MD vs MD/PhD?

[skkkkrt]

Hi there,

I'm seeking friendly advice from people who have considered both MD and MD/PhD programs. Before you jump on me for not knowing if I want to do a dual degree or not and telling me I can't do it halfheartedly...I know. That's why I'm here.

A bit about me: I've been pre-med since high school and have debated MD/PhD since I was a sophomore in college. I graduated with a degree in Neuroscience in May 2018 and will be applying in the 2019 cycle to matriculate in 2020.

I have decent research experience, I think. I worked in a chemical biology lab at St. Jude's for two years (one publication) as an undergrad and did some short term clinical research during two semesters at school (one semester in a fMRI lab in Denmark and one summer in Hematology/Oncology at Boston Children's).

I am currently working as a clinical research coordinator at Dana Farber in Boston and plan to do this until I go to medical school. I'm getting lots of patient exposure and doing regulatory work (IRB submissions, grants, etc) while hopefully starting a research project of my own soon. Statswise, I had a 3.85 undergrad (3.79 science) and 515 on MCAT.


My conundrum is that my attraction to research does not fall in to the typical MD/PhD buckets. I would be interested in pursuing a PhD in Developmental or Cog Neuro with an emphasis on fetal/child development but more likely in something more along the lines of Fetal/Maternal medicine. Also interested in global medicine....just interested in a lot of things . I know there are some of schools with Neuro options and some with fetal/maternal medicine (UNC, UAB), but I'm concerned that I won't have that many options.

I don't want to go to an MD/PhD just for the sake of doing it and I'm not particularly interested in doing hard bench science for the rest of my life. I'm also concerned about getting in, period lol. I know how competitive these programs are and I'm afraid I'm already limiting myself so much. I'm wondering if its in my best interests to apply to only MD/PhD programs with maternal/fetal/developmental medicine PhD options (as I think I'm more likely to pursue this) and then MD programs for the rest. But I'm not sure how difficult it will be to write my applications if applying to both types of programs (ie coming off too research heavy for MD or not enough for MD/PhD)

Bottom line is, I know I can do research as an MD, but I love the idea of training as a physician scientist to truly appreciate the translational side of research. I'm also pretty interested in academia as well. I'm wondering what y'all think and in particular, if anyone has applied to both MD and MD/PhD programs! All of your advice is SO welcomed and sorry for the novel!

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[Lucca]

What is your long term vision for your career? 80% of MD/PhD grads will end up in Academic Medicine whether they are grant funded or not. Is that what you want for yourself, too?
Do you want to run a lab? (Yes --> point for MD/PhD, No--> MD)
Do you want to be first and foremost a clinician or researcher? (researcher-->MD/PhD, clinician-->MD)
What kind of research do you want to do: basic, translational, or clinical? (basic or translational --> MD/PhD, Clinical ---> MD)

These are fast and loose and everyone's path is different. I would chat with some physician scientists whose careers you would like to emulate at Dana Farber (just e-mail them and ask to meet them for a bit over coffee or something) about their career paths (MD and MD/PhD physician scientists). You will get a much better idea from those conversations which path could be better for you.

The average MD/PhD matriculant has a 3.8/514 with the equivalent of 1.5 years full-time research experience. It sounds like you have some basic science under your belt already, which is great, because basic science is the gold standard and clinical research is not really viewed in the same light. Should you choose to go all-in on the dual degree, you would be better served by being in a basic science post during your gap year but what is done is done and hopefully wont hurt you. So, overall, you would be a reasonably competitive candidate for MD/PhD should you choose that route.

Talking with physician scientists IRL about their careers convinced me that MD/PhD was the path for me. I know many others who did the same and figured out that the MD was a better option. At the end of the day, there are many ways to become a physician scientist and not all of them require getting a PhD. There are pros and cons to different paths. Check out the physician scientist forum. Especially the threads about "Would you do MD/PhD again?" and the stickied one about different paths people took to their physician scientist posts.

 

[Goro]

Hi there,

I'm seeking friendly advice from people who have considered both MD and MD/PhD programs. Before you jump on me for not knowing if I want to do a dual degree or not and telling me I can't do it halfheartedly...I know. That's why I'm here.

A bit about me: I've been pre-med since high school and have debated MD/PhD since I was a sophomore in college. I graduated with a degree in Neuroscience in May 2018 and will be applying in the 2019 cycle to matriculate in 2020.

I have lots of research experience, I think. I worked in a chemical biology lab at St. Jude's for two years (one publication) as an undergrad and did some short term clinical research during two semesters at school. I am currently working as a clinical research coordinator at Dana Farber in Boston and plan to do this until I go to medical school. I'm getting lots of patient exposure and doing regulatory work (IRB submissions, grants, etc) while hopefully starting a research project of my own soon. Statswise, I had a 3.85 undergrad and 515 on MCAT.


My conundrum is that my attraction to research does not fall in to the typical MD/PhD buckets. I would be interested in pursuing a PhD in Developmental or Cog Neuro with an emphasis on fetal/child development but more likely in something more along the lines of Fetal/Maternal healthcare. Also interested in global medicine....just interested in a lot of things . I know there are some of schools with Neuro options and some with fetal/maternal medicine (UNC, UAB), but I'm concerned that I won't have that many options. I don't want to go to an MD/PhD just for the sake of doing it. I'm also concerned about getting in, period lol. I know how competitive these programs are and I'm afraid I'm already limiting myself so much. I'm wondering if its in my best interests to apply to only MD/PhD programs with fetal/developmental medicine (as I think I'm more likely to pursue this) and then MD programs for the rest.

Bottom line is, I know I can do research as an MD, but I love the idea of training as a physician scientist to truly appreciate the translational side of research. I'm also pretty interested in academic as well. I'm wondering what y'all think and in particular, if anyone has applied to both MD and MD/PhD programs! All of your advice is SO welcomed and sorry for the novel!

From your motivation, I don't see why PhD alone would be off the table.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Absolutely agree with Goro. My niece is a PhD in neuroimmunology. VERY much coordinating with clinical medicine. I guess you need to decide how many years you want to be in school/ residency training. Best wishes and good luck!!

 

[puahate]

From your motivation, I don't see why PhD alone would be off the table.

lets be real here.

PhDs in 2018 are a gamble. If I were OP I'd apply to both MD and MD/PhDs. MDs can still get into research if they want.

 

[skkkkrt]

From your motivation, I don't see why PhD alone would be off the table.

Fair point! But I know that I want to have patient contact. Research alone wouldn't cut it for me. I've never really considered *not* doing an MD in some shape or form.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Fair point! But I know that I want to have patient contact. Research alone wouldn't cut it for me. I've never really considered *not* doing an MD in some shape or form.

Sounds like you answered your own question. Apply to MD/PhD program. If one is not for you, you can go with the other one. Best wishes and good luck!

 

[Goro]

lets be real here.

PhDs in 2018 are a gamble. If I were OP I'd apply to both MD and MD/PhDs. MDs can still get into research if they want.

What did you do to get on the Bad Boy list???

 

[ex-mdphd]

Hi there,
I don't want to go to an MD/PhD just for the sake of doing it and I'm not particularly interested in doing hard bench science for the rest of my life. I'm also concerned about getting in, period lol. I know how competitive these programs are and I'm afraid I'm already limiting myself so much. I'm wondering if its in my best interests to apply to only MD/PhD programs with maternal/fetal/developmental medicine PhD options (as I think I'm more likely to pursue this) and then MD programs for the rest. But I'm not sure how difficult it will be to write my applications if applying to both types of programs (ie coming off too research heavy for MD or not enough for MD/PhD)

Bottom line is, I know I can do research as an MD, but I love the idea of training as a physician scientist to truly appreciate the translational side of research. I'm also pretty interested in academia as well. I'm wondering what y'all think and in particular, if anyone has applied to both MD and MD/PhD programs! All of your advice is SO welcomed and sorry for the novel!

I applied 100% MD/PhD, but wound up doing interviews for both MD and MD/PhD (tl;dr at the end of the cycle I decided not to do either and am applying to PhD programs at the moment, so I understand the hard decision you're trying to make). Many MD programs are now actively incorporating research into their curriculums, and there's always the chance you could do an internal transfer if you decided to do the MD/PhD later.

You can definitely pursue an MD/PhD for the training without the intention of going into academia, and the training you will get as a PhD is more comprehensive and extensive than if you were to take a research year as an MD. That being said, I've now worked in two translational labs, and at least from my experiences, you can gain a significant appreciation for and understanding of translational research from doing a research gap year or a PSTP without going the whole 9 yards for the PhD.

Lucca brings up a lot of great points - definitely get other opinions! At the end of the day, though, there's no better choice or decision. If you decide to do an MD-only, you'll have many other opportunities to do research in the future (my current PI is an MD!).

 

[MyOdyssey]

I applied 100% MD/PhD, but wound up doing interviews for both MD and MD/PhD (tl;dr at the end of the cycle I decided not to do either and am applying to PhD programs at the moment, so I understand the hard decision you're trying to make). Many MD programs are now actively incorporating research into their curriculums, and there's always the chance you could do an internal transfer if you decided to do the MD/PhD later.

You can definitely pursue an MD/PhD for the training without the intention of going into academia, and the training you will get as a PhD is more comprehensive and extensive than if you were to take a research year as an MD. That being said, I've now worked in two translational labs, and at least from my experiences, you can gain a significant appreciation for and understanding of translational research from doing a research gap year or a PSTP without going the whole 9 yards for the PhD.

Lucca brings up a lot of great points - definitely get other opinions! At the end of the day, though, there's no better choice or decision. If you decide to do an MD-only, you'll have many other opportunities to do research in the future (my current PI is an MD!).

Why did you decide not to pursue a MD or MD/PhD?

 

[ex-mdphd]

Why did you decide not to pursue a MD or MD/PhD?

I realized my passions lied in teaching and undergraduate education (as well as research!), and that it wasn't worth it for me to get the MD just because I could I also realized that being a 'people person' didn't automatically mean I had to do medicine - I can serve people in other ways! Took a long time, though - I was grappling with the decision for most of undergrad.

 

[Pagan FutureDoc]

I realized my passions lied in teaching and undergraduate education (as well as research!), and that it wasn't worth it for me to get the MD just because I could I also realized that being a 'people person' didn't automatically mean I had to do medicine - I can serve people in other ways! Took a long time, though - I was grappling with the decision for most of undergrad.

Sometimes I wonder if I wouldn’t have been happier going this route...especially now with all of my incoming classmates being MS4s now

 

[ex-mdphd]

Sometimes I wonder if I wouldn’t have been happier going this route...especially now with all of my incoming classmates being MS4s now

I think no matter which choice you make, there will be some regrets and some joys! In the end, having the MD/PhD perspective is a unique and invaluable tool that I think will be a boon no matter where your career takes you.

 

[nabby9]

medicine holds a plethora of combinations and unique paths one can take. I think ultimately one must be happy with the decision that we eventually take. Since you are applying in the next cycle you still have time to do full-time research as most MD-PhD matriculates do. I think that helps a lot of people decide if research is really for them.

I have debated MD vs. MD/PhD for 3 years, same amount of time I have spent in the lab. I have been fortunate to have publications but I am worried my 3.55 will render me with zero acceptances if I apply to the competitive MSTP pool. Can previous MD/PhDs offer their rational for applying to both MD and MSTP programs? Should I ask mentors to prepare separate LORs for MD and MD/PhD. Thanks.

 

[MyOdyssey]

I realized my passions lied in teaching and undergraduate education (as well as research!), and that it wasn't worth it for me to get the MD just because I could I also realized that being a 'people person' didn't automatically mean I had to do medicine - I can serve people in other ways! Took a long time, though - I was grappling with the decision for most of undergrad.

Why does teaching undergrads (many of whom will be premed!) appeal to you more than teaching medical students or graduate students?

 

[Lucca]

medicine holds a plethora of combinations and unique paths one can take. I think ultimately one must be happy with the decision that we eventually take. Since you are applying in the next cycle you still have time to do full-time research as most MD-PhD matriculates do. I think that helps a lot of people decide if research is really for them.

I have debated MD vs. MD/PhD for 3 years, same amount of time I have spent in the lab. I have been fortunate to have publications but I am worried my 3.55 will render me with zero acceptances if I apply to the competitive MSTP pool. Can previous MD/PhDs offer their rational for applying to both MD and MSTP programs? Should I ask mentors to prepare separate LORs for MD and MD/PhD. Thanks.

IMO (fwiw cuz I haven’t been accepted) prepare the best possible app for MD/PhD if you truly, deep down want to do the dual degree. The majority of programs will consider you for MD even if the MD/PhD committee rejects you, and having a coherent application with a single, clear narrative will be more effective than a piecemeal one.

What’s your MCAT? A strong McAT can save a lower GPA with strong research experience as research is king in this (md/PhD) process. There are also a significant number of excellent programs, including those with MSTP designation, with a broader pool of accepted stats (McGovern, Long, Baylor, Iowa, UAB, Stony Brook, eg)

 

[ex-mdphd]

I have debated MD vs. MD/PhD for 3 years, same amount of time I have spent in the lab. I have been fortunate to have publications but I am worried my 3.55 will render me with zero acceptances if I apply to the competitive MSTP pool. Can previous MD/PhDs offer their rational for applying to both MD and MSTP programs? Should I ask mentors to prepare separate LORs for MD and MD/PhD. Thanks.

[

IMO (fwiw cuz I haven’t been accepted) prepare the best possible app for MD/PhD if you truly, deep down want to do the dual degree. The majority of programs will consider you for MD even if the MD/PhD committee rejects you, and having a coherent application with a single, clear narrative will be more effective than a piecemeal one.

I will say though, that I felt as though most programs didn't consider me for MD if I was rejected MD/PhD until much further down the cycle (the only exception being the 3 MD interviews I was offered - those were the only schools that considered me for MD in a timely fashion). It also felt like a lot of schools took a long time just giving me an MD/PhD decision - I finished all my secondaries by the end of July, but had my last interview in mid-February and my last rejection (pre-interview) like in March or April. So I think time-wise, it could put you at a disadvantage.

Applying both MD and MD/PhD could reduce the coherency of your application, but it could also broaden your chances of acceptance. But yeah, as Lucca said, if the MD/PhD is really what you want to do, go for it. But you will need some really solid research experience, a great MCAT score, and stellar research recs.

 

[ex-mdphd]

Why does teaching undergrads (many of whom will be premed!) appeal to you more than teaching medical students or graduate students?

I don't know, honestly - I think I really appreciate the intimacy of the relationship between the undergrad and professor. I think undergrad is a time when a lot of people are exploring who they are and who they want to be (both as individuals and in terms of career), and I really like the idea of getting to walk alongside them in that journey. I've also met a lot of classmates who I think have incredible potential, but just weren't given adequate guidance as undergrads, and I'd like to try and change that. And I like the interdisciplinary nature of, say, a liberal arts school (I studied both music and biology in undergrad).

That's not to say that you can't get a lot of those same qualities in med or grad school, but I think it would be more meaningful to me working in undergrad

 

[MyOdyssey]

Thanks for all your insights. It's been very helpful for those of us considering this path.

[

But you will need some really solid research experience, a great MCAT score, and stellar research recs.

What research experience did you have at the time of applying?

That's not to say that you can't get a lot of those same qualities in med or grad school, but I think it would be more meaningful to me working in undergrad

It seems you'll be making a financial sacrifice. Aren't medical school faculty (including pure PhD) more generously compensated than undergrad biology faculty?

 

[FutureOncologist]

Hi there,

I'm seeking friendly advice from people who have considered both MD and MD/PhD programs. Before you jump on me for not knowing if I want to do a dual degree or not and telling me I can't do it halfheartedly...I know. That's why I'm here.

A bit about me: I've been pre-med since high school and have debated MD/PhD since I was a sophomore in college. I graduated with a degree in Neuroscience in May 2018 and will be applying in the 2019 cycle to matriculate in 2020.

I have decent research experience, I think. I worked in a chemical biology lab at St. Jude's for two years (one publication) as an undergrad and did some short term clinical research during two semesters at school (one semester in a fMRI lab in Denmark and one summer in Hematology/Oncology at Boston Children's).

I am currently working as a clinical research coordinator at Dana Farber in Boston and plan to do this until I go to medical school. I'm getting lots of patient exposure and doing regulatory work (IRB submissions, grants, etc) while hopefully starting a research project of my own soon. Statswise, I had a 3.85 undergrad (3.79 science) and 515 on MCAT.


My conundrum is that my attraction to research does not fall in to the typical MD/PhD buckets. I would be interested in pursuing a PhD in Developmental or Cog Neuro with an emphasis on fetal/child development but more likely in something more along the lines of Fetal/Maternal medicine. Also interested in global medicine....just interested in a lot of things . I know there are some of schools with Neuro options and some with fetal/maternal medicine (UNC, UAB), but I'm concerned that I won't have that many options.

I don't want to go to an MD/PhD just for the sake of doing it and I'm not particularly interested in doing hard bench science for the rest of my life. I'm also concerned about getting in, period lol. I know how competitive these programs are and I'm afraid I'm already limiting myself so much. I'm wondering if its in my best interests to apply to only MD/PhD programs with maternal/fetal/developmental medicine PhD options (as I think I'm more likely to pursue this) and then MD programs for the rest. But I'm not sure how difficult it will be to write my applications if applying to both types of programs (ie coming off too research heavy for MD or not enough for MD/PhD)

Bottom line is, I know I can do research as an MD, but I love the idea of training as a physician scientist to truly appreciate the translational side of research. I'm also pretty interested in academia as well. I'm wondering what y'all think and in particular, if anyone has applied to both MD and MD/PhD programs! All of your advice is SO welcomed and sorry for the novel!

I hope you know St. Jude Children's Research Hospital has a PhD program now and they have an extensive mix of clinical and bench research rotations. They seem to want to produce people that want to do translational research (bedside --> bench; bench --> bedside) and you'll be able to have a fair amount of clinical exposure.

 

[ex-mdphd]

Thanks for all your insights. It's been very helpful for those of us considering this path.



What research experience did you have at the time of applying?

I had 2 years during undergrad, 2 summers (in 2 different labs), 1 post-bacc year at the NIH, and 3 pubs. I wouldn't recommend working in so many different labs for such short amounts of time (programs tend to prefer longitudinal experiences), but it's just kind of how stuff worked out.

It seems you'll be making a financial sacrifice. Aren't medical school faculty (including pure PhD) more generously compensated than undergrad biology faculty?

As far as finances go, I have no idea! I know that's a big consideration for a lot of people, but I was really fortunate to come out of undergrad debt-free, and as PhD programs are fully funded, having a significant income isn't a big factor for me (although based on what gonnif said, hopefully I'll have a little more than basic living income).

 

[skkkkrt]

I hope you know St. Jude Children's Research Hospital has a PhD program now and they have an extensive mix of clinical and bench research rotations. They seem to want to produce people that want to do translational research (bedside --> bench; bench --> bedside) and you'll be able to have a fair amount of clinical exposure.

Yes, I am aware of it! Was actually working there just before they matriculated their first class so got to see a lot of the behind the scene stuff. Really amazing, front of the line program. It was truly an exceptional place to work and am sure the PhD program will be excellent. Dont think its quite for me though