MD vs DO vs Caribbean. Hard Facts and Statistics

[HockeyDr09]

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http://aucmed.edu/pdf/residency-process/ResidencyReport.pdf

This was posted on ValueMD, sort of like a Caribbean SDN for those who may not be familiar. I figured I would post it here just to get some info out there, and show some data for some of the things I have referred to before in previous posts. Read through it, kick it around, etc. Since some of the DO students on here have been cool enough to post everything they have available, I thought I should do the same. If you have a question, I will try to answer it, and either verify what you think, or clarify a rumor you may have heard. Thanks!

Thanks for the data, i'll add it to the first page.

First, you brought us the Underdog Thread. Now, you come to us with this incredible spreadsheet. I'm putting your name in the hat for AOA President in 4 years.

Thanks for the encouragement. It may not be in 4 years, but I want to get involved with the AOA and try my hand at making a difference. I'm not happy with the "old schoolness" sentiment, and the fact that schools are popping up everywhere without a significant increase in residency placements. I'm sure it's difficult for the AOA to increase residency slots, but opening a flood of schools doesn't seem to be the best idea to me.

I am just want to make sure that I am interpreting this correct.

The data shows that it really doesn't matter whether you go to DO or MD school?

If so, are all the DO school in the states pretty much all good like MD schools are? I mean, MD schools are pretty much all great in the states from what I hear, but is that the case for DO school as well? or is there DO school that are considered as bad?

Thanks

I don't know anything about DO school....

Personally, I wouldn't say it doesn't matter whether or not you attend a DO or MD school. In my opinion the data does show that the two pathways are far closer than many people would like to believe, and that either way, you can get into any specialty you want if you dominate. With that said, if you wanted to pursue research, I think there are a large number of MD schools that out perform their DO counterparts in regards to research funding and opportunities. Not to say you can't do research at a DO school, it just seems MD is the way to go for that area. I have NO interest in research (put my time in during undergrad and that was enough) so this doesn't particularly bother me.

As for the quality of residencies when comparing MD (NRMP) and DO (AOA), I can't say for sure. I've heard (from the residency section of the forum) that some of the DO residencies are in smaller hospitals and they don't have as high of a patient load, and lack the diversity of cases when compared to a Level I trauma center. Obviously there are a ton a MD residencies at smaller hospitals, but this still concerns me.

I think even if you allowed it, it would be very rare to see. It would only be relevant to MD students in the few hundred spots of really competitive speialties like ortho, derm, rads, and even then I doubt too many MD kids would want to take the comlex and do 300 additional hours of OMT, just to have a barely greater chance of matching into their desired field. Seems like too much work, even for your typical gunner. Also, fields like derm require an intern year before you can even apply in the DO world, making it even more unlikely an MD grad would take the risk of applying AOA.

Plus, it's likely the AOA would very much discrminate against MDs in the ultra-competitive fields, in the same ways that MD ortho and MD derm discriminate against DO

I was thinking the same thing, I can't see too many MD students taking the COMLEX and a few hundred hours of OMM. I wondered if MD students applying to DO residencies would be enough to merge the COMLEX with the USLME but I just can't see it happening because of OMM. MD students wouldn't want it on the exam and the AOA most certainly would. I'm not sure what DO students (give me some time wooo) think. It seems that a majority doesn't want cranial on there, I can gather that much.

 

[patel2]

I was thinking the same thing, I can't see too many MD students taking the COMLEX and a few hundred hours of OMM. I wondered if MD students applying to DO residencies would be enough to merge the COMLEX with the USLME but I just can't see it happening because of OMM. MD students wouldn't want it on the exam and the AOA most certainly would. I'm not sure what DO students (give me some time wooo) think. It seems that a majority doesn't want cranial on there, I can gather that much.

It's my understanding that the AMA's historical position (post 60s) has been supportive of merging DOs as a degree with MDs and having a unified system for all residency slots. I would venture to say that a majority of DO students would theoretically support this.

It's the DO leadership, for better or for worse, that prides itself on that distinctiveness, and so any change in the comlex, OMM/cranial in curriculums, degree titles or residency structure is not happening.

 

[DocEspana]

It's my understanding that the AMA's historical position (post 60s) has been supportive of merging DOs as a degree with MDs and having a unified system for all residency slots. I would venture to say that a majority of DO students would theoretically support this.

It's the DO leadership, for better or for worse, that prides itself on that distinctiveness, and so any change in the comlex, OMM/cranial in curriculums, degree titles or residency structure is not happening.

May I introduce you to a caricature of the entire AOA leadership's position on this (and the average appearance of their leadership)

friggen old coots

 

[Bostonredsox]

May I introduce you to a caricature of the entire AOA leadership's position on this (and the average appearance of their leadership)

friggen old coots

literally LOL'd. love it.

 

[DoctwoB]

It's my understanding that the AMA's historical position (post 60s) has been supportive of merging DOs as a degree with MDs and having a unified system for all residency slots. I would venture to say that a majority of DO students would theoretically support this.

It's the DO leadership, for better or for worse, that prides itself on that distinctiveness, and so any change in the comlex, OMM/cranial in curriculums, degree titles or residency structure is not happening.

Merging of the MD and DO degrees would probably also have to involve DO schools undergoing LCME accreditation. While I'm sure most established DO schools would do fine with only minor/no changes, I bet some of the newer schools would have some trouble (especially the for profit one, which I believe violates LCME principles). Not that the new DO schools are bad, but LCME really requires that you have all your ducks in a row before the first student enters the school (which ensures MD school quality, but also makes them extremely slow at opening new schools in response to need). On the whole though i agree that there is no need for two completely separate physician degrees and two separate residency systems.

 

[megathunder]

literally LOL'd. love it.

Hahaha me too, that was great.

 

[DocEspana]

Merging of the MD and DO degrees would probably also have to involve DO schools undergoing LCME accreditation. While I'm sure most established DO schools would do fine with only minor/no changes, I bet some of the newer schools would have some trouble (especially the for profit one, which I believe violates LCME principles). Not that the new DO schools are bad, but LCME really requires that you have all your ducks in a row before the first student enters the school (which ensures MD school quality, but also makes them extremely slow at opening new schools in response to need). On the whole though i agree that there is no need for two completely separate physician degrees and two separate residency systems.

Rocky Vista U.

and it absolutely does violate LCME principles. I wont argue its a "vital" one, but its one that the LCME would never allow because current LCME education is based on the flexner report, which basically said for-profit education is the basis of all evil (and education should be standardized)

 

[patel2]

Rocky Vista U.

and it absolutely does violate LCME principles. I wont argue its a "vital" one, but its one that the LCME would never allow because current LCME education is based on the flexner report, which basically said for-profit education is the basis of all evil (and education should be standardized)

True, but the "principles" aren't necessarily the rules. The principle is only that medical education "should be non-profit," not must be. It's my understanding that Palm Beach Medical College in FL is trying to get LCME accreditation as a for-profit institution, and that they just may skirt around the principle. We'll see how that works out for them.

Palm Beach Medical College is our investor financed, private allopathic medical school, currently in development, and is the platform of our medical education programs.



Our medical educational programs are designed based on the accreditation standards of the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME), the nationally recognized accrediting authority for programs leading to the M.D. degree in the U.S. and Canada. These standards are used to ensure general professional competencies that are appropriate for entry to the next stage of medical training and as the foundation for life-long learning and proficient medical care.

 

[Lokhtar]

I'd bet you anything that Palm Beach Medical College doesn't get anywhere.

 

[Kevin Baker]

I was hitting on someone tonight and, thanks to your excel data, I got my first real life poker face moment. Awesome job on the data.
(For anyone not wanting to reference the data, there were 0 IMG derm and 3 IMG ortho, and 2 DO derm and 3 DO ortho for PGY1 and 1 IMG and 0 DO for PGY2)

 

[Gavanshir]

I was hitting on someone tonight and, thanks to your excel data, I got my first real life poker face moment. Awesome job on the data.
(For anyone not wanting to reference the data, there were 0 IMG derm and 3 IMG ortho, and 2 DO derm and 3 DO ortho for PGY1 and 1 IMG and 0 DO for PGY2)

No wonder you're single.

 

[Kevin Baker]

No wonder you're single.

Take a chill pill brosef. If you can't find the humor in learning about some premed gunning for ortho or derm, and then later finding she is going to SGU, then I feel sorry for you bro. Laugh a little! Set up, punchline, awkward!

 

[Gavanshir]

Take a chill pill brosef. If you can't find the humor in learning about some premed gunning for ortho or derm, and then later finding she is going to SGU, then I feel sorry for you bro. Laugh a little! Set up, punchline, awkward!

haha, it's not funny when you're the butt of the joke, is it?

How about laughing at jokes that don't ridicule people's goals, desires or chosen paths in life, then I'd laugh with you.

 

[Kevin Baker]

haha, it's not funny when you're the butt of the joke, is it?

How about laughing at jokes that don't ridicule people's goals, desires or chosen paths in life, then I'd laugh with you.

You must be the life of the party. I'm singing a Kumbaya rendition later. Maybe we can join hands and sing together in harmony. Oh wait. Kumbaya references a God or Lord, therefore it mocks an atheists chosen path in life. Gosh darn this politically correct world!

 

[Longshanks]

haha, it's not funny when you're the butt of the joke, is it?

How about laughing at jokes that don't ridicule people's goals, desires or chosen paths in life, then I'd laugh with you.

 

[TriagePreMed]

You must be the life of the party. I'm singing a Kumbaya rendition later. Maybe we can join hands and sing together in harmony. Oh wait. Kumbaya references a God or Lord, therefore it mocks an atheists chosen path in life. Gosh darn this politically correct world!

Here he is: http://youtu.be/CcyiskNIiBI

 

[Gavanshir]

actually, here i am.

 

[drctother]

Take a chill pill brosef. If you can't find the humor in learning about some premed gunning for ortho or derm, and then later finding she is going to SGU, then I feel sorry for you bro. Laugh a little! Set up, punchline, awkward!

Going to agree with KB here, it was just a joke and I think its ridiculous someone thinks they can walk into Derm or Ortho out of SGU.

Also, KB never met the guy so he wasnt directly shutting down his dreams. The sister is clueless as to the situation anyway and the irony

 

[DocEspana]

haha, it's not funny when you're the butt of the joke, is it?

How about laughing at jokes that don't ridicule people's goals, desires or chosen paths in life, then I'd laugh with you.

The original poster did have a funny little post. But as the rule of the internet is supreme and unavoidable, there will be someone who wants to hate on it.

 

[Gavanshir]

haha I forgot I'm in the osteopathic "we are far superior to the Caribbean MDs" forum.

 

[DocEspana]

haha I forgot I'm in the osteopathic "we are far superior to the Caribbean MDs" forum.

Nah. This case was just because it was funny and you got defensive over it. It wasn't a 'we're laughing at the offshore students' this is 'this girl just said her sibling wants to do something less likely than being born with situs invertus, but if I tell her this she will not be as into me. DECISION TIME!'.

That stuffs funny. Your comment was just... i dont even know, but it took the fun right out of it by getting annoyed by something that was so tangental to the point.

 

[mashmetoo]

haha I forgot I'm in the osteopathic "we are far superior to the Caribbean MDs" forum.

**sighs** Bud, you know what would really help you right now? Studying some more/harder on your USMLE step 1. That's the only way to increase your odds of getting the neurosurgery residency you seem so eager to get into as a SGU grad.

There's absolutely 0 point in arguing with a bunch of DOs on this forum, it's not going to increase your likelihood of getting to a specialty program than is demonstrated by the stats posted here.

Did you even know that the DO degree existed before sailing off to Grenada? (just out of curiosity).

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

haha I forgot I'm in the osteopathic "we are far superior to the Caribbean MDs" forum.

It has nothing to do with this. Now please stop taking things so personally.

 

[DrFraud]

haha I forgot I'm in the osteopathic "we are far superior to the Caribbean MDs" forum.

If the osteopathic students and applicants really felt secure in their decision, there wouldn't be the need for all of this negative retoric.


As far as stats, well they really don't lie. The statistics show that as more and more osteopathic programs open up, and as more and more students enter osteopathic programs, a smaller and smaller percentage of osteopathic students will obtain the type of ACGME residency spots that existed only a few years ago. It used to be above 40%, its now in the mid thiries, and projections show that in 4 years it will be about 25%.

I can only imagine how much more the negative rhetoric is going to be ramped up as a result of this problem.

While on an anonomous forum, this type of derisiveness might be easy, but in an actual hospital, this type of colleague bashing would sink someone faster than the titanic.

 

[HockeyDr09]

If the osteopathic students and applicants really felt secure in their decision, there wouldn't be the need for all of this negative retoric.


As far as stats, well they really don't lie. The statistics show that as more and more osteopathic programs open up, and as more and more students enter osteopathic programs, a smaller and smaller percentage of osteopathic students will obtain the type of ACGME residency spots that existed only a few years ago. It used to be above 40%, its now in the mid thiries, and projections show that in 4 years it will be about 25%.

I can only imagine how much more the negative rhetoric is going to be ramped up as a result of this problem.

Says the Caribbean student who feels the need to continuosly post in osteopathic forums and warp statistics in an attempt to prove that the Caribbean pathway is superior. If there are more and more osteopathic students, then odds are, osteopathic students will also see an increase in ACGME matches as well. Its already been documented that Caribbean schools have been increasing their enrollment significantly as well, why are you not taking this into consideration as well?

All that really matters is the data and how people decide to interpret it. You choose to only care about ACGME matches. You choose to ignore match rates, match locations, match types (which specialties matched), number of students actually participating in the match, the AOA match, attrition rates, dual accredited residencies, and the list continues.

It's probably best to consider all of these factors before making a decision between either pathway.

 

[DrFraud]

Says the Caribbean student who feels the need to continuosly post in osteopathic forums and warp statistics in an attempt to prove that the Caribbean pathway is superior. If there are more and more osteopathic students, then odds are, osteopathic students will also see an increase in ACGME matches as well.

Odds are one thing, but cold hard realities are another. For the past few years, growth in the number of graduates in Osteopathic programs have far outpaced the number of ACGME residency spots for Osteopathic grads. Between about 2005 to the present, only about 100 more ACGME matches increase for the 1000+ or so increase in DO grads.

1300/3000 (2005)
1400/4000+ (current)
1500/5000 + (2015)

This is not a warping of stats. If anything, this the reality of what the future holds in store.

 

[Bostonredsox]

If the osteopathic students and applicants really felt secure in their decision, there wouldn't be the need for all of this negative retoric.


As far as stats, well they really don't lie. The statistics show that as more and more osteopathic programs open up, and as more and more students enter osteopathic programs, a smaller and smaller percentage of osteopathic students will obtain the type of ACGME residency spots that existed only a few years ago. It used to be above 40%, its now in the mid thiries, and projections show that in 4 years it will be about 25%.

I can only imagine how much more the negative rhetoric is going to be ramped up as a result of this problem.

While on an anonomous forum, this type of derisiveness might be easy, but in an actual hospital, this type of colleague bashing would sink someone faster than the titanic.

Even with the increasing numbers of DOs graduating each year, on a one for one basis, they have a significantly better chance of getting a residency spot than you do, whether its ACGME or AOA. I see through reading alot of your posts you feel the ACGME spots are all that matters and you exclusively overlook Hockeys data and judge the DOs on their #s in ACGME spots completely ignoring those who matched at AOA programs, but you will quickly find out that as only 50-60% of US-IMGS match each year in the NRMP, The DO's who get an AOA spot are significantly better off than your spot as a pharm tech at Wal-Mart for the next year as you get ready to reapply. Trust me, the DOs are doing just fine in the match process.

 

[Bostonredsox]

Odds are one thing, but cold hard realities are another. For the past few years, growth in the number of graduates in Osteopathic programs have far outpaced the number of ACGME residency spots for Osteopathic grads. Between about 2005 to the present, only about 100 more ACGME matches per year increase for the 1000+ or so increase in DO grads per year.

1300/3000 (2005)
1400/4000+ (current)
1500/5000 + (2015)

This is not a warping of stats. If anything, this the reality of what the future holds in store.

There was an increase in DO grads of a 1000 last year? Thats news to me, as only a total of 3000 or so of us graduate in the whole country per year. Again, I think your forgetting that their is a vast number of DO residency spots that go unfilled every year. If the ACGME closes down resideny programs, more DOs will simply take AOA spots. They will still be matched. IMGs are the ones who will suffer as a result.

 

[DrFraud]

There was an increase in DO grads of a 1000 last year? Thats news to me, as only a total of 3000 or so of us graduate in the whole country per year.

apparently, you and HockeyDr09 disagree.....

DO Class of 2010 = 4,228 students.

Out of those 4,228,
2,045 students opted for the match.
1,444 students match ACGME.
71% match

The number you want is
1,444 students match
4,228 students existed

34% of DO students matched into the ACGME match for the class of 2010.

1895 matched AOA

45% of DO students matched into the AOA match for the class of 2010.

79% matched outright.
Does not include the scramble.


Personally, I'm more interested in the specialties of the residencies matched (listed in the first post), than the total percentage of DO's who matched ACGME, despite half of the DO's not even applying to ACGME. But here is the data for you nonetheless.

Any pre-medical students reading this thread can decide if they would rather match in ONLY ACGME and exclude themselves from ~2,500 AOA residency spots, or look at the data objectively, and look at BOTH the AOA and ACGME match data.

 

[Bostonredsox]

Fine 4500. I was not disputing the # of DO grads per year, I was disputing the fact that you said there was an increase of 1000 per year. Either way, as their are hundreds of unfilled AOA spots every year the # number of grads is really irrelevant. You on the other hand should spend less time bashing on DO forums and more time studying, as your danger of not matching is astronomically higher than your osteopathic counterparts.

 

[DrFraud]

Even with the increasing numbers of DOs graduating each year, on a one for one basis, they have a significantly better chance of getting a residency spot than you do, whether its ACGME or AOA.

Well I have a residency, and I had no problems finding interviews or programs to rank me. Most of my colleagues who were reasonably civil and academically sound people had very little difficulty securing residencies.

......but you will quickly find out that as only 50-60% of US-IMGS match each year in the NRMP,......

again, Graduates from my program without any serious red flags have well over a 90% chance of matching into an ACGME residency. You are lumping my school in with data from programs that have poorer results.

 

[HockeyDr09]

Odds are one thing, but cold hard realities are another. For the past few years, growth in the number of graduates in Osteopathic programs have far outpaced the number of ACGME residency spots for Osteopathic grads. Between about 2005 to the present, only about 100 more ACGME matches per year increase for the 1000+ or so increase in DO grads per year.

1300/3000 (2005)
1400/4000+ (current)
1500/5000 + (2015)

This is not a warping of stats. If anything, this the reality of what the future holds in store.

Your stats are still wrong. ALL that matters for the ACGME match is that DO's match 70%. Whether it's 1400 or 1500 it's irrelevant. Over those last 5 years DO's have matched at 70%. Caribbean MD's have matched 50%. You really have no argument here, 70%>50%. Honestly, if you actually look at the facts 90%(AOA + ACGME) > 50%. That's a 40% difference, and a 20% difference when only looking at ACGME.



Nice job ignoring the second half of my post. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you accidentally mis-quoted. I'll do you a favor and repost it.

All that really matters is the data and how people decide to interpret it. You choose to only care about ACGME matches. You choose to ignore match rates, match locations, match types (which specialties matched), number of students actually participating in the match, the AOA match, attrition rates, dual accredited residencies, and the list continues.

It's probably best to consider all of these factors before making a decision between either pathway.

Please explain to me why you ignore all of the above factors.


Also, you DO warp statistics. You enjoy posting that only ~35% of DO's get an ACGME residency, refusing to take into account that there are a large portion of DO's who do NOT even participate in the ACGME match, and the fact that there are dually accredited residencies which means that even your warped statistic still isn't even accurate. 70% of osteopathic students who participate in the ACGME match. 90% of osteopathic graduates match (excluding scramble). 50% of Caribbean graduates match. I've even went as far as to post your specific school, AUC, which still had a ~60% match.

 

[DrFraud]

Fine 4500. I was not disputing the # of DO grads per year, I was disputing the fact that you said there was an increase of 1000 per year.

that was an error...I will fix it.

 

[HockeyDr09]

Well I have a residency, and I had no problems finding interviews or programs to rank me. Most of my colleagues who were reasonably civil and academically sound people had very little difficulty securing residencies.




again, Graduates from my program without any serious red flags have well over a 90% chance of matching into an ACGME residency. You are lumping my school in with data from programs that have poorer results.

This is Dr. Frauds argument

As I have said, for those graduates without a red flag from my school, the rate for securing ACGME residency positions is likely over 95-99%. For the entire class, including those with Red flags, the rate of securing ACGME spots is likely > 88%. I dont have anything more concret to give you, this is my best approximation, but this really isn't too far off from the actual number.

Dr. Fraud believes that graduates from his school (AUC), who graduate "without a red flag" have match rates of 95%-99%. His sole shred of evidence for this statistic, is that he attends there currently.

My evidence is listed below



American University of the Caribbean 2010 Match Data

Anesthesiology - 1
Emergency Medicine - 11
Family Practice - 46
General Surgery - 4
Internal Medicine - 59
Neurology - 3
OB/GYN - 12
Pathology - 1
Pediatrics - 16
Prelim Medicine - 9
Prelim Surgery - 6
Psychiatry Residency - 12
Radiology - 2
Traditional Year - 5
Total 187

~300 students start a year. They have three start dates, January, May, and September. I am trying to find concrete evidence showing their actual enrollment numbers, but they virtually impossible to find.
62% Match



Roughly 340 students start each year at AUC, at different times of the year (Either January, May, September). AUC refuses to list class sizes on their website. My investigations at ValueMD show that the number is actually much closer to 380, but I will lowball the number to give Dr. Fraud the benefit of the doubt.

Of the 340 students that start the program each year, only ~187 match. ~153 students either: A) Drop out in debt or B) Did not match and will have reapply / strengthen their applications with more coursework (additional degrees) or additional research. Dr. Fraud has mentioned that the students who enter AUC who are "confident that they will graduate from their respective program" will match without a problem "95%-99%" of the time. According to this logic the 153 students that didn't make it must have not been confident that they would graduate the program. Do you honestly believe almost half the class that started medical school at AUC were not confident, and felt that they probably weren't going to make it? This IS AUC's data. I am not playing or manipulating the numbers. Their match list is from their site (it's cited) and it was updated to include students who pre-matched / found residencies through another method. You must also take into consideration that many students do NOT match on their first try going through the Caribbean (evidenced by the fact that 1,946 didn't match this year). This means it's impossible to tell how many of the 187 AUC matching students actually matched on their first try.

The above example is why attrition rates are extremely important, and SHOULD be factored into you decision of attending DO or Caribbean MD.

Now to compare AUC's data with a DO school


DMU-COM Class of 2010

Anesthesiology - 9
Emergency Medicine - 26
Family Medicine - 43
Internal Medicine - 30
Medicine-Preliminary - 6
Neurology - 4
Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine - OMT 1
Obstetrics - Gynecology - 14
Ophthalmology - 4
Otolaryngology - 1
Pathology -3
Pediatrics -16
Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation - 10
Psychiatry - 9
Radiology - Diagnostic - 3
Surgery - General - 6
Surgery - Neurological - 1
Surgery - Orthopaedic - 6
Surgery - Otolaryn & Facial Plastic - 2
Traditional Rotating Internship - 7

Total Students - 201
Started with ~212

95% Match

One start date.

95% of the students that started the program finished. In my opinion their match list is much more impressive as well (This is up to your personal evaluation, but I think most would agree with me). 2 Plastics, 6 Ortho's, 4 Optha, and 1 Oto, is pretty impressive. AUC had 0 matches in all four of those fields.

 

[Bostonredsox]

Well I have a residency, and I had no problems finding interviews or programs to rank me. Most of my colleagues who were reasonably civil and academically sound people had very little difficulty securing residencies.




again, Graduates from my program without any serious red flags have well over a 90% chance of matching into an ACGME residency. You are lumping my school in with data from programs that have poorer results.

that's funny because it looks like you lump all DO schools into one category. I am glad you got a spot for next year and I am glad your peers did as well, congratulatons. Nevertheless, in the eyes of PDs when they look at where you went to school, you are categorized as either a USMD, a USDO, a USIMG, or an FMG. Whether you went to antigua, ross, SABA...you are still a USIMG and your data is reflective of USIMG match rates. When you are trying to give premeds advice you need to incorporate all of the data. It's not quite fair to take the lowest ranked USMD school and compare it to Duke in terms of their match rates. What is correct is to take the average of all of the USMD schools and use that #. And thus, when incorporating all of the USIMG schools, the match rate is significantly less than all of the DO schools as a whole. Likewise, their are poorer DO schools that have lesser match rates, but notice Hockey doesn't use the best DO schools match rate and the worst USIMG schools rate, he uses the avg of all the DO schools and the avg of all of the USIMG schools. You are only as strong as your weakest link and there are some very weak USIMG schools.

 

[Bostonredsox]

The other flaw in your data which hockey has pointed out, is your match rate you are using is the rate of people from your school who entered this years match, not the rate as compared with all of the people your class has lost along the way from the first day of med school. You have to make it through school to get to the match, and as a very very high number of students fail out along the way or have to repeat semesters before they even get through step 1 and 2, the rate of USIMGs who start med school on day one and are matched to a program 4 years later is abysmally low compared with DO schools.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

God Dr.Fraud is trolling you guys so hard. But seriously, don't even bother talking about it. Residency programs prefer DO's and within the next 10 years with the implementation of a new match system IMG's will be completely ignored. There is no argument, there are people on here who have completely made this crystal clear.


Heh.. it'd be so funny if this was in pre-allo.. This thread would have been a lolcats thread or a lolcats in nice cars thread by now.

 

[SouthParkMD]

Im missing something, because I don't really see the point of the "statistics". All im getting from it is that MD > DO > than or = FMG, which is already known. Even going back to the first page, I don't really see much difference between DOs and FMGs that match. Im clearly missing something but aside the fact that MD is the most solid route, what am I supposed to get from the stats?

 

[DrFraud]

This is Dr. Frauds argument

Dr. Fraud believes that graduates from his school (AUC), who graduate "without a red flag" have match rates of 95%-99%. His sole shred of evidence for this statistic, is that he attends there currently.

My evidence is listed below



American University of the Caribbean 2010 Match Data

Did you also use this,

http://aucmed.edu/pdf/residency-process/ResidencyReport.pdf


-DrFraud

 

[Honze55]

Well I have a residency, and I had no problems finding interviews or programs to rank me. Most of my colleagues who were reasonably civil and academically sound people had very little difficulty securing residencies.

you and your friends must be ballers. this isn't the story for most of the people who choose the SGU route.

people go to SGU because they can't get into schools in the US. I guess some of them could be really brilliant and just drank too much in undergrad (which is why they had a crappy GPA/MCAT and had to leave the country for medical school), but the majority don't have what it takes to be in medical school--a statement supported by attrition rates in Caribbean schools. (USMLE pass rates aren't a valid assesment because the school doesn't let everyone sit for the exam.)

In the end, it is very possible for someone to go to SGU, bust their ass, and get a great residency in a great US teaching hospital. It's a lot harder though, and the chances for success are must slimmer. To suggest it's a superior path to the US options (MD or DO) is just plain silly IMO. At best, it's a great last resort.

 

[HockeyDr09]

Im missing something, because I don't really see the point of the "statistics". All im getting from it is that MD > DO > than or = FMG, which is already known. Even going back to the first page, I don't really see much difference between DOs and FMGs that match. Im clearly missing something but aside the fact that MD is the most solid route, what am I supposed to get from the stats?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10862275&postcount=84

If you don't see a difference there, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[panasonic52]

Im missing something, because I don't really see the point of the "statistics". All im getting from it is that MD > DO > than or = FMG, which is already known. Even going back to the first page, I don't really see much difference between DOs and FMGs that match. Im clearly missing something but aside the fact that MD is the most solid route, what am I supposed to get from the stats?

I just went through all the pages. From what I gather, it sounds like when you take both ACGME + AOA residency spots into consideration, DO is somewhat equal to MD for certain fields. Caribbean schools, though, have a significantly less chance of matching at around 50-55%.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I was trying to filter through the arguments and might have missed something.

 

[patel2]

Im missing something, because I don't really see the point of the "statistics". All im getting from it is that MD > DO > than or = FMG, which is already known. Even going back to the first page, I don't really see much difference between DOs and FMGs that match. Im clearly missing something but aside the fact that MD is the most solid route, what am I supposed to get from the stats?

yes, you are missing a lot. The charts show that as a whole, 90% of DO students who enter medical school from day 1 will match within 4 years. This is a rate that is nearly identical to US MD, and is 40% higher than FMGs, who match at a rate of 50%.

Similarly, if you look at the breakdowns of specialties, DO students on average are specializing in any non-primary care field at substantially higher rates than FMGs, and in most cases, they are on par with the percentage breakdowns of US MD. There is certainly some bias at the top residencies and specialties in MD programs for a DO (but it is worse for a FMG), but when you account for AOA + ACGME matches, the breakdowns of specialties end up being very comparable, for US MD and US DO.

What part confuses you? The chart is fairly complicated, so I can clarify it further.

 

[HockeyDr09]

I just went through all the pages. From what I gather, it sounds like when you take both ACGME + AOA residency spots into consideration, DO is somewhat equal to MD for certain fields. Caribbean schools, though, have a significantly less chance of matching at around 50-55%.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I was trying to filter through the arguments and might have missed something.

Correct.

I wanted to have some data that incorporated both the NRMP and the AOA match. The orange chart of percentages should give you a rough idea of your probability to match into certain fields. One highly sought after specialty is orthopedic surgery. As an example, you're 1.33 times more likely to match Ortho as an MD than a DO. 16 times more likely as a DO than a US-IMG. 22 times more likely as an MD than a US-IMG.

Ortho match %
US-MD = 3.52%
DO = 2.63%
US-IMG = 0.16%


Obviously not concrete by any means, but at least it's something based on evidence.

^patel2 sums up everything else nicely.

 

[NurWollen]

I don't understand why so many people assume DO's all want ACGME spots and that AOA spots are inferior. I mean, sure, most of them aren't at big teaching hospitals, but then again, neither are most ACGME spots... many of them are at Random Community Hospital in Random, USA too.

 

[patel2]

I don't understand why so many people assume DO's all want ACGME spots and that AOA spots are inferior. I mean, sure, most of them aren't at big teaching hospitals, but then again, neither are most ACGME spots... many of them are at Random Community Hospital in Random, USA too.

The big issue at stake is that DOs are no longer as interested in primary care as they once were combined with the perception the ACGME residencies provide a better overall training (in part because more are associated with academic centers). The people interested in family medicine and primary care are not jumping at the chance to enter the MD match.

But it's also that there just aren't enough AOA spots in the specialties that DO students want to enter, and so students would prefer to enter the ACGME match. In regards to internal medicine, I think a big reason people are jumping on the MD ship is for more extensive fellowship opportunities that will be closed off to those doing an AOA residency.

If the composition of DO residencies available changed...let's say they magically redistributed residency slots and opened up 700 EM, ortho, derm, rads and ENT residencies while closing 700 FM... zero spots would go unfilled in the AOA match in 2012

 

[panasonic52]

Correct.

I wanted to have some data that incorporated both the NRMP and the AOA match. The orange chart of percentages should give you a rough idea of your probability to match into certain fields. One highly sought after specialty is orthopedic surgery. As an example, you're 1.33 times more likely to match Ortho as an MD than a DO. 16 times more likely as a DO than a US-IMG. 22 times more likely as an MD than a US-IMG.

Ortho match %
US-MD = 3.52%
DO = 2.63%
US-IMG = 0.16%


Obviously not concrete by any means, but at least it's something based on evidence.

^patel2 sums up everything else nicely.

Well, thanks for putting so much time into gathering all the info! I noticed at my undergrad that the idea of DOs being far inferior was spread by word of mouth...without anyone actually researching to see what the stats look like. Your charts make it a lot easier to compare the paths.

 

[Isoprop]

No statistical testing? Where's my chi squared analysis? That's the right one, right?

 

[DocEspana]

We're really re-opening this to troll-like conversations.....

I *guess* I'll watch how this plays out. CaribKid, care to calmnly discuss our own individual concerns about the adversity of boards. Something that we both take and really defines us. Rather than discussing all the biases that may or may not exist and letting some suspicious and uncited numbers incite people from my camp into nazi-like hate speech which is wholly unnecessary

 

[Gavanshir]

Hockey, of course when comparing any of these statistics, you should keep in mind the philosophy of Caribbean medical schools in regards to medschool admissions. With lower admission standards, there are far more students that simply don't make the cut and are either dismissed or make the decision that studying in a foreign country with the stresses of medical school simply isn't for them.

Caribbean students who may be on the verge of failing, depressed or have other issues also have far fewer resources available to them compared to students at a DO school. You are basically on your own, in a third world country. But the classes that do make it through because their backgrounds had adequately prepared them for the rigors of medical schools, were mature enough and frankly were strong enough, DO have a high match rate into ACGME residencies.

Simply said, there are a lot more factors that dictate whether a student is retained in their class when you are in the Caribbean than is the case when you are studying at a DO school in the US. Thus, comparing all these statistics is really useless. If you are confident that you won't fail out of medical school based on your previous academic performance, level of maturity, etc. then either route will work.

You need to decide which will affect your professional and personal life more: having the DO after your name or having graduated from the Caribbean with an MD. It is a very much personal decision. I hope all these statistics make the decision easier for you but keep in mind that statistics lie and there is always a story behind them.

This is Dr. Frauds argument




Dr. Fraud believes that graduates from his school (AUC), who graduate "without a red flag" have match rates of 95%-99%. His sole shred of evidence for this statistic, is that he attends there currently.

My evidence is listed below



American University of the Caribbean 2010 Match Data

Anesthesiology - 1
Emergency Medicine - 11
Family Practice - 46
General Surgery - 4
Internal Medicine - 59
Neurology - 3
OB/GYN - 12
Pathology - 1
Pediatrics - 16
Prelim Medicine - 9
Prelim Surgery - 6
Psychiatry Residency - 12
Radiology - 2
Traditional Year - 5
Total 187

~340 students start a year. They have three start dates, January, May, and September. I am trying to find concrete evidence showing their actual enrollment numbers, but they virtually impossible to find.
55% Match



Roughly 340 students start each year at AUC, at different times of the year (Either January, May, September). AUC refuses to list class sizes on their website. My investigations at ValueMD show that the number is actually much closer to 380, but I will lowball the number to give Dr. Fraud the benefit of the doubt.

Of the 340 students that start the program each year, only ~187 match. ~153 students either: A) Drop out in debt or B) Did not match and will have reapply / strengthen their applications with more coursework (additional degrees) or additional research. Dr. Fraud has mentioned that the students who enter AUC who are "confident that they will graduate from their respective program" will match without a problem "95%-99%" of the time. According to this logic the 153 students that didn't make it must have not been confident that they would graduate the program. Do you honestly believe almost half the class that started medical school at AUC were not confident, and felt that they probably weren't going to make it? This IS AUC's data. I am not playing or manipulating the numbers. Their match list is from their site (it's cited) and it was updated to include students who pre-matched / found residencies through another method. You must also take into consideration that many students do NOT match on their first try going through the Caribbean (evidenced by the fact that 1,946 didn't match this year). This means it's impossible to tell how many of the 187 AUC matching students actually matched on their first try.

The above example is why attrition rates are extremely important, and SHOULD be factored into you decision of attending DO or Caribbean MD.

Now to compare AUC's data with a DO school


DMU-COM Class of 2010

Anesthesiology - 9
Emergency Medicine - 26
Family Medicine - 43
Internal Medicine - 30
Medicine-Preliminary - 6
Neurology - 4
Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine - OMT 1
Obstetrics - Gynecology - 14
Ophthalmology - 4
Otolaryngology - 1
Pathology -3
Pediatrics -16
Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation - 10
Psychiatry - 9
Radiology - Diagnostic - 3
Surgery - General - 6
Surgery - Neurological - 1
Surgery - Orthopaedic - 6
Surgery - Otolaryn & Facial Plastic - 2
Traditional Rotating Internship - 7

Total Students - 201
Started with ~212

95% Match

One start date.

95% of the students that started the program finished. In my opinion their match list is much more impressive as well (This is up to your personal evaluation, but I think most would agree with me). 2 Plastics, 6 Ortho's, 4 Optha, and 1 Oto, is pretty impressive. AUC had 0 matches in all four of those fields.