MD students and practitioners only:should DO's change their degree to MD, DO?

[se20001984]

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Just flexin my MD muscles

Your are a disgrace to MDs all over, and more importantly to the entire health care community. You probably show the same disgrace to nurses, and more importantly your patients and to the sick.

It is clearly evident that you are here for all the wrong reasons.

i feel sorry for people that rotate with you or those that you teach.

 

[Wordead]

Isn't what you learn in medical school the same for MD and DO schools (if both take the USMLE)?

The only reason to go MD is for the observed difference in competitiveness for residency (in most cases).

Having never attended a DO school, I have no idea. The PERCEIVED belief, though, is that they produce inferior physicians. And sometimes, perception is more important than reality.

Your are a disgrace to MDs all over, and more importantly to the entire health care community. You probably show the same disgrace to nurses, and more importantly your patients and to the sick.

It is clearly evident that you are here for all the wrong reasons.

i feel sorry for people that rotate with you or those that you teach.

You forgot to call him Hitler to hit the trifecta.

 

[rocketbooster]

Your are a disgrace to MDs all over, and more importantly to the entire health care community. You probably show the same disgrace to nurses, and more importantly your patients and to the sick.

It is clearly evident that you are here for all the wrong reasons.

i feel sorry for people that rotate with you or those that you teach.

Chill bro. I was obviously joking around.

The truth is MD and DO are the same except being DO makes it almost impossible to get into competitve fields. Sucks for them but they knew that before starting.

 

[JP2740]

You don't know a thing about rotations so hush. In all rotations you're wasting time doing nothing during the half the time you're there. Med student rotations period are a joke many times. You might be there for 10 hours but you're only truly gaining something for 5-6 hrs. The only main difference for DOs is that they have to find their own rotations and move around constantly. The caliber of rotations themselves are similar. Occasionally you'll even have a few DOs on your rotation.

Everyone considers you a lolely med student and at the bottom of the todumpole regardless if you're MD or DO. Fact.

Learn how to read. I'll give you a second to go back and read my post.

 

[JP2740]

Good point. Is it pretty accepted that most DOs schools have inferior rotations or does this not apply to the older, more established ones?

No idea. My friends go to MSU DO, and some in Pennsylvania? LECOMM or some ****?

 

[DrEnderW]

Chill bro. I was obviously joking around.

The truth is MD and DO are the same except being DO makes it almost impossible to get into competitve fields. Sucks for them but they knew that before starting.

It's important to remember that although there are less residency positions in a "competitive field" such as neurosurgery, for example, there are still AOA residencies for these specialties. There aren't many spots but there's a lot less people applying too. The applying to acceptance ratio is pretty good for some specialties.

 

[james2333]

Good point. Is it pretty accepted that most DOs schools have inferior rotations or does this not apply to the older, more established ones?

I don't know how it is around the rest of the county but I noticed this is half true. Since many of the schools are expanding their class size they don't have enough room to fit all students into their hospital. Take for instance Southern California. I've seen several UCLA, Loma Linda and other UC students at smaller community hospitals and sharing rotation sites at the same places as several Osteopathic students. Especially now that the Caribbean programs are trying to buy out rotation spots here its been tough on everyone.

 

[rocketbooster]

Learn how to read. I'll give you a second to go back and read my post.

M1, you dont know anything about real medicine yet. So no, no point in reading your post again because I know you have no experience to back it up. Youre just rambling about random statements your DO friends made. In 2 years you'll understand trust me.

All the rotations are similar quality as a whole. That's the truth. DOs don't receive worse rotations, but they do have to do them in random places.

 

[james2333]

Good point. Is it pretty accepted that most DOs schools have inferior rotations or does this not apply to the older, more established ones?

I don't know how it is around the rest of the county but I noticed this is half true. Since many of the schools are expanding their class size they don't have enough room to fit all students into their hospital. Take for instance Southern California. I've seen several UC students at smaller community and private hospitals ,s haring rotation sites at the same places as several Osteopathic students. Especially now that the Caribbean programs are trying to buy out rotation spots here its been tough on everyone.

 

[Bacchus]

FWIW, I've rotated with MD students from every school in my city.

 

[NeuroLAX]

FWIW, I've rotated with MD students from every school in my city.

How common is it for schools to have an on-campus hospital that they run anyway?

 

[Pons Asinorum]

M1, you dont know anything about real medicine yet. So no, no point in reading your post again because I know you have no experience to back it up. Youre just rambling about random statements your DO friends made. In 2 years you'll understand trust me.

All the rotations are similar quality as a whole. That's the truth. DOs don't receive worse rotations, but they do have to do them in random places.

I've never seen so little absolute difference in hierarchy or level of training turned into such a wieldable weapon. Only on SDN...

 

[Pons Asinorum]

M1, you dont know anything about real medicine yet. So no, no point in reading your post again because I know you have no experience to back it up. Youre just rambling about random statements your DO friends made. In 2 years you'll understand trust me.

All the rotations are similar quality as a whole. That's the truth. DOs don't receive worse rotations, but they do have to do them in random places.

Also, data or it didn't happen. Have you done rotations at every DO and MD clinical site, or are you just using a limited set of anecdotal data to make generalizations? Pot, kettle. Kettle, pot. If you are trying to say that the "quality" of the average DO clinical rotation is equal to the "quality" of the average MD clinical rotation, I'd love to see your data. Because the conventional wisdom, even as discussed in the DO forums, is that isn't true.

 

[ensuii]

I've never seen so little absolute difference in hierarchy or level of training turned into such a wieldable weapon. Only on SDN...

Nah, it's medicine. You learn by apprenticeship and people teach those coming up the rungs. Attendings teach residents and residents teach med students, etc. When I was an M1, I deferred to those more senior to me. Just the way it works.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Nah, it's medicine. You learn by apprenticeship and people teach those coming up the rungs. Attendings teach residents and residents teach med students, etc. When I was an M1, I deferred to those more senior to me. Just the way it works.

I've got plenty of experience with hierarchy, and I understand the value of hierarchy. This is an internet forum. I just find it amusing for a 3rd year to tell a 1st year to shut it down about something which they are both talking out of their asses. Just...fascinating.

 

[Bacchus]

How common is it for schools to have an on-campus hospital that they run anyway?

For DO schools? Not common at all. PCOM officials are very upfront about the hospital we had on campus. It was more profitable to sell the land to 6ABC then continue to run the hospital. It was a better business interest (probably not academic/educational interest) to sell and use the money for the school.

I assume MSU has a hospital on campus and I'd say a majority of MD schools have university hospitals.

 

[Bacchus]

Also, data or it didn't happen. Have you done rotations at every DO and MD clinical site, or are you just using a limited set of anecdotal data to make generalizations? Pot, kettle. Kettle, pot. If you are trying to say that the "quality" of the average DO clinical rotation is equal to the "quality" of the average MD clinical rotation, I'd love to see your data. Because the conventional wisdom, even as discussed in the DO forums, is that isn't true.

All we have is anecdotes. There isn't a centralized data system to compare. We could make everyone take the shelf exams, but that score is dependent on your effort, not just what happens on your rotation.

We could design a study to retroactively look at case logs of DO and MD students to compare exposure on clinical rotations.

I don't think there is an objective way to compare. 😕

I will say, as an anecdote, that my clinical education (I feel) at the larger centers in our OPTI are on par with MD students. We're at the same sites. We aren't segregated. But, I will admit, the clinical education of the osteopathic world can go from great to horrific even within the same specialty at the same school. It takes a bit more effort to seek out information about rotations so you get a good experience.

And, at this point, I'm so far into fourth year and have been "done" for so long I know my clinical skills probably are a bit "lacking" but I think that's a general theme. We have a IDGAF attitude right now, across the board, because we just want to be done.

 

[rocketbooster]

I've got plenty of experience with hierarchy, and I understand the value of hierarchy. This is an internet forum. I just find it amusing for a 3rd year to tell a 1st year to shut it down about something which they are both talking out of their asses. Just...fascinating.

What am I wrong on? DO students go to random MD sites and random community sites. Some MD students only go to academic sites while some only go to community sites. The main difference is MD go to the same place(s) for every rotation while DO go to different states. It would suck to move that much but the actual rotations are similar.

 

[NeuroLAX]

The main difference is MD go to the same place(s) for every rotation while DO go to different states.

Are you talking core rotations, away rotations, or just altogether? Because at the moment it sounds like you're making a generalization.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

What am I wrong on? DO students go to random MD sites and random community sites. Some MD students only go to academic sites while some only go to community sites. The main difference is MD go to the same place(s) for every rotation while DO go to different states. It would suck to move that much but the actual rotations are similar.

You are wrong about the bolded part, except about the very few places on which you might have reliable data. I know places where that is the bolded is not the case, ergo you are wrong. The rotations are similar in that yes, there is a core clinical clerkship in medicine for all MD and DO programs. I'm pretty sure you can understand that there are differences beyond "some places have that clerkship close to where the medical school is and some places have it farther away and you have to travel." Amirite? And you are using your wrong information to smash somebody else over the head. If all you are doing on a rotation is learning for a few hours and then doing something worthless for the majority of it, I think that says more about you or your rotation location than about all rotations on that clerkship everywhere, ever. You are talking out of you ass, the very thing you accused someone else of doing.

 

[JP2740]

M1, you dont know anything about real medicine yet. So no, no point in reading your post again because I know you have no experience to back it up. Youre just rambling about random statements your DO friends made. In 2 years you'll understand trust me.

All the rotations are similar quality as a whole. That's the truth. DOs don't receive worse rotations, but they do have to do them in random places.

Let me help you. "If rotations count as training" now go back and read it

 

[JourneyAgent]

I did exhaustive reading when deciding whether to apply to DO schools and decided top dollar for half-hazard rotation structure would have to be a last ditch try if I didn't get in to an MD school.

There is a difference. Our schools have to have the rotations in place to be accredited. Loosing a site means the big wigs scramble to arrange another. Not so with DO schools. They can put it on you to arrange them and call it freedom of choice. That's shady.

I'm sure the better run schools are better run. But it not as tightly regulated. More ducks have to be lined up for an MD start up to happen. That's a fact.

I would love for you guys to have the option to apply for MD accreditation because it would be better for my future colleagues in my opinion.

But feel free to pay big money for a holistic identity, it's on y'all.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

All we have is anecdotes. There isn't a centralized data system to compare. We could make everyone take the shelf exams, but that score is dependent on your effort, not just what happens on your rotation.

We could design a study to retroactively look at case logs of DO and MD students to compare exposure on clinical rotations.

I don't think there is an objective way to compare. 😕

I will say, as an anecdote, that my clinical education (I feel) at the larger centers in our OPTI are on par with MD students. We're at the same sites. We aren't segregated. But, I will admit, the clinical education of the osteopathic world can go from great to horrific even within the same specialty at the same school. It takes a bit more effort to seek out information about rotations so you get a good experience.

And, at this point, I'm so far into fourth year and have been "done" for so long I know my clinical skills probably are a bit "lacking" but I think that's a general theme. We have a IDGAF attitude right now, across the board, because we just want to be done.

I agree with everything that you said. The data doesn't exist. There is conventional wisdom, problems with bias included, that support what we both seem to be saying. But somone saying "all MD and DO rotations are the same, except for one small detail of location" isn't, I think, true.

 

[Bacchus]

I agree. It happens on both sides.

 

[rocketbooster]

Are you talking core rotations, away rotations, or just altogether? Because at the moment it sounds like you're making a generalization.

Core

 

[rodmichael82]

MD vs DO thread. Quota of the week fulfilled thanks!

 

[drotoman]

You should be only allowed to put the degree(s) you actually earned next to your name. MD and DO trainings are not equivalent, especially during the clinical years. This has nothing to do with MDs being better physicians than DOs and vice versa. As long as there are two separate accreditation bodies enforcing different standards, they never will be. Simple as that. Now this thread needs to be closed.

 

[as1212559]

This is probably the stupidest idea I've ever heard and will never happen. Go to a MD school if you want an MD. You made the choice of choosing a school with no admission standards and getting a degree that basically excludes you from the competitive residencies. If you didn't know that going in, that's your fault for your poor research.

/end thread

achieved

 

[DrEnderW]

Rocketbooster... cool your engines kid. Hopefully you're not in the northeast and we won't have to be colleagues.

 

[kedrin]

I go to a DO school that has assigned clinical rotation sites and has entrance stats and match lists comparable to most mid tier MD schools. In the end I will admit that this is a two way street. Not all DO schools deserve the same label just as not all MD schools deserve the same label. There are terrible DO schools and there are terrible MD schools. The only differences are the number of these schools and the proportions in which they are found in.

In the end I wish I went to a MD school because of the extra hurdles I have to go through even if I have way above average MD student stats and want to do something competitive. However, my school is one of the best if not the best DO school.

 

[kedrin]

oh and to get back on topic. While it is nice for a patient to not have to try and decipher all of the damn letters behind peoples names..... Just leave the letters alone who gives a F after you have completed your training.

 

[Oluedo]

..

 

[Oluedo]

Just curious, why would someone with a 35 go to a DO school?

Foreign undergraduate degree.

 

[JourneyAgent]

I go to a DO school that has assigned clinical rotation sites and has entrance stats and match lists comparable to most mid tier MD schools. In the end I will admit that this is a two way street. Not all DO schools deserve the same label just as not all MD schools deserve the same label. There are terrible DO schools and there are terrible MD schools. The only differences are the number of these schools and the proportions in which they are found in.

In the end I wish I went to a MD school because of the extra hurdles I have to go through even if I have way above average MD student stats and want to do something competitive. However, my school is one of the best if not the best DO school.

Actually no....there really isn't any terrible MD schools. That's not to say some aren't much better or that some don't confer more advantages. But that's the point about tighter regulations--it assures a base level of quality.

But I agree with you. Once you finish, who cares.

 

[rocketbooster]

Not sure why there are so many hostile ppl here. I only speak the truth.

MD and DO school are more or less the same. Some of the MD rotations might be better, but 4 years later everyone has had a fairly similar education and will be able to practice medicine.

The only mainly difference that I have mentioned several times has been confirmed by DOs over and over. Going DO makes it very difficult to get into competitive fields.

Half of my class goes into primary care anyway, which you certainly have no problem doing coming from a DO school. Therefore, I don't judge DO students any differently than the kids at my school. I judge all ppl equally who end up in primary care regardless of their degree , unless I actually know they had higher scores and still chose those fields. I would say 95% of the ppl at my school who chose family med only do so because of the lower scores. A handful do peds but honestly that's only the females. No judging there from me. And then many are doing emergency med. High respect for them. Great field. Same goes for internal med. Some of the biggest gunners at my school choose IM for the challenge.

 

[JP2740]

I guess it's fair they get an MD + degree. The + being the extra training in faith healing, etc.

 

[DrEnderW]

Not sure why there are so many hostile ppl here. I only speak the truth.

MD and DO school are more or less the same. Some of the MD rotations might be better, but 4 years later everyone has had a fairly similar education and will be able to practice medicine.

The only mainly difference that I have mentioned several times has been confirmed by DOs over and over. Going DO makes it very difficult to get into competitive fields.

Half of my class goes into primary care anyway, which you certainly have no problem doing coming from a DO school. Therefore, I don't judge DO students any differently than the kids at my school. I judge all ppl equally who end up in primary care regardless of their degree , unless I actually know they had higher scores and still chose those fields. I would say 95% of the ppl at my school who chose family med only do so because of the lower scores. A handful do peds but honestly that's only the females. No judging there from me. And then many are doing emergency med. High respect for them. Great field. Same goes for internal med. Some of the biggest gunners at my school choose IM for the challenge.

It's not hostility toward most of the content, it's the manner in which you express your opinions. People don't appreciate the unnecessary condescending statements and jabs that do nothing to further the discussion of the topic. As for competitive specialties, remember there are AOA residencies for these fields.

Again, you start judging your fellow peers by board score and specialty. When you meet a colleague in lowly primary care, would you ask for their Step 1 score before giving your respect? Will you eventually not respect someone without 2 academic fellowships? When does the condescension end?

 

[Doublj01]

I transferred from a US-MD school to a US-DO school for location reasons. The curriculum was the same as my MD school, with the exception of learning OMM, which has its functionality. I think its complete crap to say that going to an MD>DO, it sad to see some of these comments from nearsighted people entering medicine. If anything I am truly a md/do having gone to both allopathic and osteopathic schools.

 

[JP2740]

It's not hostility toward most of the content, it's the manner in which you express your opinions. People don't appreciate the unnecessary condescending statements and jabs that do nothing to further the discussion of the topic. As for competitive specialties, remember there are AOA residencies for these fields.

Again, you start judging your fellow peers by board score and specialty. When you meet a colleague in lowly primary care, would you ask for their Step 1 score before giving your respect? Will you eventually not respect someone without 2 academic fellowships? When does the condescension end?

Why do DO students try hard to get into MD residencies? Curious?

 

[JP2740]

If anything I am truly a md/do having gone to both allopathic and osteopathic schools.

No

 

[qxrt]

There are terrible DO schools and there are terrible MD schools. The only differences are the number of these schools and the proportions in which they are found in.

The general consensus is that there are no terrible US MD schools, as they are all held to rigorous minimum standards by the LCME. Sure, some may be more prestigious or have more research opportunities than others, but that does not mean that any of them are terrible.

As for the MD designation: If a school wants to award the MD degree, it should be held to the same standards as any other MD school. This seems like a no-brainer. If a DO school meets those standards and is accredited by the LCME, then by all means, let them designate themselves a DO/MD school and award the MD degree.

 

[BlaseFaire]

See below.

 

[BlaseFaire]

Why do DO students try hard to get into MD residencies? Curious?

For the same reasons that all medical students choose residency programs.

 

[JP2740]

Why are DO students so mad? Be proud of your degree. Why do you think it's so worthless that you need an MD designation

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I transferred from a US-MD school to a US-DO school for location reasons. The curriculum was the same as my MD school, with the exception of learning OMM, which has its functionality. I think its complete crap to say that going to an MD>DO, it sad to see some of these comments from nearsighted people entering medicine. If anything I am truly a md/do having gone to both allopathic and osteopathic schools.

lol dude you went to San Juan and bailed when they lost their accreditation (location reasons my ass). Not really a great comparison.

 

[as1212559]

It's not useless. Color me an OMS-0 but my degree will serve me well. There seem to be a few self-loathing DO students on this website. I don't think the OP is one of them. The vast majority of OMS's/residents/attendings I have met are very happy with their DO degree. The minority is just loud on sdn because this is the internet.

 

[JourneyAgent]

Why are DO students so mad? Be proud of your degree. Why do you think it's so worthless that you need an MD designation

Our d!ckhead vibe is the reason why they construct a counter-culture identity process. When I read some of the comments by us in this thread I get embarrassed that so many of us are thoughtless pr!cks.

Of course that kind of insulting tone will make the discussion more emotional.

The OP asked if there should be a unified title and and presumably a unified regulatory body. I think it would benefit DO students by shielding them from the speculative investments of people trying to cash in on medical training being one of the last viable tickets to an upper middle class lifestyle.

All these DO start ups and SMP's and carribean medical schools are predatory to some degree.

The holistic DO crap is just a front for a rip off. DO m1 and m2's and premeds would be none the wiser without a place like sdn for graduates to voice their discontent and some still remain willfully clueless.

But casting around pompous innuendo on our part is really just the cruel markings of adolescent intellects.

 

[Bacchus]

Our d!ckhead vibe is the reason why they construct a counter-culture identity process. When I read some of the comments by us in this thread I get embarrassed that so many of us are thoughtless pr!cks.

Of course that kind of insulting tone will make the discussion more emotional.

The OP asked if there should be a unified title and and presumably a unified regulatory body. I think it would benefit DO students by shielding them from the speculative investments of people trying to cash in on medical training being one of the last viable tickets to an upper middle class lifestyle.

All these DO start ups and SMP's and carribean medical schools are predatory to some degree.

The holistic DO crap is just a front for a rip off. DO m1 and m2's and premeds would be none the wiser without a place like sdn for graduates to voice their discontent and some still remain willfully clueless.

But casting around pompous innuendo on our part is really just the cruel markings of adolescent intellects.

I like you.

 

[altruistss]

We have bigger adversaries than to be concerned with the peculiarities of different physician designating titles.

They're physicians exactly like us. Their struggle is vis a vis there own regulatory bodies and on its present course of opening up more and more campuses without supplying adequate clinical rotations and residency programs they are not going to meet LGME standards. But the ones that do should be welcomed to make the transition. We do have historical precedence for the change over. One the California md schools used to be a DO school if I'm not mistaken--irvine?

It's not our issue. It's entirely irrelevant to us.

We have more in common to fight against the dilution of physician training than we have in quaint opposition of the evidence behind cranial-sacral manipulation and other OMM techniques.

All the hollistic vs allopathic approaches is total horse ****. The only people who can make that threat viable is NP's because they have more time to spend marketing themselves to patients. And the import of such activity is separate from it's theoretical claims.

The only legitimate argument I have read in the whole forum

 

[Pons Asinorum]

I like you.

Read some of his stuff in nontrad. I agree with you, actually interesting to read.