Mayo accepted everyone. What now?

[hailbate]

I seriously question the emotional development/ability to handle disappointment in premeds. There’s something wrong with either the process or the way kids are being brought up. Maybe both. Seriously, talks of lawsuits over an honest mistake?

This is such boomer mentality, I can't even...

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[Angus Avagadro]

It's not like the worst case scenario is even that unreasonable. After someone rescinded their acceptance, what if the school they rescinded at let someone else off the waitlist? What if they now don't have enough seats to let them back in? What if a student is able to get one acceptance back, but not another one that offered greater financial aid? It's really ignorant to think they can just slap a band-aid on it with a simple phone call and that everyone just needs to trust them & get over it.

Most schools are allowed to accept a few more students than they are approved to take to allow for attrition. There is probably enough wiggle room to accommodate those from Mayo who have nowhere to go. Realistically, most med schools may only have 1 or 2 students in this position at the most.
As far as punishing Mayo for being inept, if they are following AMCAS guidelines and their own policies, I dont think they have much to worry about regarding a self admitted mistake. It's not a case of direct corruption or ignoring existing policies.

 

[deleted947265]

I seriously question the emotional development/ability to handle disappointment in premeds. There’s something wrong with either the process or the way kids are being brought up. Maybe both. Seriously, talks of lawsuits over an honest mistake?

Most cases of medical malpractice are an honest mistake. Does that mean doctors shouldn't have to pay out when they cause harm to people? If applying to medical school and getting in wasn't such a cluster screw it wouldn't be as big of a deal. It costs thousands of dollars to apply, buy a suit, schedule flights, take time off of work, spend 10K on prerequisite courses that the MCAT content already covers but not online or at a community college, volunteer five billion hours, do research, also MCAT scores expire for some reason.. Its all a bit much. Things have gotten way too competitive and emotions are going to run high, when emotions run high... then this kind of stuff happens... lawyers can get involved.

 

[readmypostsMD]

I seriously question the emotional development/ability to handle disappointment in premeds. There’s something wrong with either the process or the way kids are being brought up. Maybe both. Seriously, talks of lawsuits over an honest mistake?

Replace “premeds” with “a biased sampling of premeds on SDN” and then your statement makes sense

 

[Zen Arcade]

I think it's a generational thing with so many being taught that whenever adversity arises, adopt a victims mentality. You cant have any ownership in the adversity. Refuse to be a victim and you wont be one.

Oh this is definitely NOT a generational thing. We all have met folks from the older generation who complain and blame others about minuscule things. I worked as a CNA in a nursing home and I could not count the number of times I was blamed by residents (a select few thankfully) for situations that were completely out of my control. How did I respond? With empathy, because I realized that if I was in their situation I would feel the same way too. Being isolated everyday and losing your independence can affect people in very different ways and I needed to respond with kindness and realize that they kind of actually are the victim (even if I wasn't necessarily the one who caused them pain). Now I look at this situation... and being an applicant myself I seriously feel for the applicants who this happened to. Its insanely stressful waiting 9+ months after an interview to hear a decision. You have no control over the outcome after the interview and all you can do is wait. Its easy to look at applicants from the sidelines and say 'you just have to wait', but to actually go through it is a completely different thing. I get it, mistakes happen. I don't know much about Mayo's response to the situation, but I seriously hope they have the decency to show empathy to the applicants. Its simply showing other people dignity, respect, and realizing that even if you may not fully understand their struggles you can at least care about their well-being.

 

[TwoHighways]

Replace “premeds” with “a biased sampling of premeds on SDN” and then your statement makes sense

True.
Building on my earlier thoughts, I can’t help but think about the level of instant gratification that our increasingly digitalized world brings. It blows my mind that within three hours or so of getting the acceptance email followed by the “it was a mistake” email, students were giving up their other acceptances, cancelling interviews, and withdrawing applications.

I guess part of it is the process as well. We have these kids so wrapped up in being the perfect premed that their entire identity is defined by if they are able to get into a top medical school to the detriment of their own personal development in other areas. Maybe a prerequisite going forward should be a couple of years of real life experience outside of academia. How on earth are these kids going to be able to relate to their patients on a personal level when all they know is striving for the highest level of academic achievement.

 

[deleted688779]

True.
Building on my earlier thoughts, I can’t help but think about the level of instant gratification that our increasingly digitalized world brings. It blows my mind that within three hours or so of getting the acceptance email followed by the “it was a mistake” email, students were giving up their other acceptances, cancelling interviews, and withdrawing applications.

I guess part of it is the process as well. We have these kids so wrapped up in being the perfect premed that their entire identity is wrapped up into getting in a top medical school to the detriment of their own personal development in other areas. Maybe a prerequisite going forward should be a couple of years of real life experience outside of academia. How on earth are these kids going to be able to relate to their patients on a personal level when all they know is striving for the highest level of academic achievement.

Bruh

 

[deleted976595]

Not actually the worst case. Imagine that Mayo were to be at fault by the court. What would be the remedy be? If the plaintiff had A) significantly lower academics than a typical Mayo matriculant and/or B) no acceptance to another school, Mayo would argue that plaintiff is not qualified to be in their class. And I agree this will not go to court though I am sure lawsuits will be filed and most thrown out in summary judgement

I think the fake acceptance email was only sent to students who had already interviewed, so in our fantasy lawsuit the argument that they weren't qualified to attend wouldn't hold up very well in my opinion. Not that it matters since I don't think a lawsuit would be successful for a variety of other reasons.

 

[readmypostsMD]

Bruh

Ah sah bruh

 

[deleted1011020]

I seriously question the emotional development/ability to handle disappointment in premeds. There’s something wrong with either the process or the way kids are being brought up. Maybe both. Seriously, talks of lawsuits over an honest mistake?

I mean... have you seen the cost of applying to medical school? Can you really blame our generation for losing their collective minds when that amount of money is on the line?

 

[deleted957830]

This is such boomer mentality, I can't even...

He/she isn't wrong.

People at my school have attempted to get people fired if they get yelled at or receive a bad grade. It's a free for all for who can play the violin the loudest/best. It's never "me", it's racism, discrimination, sexism, you name it. I distinctly remember a classmate always walking in late (>30 min) to a required class and one day the physician had finally had enough and called out the student, he/she tried to have him/her fired, saying that they were being targeted due to their skin color. I wish this was the only example I could give, but sadly, there are several.

As an older student, I think people should have to work a couple years before going to medical school, just like those applying for a MBA. The emotional maturity, at large, is just not there. Moreover, our culture is promoting the impossible ideology that feelings should never be hurt and people should never be offended. The creeds of "be the bigger person" and "let it go" have been flushed down the toilet. In medicine, a fact is that you learn by making mistakes and people catching those mistakes, making sure you never repeat them again. Niceties aren't always the best way of doing that. I'm in no way advocating the harsh treatment of students, but medicine is not a forgiving venture. Mistakes can be deadly. Most younger students in my class want to do it their way, on their terms...any adversity along the way and they lose their handle on reality.

 

[deleted962973]

He/she isn't wrong.

People at my school have attempted to get people fired if they get yelled at or receive a bad grade. It's a free for all for who can play the violin the loudest/best. It's never "me", it's racism, discrimination, sexism, you name it. I distinctly remember a classmate always walking in late (>30 min) to a required class and one day the physician had finally had enough and called out the student, he/she tried to have him/her fired, saying that they were being targeted due to their skin color. I wish this was the only example I could give, but sadly, there are several.

As an older student, I think people should have to work a couple years before going to medical school, just like those applying for a MBA. The emotional maturity, at large, is just not there. Moreover, our culture is promoting the impossible ideology that feelings should never be hurt and people should never be offended. The creeds of "be the bigger person" and "let it go" have been flushed down the toilet. In medicine, a fact is that you learn by making mistakes and people catching those mistakes, making sure you never repeat them again. Niceties aren't always the best way of doing that. I'm in no way advocating the harsh treatment of students, but medicine is not a forgiving venture. Mistakes can be deadly. Most younger students in my class want to do it their way, on their terms...any adversity along the way and they lose their handle on reality.

Only rich people can afford to delay having a career for 2-5 years to work a minimum wage gap year job, which is what most people can expect with a biology degree from a non-T20 undergrad. I have no idea why people think the training pathway to become a doctor needs to become even longer. We already devote 15 years of our lives to this.

On a side note, I dont know why so many nontrads often seem to display such a superiority complex over people who came into med school straight out of undergrad. One pathway isn’t better than the other. People dont get accepted to med school unless they’re ready for it, and that includes your 22-year-old classmates.

 

[deleted957830]

Only rich people can afford to delay having a career for 2-5 years to work a minimum wage gap year job, which is what most people can expect with a biology degree. I have no idea why people think the training pathway to become a doctor needs to become even longer. We already sacrifice 15 years of our lives for this.

On a side note, I dont know why so many nontrads often display such a superiority complex over people who came into med school straight out of undergrad. One pathway isn’t better than the other. People dont get accepted to med school unless they’re ready for it, and that includes your 22-year-old classmates.

I grew up receiving free lunch and in a one person household, I didn't start until my mid 30's. Plus, not all premeds receive biology degrees. MBA's require it, and not every single MBA student is rich.

And I have no superiority complex. There are 22 year olds just as mature or even more mature than myself. But by a large majority, the younger people in my class are immature and volatile, especially in comparison to older students.

And I disagree with your statement that people don't get accepted unless they are ready. 5 people in my class didn't take step 1 this year because they couldn't pass an NBME. All of them were <25. 2 people also failed out of my class M1 year (both under 25). Not saying this is the norm for traditional students, just trying to say that just because people are there, doesn't mean they should be there. Admissions officers are not perfect.

I do agree that the pathway is too long, but I don't think 1-2 years off to work would be the end of the world. Even working while in undergrad would be a suitable replacement. Traditional students in my class often say the same thing, as they notice the difference in maturity level.

 

[gyngyn]

Let us remember to maintain civility, especially when discussing an inherently fraught situation.

 

[deleted962973]

I grew up receiving free lunch and in a one person household, I didn't start until my mid 30's. Plus, not all premeds receive biology degrees. MBA's require it, and not every single MBA student is rich.

And I have no superiority complex. There are 22 year olds just as mature or even more mature than myself. But by a large majority, the younger people in my class are immature and volatile, especially in comparison to older students.

And I disagree with your statement that people don't get accepted unless they are ready. 5 people in my class didn't take step 1 this year because they couldn't pass an NBME. All of them were <25. 2 people also failed out of my class M1 year (both under 25). Not saying this is the norm for traditional students, just trying to say that just because people are there, doesn't mean they should be there. Admissions officers are not perfect.

I do agree that the pathway is too long, but I don't think 1-2 years off to work would be the end of the world. Even working while in undergrad would be a suitable replacement. Traditional students in my class often say the same thing, as they notice the difference in maturity level.

The dropout rate at the majority of MD programs is stunningly low (usually <5%) so I think it is fair to say that if you get into an MD, you’re ready for med school. I’m less familiar with DO, so I won’t comment there.

Working while in undergrad may be possible, but let’s remember that everyone has different responsibilities. For some people, maintaining their grades, extracurriculars, and family life may be a full plate, while others would be enriched by holding an actual job. My point is that there’s no one right way to be a medical student or to be ready for medical school, and I don’t think it’s fair to make blanket statements that students who come out of undergrad are generally too emotionally immature to be doctors. The vast majority of practicing doctors today matriculated right after graduating, and for the most part, they’re all competent physicians.

 

[deleted957830]

The dropout rate at the majority of MD programs is stunningly low (usually <5%), so I think it is fair to say that if you get into an MD, you’re ready for med school. I’m less familiar with DO, so I won’t comment there.

I go to a mid tier MD and our step 1 average was ~240 for my year.

Schools are sneaky. Fail out? "Want to restart the next year?". Can't pass an NBME to get the green light to take step 1? "Wanna do a 'research' year?" That's why it's so low. My former bridesmaid goes to a T10 and she tells me stories that would drop your jaw about people failing. Schools do whatever they can to look good.

 

[Zen Arcade]

And I have no superiority complex. There are 22 year olds just as mature or even more mature than myself. But by a large majority, the younger people in my class are immature and volatile, especially in comparison to older students.

n=1, but those that say this usually consider the loud minority to be the 'large majority'. The truth is that age has less to do with this than overall life experience. Throw a first-gen student with no parental and/or financial support into undergrad and they learn how to be responsible pretty fast (or they sink and drop out). A lot of young students who make it to med school come from rich families with the privilege of never having to hold a real job in their life. You wont get fired for arriving to a volunteer shift late. I agree that students should have more real job experience before applying to med school because it instills a sense of personal responsibility and the ability to mature. But age doesn't exactly correlate well with maturity - I know plenty of people who are older that are beyond immature.

 

[deleted957830]

n=1, but those that say this usually consider the loud minority to be the 'large majority'. The truth is that age has less to do with this than overall life experience. Throw a first-gen student with no parental and/or financial support into undergrad and they learn how to be responsible pretty fast (or they sink and drop out).

Great point and I agree! That's what I was pointing at when I said there are 22 year olds more mature than me. I just didn't explain it as well or as in depth as you. But well said.

 

[TwoHighways]

I grew up receiving free lunch and in a one person household, I didn't start until my mid 30's. Plus, not all premeds receive biology degrees.

And I have no superiority complex. There are 22 year olds just as mature or even more mature than myself. But by a large majority, the younger people in my class are immature and volatile, especially in comparison to older students.

And I disagree with your statement that people don't get accepted unless they are ready. 5 people in my class didn't take step 1 this year because they couldn't pass an NBME. All of them were <25. 2 people also failed out of my class M1 year (both under 25). Not saying this is the norm for traditional students, just trying to say that just because people are there, doesn't mean they should be there. Admissions officers are not perfect.

I do agree that the pathway is too long, but I don't think 1-2 years off to work would be the end of the world. Even working while in undergrad would be a suitable replacement. Traditional students in my class often say the same thing, as they notice the difference in maturity level.

I don’t think there was a need for you to even disclose your background. The sheer petulance on display in the Mayo thread is proof of concept.

 

[deleted957830]

I don’t think there was a need for you to even disclose your background. The sheer petulance on display in the Mayo thread is proof of concept.

Now I'm intrigued...gonna go take a look.

 

[Stbernard]

Come on guys. While I will agree that things have gotten a little extreme, I think believing for a few hours that you got into Mayo Clinic (whether it's your dream program or you only acceptance) only to find out that it was fake would make anyone upset. This isn't a generational thing, anyone would be devastated. Having a safe place to vent without being belittled is therapeutic.

 

[deleted957830]

Come on guys. While I will agree that things have gotten a little extreme, I think believing for a few hours that you got into Mayo Clinic (whether it's your dream program or you only acceptance) only to find out that it was fake would make anyone upset. This isn't a generational thing, anyone would be devastated. Having a safe place to vent without being belittled is therapeutic.

Whoever is responsible for sending out those emails, I just imagine their desk being moved to a place akin to Milton's in Office Space, but deep below the permafrost of Rochester MN.

 

[82Scout]

Not actually the worst case. Imagine that Mayo were to be at fault by the court. What would be the remedy be? If the plaintiff had A) significantly lower academics than a typical Mayo matriculant and/or B) no acceptance to another school, Mayo would argue that plaintiff is not qualified to be in their class. And I agree this will not go to court though I am sure lawsuits will be filed and most thrown out in summary judgement

I consulted a practicing attorney (my fiancé) she would tend to agree with you. Good luck proving damages. Applicants would also have had to try to mitigate damages immediately and prove it couldn’t be mitigated (calling schools back and explaining). She agrees it would be thrown out in summary.

 

[vomitcom]

A technical glitch is not a big deal. Not promptly emailing owning up to the mistake is bad. But what is by far worse is how they're recruiting their students to clean up their mess for them! What an inappropriate way to treat your own students -- have them clean up and try to save face for an administrative **** up.

 

[Destalchemy]

I'm a premed in gen chem and I overhear the girl in front of me who browses Instagram all class say "our chem lab professor said the labs would be super easy and yet I'm getting a 54. ****ing bull**** liar I'm going to blah blah blah blah".

The labs are super easy... He gives us a quarter of the answers straight up sometimes and often tells you what you got wrong so you can fix it. Hes also a jokester and super nice. I'm only mid 20s but yeah some of these kids are never at fault.

That said, I completely agree that its bull**** defending the medical schools with what students have to go through and the standards they are upheld to.

 

[acciobutterbeer]

A technical glitch is not a big deal. Not promptly emailing owning up to the mistake is bad. But what is by far worse is how they're recruiting their students to clean up their mess for them! What an inappropriate way to treat your own students -- have them clean up and try to save face for an administrative **** up.

If students are posting about their good experience at Mayo, it’s because they actually feel that way. No one has asked us to post.

 

[TheDappGoesWild]

If students are posting about their good experience at Mayo, it’s because they actually feel that way. No one has asked us to post.

How about the phones calls? I still can't fathom an administration getting their students to clean up their mess the night before a final exam... Doesn't sound like a supportive environment to me.

 

[acciobutterbeer]

How about the phones calls? I still can't fathom an administration getting their students to clean up their mess the night before a final exam... Doesn't sound like a supportive environment to me.

I wasn’t asked to make any phone calls nor heard that from my classmates.

 

[emergentmd]

Maybe end up in a class action lawsuit, pay some decent amount that goes mostly to the lawyers and little to the pre med students.

No way would a med student have the money or time to go through this. Lawyers are expensive and will expect a 5 figure retainer.

Even if you turned down 10 spots b/c Mayo was your top choice and could not get any spots back. What are you going to do? Put your med school career on hold for 2+ yrs fighting a lawsuit? of course you are not.

Even if you went the lawsuit route, I assume you will reapply the next cycle and get into another school. Does your lawsuit have less validity b/c harm is greatly reduced?

Even if you sued and in 3 yrs won your case, could mayo just admit you and thus greatly reduce you harm?

It seems like any path is fraught with alot of uncertainty, alot of cost, and very little good outcome.

If it was me, and I was stuck in this position, I would be pleasant and hopefully Mayo would marticulate me next yr as I am sure every student have good credentials even getting an interview.

 

[Goro]

This explains everything.

 

[Goro]

Most cases of medical malpractice are an honest mistake. Does that mean doctors shouldn't have to pay out when they cause harm to people? If applying to medical school and getting in wasn't such a cluster screw it wouldn't be as big of a deal. It costs thousands of dollars to apply, buy a suit, schedule flights, take time off of work, spend 10K on prerequisite courses that the MCAT content already covers but not online or at a community college, volunteer five billion hours, do research, also MCAT scores expire for some reason.. Its all a bit much. Things have gotten way too competitive and emotions are going to run high, when emotions run high... then this kind of stuff happens... lawyers can get involved.

Most malpractice cases are lost by plaintiffs, and in a number of states, there are caps on damages. Try to avoid false equivalence arguments as well.

 

[Goro]

On a side note, I dont know why so many nontrads often seem to display such a superiority complex over people who came into med school straight out of undergrad. One pathway isn’t better than the other. People dont get accepted to med school unless they’re ready for it, and that includes your 22-year-old classmates.

Because, frankly, they're more mature and have real life experience.

What we in the med school world (and residency as well) are finding is that students have a poor work ethic. That is to say, by being professional students all their lives, they have no concept of the responsibility of showing up on time, and staying until the job is done.

Schools are sneaky. Fail out? "Want to restart the next year?". Can't pass an NBME to get the green light to take step 1? "Wanna do a 'research' year?" That's why it's so low. My former bridesmaid goes to a T10 and she tells me stories that would drop your jaw about people failing. Schools do whatever they can to look good.

It's not about looking good. It's about helping people become doctors. The #1 reason we lose students is due to health issues. It's NOT because they can't handle med school. #2 reason is outside life events clobber them.

 

[deleted962973]

Because, frankly, they're more mature and have real life experience.

What we in the med school world (and residency as well) are finding is that students have a poor work ethic. That is to say, by being professional students all their lives, they have no concept of the responsibility of showing up on time, and staying until the job is done.

Schools are sneaky. Fail out? "Want to restart the next year?". Can't pass an NBME to get the green light to take step 1? "Wanna do a 'research' year?" That's why it's so low. My former bridesmaid goes to a T10 and she tells me stories that would drop your jaw about people failing. Schools do whatever they can to look good.

It's not about looking good. It's about helping people become doctors. The #1 reason we lose students is due to health issues. It's NOT because they can't handle med school. #2 reason is outside life events clobber them.

I’ve been hearing this about the next generation for the past 15 years, and frankly, the sky hasn’t fallen yet. People have been complaining about the work ethic of “kids today” since Aristotle’s time. Getting into medical school today requires more dedication to the career than it has at any point in the past. That’s why the median age of matriculation keeps going up, and why even high schoolers are panicking about how to start getting involved in research. After a point, it becomes ridiculous. Even traditional applicants who don’t take years off have to do quite a lot to prove that they’re committed to being doctors.

And as other people have said, life experience has little to do with age and everything to do with... having life experience. There are probably 30-year-old Instagram models who have never worked a day in their lives, while some 18-year-olds are already head of household and provide for their whole family. The point of having such a lengthy and detailed application process is to discern on an individual basis whether an applicant has the life experiences necessary to prepare them for medical school.

 

[Goro]

I’ve been hearing this about the next generation for the past 15 years, and frankly, the sky hasn’t fallen yet. People have been complaining about the work ethic of “kids today” since Aristotle’s time. Spare me the dramatics. Getting into medical school today requires more dedication to the career than it has at any point in the past.

And as other people have said, life experience has little to do with age and everything to do with... life experience. There are probably 30-year-old Instagram models who have never worked a day in their lives, while some 18-year-olds are already head of household and provide for their whole family. The point of having such a lengthy and detailed application process is to discern whether an applicant has the life experiences necessary to prepare them for medical school.

Nice try, Stan, your prejudices are belied by real world experiences that we faculty see firsthand. Like students getting kicked off rotations.

 

[deleted962973]

Nice try, Stan, your prejudices are belied by real world experiences that we faculty see firsthand. Like students getting kicked off rotations firsthand.

Does this happen to a greater extent than in the past? I feel like what a lot of people are conflating is the fact that many residents today don’t agree with the idea of working 110 hour weeks, and want some semblance of work-life balance so that they aren’t burned out by the age of 35. I don’t think that equates to laziness.

In reality, for both med school admissions and residency, the standards do keep going up in terms of the amount of work students have to put in to get to the same place. Step 1 went P/F in part because of the never ending increase in scores, especially for competitive specialities. The number of programs people have to apply to in order to get accepted/match similarly keeps increasing. and the ERAS profiles of medical students in terms of research production and volunteer experiences keeps expanding. Those statistics don’t lie. So I don’t see how it’s possible students can simultaneously have to do more in order to get accepted to med school or match a competitive field and also be lazier than doctors from previous generations.

 

[Goro]

Yes, it has been a growing phenomenon over the past few years. And it's not merely at the med school level. PDs have been seeing it as well. People ask for vacation after only two days on the job....leaving at 5pm, no matter how much work is still left for them

 

[DokterMom]

I don’t think there was a need for you to even disclose your background. The sheer petulance on display in the Mayo thread is proof of concept.

One other important note is that most of those volatile comments were written within hours of learning what would be, for many, the most devastating news of their young lives to date. Understandably so, since acceptance into a school like Mayo has probably been a longstanding dream towards which most had worked diligently and sacrificed much for a substantial fraction of their lives...

Life is long and time will blunt this pain -- but it will take time. Having endured something similar many years ago, I'd call it a death of sorts. The pain lessens, but may never fully go away...

 

[deleted1011020]

Yes, it has been a growing phenomenon over the past few years. And it's not merely at the med school level. PDs have been seeing it as well. People ask for vacation after only two days on the job....leaving at 5pm, no matter how much work is still left for them

Couldn't this jeopardize a residents standing in a program? Like getting written up then eventually getting the boot from the program?

Like most jobs I've had leaving early is a no-go and will result in you being blacklisted from a clinical site.

 

[mwsapphire]

Couldn't this jeopardize a residents standing in a program? Like getting written up then eventually getting the boot from the program?

Like most jobs I've had leaving early is a no-go and will result in you being blacklisted from a clinical site.

Even if you have a legit reason and it wont happen again or something? What if you have a child?

 

[deleted1011020]

Even if you have a legit reason and it wont happen again or something? What if you have a child?

I mean if its an emergency etc thats fine but since my job is so high volume, high acuity, we all depend on one another to deliver and have high work ethic.

Having a child usually means the responsible thing to do is have care arranged.

 

[Goro]

Couldn't this jeopardize a residents standing in a program? Like getting written up then eventually getting the boot from the program?

Like most jobs I've had leaving early is a no-go and will result in you being blacklisted from a clinical site.

They seem to shape up after they get warnings.

 

[Destalchemy]

I’ve been hearing this about the next generation for the past 15 years, and frankly, the sky hasn’t fallen yet. People have been complaining about the work ethic of “kids today” since Aristotle’s time. Getting into medical school today requires more dedication to the career than it has at any point in the past. That’s why the median age of matriculation keeps going up, and why even high schoolers are panicking about how to start getting involved in research. After a point, it becomes ridiculous. Even traditional applicants who don’t take years off have to do quite a lot to prove that they’re committed to being doctors.

And as other people have said, life experience has little to do with age and everything to do with... having life experience. There are probably 30-year-old Instagram models who have never worked a day in their lives, while some 18-year-olds are already head of household and provide for their whole family. The point of having such a lengthy and detailed application process is to discern on an individual basis whether an applicant has the life experiences necessary to prepare them for medical school.

There are two main points I'd like to express. 1) Comparing a 30 year old Instagram influencer drug addict to an 18 year old head of household is asinine. The 30 year old matriculant and the 22 year old matriculant are both capable of getting into med school, and by your own admission, hard working.
2) Just because the 22 year old holds a baseline level of maturity required for graduate schooling does not mean they are fully matured...the truly mature never stops maturing and keeps learning well into their 50s and beyond. The brain isnt even done growing at 22. To suggest a 30 year old matriculant with prior real world career experience does not have more maturity than a 22 year old matirculant just proves you do not have the perspective to recognize the difference because you are too young/inexperienced to tell.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Applying the law of product liability would be a difficult to make as would any case concerning a direct or implied contractual obligation. . There is no evidence that this was intentional on the part of school for this error, nor is it likely to show any widespread negligence that an error like this should have been reasonably expected. Since the main product/service of the medical school is to provide education, the withdrawing of the initial agreement to offer the opportunity does not a) show any liability due to the impact of the product/service (ie education had not begun) and b) does not, again, have a actual direct cost to the withdrawal. That is, no monies already spent, with the exception of application fee and travel costs for interview, have been spent.

Now as to the question that the plaintiff lost other opportunities and made decisions based on information sent in error, getting damages on say lost future earnings would be difficult. The contractual analogy would be buying a house or any real property. While the seller and buyer may make an initial agreement, it usually takes weeks for an actual contract, filled with conditions and exceptions, to be signed and weeks more to be executed. If the seller reneges, the potential buyer cannot, for example, sue based on what a projected future resale value on this house. Likewise, an applicant who has made decisions based on this communication error cannot sue based on what they would have made as a physician.

This would even be an more difficult argument to make for two additional reasons. First, this isnt some uneducated consumer being guided by a "boiler-plate" agreement. It is a highly educated, intelligent applicant who would have been expected to understand the terms and conditions of applying to any individual medical school. They would have completed out primary and multiple secondary applications, and with the level of competency that would be expected from an applicant to medical school, it is a reasonable expectation that they knew or should have known the terms and conditions of doing so. The second reason this would be difficult is that a medical school is not trying to make a profit but has a mission to serve the public good by training prospective physicians, a mission that deals with life and death. This would require that any alleged negligence, product liability, or failure to fulfill a contract rises to the level of such an egregious act as deserving a legal remedy.

Now, as I said in my first post, can an applicant sue for pain and suffering, thus looking for either damages on lost future earnings, psychological pain, and/or punitive damages. Well they can certainly try. However, if they were to reapply and get accepted elsewhere over the 3-5 years it may take to for this action come to trial, it would severely weaken any argument they have.

Lastly, over shadowing all this, is whatever state action that is brought has a path for federal review. This is because all medical schools are accredited by LCME, which is appointed effectively as the agent for the HHS to oversee allopathic medical schools for the purposes of accreditation. This would include their admission policy, their process to do so, and above all, their mission. Again, that very high bar to show such an egregious action would be hard to reach.

Thank you for letting you know you went to law school. One does not simply have to go to law school, but actually earn a degree and pass the bar. Or perhaps they need to sue under product liability showing fault in their service to produce a competently educated attorney

Pass two bar exams and get back to me. You have no idea what you're talking about. This post of yours is pure gobbledygook. My reference to products liability law had to do with the power or lack thereof of Mayo's disclaimer.

The legal argument that Mayo's on again off again acceptees may plead rests on the principle of promissory estoppel. Here's the definition:

What Is Promissory Estoppel?

Promissory estoppel is the legal principle that a promise is enforceable by law, even if made without formal consideration when a promisor has made a promise to a promisee who then relies on that promise to his subsequent detriment. Promissory estoppel is intended to stop the promisor from arguing that an underlying promise should not be legally upheld or enforced. The doctrine of promissory estoppel is part of the law in the United States and other countries, although the precise legal requirements for promissory estoppel vary not only between countries but also between different jurisdictions, such as states, within the same country.

Understanding Promissory Estoppel

Promissory estoppel serves to enable an injured party to recover on a promise. There are common legally-required elements for a person to make a claim for promissory estoppel: a promisor, a promisee, and a detriment that the promisee has suffered. An additional requirement is that the person making the claim — the promisee — must have reasonably relied on the promise. In other words, the promise was one that a reasonable person would ordinarily rely on.


Another requirement further qualifies the required detriment component; the promisee must have suffered an actual substantial detriment in the form of an economic loss that results from the promisor failing to deliver on his or her promise. Finally, promissory estoppel is usually only granted if a court determines that enforcing the promise is essentially the only means by which injustice to the promisee can be rectified.

Example of Promissory Estoppel

An example of promissory estoppel might be applied in a case where an employer makes an oral promise to an employee to pay the employee a specified monthly or annual amount of money throughout the full duration of the employee's retirement. If the employee then subsequently retires based on a reliance on the employer's promise, the employer could be legally estopped from not delivering on his promise to make the specified retirement payments.

Promissory Estoppel as a Part of Contract Law

Contract law generally requires that a person receive consideration for making a promise or agreement. Legal consideration is a valuable asset that is exchanged between two parties to a contract at the time of a promise or agreement. Ordinarily, some form of consideration, either an exchange of money or a promise to refrain from some action, is required for a contract to be legally enforceable. However, in attempting to ensure justice or fairness, a court may enforce a promise even in the absence of any consideration, provided that the promise was reasonably relied on and that reliance on the promise resulted in a detriment to the promisee.

 

[deleted859689]

Pass two bar exams and get back to me. You have no idea what you're talking about. This post of yours is pure gobbledygook. My reference to products liability law had to do with the power or lack thereof of Mayo's disclaimer.

The legal argument that Mayo's on again off again acceptees may plead rests on the principle of promissory estoppel. Here's the definition:

What Is Promissory Estoppel?

Promissory estoppel is the legal principle that a promise is enforceable by law, even if made without formal consideration when a promisor has made a promise to a promisee who then relies on that promise to his subsequent detriment. Promissory estoppel is intended to stop the promisor from arguing that an underlying promise should not be legally upheld or enforced. The doctrine of promissory estoppel is part of the law in the United States and other countries, although the precise legal requirements for promissory estoppel vary not only between countries but also between different jurisdictions, such as states, within the same country.

Understanding Promissory Estoppel

Promissory estoppel serves to enable an injured party to recover on a promise. There are common legally-required elements for a person to make a claim for promissory estoppel: a promisor, a promisee, and a detriment that the promisee has suffered. An additional requirement is that the person making the claim — the promisee — must have reasonably relied on the promise. In other words, the promise was one that a reasonable person would ordinarily rely on.


Another requirement further qualifies the required detriment component; the promisee must have suffered an actual substantial detriment in the form of an economic loss that results from the promisor failing to deliver on his or her promise. Finally, promissory estoppel is usually only granted if a court determines that enforcing the promise is essentially the only means by which injustice to the promisee can be rectified.

Example of Promissory Estoppel

An example of promissory estoppel might be applied in a case where an employer makes an oral promise to an employee to pay the employee a specified monthly or annual amount of money throughout the full duration of the employee's retirement. If the employee then subsequently retires based on a reliance on the employer's promise, the employer could be legally estopped from not delivering on his promise to make the specified retirement payments.

Promissory Estoppel as a Part of Contract Law

Contract law generally requires that a person receive consideration for making a promise or agreement. Legal consideration is a valuable asset that is exchanged between two parties to a contract at the time of a promise or agreement. Ordinarily, some form of consideration, either an exchange of money or a promise to refrain from some action, is required for a contract to be legally enforceable. However, in attempting to ensure justice or fairness, a court may enforce a promise even in the absence of any consideration, provided that the promise was reasonably relied on and that reliance on the promise resulted in a detriment to the promisee.

Yet @gonnif 's "gobbledygook" sounds more convincing and thorough then whatever argument you were trying to counter with. I'm no lawyer, but if I was on a Jury I would take gonnif's legal interpretation.

also this:

"The courts have identified four criteria that trigger the existence of a strong enough promise to bring about estoppel between a promisor and a promisee:

[...]
• The fulfillment of the promise is the only way the promisee can be compensated."

Promisee was compensated through phone call and whatever correspondence they needed to get back to before the offer was reneged. Also admission offer is not a "promise," it's an offer of admission. Now once again, not a lawyer, but dang there must be a reason you're on here and not practicing law.

 

[Sephirakra]

Pass two bar exams and get back to me. You have no idea what you're talking about. This post of yours is pure gobbledygook. My reference to products liability law had to do with the power or lack thereof of Mayo's disclaimer.

The legal argument that Mayo's on again off again acceptees may plead rests on the principle of promissory estoppel. Here's the definition:

What Is Promissory Estoppel?

Promissory estoppel is the legal principle that a promise is enforceable by law, even if made without formal consideration when a promisor has made a promise to a promisee who then relies on that promise to his subsequent detriment. Promissory estoppel is intended to stop the promisor from arguing that an underlying promise should not be legally upheld or enforced. The doctrine of promissory estoppel is part of the law in the United States and other countries, although the precise legal requirements for promissory estoppel vary not only between countries but also between different jurisdictions, such as states, within the same country.

Understanding Promissory Estoppel

Promissory estoppel serves to enable an injured party to recover on a promise. There are common legally-required elements for a person to make a claim for promissory estoppel: a promisor, a promisee, and a detriment that the promisee has suffered. An additional requirement is that the person making the claim — the promisee — must have reasonably relied on the promise. In other words, the promise was one that a reasonable person would ordinarily rely on.


Another requirement further qualifies the required detriment component; the promisee must have suffered an actual substantial detriment in the form of an economic loss that results from the promisor failing to deliver on his or her promise. Finally, promissory estoppel is usually only granted if a court determines that enforcing the promise is essentially the only means by which injustice to the promisee can be rectified.

Example of Promissory Estoppel

An example of promissory estoppel might be applied in a case where an employer makes an oral promise to an employee to pay the employee a specified monthly or annual amount of money throughout the full duration of the employee's retirement. If the employee then subsequently retires based on a reliance on the employer's promise, the employer could be legally estopped from not delivering on his promise to make the specified retirement payments.

Promissory Estoppel as a Part of Contract Law

Contract law generally requires that a person receive consideration for making a promise or agreement. Legal consideration is a valuable asset that is exchanged between two parties to a contract at the time of a promise or agreement. Ordinarily, some form of consideration, either an exchange of money or a promise to refrain from some action, is required for a contract to be legally enforceable. However, in attempting to ensure justice or fairness, a court may enforce a promise even in the absence of any consideration, provided that the promise was reasonably relied on and that reliance on the promise resulted in a detriment to the promisee.

It takes a law degree and passing two bar exams to paste text from Investopedia without a citation? If you want to form an argument, form it.

 

[deleted962973]

Not to mention, doctors in most other countries go to med school from 18-24. I don't think we suddenly produce a nation of more competent physicians for starting med school at 24 rather than finishing it then.

On to 2 gap years now and it's been nothing but financial strain that's taken a toll on my family and me. Good for those students who were able to juggle everything and make those sacrifices while in undergrad. Sure, more years usually correlates to more experience/maturity/etc, but sorry not everyone wants to start their career at 40. At the end of the day, it's a job. People are allowed to be upset over things. Especially when they're not even the ones who made a mistake that affects hundreds.

This is the point everyone can’t seem to comprehend. Other countries’ health systems aren’t collapsing just because people start med school at 18. We already have students complete at least a 4-year degree before joining med school, which not only tests their academic mettle, but also ensures they have some real life exposure to taking out loans, living away from home, paying bills, etc. If people can graduate from college with a high GPA and can juggle extracurriculars, a social life, studying for standardized tests, and research, I think they’ve proven that they have quite a bit of life experience relevant to medical school

 

[deleted859689]

This is the point everyone can’t seem to comprehend. Other countries’ health systems aren’t collapsing just because people start med school at 18. We already have students complete at least a 4-year degree before joining med school, which not only tests their academic mettle, but also ensures they have some real life exposure to taking out loans, living away from home, paying bills, etc. If people can graduate from college with a high GPA and can juggle extracurriculars, a social life, studying for standardized tests, and research, I think they’ve proven that they have quite a bit of life experience relevant to medical school

Isn't this assuming mose medical students aren't from upper class families and had their education paid for? I'm not arguing that younger student cannot handle the rigors of medical school, just giving a counter-argument. I can say from my own experience, I am much more mature and mentally focused than I was when I was 22. Yet my roommate in college was already working in a business firm when he was a second year in college. I don't think you can generalize maturity based on age. Everyone matures differently.

 

[deleted962973]

Isn't this assuming mose medical students aren't from upper class families and had their education paid for? I'm not arguing that younger student cannot handle the rigors of medical school, just giving a counter-argument. I can say from my own experience, I am much more mature and mentally focused than I was when I was 22. Yet my roommate in college was already working in a business firm when he was a second year in college. I don't think you can generalize maturity based on age. Everyone matures differently.

That’s exactly the point I’ve been making this whole time lol. Some 22-year-olds are definitely immature but some are incredibly put together. That’s why I keep saying you have to look at each person’s journey individually and not generalize that older = more mature and younger = emotionally not ready for medical school. We spend so much time interviewing applicants face-to-face and reading LORs and personal statements because we need to get a sense of where each individual applicant is academically and socially.

 

[deleted962973]

Right. Rude people are going to be rude, regardless of life experience. For every anecdote being given about immature young students, I could name a professor who has ghosted students last minute on promised LoRs, regularly showed up late even for finals, and discouraged female students from going into medicine due to a "ticking biological clock" among other things. For some reason, it's easier to vilify an entire generation than acknowledge an institution's wrongdoing. Sharing frustrations about a situation is being overly sensitive? Then how sensitive must policing others' reactions to something that directly affected them be...

Yes! Trying to generalize entire generations or entire groups of people based on their age is pointless. And while I think the threats of lawsuit on the Mayo thread were a little over the top, the rest of the reactions I saw were completely justified responses to being on the receiving end of horrible news. It doesn’t affect anyone here if students used that space to vent.

 

[LizzyM]

Here's how I see this legal argument regarding the Mayo situation.

What action did someone take on the basis of getting this email only to find that it was in error a few hours later? Aside from jumping up and down and telling family and friends, most applicants, I would guess, did not do anything else. They did not withdraw from waitlists, did not decline other offers, did not cancel interviews. Some of them will get admitted to Mayo eventually. Others will not. I suspect that every medical school that lost a candidate due to a faux "offer" from Mayo, will take those applicants back, reschedule interviews, etc. There will be no one who will have lost anything of monetary value due to this error.

To me, an offer of admission that, legally, can be recinded on the most flimsy of grounds, being recinded a few hours later because it was sent in error, is a different kettle of fish than an agreement between employer and employee about salary or retirement benefits.

if there is anyone who can prove that they recieved the faux offer, that they acted hastily to drop other offers and have not been able to reverse that hasty decision with another school, please PM me and I'll eat my hat (which is 100% icelandic wool and will not go down easily).