MD students and practitioners only:should DO's change their degree to MD, DO?

[JP2740]

It's not useless. Color me an OMS-0 but my degree will serve me well. There seem to be a few self-loathing DO students on this website. I don't think the OP is one of them. The vast majority of OMS's/residents/attendings I have met are very happy with their DO degree. The minority is just loud on sdn because this is the internet.

That's my point. A lot of people are very supporting (bad grammar) of their DO school, their training, what went into getting the degree. So why so bent on being known as MD's? For respect from the public? Idk. I don't give a **** at the end of the day, but the schools are NOT the same. Don't care what you guys think. My friend is on rotations partying every single day, dont care if it's anecdotal. One day just sat on his ass on the couch and said he doesn't feel like going to work 3rd year pedes

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[jw3600]

I go to a DO school that has assigned clinical rotation sites and has entrance stats and match lists comparable to most mid tier MD schools. In the end I will admit that this is a two way street. Not all DO schools deserve the same label just as not all MD schools deserve the same label. There are terrible DO schools and there are terrible MD schools. The only differences are the number of these schools and the proportions in which they are found in.

In the end I wish I went to a MD school because of the extra hurdles I have to go through even if I have way above average MD student stats and want to do something competitive. However, my school is one of the best if not the best DO school.

What school?

 

[Akail]

That's my point. A lot of people are very supporting (bad grammar) of their DO school, their training, what went into getting the degree. So why so bent on being known as MD's? For respect from the public? Idk. I don't give a **** at the end of the day, but the schools are NOT the same. Don't care what you guys think. My friend is on rotations partying every single day, dont care if it's anecdotal. One day just sat on his ass on the couch and said he doesn't feel like going to work 3rd year pedes

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal buddy. I had a friend at top 50 (I think?) school tell me that for his surg rotation on some days he walked around long enough to be seen and went home to study for his shelves. More than once on the interview trail people told me about how they were doing 2 rotations at once or had more some online stuff in lieu of rotations. I think clinical rotations has less to do with MD vs DO and more to do the school itself. If there are any pre-meds reading this thread, I hope one of the things they take away is that you should inquire about the quality of rotations at any school you're interested in attending, regardless of if its MD or DO but probably especially DO.

 

[Wordead]

I'm fine with working with DOs. And if they're proud of their degrees, then why are they trying to change it? Do you think anybody actually believes it's for patient care? GTFO.

 

[Didierdrogba]

It's not useless. Color me an OMS-0 but my degree will serve me well. There seem to be a few self-loathing DO students on this website. I don't think the OP is one of them. The vast majority of OMS's/residents/attendings I have met are very happy with their DO degree. The minority is just loud on sdn because this is the internet.

No he is not.

I can't care less about my degree as long as I get to perform the same function. I was just pretty curious to see why some DO students would rather be known as MD's and what MD's views are. But I guess this thread just proves again and again that this topic is a pandora's box that would be better off just left alone.

 

[CollagenNtonic]

Wow. The things I read while avoiding gluconeogenesis. I genuinely hope to never experience the displeasure of professional encounter with quite a few of you. Arrogance in medicine is far more dangerous than a lack of quality, actual or percieved, in a clinical rotation.

 

[JP2740]

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal buddy. I had a friend at top 50 (I think?) school tell me that for his surg rotation on some days he walked around long enough to be seen and went home to study for his shelves. More than once on the interview trail people told me about how they were doing 2 rotations at once or had more some online stuff in lieu of rotations. I think clinical rotations has less to do with MD vs DO and more to do the school itself. If there are any pre-meds reading this thread, I hope one of the things they take away is that you should inquire about the quality of rotations at any school you're interested in attending, regardless of if its MD or DO but probably especially DO.

Good job completely avoiding the point of the post. Why do DO students/doctors want to be MD so bad if they're proud of their training?

 

[JP2740]

I'm fine with working with DOs. And if they're proud of their degrees, then why are they trying to change it? Do you think anybody actually believes it's for patient care? GTFO.

Same here on all points.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I voted no. I don't mind the degree name, it doesn't bother me. I'd rather see improvements in the quality of all DO schools and less expansion. A stop to this whole "we're more holistic" promotional nonsense would be nice too.

 

[Akail]

Good job completely avoiding the point of the post. Why do DO students/doctors want to be MD so bad if they're proud of their training?

I'll post this only because it's a Saturday...how do you explain any extremist or radical opinion? I mean how large is the DO network now if there are now at least 5k graduates a year? Regardless of what the actual number is, I think that it's such a big group of people that you're going to see a lot of different kinds of people...you're going to see a lot of people that grew up dreaming of becoming a doctor and practicing medicine so they get there by going to a DO school. Tossed in with everyone else are people that grew up wanting to be "SDN5830, MD of Harvard University" and they're resentful when it doesn't work out for them the way they wanted.

Edit: I was really debating adding this and I'm sure I'm going to get banned for a TOS violation somehow but when I read your post I sortof feft like you might as well have asked me something like: "why are white people rednecks" and it made me chuckle.

 

[thepoopologist]

I voted no. I don't mind the degree name, it doesn't bother me. I'd rather see improvements in the quality of all DO schools and less expansion. A stop to this whole "we're more holistic" promotional nonsense would be nice too.

On a fundamental level I agree with you but that would take effort, which an organization like the AOA is not capable of unless their backs are against the wall. Improve actual quality? Expand less? While we're at it, why not admit less people per class, pay the professors more and decrease tuition? God forbid they do these things.

What would be easier would be for them to do nothing (keep everything exactly the same) except change the degree to Doctor of Medicine, a degree given to USMD students, to unaccredited corporate-run Caribbean schools, to Foreign graduates who enter the states with an MBBCH (well in their case the ability to put the initials on their coats without a whole round of bitching).

Changing some wording would require less effort than getting all the DO schools to implement change to make them stand out as a quality, decently priced option to medical training. So I vote for the shorter way, to homogenize the name. If they can change the degree from Doctor of Osteopathy to Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine while increasing tuition by 5-10% a year they can certainly change it again so I don't have to keep explaining what the ****ing degree stands for after years of hard work. And while they're at it I would like a gold medal during my graduation ceremony because why the hell not. Consumers already can't tell a USMD from a Bangledeshi medical graduate why not ithrow DO graduates into the mix.

 

[Akail]

On a fundamental level I agree with you but that would take effort, which an organization like the AOA is not capable of unless their backs are against the wall. Improve actual quality? Expand less? While we're at it, why not admit less people per class, pay the professors more and decrease tuition? God forbid they do these things.

What would be easier would be for them to do nothing (keep everything exactly the same) except change the degree to Doctor of Medicine, a degree given to USMD students, to unaccredited corporate-run Caribbean schools, to Foreign graduates who enter the states with an MBBCH (well in their case the ability to put the initials on their coats without a whole round of bitching).

Changing some wording would require less effort than getting all the DO schools to implement change to make them stand out as a quality, decently priced option to medical training. So I vote for the shorter way, to homogenize the name. If they can change the degree from Doctor of Osteopathy to Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine while increasing tuition by 5-10% a year they can certainly change it again so I don't have to keep explaining what the ****ing degree stands for after years of hard work. And while they're at it I would like a gold medal during my graduation ceremony because why the hell not. Consumers already can't tell a USMD from a Bangledeshi medical graduate why not ithrow DO graduates into the mix.

A DO school can't just start awarding MD degrees on a whim; they would have to be accredited by the LCME. You bring up an interesting point about the foreign grads and carribbean student thoughs...certainly foreign school's aren't LCME accredited are they? Is it just that a separate accrediting body in the other country grants "Doctor of Medicine" and licensing boards accepts them as such?

 

[thepoopologist]

Having never attended a DO school, I have no idea. The PERCEIVED belief, though, is that they produce inferior physicians. And sometimes, perception is more important than reality.

I think it depends on who you ask. The USMD students I've asked all have different opinions. The viewpoint I've heard that I tend to agree with is that there is a huge variation in quality. Some DO schools are good, some are bad, some DO students good, some bad. The viewpoint that I don't agree with is a generalization based on where someone went to medical school. However, everyone on both sides agree that USMD students have the greatest advantage in the ACGME match, as they should.

 

[thepoopologist]

A DO school can't just start awarding MD degrees on a whim; they would have to be accredited by the LCME. You bring up an interesting point about the foreign grads and carribbean student thoughs...certainly foreign school's aren't LCME accredited are they? Is it just that a separate accrediting body in the other country grants "Doctor of Medicine" and licensing boards accepts them as such?

Yes we can. We could call the degree anything we wanted provided our own accrediting body approves of it. LCME has nothing to do with DO schools and therefore have no control over us.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Wow. The things I read while avoiding gluconeogenesis. I genuinely hope to never experience the displeasure of professional encounter with quite a few of you. Arrogance in medicine is far more dangerous than a lack of quality, actual or percieved, in a clinical rotation.

You wanna know what else is dangerous? Hitler.

Arrogant premeds and medical students on SDN are just like Hitler. There, I said it.

/derp

 

[thepoopologist]

In conclusion, I actually don't care. I went to a DO school because I got into a DO school and because when I shadowed some as a pre-med, after finding out about the option on SDN, I realized a few key things:

1. They perform the same function
2. They make the same money
3. While they were at a slight disadvantage in the ACGME match, the middle 80% were still getting into ACGME spots at a regular rate. On top of that was the AOA match, and while the AOA match had greater variations of quality, they were open only to DO's and graduates of these residency programs were still being offered excellent (and equivalent) salaries out of residency, regardless of the actual quality of the residency. Plus we take the COMLEX, which is an awesomely passable test. As a Caribbean graduate there is only the ACGME match and there is only the USMLE. It really boiled down to the greatest chances of getting a residency, not the initials. Now I want more because I'm American and I want everything by nature, especially for free. If the initials change, it'll be a bonus because now I don't have to explain to friends and family what my degree ****ing means after spending four years busting my balls, two of which were spent in clinicals performing the same function as USMD and USIMG students. If they don't I don't ****ing care because I'll still be doing the specialty I want and being paid accordingly.

 

[VenusinFurs]

Man I guarantee any ounce of disrespect the general public has towards the DO title would disappear if there was a House DO or a Rex Morgan DO.

 

[thepoopologist]

House MD: It's lupus

House DO: It's lupus and we need to remove the headboard so I can do some lymphatic drainage in the ICU, to move that fluid around.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Man I guarantee any ounce of disrespect the general public has towards the DO title would disappear if there was a House DO or a Rex Morgan DO.

Perhaps, but I feel that people would have to be bombarded with John Doe, DO and Jane Doe, DO stories for that to happen. I think it's more ignorance than disrespect.

Remember this guy? This is just one example of many. A graduate of my school has been on numerous TV shows and reality TV (Big Brother, Dr. 90210, The Doctors, etc.), where he is either presented as Dr. ___ or frequently misrepresented as an MD, rarely represented as a DO.

 

[Akail]

Is that the guy that wrote On Call in Hell?

 

[NeuroLAX]

Is that the guy that wrote On Call in Hell?

He's the one.

 

[VenusinFurs]

Yeah I meant ignorance, dunno why I said disrespect. But I think a great show about a DO or a very annoying yet perplexingly popular soap opera syndicated cartoon about a DO would at least get people being like, "wait, the ****'s a DO?"

 

[K31]

Yes we can. We could call the degree anything we wanted provided our own accrediting body approves of it. LCME has nothing to do with DO schools and therefore have no control over us.

How about the Department of Education?

American Osteopathic Association, Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation
1952/2011/S2016
Scope of recognition: : the accreditation and preaccreditation ("Provisional Accreditation") throughout the United States of freestanding institutions of osteopathic medicine and of osteopathic medical programs leading to the degree of Doctor of Osteopathy or Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine.

Liaison Committee on Medical Education
1952/2007/F2012
Scope of recognition: the accreditation of medical education programs within the United States leading to the M.D. degree

Sure, COCA can start granting MD degrees, if you guys don't care about your degree being recognized in the US or being able to get financial aid.

 

[thepoopologist]

How about the Department of Education?





Sure, COCA can start granting MD degrees, if you guys don't care about your degree being recognized in the US or being able to get financial aid.

Is this defined by them or are they defining it based on what the accreditation body says?

 

[K31]

Is this defined by them or are they defining it based on what the accreditation body says?

From here, it appears that the accrediting agency must have its scope approved by the ED:

602.31 Agency submissions to the Department

(a) Applications for recognition or renewal of recognition. An accrediting agency seeking initial or continued recognition must submit a written application to the Secretary. Each accrediting agency must submit an application for continued recognition at least once every five years, or within a shorter time period specified in the final recognition decision. The application must consist of--

(1) A statement of the agency’s requested scope of recognition;

(2) Evidence, including documentation, that the agency complies with the criteria for recognition listed in subpart B of this part and effectively applies those criteria; and

(3) Evidence, including documentation, of how an agency that includes or seeks to include distance education or correspondence education in its scope of recognition applies its standards in evaluating programs and institutions it accredits that offer distance education or correspondence education.

(b) Applications for expansions of scope. An agency seeking an expansion of scope by application must submit a written application to the Secretary. The application must--

(1) Specify the scope requested;

(2) Include documentation of experience in accordance with §602.12(b); and

(3) Provide copies of any relevant standards, policies, or procedures developed and applied by the agency and documentation of the application of these standards, policies, or procedures.

So COCA could not begin accrediting schools to grant the MD degree before being given permission by the government.

 

[thepoopologist]

Interesting, never knew that. I stand corrected.

 

[Akail]

MudPhuds are such an excellent resource

 

[BlaseFaire]

In conclusion, I actually don't care. I went to a DO school because I got into a DO school and because when I shadowed some as a pre-med, after finding out about the option on SDN, I realized a few key things:

1. They perform the same function
2. They make the same money
3. While they were at a slight disadvantage in the ACGME match, the middle 80% were still getting into ACGME spots at a regular rate. On top of that was the AOA match, and while the AOA match had greater variations of quality, they were open only to DO's and graduates of these residency programs were still being offered excellent (and equivalent) salaries out of residency, regardless of the actual quality of the residency. Plus we take the COMLEX, which is an awesomely passable test. As a Caribbean graduate there is only the ACGME match and there is only the USMLE. It really boiled down to the greatest chances of getting a residency, not the initials. Now I want more because I'm American and I want everything by nature, especially for free. If the initials change, it'll be a bonus because now I don't have to explain to friends and family what my degree ****ing means after spending four years busting my balls, two of which were spent in clinicals performing the same function as USMD and USIMG students. If they don't I don't ****ing care because I'll still be doing the specialty I want and being paid accordingly.

You are the poopgenius.

 

[ruprecht]

The dismantling of the osteopathic national board examinations, the DO specialty certifications, the states--where applicable-- DO boards, the DO societies, and all of the fresh stationary that'd need to be printed . . . Yikes. This would be overwhelming. Would board certified osteopathic dermatologists (and all other DO specialties) just cease to exist? Think of all the clerical workers, their families, the freshly unemployed---What next, chiropractors, podiatrists, veterinarians, dogs marrying cats, and who knows? This could be the beginning of the end of civilization. The skinny is: debates like this--questioning the validity of divvying up healthcare providers by matter of degree--would end. The industries that print diplomas, administer exams, boards, etc exists solely to stay in business. Bottom line? A fraction of the bureaucracy to ensure public safety with universal credentialing would save money, and Sunday afternoon debates going nowhere would end.

 

[487806]

Many discussions around this topic have been raised over at the DO forum on sdn, but I would like to start a new poll here at the allopathic forum just to see what MD's and MD students feel about this issue, at least on SDN....

Basically this is about DO's changing their degrees from DO (doctor of osteopathy) to MD, DO (Doctor of medicine, diploma in osteopathy).

For DO's side of argument, please visit:
http://eyedrd.org/2010/12/resolution-calling-for-degree.html

(granted, the above link does not represent the osteopathic community)

if anything, DO should be absorbed into MD. they are one and the same. OMM lost its value

 

[aburnet2]

If you want to be at a Harvard (or some other Ivy) Residency probably best to go MD, if you want tons of research options also best to go MD. Otherwise.....

If you want to be a Doctor and take care of patients while practicing medicine either will more than suffice. Nobody really cares about it all when your a Doctor unless your a pre med. (as long as you competent)

 

[docnotsopc]

If you want to be at a Harvard (or some other Ivy) Residency probably best to go MD, if you want tons of research options also best to go MD. Otherwise.....

If you want to be a Doctor and take care of patients while practicing medicine either will more than suffice. Nobody really cares about it all when your a Doctor unless your a pre med. (as long as you competent)

Says the premed (who will start at a DO school in the fall)

There should be a rule that pre-med DOs are not allowed to make claims about the degree, its experiences, and its outcomes.

Sincerely, an older DO student

 

[sylvanthus]

Says the premed (who will start at a DO school in the fall)

There should be a rule that pre-med DOs are not allowed to make claims about the degree, its experiences, and its outcomes.

Sincerely, an older DO student

Agreed.

 

[AlabamaPop]

For the fun of it, I'd say OS, MD. You get certified in Osteopathic Science, and get your Doctor of Medicine degree.

 

[Didierdrogba]

For the fun of it, I'd say OS, MD. You get certified in Osteopathic Science, and get your Doctor of Medicine degree.

-DO student

 

[GalenAgas]

How about we compromise. The DO's can change their title to:


MD*


Man look at that asterisk. It's like an ugly pimple that just won't go away.

 

[BlaseFaire]

Careful when you pop that asterisk.

 

[dbeast]

Did... any... body... notice... that the DO resolution is from 2010?

 

[Medstart108]

Many discussions around this topic have been raised over at the DO forum on sdn, but I would like to start a new poll here at the allopathic forum just to see what MD's and MD students feel about this issue, at least on SDN....

Basically this is about DO's changing their degrees from DO (doctor of osteopathy) to MD, DO (Doctor of medicine, diploma in osteopathy).

For DO's side of argument, please visit:
http://eyedrd.org/2010/12/resolution-calling-for-degree.html

(granted, the above link does not represent the osteopathic community)

That would give them 2 degrees making it seem like they are superior to us in some way. When most of them just couldn't get into real medical school.

 

[wonderdog]

That would give them 2 degrees making it seem like they are superior to us in some way. When most of them just couldn't get into real medical school.

What if MD's could take a course in osteopathic manipulation? Then, it would even out the field.

 

[JP2740]

What if MD's could take a course in osteopathic manipulation? Then, it would even out the field.

Sorry MDs are not going to start wasting their time with faith healings and magic tricks

 

[Bacchus]

Sorry MDs are not going to start wasting their time with faith healings and magic tricks

N=1 http://cme.hms.harvard.edu/cmeups/pdf/00271286.pdf

 

[ED50]

http://www.temple.edu/medicine/depa...artments/physical_rehab_residents_website.htm

 

[NeuroLAX]

That would give them 2 degrees making it seem like they are superior to us in some way. When most of them just couldn't get into real medical school.

Sorry MDs are not going to start wasting their time with faith healings and magic tricks

It's hard to tell if these posts were made to be funny, because they sound incredibly insecure about learning additional treatment options. Do you think the MD/MBA, MD/MS, or MD/MPH students are superior to those that just have a MD? If one day everything is made MD and students have the opportunity to learn osteopathic manipulative treatments, I would suspect that it wouldn't even be a master's degree due to the amount of credits we receive for OPP, which is only 3 hours a week at my school.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

It's been awhile since I've wandered into any "non-step 1 forum"....

Not surprisingly the Pre-Allo's that made it into an Allo schools are still compensating for the hugs their father's never gave them.

Keep chasing the dream, I'm sure Daddy will tell you how proud he is of you just as soon as you match into Plastics.

 

[docnotsopc]

It's been awhile since I've wandered into any "non-step 1 forum"....

Not surprisingly the Pre-Allo's that made it into an Allo schools are still compensating for the hugs their father's never gave them.

Keep chasing the dream, I'm sure Daddy will tell you how proud he is of you just as soon as you match into Plastics.

gold

 

[jerseytrash]

It's been awhile since I've wandered into any "non-step 1 forum"....

Not surprisingly the Pre-Allo's that made it into an Allo schools are still compensating for the hugs their father's never gave them.

Keep chasing the dream, I'm sure Daddy will tell you how proud he is of you just as soon as you match into Plastics.

Honestly, this is not representative of probably 99% of MD student views on DO students. I've rotated with DO students and found them to be among the most pleasant, kind, and friendly I've ever worked with. They were just as competent as the other MD students I had on my rotations. I've also had plenty of DO residents and they're all excellent residents with equally strong training in their respective specialties.

 

[Didierdrogba]

Honestly, this is not representative of probably 99% of medical student views on DO students. I've rotated with DO students and found them to be among the most pleasant, kind, and friendly I've ever worked with. They were just as competent as the other MD students I had on my rotations. I've also had plenty of DO residents and they're all excellent residents with equally strong training in their respective specialties.

 

[jerseytrash]

Edited for ya

 

[Didierdrogba]

Edited for ya

LOL, not offended, thank god I'm no longer a premed. I was just messin' with ya