a lot of planning, forethought and work.

How long have YOU been married? What qualifies YOU to identify issues which have not come up in any reputable study of marriage I have seen? Adults do not view an unwillingness of a spouse to change her/his name as an underlying lack of commitment to the relationship.

 

[Skymastre]

Ah yes, the whole "Your opinion doesn't count if you are single." Anyways, there's no arguing with chauvinist pigs, that's for certain.

I remember asking a serious boyfriend if he would mind if I kept my name. He laughed and said, "Nah, I always figured I'd marry the kind of woman who would keep her name." Another asked if I'd be willing to take his last name as my middle name, which I thought was a nice idea and I would have gladly done had things worked out. He suggested that he would do the same with my last name - making it his middle name.

It's a cute story. Thanks

 

[SoCuteMD]

It's a cute story. Thanks

As will your divorce settlement be . Hmmmm...wonder what 50% of a medical degree is going for these days...

 

[Skymastre]

Perhaps for you, being prepared involves issuing ultimatums about your spouse's behaviour.

In my marriage, being prepared involves spending a lot of time, effort and attention on maintaining the marriage. In preparation for an extended period of stress such as medical school, we've been doing preventative maintenance. We'll be seeing a counsellor (for the first time) in order to discuss systems and checkpoints for keeping our relationship on track. Superficialities like what your name is, or who does the dishes are not really important. Sure, my DH would like it if I had taken his name - that's a cultural value. But the cost to me was too high for it to be reasonable after the initial cuteness wore off.

I haven't worn a wedding ring for a few years because I don't typically wear jewellery and it was annoying to be scratching my babies with it. However, I'll be wearing one in school as an external signal that I am married. Taking my husband's last name is not an external signal of anything unless you live in a small town where your last name is an important part of the assumptions surrounding your general worth and lot in life.

Finally, I think it's fairly ridiculous that on the one hand, you are telling Jolie "PM in 10 years" and on the other, you say, "Good for you for defying statistics." There's not much luck in our having been together for 15 years and married for 11 - there is a lot of planning, forethought and work.

How long have YOU been married? What qualifies YOU to identify issues which have not come up in any reputable study of marriage I have seen? Adults do not view an unwillingness of a spouse to change her/his name as an underlying lack of commitment to the relationship.

I hope stuff works out for you, glad to hear you are sticking with your spouse and trying to make things work and I am sure you'll be successful in it all.

I'm not trying to point arguments to individuals or individual experiences. I am saying that, on the whole, people behave in certain predictable ways.

One of those ways is to have important symbols and rituals be a part of there lives. Rings, name changes, wedding ceremonies (whatever) are important. The vast majority of people need these tangibles for success in whatever it is they do. Look at how doctors cling to their white coats (funny when I notice Starbucks workers in the hospital doing the same and flipping their badge around...).

There are probably many individuals that never exchange rings or give up last names, and many of these will have happy and successful marriages. However, I don't think this is the norm and it's probably a sure bet that failing to subscribe to social conventions can be perilous.

Post a poll on SDN asking for gender and if last names are important. I'd be interested to see in this convenience sample where they numbers lie.

 

[Skymastre]

As will your divorce settlement be . Hmmmm...wonder what 50% of a medical degree is going for these days...

Ha ha.

I don't know what 50% of a med degree would be...I guess it depends on if universal health insurance becomes a reality.

That's a different thread though.

 

[Jolie South]

I hope stuff works out for you, glad to hear you are sticking with your spouse and trying to make things work and I am sure you'll be successful in it all.

I'm not trying to point arguments to individuals or individual experiences. I am saying that, on the whole, people behave in certain predictable ways.

One of those ways is to have important symbols and rituals be a part of there lives. Rings, name changes, wedding ceremonies (whatever) are important. The vast majority of people need these tangibles for success in whatever it is they do. Look at how doctors cling to their white coats (funny when I notice Starbucks workers in the hospital doing the same and flipping their badge around...).

There are probably many individuals that never exchange rings or give up last names, and many of these will have happy and successful marriages. However, I don't think this is the norm and it's probably a sure bet that failing to subscribe to social conventions can be perilous.

Post a poll on SDN asking for gender and if last names are important. I'd be interested to see in this convenience sample where they numbers lie.

I'd like to see data that support this.

 

[Skymastre]

I'd like to see data that support this.

Me too. That's why I posted earlier and said a study would be really interesting that examined underlying reasons for divorce.

Until that study comes about, I'll have to make judgment based on what we know about civilizations and their reliance on symbolism and bonding rituals.

 

[DrJD]

I don't see how refusing a superficial change alone is predictive of marital failure. I think there are much more important factors that contribute to divorce.

The problem is that its not superficial! It may seem that way when you are in your early twenties in medical school and much more about "me" then "us"... But it really isn't superficial... If it were superficial, then why are their women on here so concerned with keeping their "identity"? If it were superficial, why would it not be an easy decision to change?

I have a shelf exam coming up, so I didn't have time to read through the entire thread. However, ladies out there, let me tell you something. As a happily married man of almost two years, I can tell you that there is a tremendous amount of truth to the saying, "Women need to be loved, men need to be respected."
By telling your future husband that you are not going to take his last name...a sign of total disrespect (barring extraording circumstances). So you are not called "Dr. MyLastName". Get over yourself. Marriage is all about compromise and submitting to the needs/hopes/desires of your significant other. So ladies, please get your marriage started off "on the right foot." Please take you husband's last name.

Stepping off of the soapbox,

AK

SOOOO true, did you read the "Love and Respect" book? My wife and I loved that book, it really did help make our marriage even better than it was! Good advice!

You're assuming that all men care as much as you do about a name change.

Just because the guy doesn't care when he is in medical school and 25 years old, doesn't mean he wont care when he's older.

It is a sign, a symbol... Like someone above said, it is a symbol of independence. Independence in a marriage will eventually lead to a divorce, unless you aren't looking for a marriage, but rather a steady, room mate like relationship. Will not changing the name always lead to independence? No, but it is certainly a strong indicator...

Someone else said something like, "why should have to lose my identity?" Something like that... That IS what marriage is all about!! 2 become 1... The whole point is that it stops being about your identity, and it starts being about your new identity as a family. Part of solidifying family unity is having the same name, that is just common sense.

I respect that some women don't want to, and can totally understand why. But again I would caution women that just because it seems like people on this thread are pro don't change your name, I don't think that is the general sentiment out in the world. And, also, just because your husband is okay with it now, doesn't mean he will be once he grows out of the young independent stage he is in also. It seems like the independent stage lasts much later these days, but eventually it will stop being about you, and start being about the family.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[DrJD]

It's a good thing not all men feel the way you two do. I never have been and never will be anyone's property. No man I've ever dated seriously has ever expected that I would become such, either, even when marriage was discussed.

Of course you will! Now if you say it like "property" it sounds wrong, but the whole point of marriage is that you belong to each other. So if we are sticking with the "property" word... Sure you are his, but he is yours! That is what marriage is all about, otherwise it would just be dating...

 

[DrJD]

Adults do not view an unwillingness of a spouse to change her/his name as an underlying lack of commitment to the relationship.

I am an adult and I disagree with this. I actually would view that unwillingness as some level of lack of commitment. To me it is the same thing as a pre-nup... "Dear, I love you and want to be with your forever, but just in case..."

Fortunately it was important to my wife to change her name so signal that we were a family so we didn't have to work through it, but if we had it would have been very difficult. Seems women are offended when their husband-to-be offers a prenup, well if my wife-to-be had offered a "i'm not chaning my name" it would have been a very hard pill to swallow.

But again, it depends on what your marriage is about. Marriage used to be, and I think still should be, about "oneness" and being a couple. But it seems like marriage for the younger generation is become two independent people who live together, and have a dating type relationship. Not that any of you posting here are like this, I dont know you, just things I've observed in my friends and peers.

 

[Jolie South]

The problem is that its not superficial! It may seem that way when you are in your early twenties in medical school and much more about "me" then "us"... But it really isn't superficial... If it were superficial, then why are their women on here so concerned with keeping their "identity"? If it were superficial, why would it not be an easy decision to change?

SOOOO true, did you read the "Love and Respect" book? My wife and I loved that book, it really did help make our marriage even better than it was! Good advice!

Just because the guy doesn't care when he is in medical school and 25 years old, doesn't mean he wont care when he's older.

It is a sign, a symbol... Like someone above said, it is a symbol of independence. Independence in a marriage will eventually lead to a divorce, unless you aren't looking for a marriage, but rather a steady, room mate like relationship. Will not changing the name always lead to independence? No, but it is certainly a strong indicator...

Someone else said something like, "why should have to lose my identity?" Something like that... That IS what marriage is all about!! 2 become 1... The whole point is that it stops being about your identity, and it starts being about your new identity as a family. Part of solidifying family unity is having the same name, that is just common sense.

I respect that some women don't want to, and can totally understand why. But again I would caution women that just because it seems like people on this thread are pro don't change your name, I don't think that is the general sentiment out in the world. And, also, just because your husband is okay with it now, doesn't mean he will be once he grows out of the young independent stage he is in also. It seems like the independent stage lasts much later these days, but eventually it will stop being about you, and start being about the family.

Just my 2 cents.

There's controversy because it's a PITA to change your name. Credit cards, social security card, passports, driver's license, etc. Also, because it's the gender stereotyped behavior of what we're "supposed" to do. God forbid someone has an independent thought and does what they think is best and is then criticized for it, much like in this thread.

I'm not in my "early 20s" and neither is my husband, so I'd watch the generalizations. I have a valid point of view that you're writing off as youthful immaturity. I know many others that feel the same as I do that are older than me and in academia. I support my husband 100% and know that he feels the same about me. I don't need to change my name to prove that. It's the sentiment that's important not the label.

 

[DrJD]

I'm not in my "early 20s" and neither is my husband, so I'd watch the generalizations. I have a valid point of view that you're writing off as youthful immaturity. I know many others that feel the same as I do. I support my husband 100% and know that he feels the same about me. I don't need to change my name to prove that. It's the sentiment that's important not the label.

I wasn't writing you off as young or immature... I am confident that if you took everyone in American who felt the way you did, 80 percent would fall into the category I described, of younger...

I'm glad you have a good marriage, and of course your point of view is valid. It just differs from mine, and the majority of America. Although, the way America is going I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 20 years your view became the majority.

Not attacking, but I feel like subset that feels the way you do, and the subset that use SDN overlap a lot, so in case there are lurkers who feel differently I think its important that they know that SDN is not a representative sample. Just like how in the pre-allo forum it is important for pre-meds to know that the average MCAT score is not a 35, even though you'd get that impression from the forum.

So, no offense towards you, just offering a different point of view...

 

[Skymastre]

Not attacking, but I feel like subset that feels the way you do, and the subset that use SDN overlap a lot, so in case there are lurkers who feel differently I think its important that they know that SDN is not a representative sample. Just like how in the pre-allo forum it is important for pre-meds to know that the average MCAT score is not a 35, even though you'd get that impression from the forum.

People on this thing never remember this and tend to think of themselves as 'the norm'

This site is the worst type of convenience sample.

 

[sindadel]

Well duh, many women are offended when offered a pre-nup. Why? Because women are overwhelmingly more likely to sacrifice their career for family needs and thus end up earning less than their husbands even if they start out on the same career path with similar potential. Women who already have their own assets and perhaps children from a previous marriage are much less likely to be offended by a pre-nup - in fact, they are quite likely to suggest one.

Changing one's name is different because only one party is expected to do so. I know a number of couples who have both changed their names to a composite last name. THAT is a true sign of commitment. Changing your name is a significant cost. And it is one-sided in the context we are talking about. What other action in a modern marriage is so one-sided?

Specifically, for you men who are insisting that if a woman does not want to change her name it is a sign of lack of commitment, what is the one sided thing that only the man gives up going into a marriage?

Finally, my husband and I do not have a room-mate type, independent marriage. We have a romantic marriage where we work together, parent together and spend as much time as possible together. We don't have traditional spheres of influence. In every way, we are equal partners. I can't imaging being more of a couple or any more together than we are.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Of course you will! Now if you say it like "property" it sounds wrong, but the whole point of marriage is that you belong to each other. So if we are sticking with the "property" word... Sure you are his, but he is yours! That is what marriage is all about, otherwise it would just be dating...

So, I don't see any reason a man can't take a woman's last name if it really is about "joining two families" and not "I own you now."

 

[Skymastre]

Specifically, for you men who are insisting that if a woman does not want to change her name it is a sign of lack of commitment, what is the one sided thing that only the man gives up going into a marriage?

Before someone flames me for being un-pc, this was a huge theme in my women's studies course years ago...

Men give up the chance to reproduce with multiple women. Spreading the seed, if you will. I don't mean to offend, but men are hardwired to have intercourse with many. I make a billion sperm a year.

My ring symbolizes that I am going against biology and sacrificing for a higher cuase. Frankly, I have grown to love my ring and what it means, in the same way that changing their names can mean things for many women.

 

[Jolie South]

I wasn't writing you off as young or immature... I am confident that if you took everyone in American who felt the way you did, 80 percent would fall into the category I described, of younger...

I'm glad you have a good marriage, and of course your point of view is valid. It just differs from mine, and the majority of America. Although, the way America is going I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 20 years your view became the majority.

Not attacking, but I feel like subset that feels the way you do, and the subset that use SDN overlap a lot, so in case there are lurkers who feel differently I think its important that they know that SDN is not a representative sample. Just like how in the pre-allo forum it is important for pre-meds to know that the average MCAT score is not a 35, even though you'd get that impression from the forum.

So, no offense towards you, just offering a different point of view...

I understand that it's my point of view, and I have presented it as such. That doesn't mean it's "wrong" because it's not the majority.

I have no problem with people that want to change their name. If you feel it's necessary, do it. I just don't understand the judgment and insinuations that keeping a maiden name dooms a marriage to divorce. Frankly, you can't know what's going on behind the decision or in the relationship.

 

[DrJD]

I understand that it's my point of view, and I have presented it as such. That doesn't mean it's "wrong" because it's not the majority.

I have no problem with people that want to change their name. If you feel it's necessary, do it. I just don't understand the judgment and insinuations that keeping a maiden name dooms a marriage to divorce. Frankly, you can't know what's going on behind the decision or in the relationship.

I'm not judging you... Or anyone, but when most of the people you know who keep the last name end up divorced, you can draw conclusions.. Anecdotal? Yes... Definitive, definitely not...

My goal isn't to say that you are "wrong." Again, just to make sure that everyone on here knows that many men still care about this, myself included.

 

[sindadel]

A man may make a billion sperm a year, but it's clear from our species' mild sexual dimorphism that the polygamy ratio is at most 1 man to about 1.2 women, or every 5th guy has two women on the go.

And since the woman is likewise expected to maintain fidelity, this is not a one-sided cost. It could well be to the woman's genetic advantage to team up with a few other women for cost-of-living reduction and have children by different fathers: one businessman, one poet, one athlete etc. This is even a "strategy" employed by women today.

And FWIW, I don't mind if a woman changes her last name. Why should I? It doesn't affect me, or my marriage. And from what I can see, it doesn't mean diddly-squat about her commitment to the marriage, good or bad.

 

[JeffLebowski]

It's a good thing not all men feel the way you two do. I never have been and never will be anyone's property. No man I've ever dated seriously has ever expected that I would become such, either, even when marriage was discussed.

Girl power = cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[quiz]

conversation with fiance went something like this -

i was reading this forum about women changing their last names.

uh huh

do you want to do anything about it when we get married? do you care if i take your name?

eh, why bother? it's just a pain right?

yeah, kinda. plus your name sounds kinda weird to me.

so don't.

okay. cool.

 

[quiz]

he also said i could change my ring if i decided i didn't like it later on. or not wear it. Also there's the option to upgrade my engagement ring after a couple of years, as his aunts and mom did. an extra 1/4 carat every 5 years or something. so yeah, i'm marrying him!

btw i've been proposed to multiple times and he is the only one i'm following through with. cause all the others felt they had a claim on me as soon as i said yes. so i ran for my life (literally).

weddings are superficial. so is christmas. there are giant industries whose sole purpose is to make you feel obligated to do certain things for these two occasions. ALL of which involve you spending money. Coincidence?

i'm using mine as an excuse to throw a phat party, wear a pretty dress, and be the center of attention. view-check, food-check, bar-check. everything else is bonus.

things mean as much as they have meaning to you.

he means the world to me and as long as he's there, that's all that matters.

 

[MrBurns10]

I have a shelf exam coming up, so I didn't have time to read through the entire thread. However, ladies out there, let me tell you something. As a happily married man of almost two years, I can tell you that there is a tremendous amount of truth to the saying, "Women need to be loved, men need to be respected."
By telling your future husband that you are not going to take his last name...a sign of total disrespect (barring extraording circumstances). So you are not called "Dr. MyLastName". Get over yourself. Marriage is all about compromise and submitting to the needs/hopes/desires of your significant other. So ladies, please get your marriage started off "on the right foot." Please take you husband's last name.

Stepping off of the soapbox,

AK

I'll get right on that. Followed by quitting my MD degree and becoming a stay at home soccer mom, doing all the housework, and all the cooking. Why just submit to one of my fiance's desires when I can submit to them all?? THE ULTIMATE SIGN OF RESPECT!

If you think "respect" is tied solely into taking his last name (which, in case you didn't know, began as a way of becoming a man's property), then I feel kind of sorry for you. What about him compromising for my needs/desires? Or is it all about the man? Given all this, the follow-up question is: you may be happily married, but is she?

The only place I'll be submitting to my fiance is in the bedroom. And that's by choice.

 

[JeffLebowski]

I'll get right on that. Followed by quitting my MD degree and becoming a stay at home soccer mom, doing all the housework, and all the cooking. Why just submit to one of my fiance's desires when I can submit to them all?? THE ULTIMATE SIGN OF RESPECT!

If you think "respect" is tied solely into taking his last name (which, in case you didn't know, began as a way of becoming a man's property), then I feel kind of sorry for you. What about him compromising for my needs/desires? Or is it all about the man? Given all this, the follow-up question is: you may be happily married, but is she?

The only place I'll be submitting to my fiance is in the bedroom. And that's by choice.

Wow, you gals are pretty worked up over this. Did anyone suggest you quit your degree? Soccer mom? Housework? Cooking? Submitting to every desire? Did anyone suggest that respect is tied solely to the whole name-changing thing? Did anyone suggest the man wouldn't compromise on anything? It sounds like you're horrendously exaggerating what was said and putting extremist opinions in his mouth. It sounds like you want us to be saying something worse so that you can declare your indignation.

Stop being so dramatic. I think it's hilarious that the girls on this thread are the ones saying convention, ritual, and symbolism is stupid and the guys are saying the appreciate them as symbols of commitment. That one girl even said she didn't care about her ring, wedding, or Christmas. You in her camp? You really think she speaks for women? You really think men are out to imprison you in their diabolical plan to exert their ownership over women? It must suck to live with that belief.

Men play along with your womanly whims and desires and offer plenty of "gestures of respect", some at drastic compromise to their own sense of self.

And if I have to hear/see one more tv/radio commercial where a sharp-as-a-tack smarmy sarcastic wife is chastising her idiot-can't-do-anything-right husband I'm going to burst a berry, because it's tacky, frankly offensive, and worse - unoriginal. And if I see one more sitcom with a stupid aging stand-up comic and his "family" where he plays a maritally-castrated and emasculated family man with a pretty, but sassy wife ten times "smarter" than him that has his balls in a jar and holds sex over his head like he's lucky to have it when she deigns he's been "good" and his kids are smart as a whip and they all crap on him all day with this whole "durrrr, a ***** like me's lucky to have my crazy family!" theme I'll just throw my TV off the balcony.

So don't tell me women are some enslaved oppressed disrespected population, you've had the respect of us all as mothers and wives and partners since the dawn of time, and since the 90's you've been gaining ground socially & professionally so that now you make up 50% of medical school classes and get your "needs" from maternity leave to part-time work to breast-pumping during USMLE exams catered to. As a society we've done a damn good job so far of ironing out ACTUAL inequities between men and women (discrimination, preference, stereotyping), it's pretty stupid of you to claim now that this ONE thing is somehow a huge threat to the livelihood of women's freedom everywhere.

You know what? I took my parents' last name, but it's pretty obvious to me that I'm not their "property" and they don't think I am. I'm guessing you took your parents' name as well and didn't create your own in a gesture of "defining yourself" and never thought twice about it. At least if you CHOSE to take your husband's name, it would be an active choice on your part you could be proud to make, and for a good reason (respect, desire to establish a formal and socially-defined relationship/family, symbol of unity), rather than keeping your dad's last name just for the hell of it. But hey, your call.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

^That post sounds very serial-killer'ish.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Before someone flames me for being un-pc, this was a huge theme in my women's studies course years ago...

Men give up the chance to reproduce with multiple women. Spreading the seed, if you will. I don't mean to offend, but men are hardwired to have intercourse with many. I make a billion sperm a year.

My ring symbolizes that I am going against biology and sacrificing for a higher cuase. Frankly, I have grown to love my ring and what it means, in the same way that changing their names can mean things for many women.

I can't believe that no one's pointed out that this is utter and complete bull****. Fidelity is not one-sided--women have to be loyal too. They have to commit to watch out for this person's well-being, bear and share the brunt of the responsibility for taking care of his children, make career sacrifices in the name of his family, grow old with him, take care of him in his old age, etc, etc. Marriage and all its responsibilities are a sacrifice for both parties and it's nothing short of nonsensical and ill-informed to say that being faithful to this marriage from a sexual and emotional standpoint is only a sacrifice for men. I'm sad to hear that from a supposedly educated person.

Clearly people are allowed to have different opinions on the whole name change issue. You can't see yourself marrying someone who wouldn't take your name--fine, it's worked out for you (thus far). But this comment just took the discussion to a whole new level of foolishness.

As a side note, it always amuses me to see how many "educated" people will believe some sweeping and grand claim based on the anecdotal evidence from their own life. It's called confirmation bias people.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Wow, you gals are pretty worked up over this. Did anyone suggest you quit your degree? Soccer mom? Housework? Cooking? Submitting to every desire? Did anyone suggest that respect is tied solely to the whole name-changing thing? Did anyone suggest the man wouldn't compromise on anything? It sounds like you're horrendously exaggerating what was said and putting extremist opinions in his mouth. It sounds like you want us to be saying something worse so that you can declare your indignation.

Stop being so dramatic. I think it's hilarious that the girls on this thread are the ones saying convention, ritual, and symbolism is stupid and the guys are saying the appreciate them as symbols of commitment. That one girl even said she didn't care about her ring, wedding, or Christmas. You in her camp? You really think she speaks for women? You really think men are out to imprison you in their diabolical plan to exert their ownership over women? It must suck to live with that belief.

Men play along with your womanly whims and desires and offer plenty of "gestures of respect", some at drastic compromise to their own sense of self.

And if I have to hear/see one more tv/radio commercial where a sharp-as-a-tack smarmy sarcastic wife is chastising her idiot-can't-do-anything-right husband I'm going to burst a berry, because it's tacky, frankly offensive, and worse - unoriginal. And if I see one more sitcom with a stupid aging stand-up comic and his "family" where he plays a maritally-castrated and emasculated family man with a pretty, but sassy wife ten times "smarter" than him that has his balls in a jar and holds sex over his head like he's lucky to have it when she deigns he's been "good" and his kids are smart as a whip and they all crap on him all day with this whole "durrrr, a ***** like me's lucky to have my crazy family!" theme I'll just throw my TV off the balcony.

So don't tell me women are some enslaved oppressed disrespected population, you've had the respect of us all as mothers and wives and partners since the dawn of time, and since the 90's you've been gaining ground socially & professionally so that now you make up 50% of medical school classes and get your "needs" from maternity leave to part-time work to breast-pumping during USMLE exams catered to. As a society we've done a damn good job so far of ironing out ACTUAL inequities between men and women (discrimination, preference, stereotyping), it's pretty stupid of you to claim now that this ONE thing is somehow a huge threat to the livelihood of women's freedom everywhere.

You know what? I took my parents' last name, but it's pretty obvious to me that I'm not their "property" and they don't think I am. I'm guessing you took your parents' name as well and didn't create your own in a gesture of "defining yourself" and never thought twice about it. At least if you CHOSE to take your husband's name, it would be an active choice on your part you could be proud to make, and for a good reason (respect, desire to establish a formal and socially-defined relationship/family, symbol of unity), rather than keeping your dad's last name just for the hell of it. But hey, your call.

Not quite sure why you're going on this diatribe (obviously bigger issues than name changes here) but I think Burns was getting at the fact that what it means for a wife to respect her husband evolves over time. Before it was a disrespect for a wife to want to work outside the home. Before it was a disrespect for her to want to use contraception. Before it was a disrespect to do any number of things, including contradict him in public, wanting him to help with household chores, make a scene about discreet affairs, not submit to sex at every single moment when he was interested, etc etc. Changing one's name is just another sign of respect that is evolving such that it is no longer a necessary sign of respect anymore, and the fact in and of itself that it is a traditional sign of respect does not really hold much sway in terms of arguing why society should not continue to evolve away from this convention.

 

[sindadel]

I can't believe that no one's pointed out that this is utter and complete bull****. Fidelity is not one-sided--women have to be loyal too.

No it's alright. I pointed this out many posts back, albeit not as eloquently as you just did. They haven't really had time to address it yet...

 

[MrBurns10]

Wow, you gals are pretty worked up over this. Did anyone suggest you quit your degree? Soccer mom? Housework? Cooking? Submitting to every desire? Did anyone suggest that respect is tied solely to the whole name-changing thing? Did anyone suggest the man wouldn't compromise on anything? It sounds like you're horrendously exaggerating what was said and putting extremist opinions in his mouth. It sounds like you want us to be saying something worse so that you can declare your indignation.

Stop being so dramatic. I think it's hilarious that the girls on this thread are the ones saying convention, ritual, and symbolism is stupid and the guys are saying the appreciate them as symbols of commitment. That one girl even said she didn't care about her ring, wedding, or Christmas. You in her camp? You really think she speaks for women? You really think men are out to imprison you in their diabolical plan to exert their ownership over women? It must suck to live with that belief.

Re-read the post that I was responding to and reconsider whether or not I was being overly dramatic. He claimed that not changing your name was "the ultimate disrespect" and that there is truth to the saying that "women need to be loved, men need to be respected" (kind of implies the opposite isn't as important, right?).

My whole point was basically what scarlet said, that historical convention has led us to believe what is respect and what isn't. Women were their husband's property and had few individual rights, which was symbolized (there's that word again) by her taking her husband's last name. If I don't want to continue that convention, is that really disrespectful? If a woman wants to, that's fine! But no woman should feel like she has to or that she should out of respect for her man. He should be respectful of her wishes as well, which was my point. I think the coolest thing to do, out of respect for both family names and identities, is just to combine the names. Unfortunately, any combination with my fiance's name sounds awful.

Convention is constantly changing. Women now have more rights than they've ever had (in the US, at least). But we aren't "equal" by any stretch of the imagination. Women may be able become doctors now, but ask any mother/wife who does most of the housework/cooking and who takes care of the kids more? As long as the man isn't a stay-at-home dad, the vast majority of the time it's the woman.

And your analogy to taking your parents' name doesn't really hold. You became part of your family when you're born, signified by your being given the family last name. That convention had nothing to do with property.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Girl power = cutting off your nose to spite your face.

FWIW, I meant that wasn't their perception of marriage to begin with rather than "RAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRR, I SET HIM STRAIGHT!"

 

[Gut Shot]

However, ladies out there, let me tell you something.

Ah yes, talking down to the ladies. What could go wrong?

By telling your future husband that you are not going to take his last name...a sign of total disrespect (barring extraording circumstances). So you are not called "Dr. MyLastName". Get over yourself. Marriage is all about compromise and submitting to the needs/hopes/desires of your significant other. So ladies, please get your marriage started off "on the right foot." Please take you husband's last name.

I have told my wife repeatedly to do whatever the Hell she wants with her name. Keep it, take mine, whatever. My dick is just not so small as to make an issue out of it.

 

[DrJD]

Awesome post Lebowski!!

Seriously, this thread is quasi-pointless. Yes, all of you SDN users are coming on here arguing that women shouldn't let their husbands own them by changing their name, blah blah blah.

We get it, seriously. SDN is NOT a representative sample.

"According to a recent study by Harvard economics professor Claudia Goldin, based on Massachusetts birth records, the number of college-educated women in their 30s keeping their name has dropped from 23 percent in 1990 to 17 percent in 2000." This is from a piece in this article, http://www.slate.com/id/2097231/ (Every other resource I found had it right around this same percentage, + or - 3%)

Personally I don't really agree with this author's reasons, but I do agree with her conclusions. She seems to suggest perhaps you should change your name, and she gives reasons, but they are all practical reasons as opposed to what we have been dicussing here, ie commitment, etc.

The point is, that according to this study, of women who get married in their 30's, those who are most likely to keep their maiden name because they've used it for so long, only 17 percent keep it right now... Hmmm, 17 percent choose to break tradition and keep it, while 83% choose to take their husbands name. If you went based on this thread, you'd think 95% of all women feel they are violated by their husbands name.

Obviously, no consensus will every be reached here because again, these are SDN users. The type of people that SDN attracts are the type of people who score 35 on the MCAT, have a 4.0, lean liberal, type A, extremely firm beliefs, and obviously mostly believe a women should keep her Dad's name. (As a huge argument for not name changing is the ownership issue, I don't really see how the Father has more "ownership" than the husband, but whatever floats your boat.) (BTW- I don't view the name as ownership, but was merely drawing an argument for the few posters that have said this, I know not all of you invoked the ownership argument, so no need to harp on it.)

Again, we get it, women's power. 17% of women in the real world feel this way, while 83% don't have a problem with taking their husbands name. SDN represents a MINORITY. So, don't take the percentages of opinions displayed here as representative.

EDIT: To add, I thought the article above made an interesting argument for those people who decide to combine last names and how it negates the "purpose" of a surname. I hadn't really thought about that, but it makes sense... I also thought her argument about where women who don't take their husbands last name fit into the family tree. Seems like things could get confusing really fast...

 

[Jolie South]

Again, we get it, women's power. 17% of women in the real world feel this way, while 83% don't have a problem with taking their husbands name. SDN represents a MINORITY. So, don't take the percentages of opinions displayed here as representative.

I think what's more important is that it's a minority that is growing and might become a social norm with time, much like women working outside the home, having rights to property, etc. in the past. Most social changes start with a minority.

Men need to be aware that there are women out there that *gasp* won't necessarily be jumping at the chance to change their names and even worse, you could end up with one. I think this percentage will be higher in academia (i.e. medicine) where names are attached to accomplishments and publications.

 

[MrBurns10]

Seriously, this thread is quasi-pointless. Yes, all of you SDN users are coming on here arguing that women shouldn't let their husbands own them by changing their name, blah blah blah.

I don't think anyone is arguing that changing your name now signifies ownership...that's just the not-so-innocent origin of the convention.

 

[DrJD]

I think what's more important is that it's a minority that is growing and might become a social norm with time, much like women working outside the home, having rights to property, etc. in the past. Most social changes start with a minority.

Men need to be aware that there are women out there that *gasp* won't necessarily be jumping at the chance to change their names and even worse, you could end up with one. I think this percentage will be higher in academia (i.e. medicine) where names are attached to accomplishments and publications.

The study I quoted

According to a recent study by Harvard economics professor Claudia Goldin, based on Massachusetts birth records, the number of college-educated women in their 30s keeping their name has dropped from 23 percent in 1990 to 17 percent in 2000." This is from a piece in this article, http://www.slate.com/id/2097231/

Seems to indicate that the opposite is happening. That the feminist movement from the 70's and 80's that caused the increase in women wanting to keep their maiden name is actually slowing down. A decrease in 6 percent over 10 years according to this one study...

Again, the type of women who generally wants to keep their name wouldn't have been attractive to me when I was single, so I never worried about it. And luckily, my wife was excited to take my last name when we started our family so I never had to deal with it.

All that to say, that I doubt there will be many couples that get into heated debates about this because they probably wouldn't have made it to the point of engagement if they disagreed about something so fundamental... (Not that name changing is fundamental, but it signifies fundamental thoughts on marriage and independence.)

 

[Water011]

Interesting that you refer to a woman's original last name as "her dad's name" and to her possible married last name as "her husband's name." Her husband's last name is his dad's last name, but as a man he gets to call it "his?"

 

[Jolie South]

The study I quoted



Seems to indicate that the opposite is happening. That the feminist movement from the 70's and 80's that caused the increase in women wanting to keep their maiden name is actually slowing down. A decrease in 6 percent over 10 years according to this one study...

Again, the type of women who generally wants to keep their name wouldn't have been attractive to me when I was single, so I never worried about it. And luckily, my wife was excited to take my last name when we started our family so I never had to deal with it.

All that to say, that I doubt there will be many couples that get into heated debates about this because they probably wouldn't have made it to the point of engagement if they disagreed about something so fundamental... (Not that name changing is fundamental, but it signifies fundamental thoughts on marriage and independence.)

I didn't realize we were a type.

I guess I'll go back to emasculating my husband, protesting bras, and not shaving my armpits now with hopes that I'll be the horrible wife and mother I was meant to be.

 

[DrJD]

I didn't realize we were a type.

I guess I'll go back to emasculating my husband, protesting bras, and not shaving my armpits now with hopes that I'll be the horrible wife and mother I was meant to be.

Stereotypes exist for a reason

Edit: I think it is fair to say that most women who want to keep their last name value their independence highly. I'm not saying thats bad. I'm just saying that "type" of woman wouldn't be the kind I "courted." My wife and I are very committed to the 1 + 1 = 1 model of marriage. Please, I'm not putting you down. I'm sure there are women who keep their last name, who value interdependence more highly than independence. But, as a whole, yes, there is a type. Not a "bad" type, just not my type.

 

[DrJD]

Interesting that you refer to a woman's original last name as "her dad's name" and to her possible married last name as "her husband's name." Her husband's last name is his dad's last name, but as a man he gets to call it "his?"

Interesting, unless you realized that it is a comparison... You have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise you wouldn't stop at fathers, or grandfathers... So by your line of reasoning we should just all have the same last name?

A wife has to have one of two last names... That which comes from her Dad, or that which comes from her husband... Just makes more sense to me to take the mans. But again, I'm tired of disputing the merits of the name change. Roughly 83% of the country agrees with me, and I really am not that concerned with changing you 17%. That being said, this thread has really shown how socially liberal SDN truly is. So if nothing else positive has come from this thread, at least that has been demonstrated.

 

[Water011]

A wife has to have one of two last names... That which comes from her Dad, or that which comes from her husband... Just makes more sense to me to take the mans. But again, I'm tired of disputing the merits of the name change. Roughly 83% of the country agrees with me, and I really am not that concerned with changing you 17%. That being said, this thread has really shown how socially liberal SDN truly is. So if nothing else positive has come from this thread, at least that has been demonstrated.

But with your line of reasoning you should be saying "that which comes from her dad or that which comes from [her husband's dad]." The point I was raising was that you were calling her husbands birth last name "his" last name while you were calling the woman's birth last name "her dad's" last name. The woman's original last name is just as much hers as her husband's last name is his. It's silly to call it her dad's. Once your born, it's YOUR last name. If we didn't think that, we'd have to call everyone's last name their "great-great-great-great-great. . . .you know where I'm going with this. . .grandfather's last name".

 

[MrBurns10]

All that to say, that I doubt there will be many couples that get into heated debates about this because they probably wouldn't have made it to the point of engagement if they disagreed about something so fundamental... (Not that name changing is fundamental, but it signifies fundamental thoughts on marriage and independence.)

Can I ask what these fundamental differences are? And you keep using the word "independence"...what does it mean to be independent in a marriage?

 

[DrJD]

Can I ask what these fundamental differences are? And you keep using the word "independence"...what does it mean to be independent in a marriage?

There are those that view marriage as two people existing, distinctly from one another. There are others that view marriage as the combining of two, into one unit.

You see these distinctions in dating relationships as well. Some couples view their personal friendships, and other areas of their life as equally important as their relationship. Again, others place the relationship first.

So traditionally, and to many people today, marriage if represented by an equation would be 1 +1 = 1... Not that you give up who you are, but that you cease being independent and are now a unit. There are others that view marriage as 1 + 1 = 2. These are the people that I believe display independence in marriage, because they wish to hold on to their individual "oneness." If you think about all of the couples you have known through your life I'm sure you can think of couples that have displayed these characteristics.

I believe, that most people, men and women, who believe that a woman should keep her maiden name would also say that marriage is a 1 + 1 = 2 equation. While those of us on this board, and else where, that argue the opposite, would probably describe it as 1 +1 = 1...

Don't know if that answers your questions... While neither one of these types of relationships is "wrong", they seem to me to be fundamentally different ways at looking at a relationship.

 

[MrBurns10]

I believe, that most people, men and women, who believe that a woman should keep her maiden name would also say that marriage is a 1 + 1 = 2 equation. While those of us on this board, and else where, that argue the opposite, would probably describe it as 1 +1 = 1...

I'm not sure I understand how this idea would change the relationship. Can you give some examples of how a 1+1=2 would be different than a 1+1=1?

 

[Suenya]

Just a silly premed here, but I thought I would share my experience.

My wife took my last name. We are both extremely independent people in our relationship, probably very unlike what DrJD is describing. She's a nurse (planning on doing CNS training while I am in school), so she had to get her license updated, among other things, and it was a HUGE hassle, although probably less than for someone with publications, or still currently in school.

She asked me if I had any preference about names before we got married. I told her that I preferred her to take my name, or add it to hers somehow, but that if she didn't want to I would be fine with that. My main concern (if you could call it that, it didn't really rise to that level) was about the symbolism of familial unity, mainly for when we have children.

I highly doubt the fate of our marriage is at all related to our decision, either way. I think if one person in the relationship feels more strongly about it than the other, when you discuss it it's important to think about their feelings. I personally wouldn't want to change my name, although I would have considered it if she really wanted me to. I am not sure, if, for example, she had publications under her name if it would be worth it for something like that.

A few posters have said things about not liking a man who would want you to change your name, or not liking a woman who wouldn't want to change theirs, and I think that is a bit silly. While there probably are types of people that skew about caring either way who you might not like, people can be a bit quirky, so there may be a special, important reason why someone would care. And you might be able to love them anyway (at least enough to consider discussing why you disagree with them).

 

[easyrock]

I'm not sure I understand how this idea would change the relationship. Can you give some examples of how a 1+1=2 would be different than a 1+1=1?

The difference between 1+1=2 and 1+1=1 is how you view and play your role in a marriage or committed relationship; "I" or "We".

 

[MrBurns10]

The difference between 1+1=2 and 1+1=1 is how you view and play your role in a marriage or committed relationship; "I" or "We".

I get that, I was hoping for examples. Because I'm friends with a lot of people who are independent, both male and female, and have great "we" marriages. I mean, I'm not changing my last name and we're couples matching and I'd go do residency in Idaho if it meant we would be together. So, I'm just curious what an "I" marriage would look like. Certainly, I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not the woman changes her name, but that's why I'm asking.


Not North Dakota, though. I'm not going to North Dakota.

 

[Blesbok]

Whatever you do, don't hyphenate. And if for some crazy ass reason, you do hyphenate, don't use both of them on anything but your driver's license. I honestly hate women that have these 42 letter last names because they decided they should hyphenate their last name. If you don't want to take his last name, just keep your own.

 

[secret25]

Just a silly premed here, but I thought I would share my experience.

My wife took my last name. We are both extremely independent people in our relationship, probably very unlike what DrJD is describing. She's a nurse (planning on doing CNS training while I am in school), so she had to get her license updated, among other things, and it was a HUGE hassle, although probably less than for someone with publications, or still currently in school.

She asked me if I had any preference about names before we got married. I told her that I preferred her to take my name, or add it to hers somehow, but that if she didn't want to I would be fine with that. My main concern (if you could call it that, it didn't really rise to that level) was about the symbolism of familial unity, mainly for when we have children.

I highly doubt the fate of our marriage is at all related to our decision, either way. I think if one person in the relationship feels more strongly about it than the other, when you discuss it it's important to think about their feelings. I personally wouldn't want to change my name, although I would have considered it if she really wanted me to. I am not sure, if, for example, she had publications under her name if it would be worth it for something like that.

A few posters have said things about not liking a man who would want you to change your name, or not liking a woman who wouldn't want to change theirs, and I think that is a bit silly. While there probably are types of people that skew about caring either way who you might not like, people can be a bit quirky, so there may be a special, important reason why someone would care. And you might be able to love them anyway (at least enough to consider discussing why you disagree with them).

Great post.

Planning on keeping my parent's last name, they're incredible people and have done more for me than I could have ever hoped for. Whoever I end up marrying, I plan to have a nice long talk to them about it, and seeing how he feels. If he can convince me otherwise that makes me happy about the decision, I would then talk to my parents about it, and see where I ended up. But, on the other hand, if I ended up convincing him otherwise, he'd have to have a nice long talk with his parents and seeing how they'd feel. We'd then have to have a talk about what we'd name their kids. However, I could never marry someone who demanded I change their name, like a few of you who have already posted, because that's not the kind of girl I am. I have friends who are just as 'independent' as I am, but their last name doesn't mean much to them, so they're changing it. Kudos to them, because they're making the decision that's right for them. I'm flexible, but I would only be flexible for a guy who's also flexible. Honestly, to each their own, I just think it's ridiculous that some of you on this board think keeping your last name signifies an unhappy marriage that will then lead to divorce.

 

[scarletgirl777]

There are those that view marriage as two people existing, distinctly from one another. There are others that view marriage as the combining of two, into one unit.

You see these distinctions in dating relationships as well. Some couples view their personal friendships, and other areas of their life as equally important as their relationship. Again, others place the relationship first.

So traditionally, and to many people today, marriage if represented by an equation would be 1 +1 = 1... Not that you give up who you are, but that you cease being independent and are now a unit. There are others that view marriage as 1 + 1 = 2. These are the people that I believe display independence in marriage, because they wish to hold on to their individual "oneness." If you think about all of the couples you have known through your life I'm sure you can think of couples that have displayed these characteristics.

I believe, that most people, men and women, who believe that a woman should keep her maiden name would also say that marriage is a 1 + 1 = 2 equation. While those of us on this board, and else where, that argue the opposite, would probably describe it as 1 +1 = 1...

Don't know if that answers your questions... While neither one of these types of relationships is "wrong", they seem to me to be fundamentally different ways at looking at a relationship.

I don't even know what you mean by this. I would guess that most married women who choose to keep their last name because they're published or they have a professional life or they don't want to go through the hassle and cost have changing paperwork at social security office, credit bureaus, etc do think that their marriage to their husband is their most important adult relationship (I am allowing for relationships with you and your husband's children here.) I'd like to know what in the world would make you guess that the vast majority of these women think that any one of the much more casual relationships they have with other people, many of whom have their own spouses, is more important that their relationships with their husbands. It seems if they did not feel that strongly about the person, they would not be married.

I think that you are constructing a false dichotomy here in order to justify your concern about other people's wives not changing their names.