MD students and practitioners only:should DO's change their degree to MD, DO?

[Dr Dazzle]

As a DO student, who did a straight undergrad to DO program, without much knowledge of the implications of how I would viewed during time of residency applications, there is credence to rocketbooster's statement. I am interested in IM but now I realize that some of top programs are 'off-limits' because I am a DO candidate. I really had no idea at the time, so when my little sister asked me whether she should do MD or DO, I told her MD, just so she could keep all her options open. I am happy I gave her that advice. That being said, I am a happy DO student, if that matters.

Most MD students don't make it to top tier IM programs either. For most people , DO versus MD doesn't matter at the end of the day. Many mid tier programs give a lot of opportunities too.

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[rocketbooster]

As a DO student, who did a straight undergrad to DO program, without much knowledge of the implications of how I would viewed during time of residency applications, there is credence to rocketbooster's statement. I am interested in IM but now I realize that some of top programs are 'off-limits' because I am a DO candidate. I really had no idea at the time, so when my little sister asked me whether she should do MD or DO, I told her MD, just so she could keep all her options open. I am happy I gave her that advice. That being said, I am a happy DO student, if that matters.

Of course there is. Thank you for saying that. The only ppl who are against me are DO students in denial and random ppl who have no med student background whatsoever (who have no place on this thread).

That being said, if you want to do primary care for sure, then it probably doesn't matter the route you take. Although, I would still strongly advise ppl to do MD to keep all their options open because before med school you truly know little about medicine and your specialty choice can easily and probably will change during med school. Also, like the above poster said, you probably have no chance at a top primary care program. Those programs are as competitive as the surgical subspecialties.

If you can only get into an offshore MD program though, I would definitely go DO instead.

Once you start residency, neither me nor anyone cares if you're DO or MD. However, it is a huge difference when applying to residency.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

Of course there is. Thank you for saying that. The only ppl who are against me are DO students in denial and random ppl who have no med student background whatsoever (who have no place on this thread).

That being said, if you want to do primary care for sure, then it probably doesn't matter the route you take. Although, I would still strongly advise ppl to do MD to keep all their options open because before med school you truly know little about medicine and your specialty choice can easily and probably will change during med school. Also, like the above poster said, you probably have no chance at a top primary care program. Those programs are as competitive as the surgical subspecialties.

If you can only get into an offshore MD program though, I would definitely go DO instead.

Once you start residency, neither me nor anyone cares if you're DO or MD. However, it is a huge difference when applying to residency.

Does going to a top IM program really matter? I'm just arguing that it doesn't make a difference for many people.

 

[DrEnderW]

Of course there is. Thank you for saying that. The only ppl who are against me are DO students in denial and random ppl who have no med student background whatsoever (who have no place on this thread).

That being said, if you want to do primary care for sure, then it probably doesn't matter the route you take. Although, I would still strongly advise ppl to do MD to keep all their options open because before med school you truly know little about medicine and your specialty choice can easily and probably will change during med school. Also, like the above poster said, you probably have no chance at a top primary care program. Those programs are as competitive as the surgical subspecialties.

If you can only get into an offshore MD program though, I would definitely go DO instead.

Once you start residency, neither me nor anyone cares if you're DO or MD. However, it is a huge difference when applying to residency.

This is all very fair, accurate, and reasonable. I think the issue was with the tone and condescension you showed towards a poster, not the bulk of the content.

I don't think anyone can argue with the above.

 

[jerseytrash]

Does going to a top IM program really matter? I'm just arguing that it doesn't make a difference for many people.

I think most solid mid-tier programs are as good as your Hopkins, MGH, BWH, Vandy, what have you for training and fellowship options.

If you want to work in top tier academia, want to go to "the best of the best" programs for... well whatever reason, then yes a top tier IM residency will help you get top tier IM fellowships and top tier academic careers.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

I think most solid mid-tier programs are as good as your Hopkins, MGH, BWH, Vandy, what have you for training and fellowship options.

If you want to work in top tier academia, want to go to "the best of the best" programs for... well whatever reason, then yes a top tier IM residency will help you get top tier IM fellowships and top tier academic careers.

Most people who go DO don't care much for academic med and research.

 

[jerseytrash]

Most people who go DO don't care much for academic med and research.

How do you know that? Do you have numbers? Are you talking in relative to MD grads? I would say most MD students also don't ultimately go into/care for academic medicine and research either. I've seen more than a few DO grads in academic positions - one of our preclinical attendings does primarily teaching/medical education stuff and she is a DO.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Does going to a top IM program really matter? I'm just arguing that it doesn't make a difference for many people.

I think it matters a lot. Just being in a high powered place opens up your training options (eg in medicine GI/cards/A&I/Heme/Onc). On top of that, you get better access to leaders in the field which can open up many job opportunities. Those people will know recruiters and physician groups all across the country, so if you want to practice in the Hamptons or LA or San Fran, you'll have better access to those jobs than someone who trains in a regional residency.

Sure, the overall training might be not be all that different, but the intangibles will be. Going MD will at least keep some of these options open while going DO virtually shuts them down.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

I think it matters a lot. Just being in a high powered place opens up your training options (eg in medicine GI/cards/A&I/Heme/Onc). On top of that, you get better access to leaders in the field which can open up many job opportunities. Those people will know recruiters and physician groups all across the country, so if you want to practice in the Hamptons or LA or San Fran, you'll have better access to those jobs than someone who trains in a regional residency.

Sure, the overall training might be not be all that different, but the intangibles will be. Going MD will at least keep some of these options open while going DO virtually shuts them down.

There are many mid tier high powered academic centers which take DOs and allow for fellowship options.

 

[jw3600]

Is anyone else kind of hoping the hold on rocketbooster's account tips towards full on ban?

 

[Dr Dazzle]

How do you know that? Do you have numbers? Are you talking in relative to MD grads? I would say most MD students also don't ultimately go into/care for academic medicine and research either. I've seen more than a few DO grads in academic positions - one of our preclinical attendings does primarily teaching/medical education stuff and she is a DO.

Yes, in comparison to MDs. If you really want academic medicine... God only knows why so many people are obsessed with academic medicine...and want to end up at a prestigious program, then def. go MD. In fact, go to a TOP MD. Because really, opportunities at mid-low tier MD schools are also open to many DOs. I agree that Top MD school students usually end up at top academic programs. Mid tier MDs often struggle to get into these programs, and DOs are limited except for some specialties.

 

[jerseytrash]

Yes, in comparison to MDs. If you really want academic medicine... God only knows why so many people are obsessed with academic medicine...and want to end up at a prestigious program, then def. go MD. In fact, go to a TOP MD. Because really, opportunities at mid-low tier MD schools are also open to many DOs. I agree that Top MD school students usually end up at top academic programs. Mid tier MDs often struggle to get into these programs, and DOs are limited except for some specialties.

You're still not giving me any numbers or citations dude. I'm not saying I don't believe you but that is a bold claim to make that DOs are necessarily less interested in academic medicine.

As for why people like it - relatively good lifestyle despite lower pay, interest in research or medical education, and a more "correct" practice of medicine based on evidence. Also you get to see the cool cases that you may not see much of in the community.

 

[notbobtrustme]

There are many mid tier high powered academic centers which take DOs and allow for fellowship options.

Sure, but it may be more difficult to get a fellowship where you want to practice. Remember, it's not easy going between states. You need to get licensed/boarded in each individual state that you want to practice in and this isn't cheap nor quick.

 

[pipe dream]

Mid tier MDs often struggle to get into these programs, and DOs are limited except for some specialties.

It's harder for DOs in the really competitive specialties, but not impossible. DOs have matched into an ACGME residency in every specialty as far as I know.

Sure, but it may be more difficult to get a fellowship where you want to practice. Remember, it's not easy going between states. You need to get licensed/boarded in each individual state that you want to practice in and this isn't cheap nor quick.

Doctors move and change states all the time. This isn't unusual nor is it something that would hinder someone's chances at fellowship.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

It's harder for DOs in the really competitive specialties, but not impossible. DOs have matched into an ACGME residency in every specialty as far as I know.



Doctors move and change states all the time. This isn't unusual nor is it something that would hinder someone's chances at fellowship.

DOs can get into their own AOA competitive specialties can't they? Seems the odds are same as getting one on the MD side. Other than that ACGME primary care, anesthesia and EM are pretty open to DOs.

 

[JP2740]

Dude... Rocketbooster... Take a chill pill.

None of this even applies to me, but your nonsense about "2nd string profession" and crap like that is just ridiculous. That kind of attitude is why people are skeptical of doctors in this country.

Believe it or not, just because you're a med student doesn't make you all knowing. I think the "doesn't want to be around gunners" is not realistic either, but learn to conduct yourself with some decency.

You're quickly becoming one the the biggest troll posters on here. Every time DO or and other health background comes up your the first to make belittling insults.

Dude I admit I was obviously trolling most of this thread, but ****. No one avoids MD school because they think there's a "gunner personality." It's ridiculous.

I will say this, my physician referred me to a DO, and I didn't mind seeing one. Come on guys. At the end of the day, the doctor who wins is the one who cares for the patient, wants to get better, stays up to date on literature, etc. Maximizes patient safety with therapies, all that good stuff. It's not exclusive to being an MD. There are some *******es on both sides of the fence.

If we want to merge MD/DO into one entity let's do it a smart way. Make sure there's a standardized level of quality of training and think about the best ways to handle the new health care sytem that will benefit patients and make sure our lifestyles are relatively protected for all the hard work we put in.

I do think the level of training for DO's is not as great, but it's something that can be compensated for, and not in a difficult manner either. I was once interested in rad/onc and I think one of the big hitters in the field is a DO physician. Let's focus on practicing safe, high quality medicine. Not what the badge reads.

 

[pipe dream]

DOs can get into their own AOA competitive specialties can't they? Seems the odds are same as getting one on the MD side. Other than that ACGME primary care, anesthesia and EM are pretty open to DOs.

Again, DOs have matched into ACGME residencies in every field. Yes they have their own AOA residencies, but we're talking about ACGME residencies.

Also, EM is getting more and more competitive for everyone so don't paint it with the same brush as primary care.

 

[pipe dream]

I do think the level of training for DO's is not as great

You're a 2nd year, correct? How would you know what the level of training for DOs is? Have you worked with any? Have you sat in on the DO curriculum (and for more than just the 10 minutes some med schools allow you to on interview day)? I'm not trying to be overly defensive, but I think some of you think you're defending DOs when in fact you're perpetuating myths that continue the stigma.

 

[JP2740]

You're a 2nd year, correct? How would you know what the level of training for DOs is? Have you worked with any? Have you sat in on the DO curriculum (and for more than just the 10 minutes some med schools allow you to on interview day)? I'm not trying to be overly defensive, but I think some of you think you're defending DOs when in fact you're perpetuating myths that continue the stigma.

All I have is anecdotal evidence from my very good friends in a few different DO schools. Based on my experience, I think so, and I said either way, it could be made up for in the end. I don't think it's a tremendous deal or a reason to look down on them. But yea, I do think the quality is different based on my few friends in their respective DO schools.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

All I have is anecdotal evidence from my very good friends in a few different DO schools. Based on my experience, I think so, and I said either way, it could be made up for in the end. I don't think it's a tremendous deal or a reason to look down on them. But yea, I do think the quality is different based on my few friends in their respective DO schools.

Quality also varies at many MD programs in the US. Not all are created same. Likewise, not all DO schools are created the same.

 

[deleted6669]

is anyone else kind of hoping the hold on rocketbooster's account tips towards full on ban?

yup.....

 

[notbobtrustme]

Quality also varies at many MD programs in the US. Not all are created same. Likewise, not all DO schools are created the same.

Yes, but every MD school must meet the LCME standards and those standards are the bare minimum you need to succeed in residency. DO schools have no such obligation.

 

[pipe dream]

All I have is anecdotal evidence from my very good friends in a few different DO schools. Based on my experience, I think so, and I said either way, it could be made up for in the end. I don't think it's a tremendous deal or a reason to look down on them. But yea, I do think the quality is different based on my few friends in their respective DO schools.

Anecdotal evidence like what? Was it about clerkships? Because yeah, some DO schools lack in that area, but unless you've been on clerkships, you don't really know what it's like in the MD world to compare to what you've heard. I can't imagine anyone at an established DO school telling you anecdotal evidence as a 2nd year that would make you generalize all DO schools.

Yes, but every MD school must meet the LCME standards and those standards are the bare minimum you need to succeed in residency. DO schools have no such obligation.

No, DO schools have their own accrediting board and that board's standards must be somewhat adequate for your bare minimum considering over 70% of those who apply get an MD residency.

 

[jerseytrash]

Yes, but every MD school must meet the LCME standards and those standards are the bare minimum you need to succeed in residency. DO schools have no such obligation.

You know that DO schools have their own accreditation board right?

 

[notbobtrustme]

You know that DO schools have their own accreditation board right?

ya, but COCA accreditation isn't the same as LCME.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

ya, but COCA accreditation isn't the same as LCME.

And LCME is not the same as COCA...your point is? Surely, COCA does a decent job. Looking at the many competent DO physicians in ALL specialties. While you are at it, wanna talk about FMGs who get residencies in US from unknown med schools?

 

[JP2740]

Anecdotal evidence like what? Was it about clerkships? Because yeah, some DO schools lack in that area, but unless you've been on clerkships, you don't really know what it's like in the MD world to compare to what you've heard. I can't imagine anyone at an established DO school telling you anecdotal evidence as a 2nd year that would make you generalize all DO schools.

I have 3 friends in three different DO schools. They told me their workload/hours/responsibilities and put it down themselves comparing it to MD. They don't care because they get to chill more (with me lol). And can come home (across states) during their clerkships. I know I cannot comment completely. It's just what they tell me, they were the ones putting down their own training, but they don't care because in the end they'll be docs. I would say two of my friends in DO are hard working, compassionate and dedicated though and will be good docs I'm sure of in the future regardless of 3rd/4th year training, which I don't even know how much contributes into someone becoming a "good" doctor. I can comment more on that once I'm in residency or finish that, decades from now.

They went to DO school because their MCAT scores were pretty atrocious. I did awesome on the MCAT and I too think it doesn't really mean **** in terms of being a doctor. Just a hoop to jump through that I was able to do better on. Maybe if I didn't enjoy reading novels and they did our positions would be switched lol. One of my buddies is a great, smart guy who just can't beat verbal, struggling to get into med school and doesn't want to leave his long term relationship to the carribean, which is less than favorable no matter what circumstance. I have no doubt if he got in, he would succeed.

There's a lot of variables in play why someone has to go to DO school in the end. I don't think that anyone going to a DO school cannot be a good doctor. I just don't see the point in blanket converting the DO -> MD and doing nothing else. I also think it's utter rubbish what the PA was saying in this thread about people going DO to avoid the gunner mentality in MD, which I don't really feel right now? I spend 90% of my time at home streaming lectures and studying at my desk anyway lol.

Aside from this debate, I think we all, MD and DO, need to think of better ways to put some checks and balances in place to ensure that safe practices are going on in this field. I've seen many people personally, and heard of many others from upper classmen hurt by unsafe, unnecessary treatments that weren't called for in those particular cases.

 

[DrEnderW]

^^^

 

[notbobtrustme]

And LCME is not the same as COCA...your point is? Surely, COCA does a decent job. Looking at the many competent DO physicians in ALL specialties. While you are at it, wanna talk about FMGs who get residencies in US from unknown med schools?

I never once said that DOs don't make competent or even excellent physicians. I think the conversation lost a couple points along the road. I'm saying that the competitiveness of DOs is lower than MDs across the board. Bringing FMGs into this only furthers my point; their competitiveness is even lower than DOs.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

I never once said that DOs don't make competent or even excellent physicians. I think the conversation lost a couple points along the road. I'm saying that the competitiveness of DOs is lower than MDs across the board. Bringing FMGs into this only furthers my point; their competitiveness is even lower than DOs.

I would argue several DO schools are on par with MD schools.

 

[sanityonleave]

I do think that the two should be integrated -- but, as other posters have pointed out, it's not just a wholesale convert all the DOs to MDs kinda thing. Personally, I think the standardized test scores and residency match should be integrated across MD/DO so that the separate matches and separate boards go away with the eventual goal of merging to a standardized degree down the road.

That said, I think that in order for that to happen we need to have the LCME take over accreditation of all the schools (MD + DO). There are absolutely DO schools that are better than MD schools, but there are also DO schools which have opened which have been accused of not having enough resources for their students. I don't have any firsthand knowledge, but if you take a trip over to the Osteopathic forum, there are a number of students there discussing how COCA has not been doing their due diligence with regard to accreditation and ensuring that new schools are up to an adequate standard. I think that bringing all the schools together under one accreditation envelope would ensure a consistent "bare minimum" standard across the board, which is what COCA is accused of not doing adequately.

I do think having both degrees is silly. Ideally, I think that they should be merged and OMM should become an elective offered at historically-DO schools, but I don't think that will ever happen due to political resistance from both side (albeit moreso on the DO side, as far as I can tell).

To avoid having to go to school with most of the folks posting in this thread....reason enough right there...
C'mon folks get it together, you should be hating on PAs and NPs, remember? I thought this was SDN after all....
(PS I didn't answer the poll but would have voted no. some of the best docs I know are DOs. Chiefs of depts, etc. None of them are ashamed of their DO initials and they have no reason to be.).
There are folks with stellar grades and great mcats who decide on DO because they like the focus of the training(rural and/or community based as opposed to BIG ACADEMIC MEDICAL CTR) better and the folks they would be training with. There are definitely more uptight gunners in a typical MD program than a typical DO program. some folks just don't want to hang around with that crowd. Given the choice I would go DO over MD every time.

emedpa, I enjoy your posts and in general agree with a lot of what you have to say. Rocketbooster is a troll, and it's no great loss to these forums if his hold turns into a ban.

That said, do you not understand that generalizing MD students as "MD gunners" is just as offensive and stereotypical as calling DO students "2nd tier slackers"? That stating that people go to DO schools because they want to focus on a more patient-centered approach to care carries with it an implicit belief that allopathic schools turn out people who don't care about their patients? That both of these things are incredibly offensive to those of us who are in MD schools who both care about our patients and our fellow classmates?

For what it's worth, I've rarely encountered either a) classmates who don't care about patients or b) classmates that don't care about each other in my allopathic school. When I have, they've been isolated bad apples like rocketbooster, not a pervading attitude throughout a group or class.

Finally, while he didn't exactly put it eloquently, the reality is that part of what rocketbooster said is true: the majority (and likely the vast majority, though I have no data to back up either assertion) of students who go to DO school attend DO school because either there is something on their application that makes it difficult for them to get into allopathic schools or because they have a compelling reason to attend a particular school (proximity to family, SO at the school, PA going into the 3 year program, etc). The majority of students do not choose DO school because they believe there to be anything significantly different about the education they would get versus their MD counterparts; in fact, for those planning to do an ACGME residency, they're betting on the opposite being true: that the training is essentially the same. I think it's great that some people choose going the DO route because they like a particular emphasis those schools place as far as curriculum or they believe in OMT as a big adjunct to their future clinical practice -- good for them and screw what anyone else thinks of their choice. But characterizing that view as representative of the majority of students who choose to attend DO schools is disingenuous, and you know it.

 

[deleted6669]

Iemedpa, I enjoy your posts and in general agree with a lot of what you have to say. Rocketbooster is a troll, and it's no great loss to these forums if his hold turns into a ban.
That said, do you not understand that generalizing MD students as "MD gunners" is just as offensive and stereotypical as calling DO students "2nd tier slackers"? That stating that people go to DO schools because they want to focus on a more patient-centered approach to care carries with it an implicit belief that allopathic schools turn out people who don't care about their patients? That both of these things are incredibly offensive to those of us who are in MD schools who both care about our patients and our fellow classmates?
For what it's worth, I've rarely encountered either a) classmates who don't care about patients or b) classmates that don't care about each other in my allopathic school. When I have, they've been isolated bad apples like rocketbooster, not a pervading attitude throughout a group or class.
Finally, while he didn't exactly put it eloquently, the reality is that part of what rocketbooster said is true: the majority (and likely the vast majority, though I have no data to back up either assertion) of students who go to DO school attend DO school because either there is something on their application that makes it difficult for them to get into allopathic schools or because they have a compelling reason to attend a particular school (proximity to family, SO at the school, PA going into the 3 year program, etc). The majority of students do not choose DO school because they believe there to be anything significantly different about the education they would get versus their MD counterparts; in fact, for those planning to do an ACGME residency, they're betting on the opposite being true: that the training is essentially the same. I think it's great that some people choose going the DO route because they like a particular emphasis those schools place as far as curriculum or they believe in OMT as a big adjunct to their future clinical practice -- good for them and screw what anyone else thinks of their choice. But characterizing that view as representative of the majority of students who choose to attend DO schools is disingenuous, and you know it.

I know there are many MDs who are pt centered, mellow folks. I also know that there are a lot of really nasty folks out there. in 26 yrs working in em I have never had a single DO refuse to hear about a pt from me in person or on the phone. every nasty internist and surgeon I have ever had the displeasure of being forced to work with has been an md . it's not that I haven't been exposed to a lot of DOs either. I have worked with a large # of them and can't say I have met a sinle one who was not pleasant to be around and more laid back than their md counterparts. maybe I have just seen the best of what the DO profession has to offer and the worst of what the MD profession has to offer but that has been my experience. I know lots of folks who were looking to go into fp or em and set their sights on DO school from the very start. before taking mcats and before deciding where they wanted to live. I know there are folks who fall into DO because they couldn't get into md. I guess I just have been fortunate not to work with those folks. I have had several chiefs who are DOs and they all had quality undergrad prep and good grades and mcats( and yes, we discussed this as I have thought about going back to medschool many times over the years).

 

[Dr Dazzle]

Does it really matter that somebody who had a 3.6+ gpa and 27-28 MCAT went DO, because they didn't want to retake the MCAT or try going MD again after waiting another cycle? I know many DO students who chose DO because they were in this position and just moved on with life. Does 3 points on the MCAT make the difference between a DO or MD that significant? I personally think its way overrated. Things are equalized with boards in med school and then residency. Many DO students set up rotations where MD students do theirs. So who cares?

 

[Robin des Bois]

Just integrale DO with MD and make DOs pass the MD board exams. What's the need of having two professions who do nearly the exact same thing?

 

[docnotsopc]

Just integrale DO with MD and make DOs pass the MD board exams. What's the need of having two professions who do nearly the exact same thing?

Easier said than done. As others pointed out above, there is huge arrogance on the AOA (osteopathic) side because they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Who gets involved in the AOA? The same nut jobs who take OMM way too seriously and truly believe in their fantasy world that DOs are hottest thing since slices bread. So its a vicious cycle and quite frankly i doubt the AOA arrogance will end anytime soon. There is a reason that the merger has been delayed.....and i have every reason to believe it was on the AOA side rather than the ACGME side.

The vast majority of DO students would change their degree title to MD in a second. However, there is still fraction of DO students who believe they are better than MDs because we are holistic blah blah

 

[DopaDO]

Easier said than done. As others pointed out above, there is huge arrogance on the AOA (osteopathic) side because they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Who gets involved in the AOA? The same nut jobs who take OMM way too seriously and truly believe in their fantasy world that DOs are hottest thing since slices bread. So its a vicious cycle and quite frankly i doubt the AOA arrogance will end anytime soon. There is a reason that the merger has been delayed.....and i have every reason to believe it was on the AOA side rather than the ACGME side.

The vast majority of DO students would change their degree title to MD in a second. However, there is still fraction of DO students who believe they are better than MDs because we are holistic blah blah

Sorry to be off topic, but where did you hear this? Do you have a link?

 

[Oo Cipher oO]

Easier said than done. As others pointed out above, there is huge arrogance on the AOA (osteopathic) side because they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Who gets involved in the AOA? The same nut jobs who take OMM way too seriously and truly believe in their fantasy world that DOs are hottest thing since slices bread. So its a vicious cycle and quite frankly i doubt the AOA arrogance will end anytime soon. There is a reason that the merger has been delayed.....and i have every reason to believe it was on the AOA side rather than the ACGME side.

The vast majority of DO students would change their degree title to MD in a second. However, there is still fraction of DO students who believe they are better than MDs because we are holistic blah blah

I think thats a bit of a stretch to say. Most students simply want better clinical opportunities, a better chance at residencies of their choice, and less bias. There are ways to achieve this without sacrificing our identities as DOs.

 

[Oo Cipher oO]

Sorry to be off topic, but where did you hear this? Do you have a link?

Nothing for sure yet but the AOA president was at our school a couple weeks ago and said there has been some resistance from the some of the osteopathic specialty programs that are worried about what the merger might do to them (close some spots down, etc). He said it may cause delay of a year or more from the target of 2015. It seems that most of the AOA leadership is onboard with the merger so that is still an encouraging sign.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Nothing for sure yet but the AOA president was at our school a couple weeks ago and said there has been some resistance from the some of the osteopathic specialty programs that are worried about what the merger might do to them (close some spots down, etc). He said it may cause delay of a year or more from the target of 2015. It seems that most of the AOA leadership is onboard with the merger so that is still an encouraging sign.

FOMA president pretty much said the same thing to us.

 

[K31]

I think thats a bit of a stretch to say. Most students simply want better clinical opportunities, a better chance at residencies of their choice, and less bias. There are ways to achieve this without sacrificing our identities as DOs.

What "identity as DOs"? We're all physicians. Most DOs (students and practicing physicians) that I have discussed it with, in real life as well as on SDN, agree that any differences are nothing more than superficial.

 

[K31]

Nothing for sure yet but the AOA president was at our school a couple weeks ago and said there has been some resistance from the some of the osteopathic specialty programs that are worried about what the merger might do to them (close some spots down, etc).

Meaning they are afraid their residencies won't meet accreditation standards, but they'd rather fight and potential deny their grads access to ACGME fellowships than fix their deficiencies.

 

[Textbookversion]

Meaning they are afraid their residencies won't meet accreditation standards, but they'd rather fight and potential deny their grads access to ACGME fellowships than fix their deficiencies.

Fixing the deficiencies isn't always about deficiencies in clinical training though. ACGME programs have what I think are fairly stringent research requirements for core faculty. AOA does not. AOA you can have a big community program where the faculty love teaching and being clinicians but do zero research.

That's not a viable program in ACGME land and wouldn't sneak past the RRC. I think that is one hang up with the merger. AOA calls this the "community based" residency model or something like that. IDK. I don't have too much info on the AOA that's just what I'd heard.

I'm not a resident so I can't tell you if it's important or not that your faculty are doing research if you have no plans to do academics yourself, but there you go. My hunch is no, it doesn't matter that much.

 

[Robin des Bois]

It great that the USDOs decided to embrace science, looking forward for DCs (chiros) and other "alternative medicine" groups to do the same.

 

[DrEnderW]

It great that the USDOs decided to embrace science, looking forward for DCs (chiros) and other "alternative medicine" groups to do the same.

What are you blabbering about?

I think you may have a lack of understanding that DOs are licensed physicians in the US and have been for many years... obviously their medical training, rotations, residency, and medical practice all revolve around scientific principles.

A proposed residency merger has nothing to do with this...

 

[Robin des Bois]

What are you blabbering about?

I think you may have a lack of understanding that DOs are licensed physicians in the US and have been for many years... obviously their medical training, rotations, residency, and medical practice all revolve around scientific principles.

A proposed residency merger has nothing to do with this...

I ain't talking about the residency merger, I was talking about how ostheopaths made their education equal to MDs in the past, before that, it was just an unscientific cult, like chiropractic is now.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I ain't talking about the residency merger, I was talking about how ostheopaths made their education equal to MDs in the past, before that, it was just an unscientific cult, like chiropractic is now.

Their education and treatments weren't probably all that different or different in effectiveness prior to the advent of major pharmacology and antibiotics i.e in the 40s which is when DOs started likewise studying that as well. Generally historically the boundary between DOs and MDs have been a lot closer.
But yah, there are books on history.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Their education and treatments weren't probably all that different or different in effectiveness prior to the advent of major pharmacology and antibiotics i.e in the 40s which is when DOs started likewise studying that as well. Generally historically the boundary between DOs and MDs have been a lot closer.
But yah, there are books on history.

Just FYI but 1929 was when pharmacology was added to the DO curriculum.

 

[Robin des Bois]

I hate it when quackers (like DCs) manage to push for their quackery to get legimitized because of the money they spend on this. And politicians don't care about the public, so they go with it just for the money.
The AMA was right when they called chiropractic an unscientific cult.