Marriage and Name Changing

[Excelsius]

I'll be getting married in December and plan on changing my name. I do have one friend who didn't change her last name and her husband is a bit bitter about it. I am more traditional and always planned on changing it.

That's the thing. If your husband doesn't like it and you do it anyway, this is already a bad sign. I bet it is always going to remain in the subconscious and come up whenever there is a major fight, eating away the relationship. I Know that in some cultures women do not change their last names, but people living in any one culture adapt to that society to fit in. In America, for some reason it is accepted to change the last name - as if the two people become one. As such, it is not excepted that during some social interactions with other couples the issue may be somewhat awkward and alienating. I think that when two people are completely in love, taking the last name or not taking it will not even be an issue. If it is, even slightly, I guess beware. We need a study and divorce and satisfaction rates based on last names correlations.

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[Gut Shot]

That's the thing. If your husband doesn't like it and you do it anyway, this is already a bad sign. I bet it is always going to remain in the subconscious and come up whenever there is a major fight, eating away the relationship.

This could also happen if the woman doesn't want to do it but the husband acts like a toolshed until she relents.

There will always be points of contention, and it's not always one person's fault if the other can't grow up and get over something.

 

[DrJD]

I think the argument that changing the last name is "a real hassle." Or "go through the hassle and cost have changing paperwork at social security office, credit bureaus, etc"

People posting this have you actually gone through the process? It took my wife 5 hours to change her name everywhere. We got back from our honeymoon and she started making calls around 8, left around 9 in the morning on a Friday, and was done by 1 PM that same day. How is that a big deal?

I also think the publication thing is hilarious. I gaurantee you that you don't have so many publications, or great enough publications that if you change your name the nobel prize committee wont' be able to find you. It is EXTREMELY easy for a women to change her last name. Why? Because it is the societal norm and they dont' want women to have to go through a "hassle" to do it. However, if a man wants to change is last name it is truly a hassle and includes a court appearance in front of a judge.

All that to say, if you don't want to change your name fine. But don't pull the "Hassle" card as a reason.

 

[DrJD]

PS most of the situations where I know the woman and man to have a different last name from one another in a marriage are due to the cultural norms of their foreign cultures.

Like in some parts of Kerala in India, the woman and her children takes her husband's first name as her last name while the husband will have retained his father's first name as his last name.

with many muslims, women and men have different last names. For instance, one muslim friend of mine her brother and her have different last names as is true of her parents. Its kinda difficult to explain and different then what we think of here.

In India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh there are many customs such as this depending on your beliefs.

so I'm not sure that it has anything to do with independence always.

You are right, there are plenty of times where it isn't done out of independence. Whenever I have mentioned that, if I wasn't clear before, I was merely generalizing based on the majority. After all the trend to keep your maiden name came from the feminist movement emphasizing women's independence.

That being said, there are definitely some cultural, and other, reasons why people do this that have nothing to do with how the women looks at the relationship, or themselves.

 

[SoCuteMD]

I think the argument that changing the last name is "a real hassle." Or "go through the hassle and cost have changing paperwork at social security office, credit bureaus, etc"

People posting this have you actually gone through the process? It took my wife 5 hours to change her name everywhere. We got back from our honeymoon and she started making calls around 8, left around 9 in the morning on a Friday, and was done by 1 PM that same day. How is that a big deal?

I also think the publication thing is hilarious. I gaurantee you that you don't have so many publications, or great enough publications that if you change your name the nobel prize committee wont' be able to find you. It is EXTREMELY easy for a women to change her last name. Why? Because it is the societal norm and they dont' want women to have to go through a "hassle" to do it. However, if a man wants to change is last name it is truly a hassle and includes a court appearance in front of a judge.

All that to say, if you don't want to change your name fine. But don't pull the "Hassle" card as a reason.

The other side of the publications thing are the career connections you may have built. This isn't an issue for women who get married before or even during medical school. I interviewed at several residency programs (and rotated at one) where I would really love to work after I finish residency. Regardless of whether I get a job there, I'd like to maintain the connections I have but I sincerely doubt they'd recognize me if my resume came across their desk attached to a different name.

As for the "hassle" of changing your name, I'm not sure how exactly your wife managed to do it in 5 hours. It's taken friends of mine several weeks and two or three days to manage between the social security office, the DMV, and various banks (one bank required a notarized statement signed in blue ink be mailed to their corporate office, it still took 3 months for them to process). If your wife was able to do it in 5 hours, I'd guess she didn't have any credit cards, car registration, or savings accounts to her old name. As an aside, the guy I know who changed his name did it the Friday afternoon before he got married (with some planning). Court was not much more of a hassle than the social security office, I guess.

 

[DrJD]

I don't even know what you mean by this. I would guess that most married women who choose to keep their last name because they're published or they have a professional life or they don't want to go through the hassle and cost have changing paperwork at social security office, credit bureaus, etc do think that their marriage to their husband is their most important adult relationship (I am allowing for relationships with you and your husband's children here.) I'd like to know what in the world would make you guess that the vast majority of these women think that any one of the much more casual relationships they have with other people, many of whom have their own spouses, is more important that their relationships with their husbands. It seems if they did not feel that strongly about the person, they would not be married.

I think that you are constructing a false dichotomy here in order to justify your concern about other people's wives not changing their names.

You are missing the point. It is not necessarily about who is more important, although I have personally seen many cases where it is. The point behind it is just the way the relationship runs. For example, most independant couples, also choose to have independent bank accounts. They tend to maintain a large group of friends that only they hang out with seperate from their spouse. On the other hand, couples that tend to have joint bank accounts, joint friends, etc differ from them.

I'm not saying which is right, but if you know more than two couples I would guess that you know couples that fall into these broad artificially defined categories. Not every married couple has the same type of relationship. Some do everything together and their lies literally revolve around each other, and others are more independent. You know that couple in high school who disappear while they are dating? Thats because they are all about the relationship (Now whether that is a good thing i high school is up for debate, lol), however, we also know that couple who was dating seriously but still kept all the same friends, still went to parties separately etc.

Great post.

Planning on keeping my parent's last name, they're incredible people and have done more for me than I could have ever hoped for. Whoever I end up marrying, I plan to have a nice long talk to them about it, and seeing how he feels. If he can convince me otherwise that makes me happy about the decision, I would then talk to my parents about it, and see where I ended up. But, on the other hand, if I ended up convincing him otherwise, he'd have to have a nice long talk with his parents and seeing how they'd feel. We'd then have to have a talk about what we'd name their kids. However, I could never marry someone who demanded I change their name, like a few of you who have already posted, because that's not the kind of girl I am. I have friends who are just as 'independent' as I am, but their last name doesn't mean much to them, so they're changing it. Kudos to them, because they're making the decision that's right for them. I'm flexible, but I would only be flexible for a guy who's also flexible. Honestly, to each their own, I just think it's ridiculous that some of you on this board think keeping your last name signifies an unhappy marriage that will then lead to divorce.

I think it is great how much you respect your parents. I'm sure they are honored by your love for them and your respect for them. However, you are setting yourself up for some potential marital problems.

Marriage is all about leaving a cleaving. You truly must "leave" your parents and become a unit with your husband. By maintaining your parents name, its a constant reminder that you aren't fully in the unit with your husband. (Now, don't harp on this. I know some of you have said you kept your maiden name and are in the relationship and its great. But sometimes it isnt about whats true, but its about what your husband perceives. So I am saying, that to your husband, he may perceive this that way.)

I know you love your Dad, but once you get married your husband is supposed to fill the role that your Dad filled up until that point. There is an inherent desire by a man to be respected and loved by his wife, and part of that respect is knowing that you look to him and not your Dad anymore. Your parents will always be your parents and you should always honor them, but I'm sure they understand that when you get married you are starting a new family. Did your mom keep her maiden name? I am guessing that your parents both have the same name, and that you enjoy that, even if on a subconscious level because it truly does create a feeling of family unity.

Anyway, I truly do admire how much you love your parents. But independent of the "name change issue," if it feels to your husband like you love and respect your parents more than him, that will cause problems.

 

[DrJD]

The other side of the publications thing are the career connections you may have built. This isn't an issue for women who get married before or even during medical school. I interviewed at several residency programs (and rotated at one) where I would really love to work after I finish. Regardless of whether I get a job there, I'd like to maintain the connections I have but I sincerely doubt they'd recognize me if my resume came across their desk attached to a different name.

As for the "hassle" of changing your name, I'm not sure how exactly your wife managed to do it in 5 hours. It's taken friends of mine several weeks and two or three days to manage between the social security office, the DMV, and various banks. If your wife was able to do it in 5 hours, I'd guess she didn't have any credit cards, car registration, or savings accounts to her old name.

Of course she did, if you make an appointment at the DMV, you can be in and out in under a half hour. Credit cards is a simple phone call and perhaps mailing a copy of your marriage certificate, and I don't know what bank you are at, but we walked in, sat down with the person 5 minutes later and were done after another 10 minutes. If you count the "weeks" it takes from the time they log in to make the appointment with the DMV, to the time they can actually go in I'd believe that. But the thought that it takes 40 hours per week, for 3 weeks to change your name is ridiculous. Oh and the SS office was also easy, it consisted of taking a number and waiting for a half hour to hand them a form.

Credit cards were the easiest because all it takes is a 5 minute phone call.

My wife has managed to maintain connections with previous employment and previous schools with no problem. An occasional, oh yes, my maiden name is "XXXX" is not all that hard. I'm sure that there will be times when as a scientist you may have to make an explanation, but it just isn't as "hard" or as much of a hassle as people make it sound like.

So I am not minimizing the fact that there will be issues, I'm just saying they aren't as big of issues as people on this board think they are.

 

[SoCuteMD]

I know you love your Dad, but once you get married your husband is supposed to fill the role that your Dad filled up until that point. There is an inherent desire by a man to be respected and loved by his wife, and part of that respect is knowing that you look to him and not your Dad anymore. Your parents will always be your parents and you should always honor them, but I'm sure they understand that when you get married you are starting a new family. Did your mom keep her maiden name? I am guessing that your parents both have the same name, and that you enjoy that, even if on a subconscious level because it truly does create a feeling of family unity.

At this point you should just stop talking and go back to pre-allo. The bolded statement has destroyed any credibility you might have had in this conversation.

 

[DrJD]

At this point you should just stop talking and go back to pre-allo. The bolded statement has destroyed any credibility you might have had in this conversation.

Haha... I'm probably older than you and have a lot more life experience, just guessing. But I am not a 20 year old senior in college here...

That being said, that doesn't destroy my credibility. It is a view point consistent with what many people think. Not on these boards, but again we've already discussed how slanted these boards are.

If in a marriage, one or both partners continue to look to their parents for the love they should be betting from their spouse there will be problems. Women aren't the only ones who struggle with this though.

One couple my wife and I spoke with it was actually the man. They were in their mid forties, and the husband would go to see his Mom once a week. And on that trip his mom would take him to the grocery store and buy him groceries. Doesn't seem like a big deal, but after a while they ended up in counseling because the wife felt like her husband was looking to his mother for care instead of to her as his wife.

Don't dismiss accepted ideas that are used by marriage counselors across the country because you dont' understand them. Someday when you end up in marriage counseling and they bring up these well documented ideas, then you'll realize I'm not spouting craziness.

Oh, and unless you have been married for a while I don't know how you can comment on the importance of looking to your spouse for love and respect rather than your parents. So if you are in a long term marriage I apologize and we just disagree, but otherwise you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Of course she did, if you make an appointment at the DMV, you can be in and out in under a half hour. Credit cards is a simple phone call and perhaps mailing a copy of your marriage certificate, and I don't know what bank you are at, but we walked in, sat down with the person 5 minutes later and were done after another 10 minutes. If you count the "weeks" it takes from the time they log in to make the appointment with the DMV, to the time they can actually go in I'd believe that. But the thought that it takes 40 hours per week, for 3 weeks to change your name is ridiculous. Oh and the SS office was also easy, it consisted of taking a number and waiting for a half hour to hand them a form.

Credit cards were the easiest because all it takes is a 5 minute phone call.

My wife has managed to maintain connections with previous employment and previous schools with no problem. An occasional, oh yes, my maiden name is "XXXX" is not all that hard. I'm sure that there will be times when as a scientist you may have to make an explanation, but it just isn't as "hard" or as much of a hassle as people make it sound like.

So I am not minimizing the fact that there will be issues, I'm just saying they aren't as big of issues as people on this board think they are.

I didn't say it had taken her "40 hours a week." I purposely said "several weeks and 2 or 3 days" to convey that there were several days dedicated to getting her name changed over several weeks. I've never lived in a state that offered DMV appointments, and the last time I set foot in a social security office I waited FOUR hours.

As for your wife managing her pre-married connections, I'm glad she was able to do so, but clearly she is in education, where it is almost expected that people will marry and take someone else's name. I'm guessing she doesn't have a doctoral degree already imprinted with her maiden name (which I do). I personally foresee a difficulty maintaining those connections with a different name for several reasons. Medicine and education are very different fields in the way that marriage and kids are perceived by those in charge. Since you aren't actually IN medicine yet, I wouldn't expect you to be able to understand.

 

[DrJD]

Since you aren't actually IN medicine yet, I wouldn't expect you to be able to understand.

Thank you for presuming to know my involvement in medicine based on a "status" indicator on SDN... You are obviously a wiz You just made an ***** out of yourself and "umption".... But its cool, thats how SDN works.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Haha... I'm probably older than you and have a lot more life experience, just guessing. But I am not a 20 year old senior in college here...

That being said, that doesn't destroy my credibility. It is a view point consistent with what many people think. Not on these boards, but again we've already discussed how slanted these boards are.

If in a marriage, one or both partners continue to look to their parents for the love they should be betting from their spouse there will be problems. Women aren't the only ones who struggle with this though.

One couple my wife and I spoke with it was actually the man. They were in their mid forties, and the husband would go to see his Mom once a week. And on that trip his mom would take him to the grocery store and buy him groceries. Doesn't seem like a big deal, but after a while they ended up in counseling because the wife felt like her husband was looking to his mother for care instead of to her as his wife.

Don't dismiss accepted ideas that are used by marriage counselors across the country because you dont' understand them. Someday when you end up in marriage counseling and they bring up these well documented ideas, then you'll realize I'm not spouting craziness.

Oh, and unless you have been married for a while I don't know how you can comment on the importance of looking to your spouse for love and respect rather than your parents. So if you are in a long term marriage I apologize and we just disagree, but otherwise you don't know what you're talking about.

Ah, again with the dismissal of single people as knowing nothing about love and marriage.

I will always look to my parents for love and respect, but that doesn't mean it's the same type of love and respect I expect from a spouse or significant other. They have been my biggest cheerleaders since day 1. They have picked me up and dusted me off more times than I care to count. They were there on days that whoever I marry will have never witnessed - be they highs or lows. To say that it is supposed to be replaced by a spouse is to cut off part of what made your spouse who they are (and what you love). So no, I don't expect to ever stop loving my parents the way I do.

I'm not sure what's with your story about the codependent on his mamma 40 year-old man and groceries. Can't say I care, though.

 

[DrJD]

Ah, again with the dismissal of single people as knowing nothing about love and marriage.

I will always look to my parents for love and respect, but that doesn't mean it's the same type of love and respect I expect from a spouse or significant other. They have been my biggest cheerleaders since day 1. They have picked me up and dusted me off more times than I care to count. They were there on days that whoever I marry will have never witnessed - be they highs or lows. To say that it is supposed to be replaced by a spouse is to cut off part of what made your spouse who they are (and what you love). So no, I don't expect to ever stop loving my parents the way I do.

I'm not sure what's with your story about the codependent on his mamma 40 year-old man and groceries. Can't say I care, though.

Right because, my post boiled down to "stop loving your parents." Man alive, SDN is full of selective readers... I was very clear about the fact that they will always be your parents. But giving marriage advice to someone who hasn't been married is pointless. No matter how serious of a "relationship" you've had, its not the same, sorry.

Oh, and its called an example. Often cited to support a conclusion, anecdotal, sure, but I wasn't going for proof, rather clarification. But if you don't care about clarification, then it makes sense that you would jump to conclusions and assume I was saying you should stop loving your parents.

Good luck

 

[SoCuteMD]

Right because, my post boiled down to "stop loving your parents." Man alive, SDN is full of selective readers... I was very clear about the fact that they will always be your parents. But giving marriage advice to someone who hasn't been married is pointless. No matter how serious of a "relationship" you've had, its not the same, sorry.

Oh, and its called an example. Often cited to support a conclusion, anecdotal, sure, but I wasn't going for proof, rather clarification. But if you don't care about clarification, then it makes sense that you would jump to conclusions and assume I was saying you should stop loving your parents.

Good luck

To imply that your spouse is supposed to "replace" your parents love DOES imply that you are supposed to stop loving your parents THE WAY YOU DO (see, I'm not the only one capable of selective reading) and start loving them differently.


I just thought your "example" was pointless. What 40 year-old lets his mamma buy him groceries? Of course that kind of behavior is going to bother your spouse. It probably wouldn't bother me from the perspective of "He lets her take care of him" but rather from the perspective of, "We're adults and these are the things we do for ourselves, we don't let our parents do them for us."

OTOH, based on your example, it seems that I may already have an adult relationship with my parents. They certainly don't buy me groceries or subsidize my lifestyle. I dont' spend hours on the phone with them. I don't share every detail of my life with them. So, I guess it's possible that my relationship with my parents has matured to that level without me actually having been married. But I guess I wouldn't know anything about that, seeing as I'm single and all.

Also, I never insisted that a "serious relationship" was akin to marriage or drew comparisons.

 

[DrJD]

They certainly don't buy me groceries or subsidize my lifestyle. I dont' spend hours on the phone with them. I don't share every detail of my life with them. So, I guess it's possible that my relationship with my parents has matured to that level without me actually having been married. But I guess I wouldn't know anything about that, seeing as I'm single and all.

Good for you

Its not about actions its a mindset... Believe it or not there are couples that struggle with this. There are people in long marriages, who when they receive bad news will call their parents instead of engaging with their spouse. If someone in a marriage consistently goes outside the marriage anywhere for emotional support they should be getting from their spouse this will create a rift that can be difficult to fix. The parents are the most common source of problems because they they have been their as the primary source of emotional support for many years. But truly, the same problem could occur with friends, co-workers, whoever. The point is, the interdependence that makes marriage so great, and work so well depends upon shifting your reliance's both physically, and emotionally to each other. These aren't crazy concepts, they are just traditional thoughts on marriage. So no, you do not need to stop loving your parents, or stop loving them "the way you do." I'm sorry if I wasn't clear before, hopefully this is better.

The grocery example was just one concrete, easy to see, example of how this could happen. Since you already buy your groceries, I think you're safe from that one. FWIW- The guy didn't want the groceries, but he also didn't tell his Mom not to.

Again, you truly dont' have to agree with it, I would never try to convince SDNers to change their mind, because as we know that wont happen. However, the views I am supporting are not just "mine" they are shared by many people. I'm just trying to make this a balanced thread, so that people who happen by will see that the common SDN belief, as represented by you and pretty much everyone else on this thread, is not the only belief out there.

EDIT: You are right you didnt make the serious relationship = marriage argument. Sorry about attributing that to you, that was my fault...

 

[SoCuteMD]

don't worry. give it a few months and DrJD will be a medical student officially with one acceptance in hand. Furthermore, DrJD was in an SMP program which pretty much had mostly MS 1 courses this past year. so I'm sure its safe to say they know the rigors of medical school and how much of a time crunch it is. There is no reason to get nasty with them about what they do and don't know.

also that is quite strange that your state doesn't do DMV appts. My state usually does that. sorry to hear they inconvenience people that badly. that's a bit stupid. they should get with the times.

My point was that even those with one acceptance and an SMP are quite unaware of the clinical setting and the challenges women face. I made no reference to the time crunch. I wasn't nasty, I was making the point that there was an entire aspect that he was unaware of. Career connections in education =/= career connections in medicine, yet he was trying to draw a parallel.

 

[MrBurns10]

JD, I think the problem comes from your assuming that, in general, independent people (particularly those who don't change their names) have less of a cohesive marriage. Having separate bank accounts was the example you gave, but many many people do this. My parents have a very traditional marriage but they each have their own account in addition to their joint one. And if you were referring to only having independent accounts, I really don't know of anyone who does this after marriage. Anyway, I would argue that maintaining some semblance of individuality is a good thing. You are, after all, still a unique individual and that is not going to change after you get married. That doesn't mean you can't value your marriage above all else.

We're all going to have anecdotes to support our arguments so I won't list mine here. My point is that the strength of one's relationship and the bond that one has with one's partner is in no way related to what names they go by, at least in my opinion. I'll add that it's hypocritical for any guy (not talking about you specifically) to say "we should have the same name to show we're a family unit" but then refuse to take her name or combine names, but this happens all the time in these arguments. And as far as tradition goes, convention is broken all the time. If we always did what was done in the past, women would have no rights, black people would be secondary citizens, and openly gay people would be nonexistent. Just my opinion.

 

[DrJD]

JD, I think the problem comes from your assuming that, in general, independent people (particularly those who don't change their names) have less of a cohesive marriage. Having separate bank accounts was the example you gave, but many many people do this. My parents have a very traditional marriage but they each have their own account in addition to their joint one. And if you were referring to only having independent accounts, I really don't know of anyone who does this after marriage. Anyway, I would argue that maintaining some semblance of individuality is a good thing. You are, after all, still a unique individual.

We're all going to have anecdotes to support our arguments so I won't list mine here. My point is that the strength of one's relationship and the bond that one has with one's partner is in no way related to what names they go by, at least in my opinion. I'll add that it's hypocritical for any guy (not talking about you specifically) to say "we should have the same name to show we're a family unit" but then refuse to take her name or combine names, but this happens all the time in these arguments. And as far as tradition goes, convention is broken all the time. If we always did what was done in the past, women would have no rights, black people would be secondary citizens, and openly gay people would be nonexistent. Just my opinion.

I think it is clear by this point in the conversation that we disagree, but I absolutely respect your opinion and your right to have one.

You kept asking for examples earlier in the thread and I specifically didn't give any because there is always an example where it is true in one instance and not in another. Take for example the bank account topic... Now I feel that in general, two completely seperate accounts tends to promote independence rather than unity in a marriage. But I think you are absolutely right that it does not MEAN that there is independence. It sounds like your parents would be a good example of a couple where the separate accounts doesn't signify anything bad...

And I think that part of our disagreeing is semantics, and I think part of it is substantive. I think by definition you can't have two people be cohesive if they are independent. It seems to me to be an oxymorn to say "independent cohesive people." How can one truly maintain independence and be cohesive and a unit with another? Now, I am NOT trying to say that the independent marriages, that we are talking about occasionally, are bad or doomed to failure, they are just different and I think more prone to certain types of problems. On the reverse, marriages that have less independence are prone to other types of problems, so don't take me to mean that one is immune from problems.

I also agree that some semblance of individuality is a good thing, as long as it takes into consideration my post a few back about relying on each other as the primary source of emotional and physical support. There is a healthy spectrum for the level of independence in a marriage, just like with all things. Form the vehement posts on this thread it would seem that all of you in this thread feel that you are within this healthy spectrum, which is great, but to not acknowledge that there is an unhealthy level of independence as well would be foolish. I also think it goes without saying, especially based on many of the comments on this board, that ones last name is a major source of independence for some women. Therefore, this will be an indicator for SOME marriages that they may be in the unhealthy part of the independent spectrum. The key word is some, so you really don't need to defend your marriage here. Because it goes without saying that if some may be in the unhealthy, the rest would be considered healthy. Only you know if your relationship is the way you want it.

Hopefully, this post was detailed enough that you can see that I disagree, but respect your opinion. And, I suspect we agree on more than we think because we have been using harsher rhetoric, at least I have. So hopefully this post was a little clearer, and less defensive.

 

[SoCuteMD]

DrJD - I find it interesting that you continue to reference unity (which I can appreciate) but you have failed to answer a question that both I and MrBurns have raised. Why, if it's all about being 1 unit, can a man not change his name?

 

[DrJD]

DrJD - I find it interesting that you continue to reference unity (which I can appreciate) but you have failed to answer a question that both I and MrBurns have raised. Why, if it's all about being 1 unit, can a man not change his name?

Why couldn't he?

Edit: That would be a personal decision between the man and woman. Just like it is a personal decision to decide who will work and who, if anyone, will stay at home with the kids. Some men would feel extremely unfulfilled if they were "stay at home dads." Some guys, absolutely love it and wouldn't trade it for anything. I imagine this would be a similar issue. Some men, based on upbringing and personal views, may feel emasculated to change his name to the wife's. I imagine there are some guys who wouldn't care.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Maybe I didn't read all the posts but what does that have to do with the original topic about changing your name if you are a female and married?

I'm confused. I'm not going to read through the whole thread, so I'll let you fill me in on the short version of things.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to find, as it's in the post that you railed on me for.

Here's the pertinent part:

As for your wife managing her pre-married connections, I'm glad she was able to do so, but clearly she is in education, where it is almost expected that people will marry and take someone else's name. I'm guessing she doesn't have a doctoral degree already imprinted with her maiden name (which I do). I personally foresee a difficulty maintaining those connections with a different name for several reasons. Medicine and education are very different fields in the way that marriage and kids are perceived by those in charge.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Just cuz I'm curious since my bro is about to marry someone who is a dentist and became such before marriage, how does name change affect connections in medicine/dentistry?

This is getting more interesting. That was one of the reasons I opened up this thread because my brother's fiance wants to keep her maiden name for professional purposes not legally on the wedding certificate but for professional purposes. Just curious now because I know he was feeling bad about that and I'm curious what the issues are at stake in more detail now. That was why I clicked into this thread in the first place.

I think it really only matters if you are already established in practice or want to be in academics.

I interviewed at a bunch of residency programs and ultimately matched at my #1. However, my #2 and #3 are places that I didn't want to train but felt I would love to work as faculty or do a fellowship. I expect that if my resume were to come across the PDs desk at my #3 (where I also rotated) it might help him remember, "Oh, yeah, I remember her! We worked a shift together when she was a med student. I really hoped she would come here for residency, but I guess better late than never. Let's interview her." However, if my resume comes across his desk with a name he doesn't recognize he might just put it aside for the "later" pile. Of course, I could include our past contact in a cover letter - which may or may not be read or even reach his desk. In addition, the change in name IMMEDIATELY announces that I am recently married and probably going to be popping out babies (given my age). Like it or not, that's a big reason for passing over otherwise qualified candidates in medicine, at least according to people who have spoken candidly to me about it. I would much rather be given a chance to make an impression and letting them come to their own conclusions regarding my marital status. I wouldn't hide it, but I certainly feel that broadcasting it could be potentially detrimental.

In addition, there's the publication issue. According to DrJD

I also think the publication thing is hilarious. I gaurantee you that you don't have so many publications, or great enough publications that if you change your name the nobel prize committee wont' be able to find you.

My issue isn't the Nobel Prize committee, it's potential employers. Say the program I rotated at is headhunting in 4 years, they remember my research interests (which they likely would, as mine align very closely with a prominent faculty member they have) and search for me on PubMed. I got married midway through residency, though, so most of my residency pubs are under my new name. "Oh, that's too bad. She seemed to have a lot of promise. It's unfortunate that she's not doing research any more. Let's see if her collaborator is still working on this topic." My collaborator is unmarried or kept her original last name. They call her up and find out that she is, in fact, looking for an academic position post-residency. Done. Guess who missed out?

In addition, I will admit that it would feel a little sad to look at my medical school diploma - the culmination of 21 years of school and countless hours - and to have that name not be the name I was called on a daily basis. Unfortunately, in order to keep my name professionally I think it has to be my legal name - as it's the one that will appear on my state license and such. I don't think it would be possible to use your non-legal name professionally for this reason.

 

[SoCuteMD]

I've also heard that changing your name once you have a medical license, or even once you've started taking the USMLEs is a nightmare. Obviously it's doable, as many have managed to change their names, but it's a nightmare. If you are married and board certified, add to the people you have to deal with the following: State licensing boards (in ALL states in which you are licensed, many are licensed in their residency state for moonlighting and their post-residency job state. Wisdom is to never let a license lapse once you have it), NBME, your specialty board, and any hospitals at which you are credentialed. I, personally, think the "it's a hassle" argument is kind of a dumb one, but when the time you spend trying to change your name with that number of people is taken away from either a) patients and your paycheck or b) time with your new spouse - it might actually start to gain a little credence with me.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Was thinking as I was cleaning how changing her name might affect your brother's fiancee. I guess I might be a good example. Confession - I don't have my dentist's phone number stored in my phone. I google him every time I need an appointment or need something. Now, imagine I've been seeing this dentist every 6 months, I go to Google her and she's not listed any more. I might drive by the office to see if anyone's there, I might search further. Or, I might ask my friends who they've seen adn like and make appointments elsewhere. Also, the way I have found new dentists when I've moved is to ask my old dentist if they know anyone in my new area. One of those recommendations was a dental classmate. The dentist found me his name and phone # and forwarded my records. If he hadn't been able to find the name, though, I would have had to find a dentist a different way and the potential new dentist would have missed out on a referral.

 

[Gut Shot]

I think the argument that changing the last name is "a real hassle." Or "go through the hassle and cost have changing paperwork at social security office, credit bureaus, etc"

People posting this have you actually gone through the process? It took my wife 5 hours to change her name everywhere. We got back from our honeymoon and she started making calls around 8, left around 9 in the morning on a Friday, and was done by 1 PM that same day. How is that a big deal?

For most people it isn't a big deal, but when you start talking about medical licensure and becoming credentialed for hospital privileges, it's a different ballgame. Getting into FCVS for licensure can already take a friggin' year, and it requires producing transcripts including undergrad, medical school verification, USMLE verification, graduate medical education verification, etc. Every hospital in the country has an office staffed by people whose full time jobs are to research and verify the identities and credentials of the medical staff. As a physician, that means your activities will be traced at least back to medical school, and may involve written documentation of every hospital you have worked in, even for a month. Want to get boarded? You're going to have to vomit up another round of paperwork proving you qualify.

So, while certainly not impossible, navigating this unmitigated mess with a name change thrown in the middle can be a little more involved that switching the electric bill.

 

[secret25]

I know you love your Dad, but once you get married your husband is supposed to fill the role that your Dad filled up until that point. There is an inherent desire by a man to be respected and loved by his wife, and part of that respect is knowing that you look to him and not your Dad anymore. Your parents will always be your parents and you should always honor them, but I'm sure they understand that when you get married you are starting a new family. Did your mom keep her maiden name? I am guessing that your parents both have the same name, and that you enjoy that, even if on a subconscious level because it truly does create a feeling of family unity.

Anyway, I truly do admire how much you love your parents. But independent of the "name change issue," if it feels to your husband like you love and respect your parents more than him, that will cause problems.

My mom has the same last name as my Dad, but she comes from a really traditional culture and refused to do a LOT of the other things that were expected of her (such as change her first name, among plenty of other things). My dad never cared either way, it was completely his family who cared, so her opinion won out because she cared about it more. I'm pretty sure most of you would agree that you wouldn't change your first name, or expect your wife to change her first name, after marriage, so all I'm saying is just because something's a tradition doesn't necessarily mean you have to blindly follow it if you disagree.

 

[Slade]

My mom has the same last name as my Dad, but she comes from a really traditional culture and refused to do a LOT of the other things that were expected of her (such as change her first name, among plenty of other things). My dad never cared either way, it was completely his family who cared, so her opinion won out because she cared about it more. I'm pretty sure most of you would agree that you wouldn't change your first name, or expect your wife to change her first name, after marriage, so all I'm saying is just because something's a tradition doesn't necessarily mean you have to blindly follow it if you disagree.

 

[Blesbok]

Great post.

Planning on keeping my parent's last name, they're incredible people and have done more for me than I could have ever hoped for. Whoever I end up marrying, I plan to have a nice long talk to them about it, and seeing how he feels. If he can convince me otherwise that makes me happy about the decision, I would then talk to my parents about it, and see where I ended up. But, on the other hand, if I ended up convincing him otherwise, he'd have to have a nice long talk with his parents and seeing how they'd feel. We'd then have to have a talk about what we'd name their kids. However, I could never marry someone who demanded I change their name, like a few of you who have already posted, because that's not the kind of girl I am. I have friends who are just as 'independent' as I am, but their last name doesn't mean much to them, so they're changing it. Kudos to them, because they're making the decision that's right for them. I'm flexible, but I would only be flexible for a guy who's also flexible. Honestly, to each their own, I just think it's ridiculous that some of you on this board think keeping your last name signifies an unhappy marriage that will then lead to divorce.

Coming from the single girl...

 

[secret25]

Coming from the single girl...

HAHA what does that mean? You have to be married to have an opinion on this matter? I think enough married people posting on this board have shared my opinion so that's not even a legitimate argument, even if it made sense.

 

[Narmerguy]

And if I have to hear/see one more tv/radio commercial where a sharp-as-a-tack smarmy sarcastic wife is chastising her idiot-can't-do-anything-right husband I'm going to burst a berry, because it's tacky, frankly offensive, and worse - unoriginal. And if I see one more sitcom with a stupid aging stand-up comic and his "family" where he plays a maritally-castrated and emasculated family man with a pretty, but sassy wife ten times "smarter" than him that has his balls in a jar and holds sex over his head like he's lucky to have it when she deigns he's been "good" and his kids are smart as a whip and they all crap on him all day with this whole "durrrr, a ***** like me's lucky to have my crazy family!" theme I'll just throw my TV off the balcony.

This may be the funniest thing I've ever read on SDN. Seriously, I was dying.

Whatever you do, don't hyphenate. And if for some crazy ass reason, you do hyphenate, don't use both of them on anything but your driver's license. I honestly hate women that have these 42 letter last names because they decided they should hyphenate their last name. If you don't want to take his last name, just keep your own.

I agree. Whichever you do, just pick one and be confident in your decision. Trying to please too many sides is never wise.

And if you were referring to only having independent accounts, I really don't know of anyone who does this after marriage.

Well honestly, what do any of us know about what people do with their bank accounts? If people are willing to keep it separate from their spouse you can believe they're not going to share the details of their arrangements with others.

 

[Excelsius]

This discussion is so subjective that a comedian can do just as good of a job and be just as right. If you like Chris Rock, check out the video, especially his epilogue. It all comes down to what your SO brings to the table. Being independent is great and name change is really not too important. However, the psychology behind it is. If you are going to counter everything your SO wants (including some of the hilarious details Rock goes into) just to prove that you are independent, it is never going to work. So the issue here is not the name change itself, but the psychology behind it. A happy marriage is one where there is compromise. If you don't want to do something that you SO wants, then it is only natural that if something else comes up, you should be the one who compromises. If you can't, then your only option is to get together with a very weak SO who gives in to your every whim and agrees with whatever you say. Some people who value their independence above everything else might have to look into such a relationship, regardless whether the SO is a male or female. That's not really an equal partnership.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2DqRfJgWP8[/YOUTUBE]

 

[scholj]

I'll be a third year in July and will be getting married in my fourth year specifically so I can change my name to my fiance's last name and not have to worry about having my degree say MyOldLastName but go by Dr. MyNewLastName. I had always envisioned myself taking my husband's last name, and that didn't change when I decided to go to med school.

On the other hand, one of the docs I knew from class kept her maiden name for her professional career and went by Dr. HerLastName, but outside of the work realm, she went by her husband's last name.

It guess it just depends on preference.

 

[glycobio]

DrJD and company are right in one regard: SDN users are not a good representation of the general US population. I'm glad people have started to bring up the practical concerns associated with name-changing for women who are seeking professional degrees (or are at some later stage in their training).

In the course of the next few years I will be adding (hopefully) a few "important" papers and a grant or two to my resume in addition to a PhD and MD. At what point will I have become too entrenched as Ms./Dr. Glycobio to take my future husband's name? I suppose you think never...

There's also the matter of pride in one's accomplishments. It's easy for you (I believe it was DrJD once again) to say that my pre-marriage papers aren't important enough to warrant keeping the name I've published under. But you weren't there when I was working 9am-1am in lab every day of the week, and you won't be there when I'm busting my ass in medical/graduate school. Just as your wife taking your name meant something to you, seeing the citation Glycobio, et al. in a journal means something to me. The thought of obliterating the first decade or so of my professional history makes me cringe, even if said obliteration is more symbolic than real.

Although my significant other hasn't let on, I know it's important to him that I take his family's name. And I am considering it, but only because his reasons (which I can't share without completely violating his privacy) are much more substantial than "tradition" and "it makes me feel warm and fuzzy".

 

[QuaerensIntelle]

First of all, let me apologize for just jumping in here without reading every post before me. I am just going to address the original question. I am getting married (MS-1 starting in about a month) in the next 6 months. I am not entirely sure yet what I'm doing, but I am thinking of keeping my last name professionally and making my fiance's name my second middle name casually. He also was willing to make a change to a hyphenated 2 name, but I thought that was more complicated.

There are two reasons why I want to keep my name. One, I always wanted to be Dr. X because my dad is Dr. X (my family is chock full of doctors). It is almost a franchise. Secondly, my name is very uncommon and would have a very high google search standing (which seems helpful for certain commercial ventures), whereas my fiance's is super common-aka "Smith".

I don't think it signifies anything, except my extreme regard and emulation of my father. Also, my fiance will probably stay at home, if we ever have children. *shrug* I guess we are nontraditional, but I couldn't love him more or be more interdependent on him.

 

[herbb]

I think Excelsius summed up nicely how I feel about this issue. Just to add to the discussion...I am a guy. Hypothetically speaking, if I were in love and getting married, I wouldn't hold it against my fiancee if she did not change her name to mine, on the condition that she WOULD be willing to change it if I made it an issue. If she were unwilling to compromise on an issue that was important to me, and that I was willing to compromise on FOR HER, then obviously we would not be equals in the relationship in terms of mutual respect. I don't think I could get married to someone like that.

This discussion is so subjective that a comedian can do just as good of a job and be just as right. If you like Chris Rock, check out the video, especially his epilogue. It all comes down to what your SO brings to the table. Being independent is great and name change is really not too important. However, the psychology behind it is. If you are going to counter everything your SO wants (including some of the hilarious details Rock goes into) just to prove that you are independent, it is never going to work. So the issue here is not the name change itself, but the psychology behind it. A happy marriage is one where there is compromise. If you don't want to do something that you SO wants, then it is only natural that if something else comes up, you should be the one who compromises. If you can't, then your only option is to get together with a very weak SO who gives in to your every whim and agrees with whatever you say. Some people who value their independence above everything else might have to look into such a relationship, regardless whether the SO is a male or female. That's not really an equal partnership.



[YOUTUBE]A2DqRfJgWP8[/YOUTUBE]

 

[psipsina]

I kept my name legally and use his name socially. All of my mail from family comes to "Mrs HisName" but in medschool I'm "StudentDoc MaidenName". For me it was very important to keep my name. I'm an only child and every child of my generation in my family is female. My husbands family is super traditional and just automatically started calling my "Mrs Hisname" and we just let them because it doesn't really matter what my christmas card says and it makes them happy. My husband is so laid back he really doesn't care either way. He has said that if we decide to do kids he'll take my name legally so our kids can have one name instead of a hyphen (which we both hate) because he understands how much my Dad's name means to me. If it had been an important issue with him I would have been flexible about it because his feelings are more important to me than a name.

 

[Corbeaux]

I know that in Japan, a "family unit" is required by law to unify their surnames upon marriage. Mostly, it's the wife that takes the husband's name, but in cases where the wife's family is particularly influential or powerful, it's not uncommon for the husband to be the one to change.

In the other East Asian countries, like China and Korea, Confucian tradition holds that your surname signifies your bloodline, rather than your familial affiliation.

I personally wouldn't change my surname... both because it's not an issue in my birth culture and because I don't think it's really right... marriage doesn't change who you are, and I'd want to ask the guy who wants his wife to change: "well then what about you? are you willing to change the name you've lived with since birth for me?"

A lot of couples do the hyphenation thing for that very reason, but it's always seemed like too much trouble to go through just to try to make things look "equal" or "fair." And it's not really a feminist thing to do either: when it comes down to it, you're choosing between your husband's name and your father's name.

Nah. It ain't worth the trouble. Just stick with your birth name, provided it's not too touchy a point w/ your hubby-to-be.

mazel tov.

 

[Corbeaux]

Originally Posted by Genesis 2:24
Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

If that's so, I wonder if the man shouldn't be the one to take his wife's name, if he's the one "holding fast to his wife".

Also, I'm thinking it would be right to name children after their mother? After all, women still bear the brunt of childrearing even today, no matter how equal the sexes claim to have become. And the mother actually contributes more genetic material to offspring than the father (mitochondrial DNA; a greater proportion of the chromosomal DNA in the case of a male child).

 

[JeffLebowski]

I kept my name legally and use his name socially. All of my mail from family comes to "Mrs HisName" but in medschool I'm "StudentDoc MaidenName". For me it was very important to keep my name. I'm an only child and every child of my generation in my family is female. My husbands family is super traditional and just automatically started calling my "Mrs Hisname" and we just let them because it doesn't really matter what my christmas card says and it makes them happy. My husband is so laid back he really doesn't care either way. He has said that if we decide to do kids he'll take my name legally so our kids can have one name instead of a hyphen (which we both hate) because he understands how much my Dad's name means to me. If it had been an important issue with him I would have been flexible about it because his feelings are more important to me than a name.

...eh.

 

[Corbeaux]

The Bible traces the lineage of Jesus through Joseph, even though he shared none of Joseph's DNA. Like I said, we have our reasons, you don't have to agree. And that is just one verse on the topic of marriage, the Bible calls women to "submit" to their husbands, and husbands to die for their wives. It's a two way street, we both serve each other and it works wonderfully. I thought I'd mention that, since your post seemed defensive.

It's not the name-changing itself that bothers me (though I personally wouldn't do it if possible, nor would I ask it of my partner) but the fact that it's automatically the woman who's expected to change her surname (yeah, and I realize not everyone thinks that, but a great many still do: just look at the rest of this thread). If the guy changes to his wife's name, he either gets praise or raised eyebrows.

Of course, I do realize that many women are just fine with the whole name-change business. They can do it if they want... but only if they want (or at least, don't object to it). I just don't think it should be expected of the wife to take on this highly visible symbol of her "human bondage" while the husband isn't expected to do anything. It's the sense of obligation, based on a double-standard, that I object to.

If the wife wants to keep her identity intact through her name, then I think the truly loving husband should respect that. I don't think it can be grounds for resentment, really... If it matters so much to him that they share names, then it would be fair to hyphenate (though I always thought that system to be unwieldy, as well as just a little pretentious-seeming). Or he should seriously consider taking her name. If he is going to request her to change for him, then I think he should be willing to do the same for her.

Did I come off as too aggressive? I wasn't meaning to bash the Bible, but if that's what you took away from it, I apologize. (I wouldn't have expected Biblical geneology to take genetics into account anyway, that was just for fun... though, I do think my theory holds weight from a biological standpoint)

 

[Blesbok]

HAHA what does that mean? You have to be married to have an opinion on this matter? I think enough married people posting on this board have shared my opinion so that's not even a legitimate argument, even if it made sense.

It was a joke, summers, donna.

 

[emily487]

Still not sure, actually. I'm not a med school student now, but in the future. I might do what my mom did (she and my dad are both doctors): she kept her maiden name, legally, so there wouldn't be two "Dr. Dad'sName" at the hospital where they worked. But in the community she goes by either last name really, or both.

 

[Raryn]

I'm not getting married anytime soon, but when I do, it doesn't matter to me whether my future wife will take my name or keep her own. (Funnily enough, my last name hasn't actually had any women with it in generations. My mother and grandmother kept their maiden names, my father/grandfather were only children).

Having a mother with a different last name than me actually did lead to some confusion a few times when I was growing up, but I can only think of one time it (almost) led to any major inconvenience. (We were going on a trip to Mexico, almost missed the flight b/c my parents had to submit a notarized statement that my mother wasn't some strange woman my dad was trying to kidnap the 8-year-old me with.) If I were to marry someone in academia, its totally understandable if she wanted to keep her own name.

The one thing I will NOT be happy with is hyphenating. I think its utterly stupid, unwieldy, and would lead to ridiculous results in a couple generations. Making up a totally new name seems silly as well, but not as ridiculous as hyphenating.

Kid-wise, I'd want them to have my name, though if my wife felt extremely strongly, I'd be open to discuss a compromise. I doubt it would be an issue though, since most of the women I encounter are at least that traditional. Everyone having different last names would just be confusing

 

[boaz]

I've got to change my first name. 99% of people not in my culture can't pronounce it.

 

[red10]

i'll be keeping my maiden name on my degrees and probably in my practice (his dad is already Dr. HisLastName) but in my social life I want to have his last name.
Like mail can still be addressed to Mr. and Mrs. (or Dr.s) HisLastName and my children's friends can refer to me as Mrs.HisLastName but if they make an appointment with me at the hospital, it'll be Dr.MyLastName

 

[7starmantis]

i'll be keeping my maiden name on my degrees and probably in my practice (his dad is already Dr. HisLastName) but in my social life I want to have his last name.
Like mail can still be addressed to Mr. and Mrs. (or Dr.s) HisLastName and my children's friends can refer to me as Mrs.HisLastName but if they make an appointment with me at the hospital, it'll be Dr.MyLastName

I've seen this response quite a bit. It seems more confusing to me than having two Dr. HisLastName (you and his father) in my opinion. Of course thats assuming that is the only reason for keeping your name.

 

[loveboatdoc]

I go by Dr Maiden Name, for work.

But, socially folks call me Mrs. Hubby's last name, which is fine. My kids' friends do the same.

Here's a twist: I used to tease one of the male residents by calling him Dr. (inside joke). He liked it so much better than his real name, he made the legal change! The new name revolved around a topic he spoke of often, something he was proud of having done in his past. PS: I also named his pet.

 

[sunset823]

All my married friends (and there's getting to be more of them as I'm getting older) have kept their maiden names, but then again, they got married during med school and are still there, I don't know if they'll change it after getting into a residency, although I doubt it. As far as I know, they still use their 'maiden' names in social circles too, but then again, they don't have kids yet. I've also seen Maiden-Married (hyphenated).

On the off chance I get married, there's no way I'm changing my name. That's part of the prenup. lol.

 

[justduckncover]

My girlfriend and I have spoken about this and both of us feel strongly about our names being, well, our own names. We're both completely fine with this and are fine with her keeping her last name once we get married, sometime in the distant future

The only issue we have is with future kids. We both don't want the kids to identify with only one parent, per se, but hyphenating feels particularly stupid with our names (Kim-Lee or Lee-Kim). It just feels... Extremely asian? Hahaha.

Just sucks - there's no obvious even ground that doesn't seem ridiculously complex or convoluted.

 

[JimmyChitwood]

I was not aware that women had the power to choose their last name...what's next? voting rights, too?