MD vs. DO thread-- Final Resting Place

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who is 'you'? It's not like anyone here is opening up a DO school.
Define 'lower tier' MD school. This would seem rather subjective to me.
 
MacGyver said:
If you guys wnat to keep DO discrimination at a minimum, then you need to wise the **** up and stop building dozens of new DO programs.

I mean seriously WTF is that going to do, other than worsen the current physician glut and FORCE residency slots to discriminate against you guys?

Keeping the # of med schools constant with a low proportion being DO programs means that DO folks can basically pass as equivalents tso MDs and get lost in the crowd.

Dozens of new MD and DO programs = huge oversupply which will inevitably lead to degree discrimination. Its the same reason why Harvard Law grads can work wherever they want but third tier trash schools can barely get their grads a job.

You want to see real DO discrimination, keep up this nonsense with building new DO programs every year. Trust me you guys will not like hte outcome of an oversupplied market because DOs will inevitably get the short end of the stick. Hell, even the lower tier MD programs will start to have problems.
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I don't think the logic here works. So we have to stay being the small minority in order to not be discriminated against?? Harvard law grads can work where they want because it's Harvard and the history of the school, not just because there are less Harvard grads out there. And even so that plays more of a role getting a law job as they will care about where you went to school, as opposed to getting into a residency and later finding a job as a physician.

Besides the topic of the for-profit school (not getting into that here), have some more DO schools is ultimately going to get more DOs out in the field and help raise the awareness of the degree.
 
i agree with nlax. I think one of the reasons why DO schools are not as competitive as MD schools is because there are so few of them. I believe that by adding more DO schools will make the DO degree more competitve. Just look at CCOM PCOM MSUCOM and UMDNJ this year. These schools are almost as competitive as MD schools because there are more DO schools out there that can pick up the slack for the more non-trads. (when i say not trad i mean mcat's under 24 and gpa under 3.3) These newer "lower tier" DO schools also create seperation between the current DO schools which is also good. By creating seperation, people will be able to recognize certain DO schools much the same way people recognize MD schools (such as Harvard vs Tulane) Tulane is nowhere near as good as Harvard, but the bottom line is that both schools are producing qualified physicans and that is what this world needs.
 
24/ 3.3 is below the average. I consider it non trad.
 
MacGyver said:
If you guys wnat to keep DO discrimination at a minimum, then you need to wise the **** up and stop building dozens of new DO programs.
Click to expand...

Wow... I didn't know I had that much say in creating new DO schools!

In that case - DO schools for everyone!!!! And tuition 1/2 off the day after Thanksgiving!!!! Hurry, it won't last but just in time for Xmas!!!!!
 
hey megboo, i hope that hand is not where i think it is.
 
Tom Brady said:
24/ 3.3 is below the average. I consider it non trad.
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It's not non-traditional if someone right out of undergrad has those stats.

I think you might be confused as to what schools consider non-traditional.

Non-trad: applying to medical school after significant time off from an undergraduate degree or older student returning to undergraduate degree. Many consider 25 the lower-end of the non-trad age spectrum. Most time off includes career-changers, stay-at-home parents, those who never went to college right out of HS and are now going back, etc.

You can visit the non-trad forum here on SDN and get a feel for what non-trad means.
 
megboo said:
It's not non-traditional if someone right out of undergrad has those stats.

I think you might be confused as to what schools consider non-traditional.

Non-trad: applying to medical school after significant time off from an undergraduate degree or older student returning to undergraduate degree. Many consider 25 the lower-end of the non-trad age spectrum. Most time off includes career-changers, stay-at-home parents, those who never went to college right out of HS and are now going back, etc. I had no intention of insulting the older applicants that have average or above average scores.

You can visit the non-trad forum here on SDN and get a feel for what non-trad means.
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thats funny, i looked up "non trad" in the dictionary and i couldnt seem to find it? When i said not trad i used it in a context of someone that does not fit the statistics of an average applicant regardless of whether they are 22 or 32. I had no intention of insulting the "older applicants" who have average or above average scores.
 
The real MacGyver could build a fully-functional DO school out of a bed sheet, an old wheelchair, and a bike chain.
 
Tom Brady said:
thats funny, i looked up "non trad" in the dictionary and i couldnt seem to find it? When i said not trad i used it in a context of someone that does not fit the statistics of an average applicant regardless of whether they are 22 or 32
Click to expand...

Traditional vs. non-traditional is just descriptive of age/experiences.

There are traditional and non-traditional applicants that do well or not so well on the MCAT. The MCAT doesn't define traditional/non-traditional.

Maybe someone else can explain it better.
 
megboo said:
and gum
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Oh yeah...none of MacGuyver's contraptions were complete without gum. :meanie:

Wirgley's Spearment!!! For easy demolision at later date.
 
You guys still dont get it. The only reason Harvard Law grads have such a leg up over other grads is because there are about a billion law schools around.

If you cut the # of law schools by 75%, then the chasm between HLS and other grads is wiped out overnight and you would have a similar situation to medicine where Harvard Med grads are not all that different from STateU grads in terms of career opps. The current state of affairs is that a grad from StateU has about the same opportunity to get into neurosurgery as a Harvard grad. That will change if we (both MD and DOs) keep building new med schools.

You guys know that residency slots are fixed right? More schools = more competition for residency = DO discrimination. Its as simple as that.

So go ahead and keep pumping out DO schools. You'll be very sorry in the long term. I wonder what Touros match list is goin to look like in 10 years, they will probably be forced to put 90% of their match into primary care because they wont be competitive for the specialty residency programs.
 
Megboo

hmm There's something eye catching to that avatar of yours :laugh:

BTW

More schools = more competition for residency = FMG/IMG discrimination

Have you seen how the GME cake is divided? FMG/IMGs take like 16K GME spots per year while DOs only take about 2K allopathic GME spots.
 
Who exactly are you chastising? The people here, for the most part, are not in control of the osteopathic medical profession.

Even if I agreed with your assessment, which I only do in part btw, it wouldn't matter. All of us are years away from having a position to make any sort of change... after all of these schools ahve been filled. I chose not to apply to the new schools. Many of my colleagues were not as careful... either that or they didn't have the stats. At any rate, it doesn't matter seeing as though they will be your practicing equal in a few years.

PS, what IS DO discrimination? Let me be clear about this... in most instances, it's a figment of your imagination.

MacGyver said:
If you guys wnat to keep DO discrimination at a minimum, then you need to wise the **** up and stop building dozens of new DO programs.

I mean seriously WTF is that going to do, other than worsen the current physician glut and FORCE residency slots to discriminate against you guys?

Keeping the # of med schools constant with a low proportion being DO programs means that DO folks can basically pass as equivalents tso MDs and get lost in the crowd.

Dozens of new MD and DO programs = huge oversupply which will inevitably lead to degree discrimination. Its the same reason why Harvard Law grads can work wherever they want but third tier trash schools can barely get their grads a job.

You want to see real DO discrimination, keep up this nonsense with building new DO programs every year. Trust me you guys will not like hte outcome of an oversupplied market because DOs will inevitably get the short end of the stick. Hell, even the lower tier MD programs will start to have problems.
Click to expand...
 
MacGyver said:
You guys know that residency slots are fixed right? More schools = more competition for residency = DO discrimination. Its as simple as that.
Click to expand...

It's really not, actually. To be honest, it will be painful but federal funding of new residency programs will begin again in the near future. It would be alarmist to predict that this wouldn't occur sometime within the next decade. It just hasn't been a concern as of yet. Right now, the primary political concern is universal healthcare.
 
medhacker said:
Megboo

hmm There's something eye catching to that avatar of yours :laugh:

BTW

More schools = more competition for residency = FMG/IMG discrimination

Have you seen how the GME cake is divided? FMG/IMGs take like 16K GME spots per year while DOs only take about 2K allopathic GME spots.
Click to expand...

Lawl - I think that's one of my favorite pics.

We're actually just draining a cooler of water (ice melted 🙁) before the SIU football game and acting silly.
 
nlax30 said:
I don't think the logic here works. So we have to stay being the small minority in order to not be discriminated against?? Harvard law grads can work where they want because it's Harvard and the history of the school, not just because there are less Harvard grads out there. And even so that plays more of a role getting a law job as they will care about where you went to school, as opposed to getting into a residency and later finding a job as a physician.

Besides the topic of the for-profit school (not getting into that here), have some more DO schools is ultimately going to get more DOs out in the field and help raise the awareness of the degree.
Click to expand...

Hopefully when there's a new surge of DOs, they are competent for the most part. That is what your assumption is based upon, and although I question new schools like RVU, I would assume that COCA has strict enough regulations that these will be well-trained, competent physicians in practice.

In places where DOs have been established for a long time, there will be no issue. For instance, in Philly there is little-to-no DO discrimination... the same probably goes for other areas with longstanding DO programs.

The cause of concern will be areas like Las Vegas and Colorado where people's first experience with a DO may be out of one of these new institutions... Time will tell.
 
MacGyver said:
You guys still dont get it. The only reason Harvard Law grads have such a leg up over other grads is because there are about a billion law schools around.

If you cut the # of law schools by 75%, then the chasm between HLS and other grads is wiped out overnight and you would have a similar situation to medicine where Harvard Med grads are not all that different from STateU grads in terms of career opps. The current state of affairs is that a grad from StateU has about the same opportunity to get into neurosurgery as a Harvard grad. That will change if we (both MD and DOs) keep building new med schools.

You guys know that residency slots are fixed right? More schools = more competition for residency = DO discrimination. Its as simple as that.

So go ahead and keep pumping out DO schools. You'll be very sorry in the long term. I wonder what Touros match list is goin to look like in 10 years, they will probably be forced to put 90% of their match into primary care because they wont be competitive for the specialty residency programs.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why people are bashing you. You are 98% correct in your thinking. Most DO students are AGAINST new schools opening left and right with branch campuses all over the place. That alone isn't a tragically terrible thing, but the killer is the fact that no new osteopathic residencies are opening with these schools.

Your thinking is flawed in that everyone wants to go into a specialty residency.
 
J1515 said:
I'm not sure why people are bashing you. You are 98% correct in your thinking. Most DO students are AGAINST new schools opening left and right with branch campuses all over the place. That alone isn't a tragically terrible thing, but the killer is the fact that no new osteopathic residencies are opening with these schools.

Your thinking is flawed in that everyone wants to go into a specialty residency.
Click to expand...

I think people are bashing him because the posts seem accusatory of us either being directly responsible for expansion, or being in support of it. Neither of which is true.
 
J1515 said:
... but the killer is the fact that no new osteopathic residencies are opening with these schools...
Click to expand...

That's one of the biggest myths on SDN because it simply isn't true. In 1997 there were 2426 first-year osteopathic graduate medical programs. By 2006 there were 2808-- a 15% increase. No, that's not enough, but it's far from none.

Keep in mind too that in 1997 the states of Alaska, Kentucky, Louisiana, Minnesota, Mississppi, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, South Carolina, Washington and Wyoming had ZERO osteopathic residencies. They ALL have them now.
 
scpod- you rule
 
First of all, let it be known that I am not trying to prove a point on a MD vs. DO war. I am just giving some true accounts in regards to the DO degree in order to hopefully encourage someone out there to pursue a DO degree who might be holding back due to some of the negative things being said about DOs on SDN.

The other day my mother went to an optometrist and the optometrist asked her if she had kids in school. My mom said yes and that her son (me) was accepted to medical school and was going to be a DO. Immediately the optometrist said "I think thats fantastic, I go to DO physicians for a number of reasons, and I encourage my family to make an appointment with one whenever they need a doctor. I have a lot of respect for the DO physician. "

Also the other day a family friend who is an MD working in the academic side of medicine knew I was pre-med and asked how I was doing in my medical pursuit. Once again my mother told her that I was accepted to KCUMB, and the MD said "wow, thats a great school. " Finally my mom said that I got an interview at an MD program and turned it down because I was happy with my acceptances and that I felt I would (my personal feelings) be a better physician by getting a DO degree. The MD responded by saying "good for him! I absolutely believe in that."

Just some true accounts on the positives for DO that I have heard "in the real world"
 
DiverDoc said:
First of all, let it be known that I am not trying to prove a point on a MD vs. DO war. I am just giving some true accounts in regards to the DO degree in order to hopefully encourage someone out there to pursue a DO degree who might be holding back due to some of the negative things being said about DOs on SDN.

The other day my mother went to an optometrist and the optometrist asked her if she had kids in school. My mom said yes and that her son (me) was accepted to medical school and was going to be a DO. Immediately the optometrist said "I think thats fantastic, I go to DO physicians for a number of reasons, and I encourage my family to make an appointment with one whenever they need a doctor. I have a lot of respect for the DO physician. "

Also the other day a family friend who is an MD working in the academic side of medicine knew I was pre-med and asked how I was doing in my medical pursuit. Once again my mother told her that I was accepted to KCUMB, and the MD said "wow, thats a great school. " Finally my mom said that I got an interview at an MD program and turned it down because I was happy with my acceptances and that I felt I would (my personal feelings) be a better physician by getting a DO degree. The MD responded by saying "good for him! I absolutely believe in that."

Just some true accounts on the positives for DO that I have heard "in the real world"
Click to expand...

That's all very sweet and nice, but take it from someone who's been through the whole process...It matters not how one gets into medical school, what medical school one attends, what sort of pre-conceived notions some may have, etc etc. The only thing that matters is the content of one's character as a physician and the skill of the physician, regardless of the letters behind the name. For every anecdote I've heard about how wonderful one DO is, I've heard just as many about the need to stay away from them. The same goes for the MD's out there. The most caring, "holistic" and talented doctors I've known are MD's. On the other hand, some just plain suck in every way. Most are somewhere in between (whether MD or DO).

If you're an intelligent physician who makes patient care a priority and commands respect with your clinical and/or surgical skill, you'll get it no matter what. If you're a poor clinical who can't think critically and thoughtfully about patients, you'll gain a poor reputation in a fairly short amount of time. End of story.
 
DiverDoc said:
First of all, let it be known that I am not trying to prove a point on a MD vs. DO war. I am just giving some true accounts in regards to the DO degree in order to hopefully encourage someone out there to pursue a DO degree who might be holding back due to some of the negative things being said about DOs on SDN.

The other day my mother went to an optometrist and the optometrist asked her if she had kids in school. My mom said yes and that her son (me) was accepted to medical school and was going to be a DO. Immediately the optometrist said "I think thats fantastic, I go to DO physicians for a number of reasons, and I encourage my family to make an appointment with one whenever they need a doctor. I have a lot of respect for the DO physician. "

Also the other day a family friend who is an MD working in the academic side of medicine knew I was pre-med and asked how I was doing in my medical pursuit. Once again my mother told her that I was accepted to KCUMB, and the MD said "wow, thats a great school. " Finally my mom said that I got an interview at an MD program and turned it down because I was happy with my acceptances and that I felt I would (my personal feelings) be a better physician by getting a DO degree. The MD responded by saying "good for him! I absolutely believe in that."

Just some true accounts on the positives for DO that I have heard "in the real world"
Click to expand...

My brother in law's family physician is a DO. she is the best doctor he has ever seen in his life 👍
(ofcourse there are fantastic MDs, but it is also true that there are fantastic DOs)

My mentor who is an MD recommended that I go to DO schools that are in the midwestern united states. Especially Kcumb or kcom, because they churn out very good doctors. 👍
 
VALSALVA said:
If you're an intelligent physician who makes patient care a priority and commands respect with your clinical and/or surgical skill, you'll get it no matter what.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. thank you for saying that, it helps when we hear something like this from someonne in the field. 👍
 
I know great MD's and crappy DO's. Vice versa as well. At the end of the day, it's all about who you are as a person. One of the things I personally like about DO schools is that they say they are more interested in you as a person. Which is the thing I wanted before I started this track. I don't want myself to be defined by my profession, I want my profession to be an extension of who I am. Thus why I believe D.O. is for ME.
 
.
 
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DiverDoc said:
First of all, let it be known that I am not trying to prove a point on a MD vs. DO war. I am just giving some true accounts in regards to the DO degree in order to hopefully encourage someone out there to pursue a DO degree who might be holding back due to some of the negative things being said about DOs on SDN.

The other day my mother went to an optometrist and the optometrist asked her if she had kids in school. My mom said yes and that her son (me) was accepted to medical school and was going to be a DO. Immediately the optometrist said "I think thats fantastic, I go to DO physicians for a number of reasons, and I encourage my family to make an appointment with one whenever they need a doctor. I have a lot of respect for the DO physician. "

Also the other day a family friend who is an MD working in the academic side of medicine knew I was pre-med and asked how I was doing in my medical pursuit. Once again my mother told her that I was accepted to KCUMB, and the MD said "wow, thats a great school. " Finally my mom said that I got an interview at an MD program and turned it down because I was happy with my acceptances and that I felt I would (my personal feelings) be a better physician by getting a DO degree. The MD responded by saying "good for him! I absolutely believe in that."

Just some true accounts on the positives for DO that I have heard "in the real world"
Click to expand...

The DO stigma is just a bunch of garbage. In reality, nobody really gives too much thought to DO or MD, except for a select group of over-hyped pre-meds.

At the risk of soundling like a weirdo, all that matters is what is important to you. Nobody keeps score except for losers.

Keep your own score.
 
DiverDoc said:
First of all, let it be known that I am not trying to prove a point on a MD vs. DO war. I am just giving some true accounts in regards to the DO degree in order to hopefully encourage someone out there to pursue a DO degree who might be holding back due to some of the negative things being said about DOs on SDN.

The other day my mother went to an optometrist and the optometrist asked her if she had kids in school. My mom said yes and that her son (me) was accepted to medical school and was going to be a DO. Immediately the optometrist said "I think thats fantastic, I go to DO physicians for a number of reasons, and I encourage my family to make an appointment with one whenever they need a doctor. I have a lot of respect for the DO physician. "

Also the other day a family friend who is an MD working in the academic side of medicine knew I was pre-med and asked how I was doing in my medical pursuit. Once again my mother told her that I was accepted to KCUMB, and the MD said "wow, thats a great school. " Finally my mom said that I got an interview at an MD program and turned it down because I was happy with my acceptances and that I felt I would (my personal feelings) be a better physician by getting a DO degree. The MD responded by saying "good for him! I absolutely believe in that."

Just some true accounts on the positives for DO that I have heard "in the real world"
Click to expand...

This is silly.

As was previously stated, the MD was probably being polite. And your mom sounds insecure. As far as I know, MD applicant's mothers don't brag about turning down DO interviews to attend an MD school. And if they did, they'd just sound like elitist jerks...especially if they did it right to a DO's face.

The most reasonable, fair-minded, and friendly individuals believe MD=DO and encourage you to follow your own needs and best opportunities without passing judgement MD>DO or DO>MD.

DO's are not better than MD's. MD's are not better than DO's. You will have some opportunities and a profile of medical education strengths going to MD school compared to a DO school. You will have some opportunities and a profile of medical education strengths going to DO school compared to a MD school. It's your job to figure out which are important to you and pursue the school that fits that best. If the point of your post was to artificially and anecdotally manipulate the superficial mindset of potential DO applicants, mission accomplished. If the point of your post was to provide fair and accurate characterization of public perception of DO's, you fell way short of the mark, my friend.
 
superfan56 said:
I know great MD's and crappy DO's. Vice versa as well. At the end of the day, it's all about who you are as a person. One of the things I personally like about DO schools is that they say they are more interested in you as a person. Which is the thing I wanted before I started this track. I don't want myself to be defined by my profession, I want my profession to be an extension of who I am. Thus why I believe D.O. is for ME.
Click to expand...

No! It's not all about who you are as a person!!! That's only half of it. Having an amazing personality but being a horrible clinician does no service to your patients. A complete physician has a good bedside manner AND an even better clinical mind (or a great pair of hands if you're a surgeon). All the pre-meds out there (especially the pre-DO's) shouldn't lose sight of this.
 
VALSALVA said:
No! It's not all about who you are as a person!!! That's only half of it. Having an amazing personality but being a horrible clinician does no service to your patients. A complete physician has a good bedside manner AND an even better clinical mind (or a great pair of hands if you're a surgeon). All the pre-meds out there (especially the pre-DO's) shouldn't lose sight of this.
Click to expand...


personally, i thought that was a given...

We're trained to become physicians, NOT human beings.
 
i like this thread
i like what im hearing here
nice job guys
 
I'd love to go to KCUMB, but it's a bit pricey at 33k a semester🙁.

Ah the hell with it, I'll just gouge my patients to pay for it. Yay capitalism.😀
 
Yourmother said:
The DO stigma is just a bunch of garbage. In reality, nobody really gives too much thought to DO or MD, except for a select group of over-hyped pre-meds.
Click to expand...

How do you know that? Have you worked as a physician? Have you talked to other physician as a physician? One of my closest friend who works at HOAG hospital in Newport Beach California as a MD told me that his chief MD stated specifically that they'll never hire a DO in his department. Throughout his career he's met several MDs of high positions in hospitals state that. You don't think that'll affect you as a DO if you ever wanted to work at hospitals which had MDs with such opinions, whether it be fair or unfair?

The DO I shadowed stated that there are issues at times because she's a DO.

So, no one really cares, eh?
 
Those instances are pretty few and far-between. My uncle, who is a microbiologist at Stanford's medical school is one of the people who is pushing me to DO school. His buddy, who is an oncologist MD/PhD (educated at Stanford, former professor at UPenn medical school, currently doing biotech/pharm stuff) also suggested the DO route, at a time when I didn't even know what a DO was. He also told me that he thought PCOM was every bit as good as UPenn when it came to educating physicians. That's pretty high praise coming from someone who would know.

I will identify the few programs who won't hire a DO and stay clear of them. I'm really not worried.
 
ocwaveoc said:
How do you know that? Have you worked as a physician? Have you talked to other physician as a physician? One of my closest friend who works at HOAG hospital in Newport Beach California as a MD told me that his chief MD stated specifically that they'll never hire a DO in his department. Throughout his career he's met several MDs of high positions in hospitals state that. You don't think that'll affect you as a DO if you ever wanted to work at hospitals which had MDs with such opinions, whether it be fair or unfair?

The DO I shadowed stated that there are issues at times because she's a DO.

So, no one really cares, eh?
Click to expand...

I heard the same thing from my cousin who is an MD out there...
 
superfan56 said:
I'm not so into the MD vs DO, but if you know the history of DO and don't think any discrimination occurs today would be a bit naive
Click to expand...

People discriminate against you because of your skin color, eye color, hair color, religious affiliation, lack of religious affiliation, age, name, location, the type of car you drive, underarm deodorant you wear, style of clothing, type of shoes, clarity of speech, town where you were born, whether your toliet paper unrolls from the top or bottom and, yes, sometimes because you are a DO.

The difference with me is that I really don't care what others think. What they say can't hurt me. The question should be are you secure enough to say that too?
 
Seriously, the discrimination you face as a DO might be enough to hurt your feelings, but it won't affect your life or your career. You're not going to come home and find a burning cross in your yard.
 
TexasTriathlete said:
Seriously, the discrimination you face as a DO might be enough to hurt your feelings, but it won't affect your life or your career. You're not going to come home and find a burning cross in your yard.
Click to expand...

just a burning caduceus
 
ocwaveoc said:
How do you know that? Have you worked as a physician? Have you talked to other physician as a physician? One of my closest friend who works at HOAG hospital in Newport Beach California as a MD told me that his chief MD stated specifically that they'll never hire a DO in his department. Throughout his career he's met several MDs of high positions in hospitals state that. You don't think that'll affect you as a DO if you ever wanted to work at hospitals which had MDs with such opinions, whether it be fair or unfair?

The DO I shadowed stated that there are issues at times because she's a DO.

So, no one really cares, eh?
Click to expand...

The chief of the dept I shadowed as a pre-med told me he doesn't care if the doctor he hires is a DO or MD and the best doctors in his department are DOs. So who is right? Me or you?

When are you pre-meds going to stop giving out advice based on what you've heard?
 
J1515 said:
The chief of the dept I shadowed as a pre-med told me he doesn't care if the doctor he hires is a DO or MD and the best doctors in his department are DOs. So who is right? Me or you?
Click to expand...

Him. DO discrimination is not universal, but it does exist.
 
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