MD students and practitioners only:should DO's change their degree to MD, DO?

[Didierdrogba]

Many discussions around this topic have been raised over at the DO forum on sdn, but I would like to start a new poll here at the allopathic forum just to see what MD's and MD students feel about this issue, at least on SDN....

Basically this is about DO's changing their degrees from DO (doctor of osteopathy) to MD, DO (Doctor of medicine, diploma in osteopathy).

For DO's side of argument, please visit:
http://eyedrd.org/2010/12/resolution-calling-for-degree.html

(granted, the above link does not represent the osteopathic community)

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[calvnandhobbs68]

What...that's even more confusing than the way it is right now.

 

[swamprat]

Yeah that's stupid if anything make it all 1 degree idc but just wait till after I match

 

[JourneyAgent]

I'd be happy to help the DO's by sharing the title if that's what they wanted but there's an ugly truth to the way DO schools abandon their 3rd and 4th years without providing solid rotation sites. That **** wouldn't fly under our regulatory bodies. So bringing them in would put many in hot water from go.

 

[Amazingmuzmo]

If someone really wants that MD behind their name then they should have gone to an allopathic achool. There is no rule or jurisdiction that stops a DO from performing anything their MD counterparts can do, I don't see why a DO would want the MD title so much. The last thing i would want is MD, DO because that is even more confusing. Would allopathic physicians be MD, MD?

 

[rocketbooster]

This is probably the stupidest idea I've ever heard and will never happen. Go to a MD school if you want an MD. You made the choice of choosing a school with no admission standards and getting a degree that basically excludes you from the competitive residencies. If you didn't know that going in, that's your fault for your poor research.

/end thread

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

lol the comments under that article are hilarious...as is the "resolution" itself and the reasoning they give

 

[Slowpoke]

I don't mind at all. Makes no difference to me.

 

[BuddyTheElf]

I think it's funny that you're asking this question to MD's, when it wouldn't affect them. That's like asking Dentists if DO's should change their degree. Or straight people if gays should marry. If it has nothing to do with you, why does it matter.

 

[notbobtrustme]

DO schools aren't allowed to issue MD degrees; only schools approved by the LCME can do that. If DO schools get approval, then sure, I don't care.

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

.

 

[JP2740]

The training isn't equal, I do know that. My friend at a DO school, his pedes rotation was 4 days a week ~5 hours a day for example. Sometimes less days.

 

[Wordead]

Errybody wanna be a doctor, ain't nobody wanna do the work.

 

[evilbooyaa]

This is probably the stupidest idea I've ever heard and will never happen. Go to a MD school if you want an MD. You made the choice of choosing a school with no admission standards and getting a degree that basically excludes you from the competitive residencies. If you didn't know that going in, that's your fault for your poor research.

/end thread

+1, but not as harshly as it's put here.

Although there will be some murmurs when AOA and ACGME supposedly come together in 2015. Even though MD PDs will still discriminate against DOs and DO PDs will discriminate against MDs.

 

[se20001984]

This is probably the stupidest idea I've ever heard and will never happen. Go to a MD school if you want an MD. You made the choice of choosing a school with no admission standards and getting a degree that basically excludes you from the competitive residencies. If you didn't know that going in, that's your fault for your poor research.

/end thread

class A *****

 

[JP2740]

Napoleon complex is strong in these ones.

 

[Fox800]

class A *****

Now I remember why I have rocketbooster on my ignore list.

 

[rocketbooster]

Just flexin my MD muscles

 

[235009]

1. you can't just decide to name your degree whatever you want. getting an MD in the US actually means something: that you graduated from a med school that adheres to the standards of the LCME and you passed step 1 and step 2 of the USMLE. for the majority of DOs neither of these is true.

2. if this ridiculous resolution were to actually pass and be implemented (which of course will never happen) i guarantee you that 95% of DO school graduates will use the "MD" designation alone and completely drop/ignore the additional "DO" designation.

 

[JP2740]

Just flexin my MD muscles

All the DO's are mirin our respect and prestige and just want a piece of the pie. Lets make a deal. You want MD designation, get rid of your faith healing and ****. Evidence based medicine ftw

 

[bocanutz]

This is probably the stupidest idea I've ever heard and will never happen. Go to a MD school if you want an MD. You made the choice of choosing a school with no admission standards and getting a degree that basically excludes you from the competitive residencies. If you didn't know that going in, that's your fault for your poor research.

/end thread

If it's the stupidest idea you've ever heard, then it'll probably happen. Stupid ideas always have a tendency to become policy, especially when it's top-down.

But otherwise I agree.

 

[Lys Ile Glu Leu]

All the DO's are mirin our respect and prestige and just want a piece of the pie. Lets make a deal. You want MD designation, get rid of your faith healing and ****. Evidence based medicine ftw

Lolz. You two must have the same IQ.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

yo did you lose your way back to the pre-osteo forum?

 

[evilbooyaa]

1. you can't just decide to name your degree whatever you want. getting an MD in the US actually means something: that you graduated from a med school that adheres to the standards of the LCME and you passed step 1 and step 2 of the USMLE. for the majority of DOs neither of these is true.

2. if this ridiculous resolution were to actually pass and be implemented (which of course will never happen) i guarantee you that 95% of DO school graduates will use the "MD" designation alone and completely drop/ignore the additional "DO" designation.

Agree with all of this.

If DO schools want to get their **** together and get LCME accredited and force all their students to get through Step 1/Step 2 and turn into an allopathic school (I don't care if they keep the OMM stuff as long as they take out anything that isn't EBM-proven beneficial), then sure, let the graduates become MDs.

As for the second point, completely agree. The discrimination is improving, but even most DO students would agree with the second point.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

1. you can't just decide to name your degree whatever you want. getting an MD in the US actually means something: that you graduated from a med school that adheres to the standards of the LCME and you passed step 1 and step 2 of the USMLE. for the majority of DOs neither of these is true.

2. if this ridiculous resolution were to actually pass and be implemented (which of course will never happen) i guarantee you that 95% of DO school graduates will use the "MD" designation alone and completely drop/ignore the additional "DO" designation.

1. All of that can be changed probably, especially the step 1 & step 2 part if they make that the main board.

 

[DrEnderW]

The issue I also see is having an MD, DO makes it appear that a DO physician somehow has more graduate level degrees than an MD. While this makes no difference to me, it definitely would just extend confusion for the general public. A DO does not have two doctorates like an MD, PhD and it makes a mockery of that.

I'm all for making DO initials into MD to unify the system and stop confusion. If I have to explain to another person the difference between the two I'm going to go insane.

I second all the above posters about having to adhere to the same standards. Clearly, some schools and sites don't meet this. If these standards are met, a doctor is a doctor is a doctor.

 

[Akail]

.

 

[Bacchus]

Many discussions around this topic have been raised over at the DO forum on sdn, but I would like to start a new poll here at the allopathic forum just to see what MD's and MD students feel about this issue, at least on SDN....

Basically this is about DO's changing their degrees from DO (doctor of osteopathy) to MD, DO (Doctor of medicine, diploma in osteopathy).

For DO's side of argument, please visit:
http://eyedrd.org/2010/12/resolution-calling-for-degree.html

(granted, the above link does not represent the osteopathic community)

It might be semantics to some, but this isn't the degree's official title anymore.

 

[ensuii]

It might be semantics to some, but this isn't the degree's official title anymore.

How'd you get mod Bacchus? Aren't you a DO? Did you have to take USMLE to be competitive for it?

 

[Bacchus]

How'd you get mod Bacchus? Aren't you a DO? Did you have to take USMLE to be competitive for it?

The DO brotherhood founded SDN. The rest is history.

 

[Oluedo]

Funny how people have this attitude even when they are in an MD school in say Texas. Got in with an MCAT score of 25 but will be willing to call a DO student that got in with 31 in California lazy.

Errybody wanna be a doctor, ain't nobody wanna do the work.

 

[JourneyAgent]

We have bigger adversaries than to be concerned with the peculiarities of different physician designating titles.

They're physicians exactly like us. Their struggle is vis a vis there own regulatory bodies and on its present course of opening up more and more campuses without supplying adequate clinical rotations and residency programs they are not going to meet LGME standards. But the ones that do should be welcomed to make the transition. We do have historical precedence for the change over. One the California md schools used to be a DO school if I'm not mistaken--irvine?

It's not our issue. It's entirely irrelevant to us.

We have more in common to fight against the dilution of physician training than we have in quaint opposition of the evidence behind cranial-sacral manipulation and other OMM techniques.

All the hollistic vs allopathic approaches is total horse ****. The only people who can make that threat viable is NP's because they have more time to spend marketing themselves to patients. And the import of such activity is separate from it's theoretical claims.

 

[rocketbooster]

Funny how people have this attitude even when they are in an MD school in say Texas. Got in with an MCAT score of 25 but will be willing to call a DO student that got in with 31 in California lazy.

It is hilarious I agree. 31 mcat means you could easily get into an MD school somewhere. If you didnt apply broadly that you're fault. 31 MCAT ending up at a DO school is even more hilarious.

Awww yeeaaa flexing those MD muscles

 

[Oluedo]

And 35?

It is hilarious I agree. 31 mcat means you could easily get into an MD school somewhere. If you didnt apply broadly that you're fault. 31 MCAT ending up at a DO school is even more hilarious.

Awww yeeaaa flexing those MD muscles

 

[JP2740]

And 35?

Just curious, why would someone with a 35 go to a DO school?

 

[ensuii]

I really hate threads like these. I'm a DO but I'm not one of those pro-AOA, osteopath 'til I die kind of guys. I'm not going to add to some of the flaming posts above this but I don't think I'm a minority in my perspective. I went to a DO school which as a career perspective was probably less than ideal from what I planned for myself at the beginning of undergrad. Still, I think I got a great education (clinical and otherwise). I never really felt like I had to discount for my degree in my specialty decision and I didn't feel like it was a limitation for me in the matching process. Could I have gotten more interviews at more prestigious places if I had went to an allopathic school? Probably. I had enough interviews to feel like I could cancel some without jeopardizing my likelihood of matching so it's not anything I'm particularly bitter about.

Point being, I think this thread captures an ugly segment of the DO community. There are some guys out there that would literally castrate themselves if they were forced to relinquish the DO title. There are others that would give up their first born to be in an MD. If seeing this subgroup of people admire your letters makes you want to jerk yourself off, then that's great you've found a source of satisfaction but I really do think it's superficial, egotistical and immature enough to warrant some personal introspection (certainly nothing anyone says on SDN is going to show you how juvenile the mentality is). I think both groups are at the end of the extreme and there are more people in the subgroup that I'm trying to speak for (I'm sure people will disagree, but chances are that as a DO, I spend more time with the DO community relative to most MD students). Yeah, I'm a DO. I don't think I'm hot stuff, but I'm not embarrassed by my degree either. I certainly don't feel automatically inferior to anyone just because they have two different letters after their name. I went to school to get a DO degree and I really could care less about trying to change the letters. There are so many better subjects of discussion or issues requiring advocacy that this degree issue is a low-yield investment of time and effort, IMO.

 

[JP2740]

I really hate threads like these. I'm a DO but I'm not one of those pro-AOA, osteopath 'til I die kind of guys. I'm not going to add to some of the flaming posts above this but I don't think I'm a minority in my perspective. I went to a DO school which as a career perspective was probably less than ideal from what I planned for myself at the beginning of undergrad. Still, I think I got a great education (clinical and otherwise). I never really felt like I had to discount for my degree in my specialty decision and I didn't feel like it was a limitation for me in the matching process. Could I have gotten more interviews at more prestigious places if I had went to an allopathic school? Probably. I had enough interviews to feel like I could cancel some without jeopardizing my likelihood of matching so it's not anything I'm particularly bitter about.

Point being, I think this thread captures an ugly segment of the DO community. There are some guys out there that would literally castrate themselves if they were forced to relinquish the DO title. There are others that would give up their first born to be in an MD. If seeing this subgroup of people admire your letters makes you want to jerk yourself off, then that's great you've found a source of satisfaction but I really do think it's superficial, egotistical and immature enough to warrant some personal introspection (certainly nothing anyone says on SDN is going to show you how juvenile the mentality is). I think both groups are at the end of the extreme and there are more people in the subgroup that I'm trying to speak for (I'm sure people will disagree, but chances are that as a DO, I spend more time with the DO community relative to most MD students). Yeah, I'm a DO. I don't think I'm hot stuff, but I'm not embarrassed by my degree either. I certainly don't feel automatically inferior to anyone just because they have two different letters after their name. I went to school to get a DO degree and I really could care less about trying to change the letters. There are so many better subjects of discussion or issues requiring advocacy that this degree issue is a low-yield investment of time and effort, IMO.

Cliff notes: I'm a DO, and am not opposed to changing to MD.

 

[Bacchus]

I really hate threads like these. I'm a DO but I'm not one of those pro-AOA, osteopath 'til I die kind of guys. I'm not going to add to some of the flaming posts above this but I don't think I'm a minority in my perspective. I went to a DO school which as a career perspective was probably less than ideal from what I planned for myself at the beginning of undergrad. Still, I think I got a great education (clinical and otherwise). I never really felt like I had to discount for my degree in my specialty decision and I didn't feel like it was a limitation for me in the matching process. Could I have gotten more interviews at more prestigious places if I had went to an allopathic school? Probably. I had enough interviews to feel like I could cancel some without jeopardizing my likelihood of matching so it's not anything I'm particularly bitter about.

Point being, I think this thread captures an ugly segment of the DO community. There are some guys out there that would literally castrate themselves if they were forced to relinquish the DO title. There are others that would give up their first born to be in an MD. If seeing this subgroup of people admire your letters makes you want to jerk yourself off, then that's great you've found a source of satisfaction but I really do think it's superficial, egotistical and immature enough to warrant some personal introspection (certainly nothing anyone says on SDN is going to show you how juvenile the mentality is). I think both groups are at the end of the extreme and there are more people in the subgroup that I'm trying to speak for (I'm sure people will disagree, but chances are that as a DO, I spend more time with the DO community relative to most MD students). Yeah, I'm a DO. I don't think I'm hot stuff, but I'm not embarrassed by my degree either. I certainly don't feel automatically inferior to anyone just because they have two different letters after their name. I went to school to get a DO degree and I really could care less about trying to change the letters. There are so many better subjects of discussion or issues requiring advocacy that this degree issue is a low-yield investment of time and effort, IMO.

 

[NeuroLAX]

.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

This thread, again?

 

[Wordead]

Funny how people have this attitude even when they are in an MD school in say Texas. Got in with an MCAT score of 25 but will be willing to call a DO student that got in with 31 in California lazy.

What is this I don't even

 

[DrEnderW]

What is this I don't even

What is so confusing? I think he's simply stating the stats for the top percentage of DO students and bottom half of MD students are similar.

 

[Wordead]

What is so confusing? I think he's simply stating the stats for the top percentage of DO students and bottom half of MD students are similar.

I'm saying who gives a f? Only pre-meds care about MCAT scores at this point.

 

[jw3600]

I'm saying who gives a f? Only pre-meds care about MCAT scores at this point.

Often MCAT scores (and grades) are the only reason someone would go DO. He is saying that if you believe being a MD vs. DO alone is an important distinction, than the factors that determined how you ended up there are still kind of relevant.

 

[Wordead]

Often MCAT scores (and grades) are the only reason someone would go DO. He is saying that if you believe being a MD vs. DO alone is an important distinction, than the factors that determined how you ended up there are still kind of relevant.

When you are awarded your degree it's 4 years down the pike; MCAT is completely irrelevant. With that logic we should look at SATs because that determined what undergrad you went to which led to your DO/MD school. The only salient points here are what you learned in medical school if we're talking degrees.

 

[DrEnderW]

When you are awarded your degree it's 4 years down the pike; MCAT is completely irrelevant. With that logic we should look at SATs because that determined what undergrad you went to which led to your DO/MD school. The only salient points here are what you learned in medical school if we're talking degrees.

Ahh, I apologize. I actually agree with what you're saying.

 

[jw3600]

When you are awarded your degree it's 4 years down the pike; MCAT is completely irrelevant. With that logic we should look at SATs because that determined what undergrad you went to which led to your DO/MD school. The only salient points here are what you learned in medical school if we're talking degrees.

Isn't what you learn in medical school the same for MD and DO schools (if both take the USMLE)?

The only reason to go MD is for the observed difference in competitiveness for residency (in most cases).

 

[JP2740]

Isn't what you learn in medical school the same for MD and DO schools (if both take the USMLE)?

The only reason to go MD is for the observed difference in competitiveness for residency (in most cases).

If rotations count as training, then it is not equivalent... at least if my friends are to be believed

 

[jw3600]

If rotations count as training, then it is not equivalent... at least if my friends are to be believed

Good point. Is it pretty accepted that most DOs schools have inferior rotations or does this not apply to the older, more established ones?

 

[rocketbooster]

If rotations count as training, then it is not equivalent... at least if my friends are to be believed

You don't know a thing about rotations so hush. In all rotations you're wasting time doing nothing during the half the time you're there. Med student rotations period are a joke many times. You might be there for 10 hours but you're only truly gaining something for 5-6 hrs. The only main difference for DOs is that they have to find their own rotations and move around constantly. The caliber of rotations themselves are similar. Occasionally you'll even have a few DOs on your rotation.

Everyone considers you a lolely med student and at the bottom of the todumpole regardless if you're MD or DO. Fact.