military pharmacy questions..?

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hearxt

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so is there absolutely no need at this point?
i'm a current pharmacy student looking to apply for like a 3 or 2 year scholarship. i've spoken with a recruiter, but he's very smoke and mirrors about most things. i've completed pre-screening and MEPs. so far so good. i'm familiar with the scholarship options that exist but i know nothing about availability.

i cannot find any information about military pharmacy need. it looks like navy wants everything BUT pharmacists. my career goal is to work in the military. its not for money. its family tradition and i've grown up loving the lifestyle. i've worked retail for 5 years and its someone of a shell of a job compared to what i feel i could be doing. is there any more need in the air force than navy? there is such limited information on the actual need out there that i'll take anything i can get.

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Navy is converting almost a third of their active duty pharmacist billets to civilian with the current reorganization of the military health system. It is a very fluid and unstable situation right now throughout military medicine and specialties with little operational impact are probably not going to be recruiting in large numbers or at all - the small number of new accession needs will likely be filled with enlisted to officer commissioning programs. I can only assume Army and Air Force are similar. Never hurts to ask though.

Sorry.
 
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When you say recruiter I’m assuming your speaking with an AMEDD recruiter and not the ones you see at the mini-mall complex:

When you say availability do you mean slots from each branch of service? You are correct that a pharmacist is more of a “want” than a “need” at this point. Speak with an AMEDD recruiter that can direct you to start your application for the available scholarships to obtain a direct commission upon graduating.

More commonality these days (speaking for army) is to first obtain your licensure THEN apply. The process may take close to a year and nothing is guaranteed but as of right now those are your options. Depending on your age and year of school look into an rotc program if available. Couple of military personnel came through that way. Always a need for reservists if worse comes to worse then switch over to AD if it’s still a desire.
 
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so is there absolutely no need at this point?
i'm a current pharmacy student looking to apply for like a 3 or 2 year scholarship. i've spoken with a recruiter, but he's very smoke and mirrors about most things. i've completed pre-screening and MEPs. so far so good. i'm familiar with the scholarship options that exist but i know nothing about availability.

i cannot find any information about military pharmacy need. it looks like navy wants everything BUT pharmacists. my career goal is to work in the military. its not for money. its family tradition and i've grown up loving the lifestyle. i've worked retail for 5 years and its someone of a shell of a job compared to what i feel i could be doing. is there any more need in the air force than navy? there is such limited information on the actual need out there that i'll take anything i can get.
First.....realize that recruiters have forked tongues......Now..I assume you are a brat? You must know that there are so many other specialties in the Navy that would be multiple times more exciting...rewarding....etc......your actual job as a military member is to break things and kill people....flogging pills is just a sideline...For example..the services are screaming for pilots and if as rumored the Navy really grows...everyone else too...Most Pharmacy grads WILL go to a chain corporation..IF they get hired at all.......THAT is a narrow gauge track to a work life of high speed drudgery....
 
I feel your frustration. I tried to enter the reserves as a pharmacy officer after I had already served honorably as an enlisted member and gotten my pharmd. This was during the pharmacist shortage. If I would have entered I would have only been an o-1 butterbar. Ran into too many government created issues so I quit trying and moved on. Honestly I don't think the military puts an emphasis on pharmacists. I believe the highest rank a pharmacist can achieve in the USAF is colonel. Major is a retirement grade. Now that there is a pharmacist surplus, they are concerned even less. One thought would be to give up your pharmacy career and replace it with a military one by having the military train you.
 
thank you all for your responses.

@DondeEstaElBano so essentially they're moving a large chunk to civilians, is the other 2/3s on its way out as they retire to be replaced by civilians as well then? i'm sure your information is correct, i just find it a bit frustrating that a recruiter would be stringing me along so far if there isn't a chance in hell this could amount to anything.

@BC_89 yeah its a recruiter for medical officers to my knowledge. i am beginning my second year of pharmacy school in about 2 months and i was under the impression rotc was only for undergrad students. i wouldn't be opposed to going reserves for army or air force if they needed pharmacists

@APN-59 rph yes i grew up in the military. my dad was navy when i was a little kid, then went active duty air force as we got older. i know there are a lot of other jobs out there. but i wanted to go into medicine with the least amount of touching people as possible. i enjoy pharmacy and i've done it for half a decade. its a little late to switch now that i'll be starting p2 in a couple of months

@johnpharm01 thank you for your input. i feel like i've come to a point where i have to think about what i really want to do. i love pharmacy, but i also miss military life and my dad has been pushing me to join since i graduated high school (not in a pushy "you're my son you have to follow in my footsteps" way more in a "i know this is your passion, go for it you idiot" way). i don't know if i would have the guts to drop out of pharmacy school after a year though. i already have almost 70k of debt under my belt. ( i'll graduate with about 120k)
 
Navy is converting almost a third of their active duty pharmacist billets to civilian with the current reorganization of the military health system. It is a very fluid and unstable situation right now throughout military medicine and specialties with little operational impact are probably not going to be recruiting in large numbers or at all - the small number of new accession needs will likely be filled with enlisted to officer commissioning programs. I can only assume Army and Air Force are similar. Never hurts to ask though.

Sorry.

This happens every 20 years or so, I saw the tail end of that personnel disaster. The Pentagon accountants try to do this, and then they reverse their position when they figure out the civilian workforce is uncontrollable in terms of assignments and longevity (the uniformed cannot give a two-week notice...). Anyone who does get in under the tighter conditions has a very good chance of below the zone promotions.
 
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thank you all for your responses.

@DondeEstaElBano so essentially they're moving a large chunk to civilians, is the other 2/3s on its way out as they retire to be replaced by civilians as well then? i'm sure your information is correct, i just find it a bit frustrating that a recruiter would be stringing me along so far if there isn't a chance in hell this could amount to anything.

@BC_89 yeah its a recruiter for medical officers to my knowledge. i am beginning my second year of pharmacy school in about 2 months and i was under the impression rotc was only for undergrad students. i wouldn't be opposed to going reserves for army or air force if they needed pharmacists

@APN-59 rph yes i grew up in the military. my dad was navy when i was a little kid, then went active duty air force as we got older. i know there are a lot of other jobs out there. but i wanted to go into medicine with the least amount of touching people as possible. i enjoy pharmacy and i've done it for half a decade. its a little late to switch now that i'll be starting p2 in a couple of months

@johnpharm01 thank you for your input. i feel like i've come to a point where i have to think about what i really want to do. i love pharmacy, but i also miss military life and my dad has been pushing me to join since i graduated high school (not in a pushy "you're my son you have to follow in my footsteps" way more in a "i know this is your passion, go for it you idiot" way). i don't know if i would have the guts to drop out of pharmacy school after a year though. i already have almost 70k of debt under my belt. ( i'll graduate with about 120k)

If medicine is really where your heart is i would highly advise you to look further into making the switch to med school. Being a P2 is definitely not too late. There are many realms of medicine that dont invole a whole lot of close physical interactions with patients, or at least not on a regular basis (psychiatry and medical epidemiology come to mind, but there are other specialties/roles that dont involve touching people). You wont be able to get away from it completely in med school and residency, but thats just short term. You could look into USUHS or HPSP for medical school, which will help you avoid incurring any more debt.
 
@giga sorry if i was unclear. i am not interested in being a doctor or being hands on with patients. i want to study medicine and drugs. but if i am working with patients the closest i want to get to touching them is an immunization
 
sorry i accidentally hit "post" before i finished typing. i understand there are more hands off alternatives but i did not go into pharmacy school with a bachelors, just the required prereqs. so not only would i have to do another 2 years of undergrad, then i would have to do 4 years of med school plus residency, instead of just 3 more years of pharmacy school
 
thank you all for your responses.

@DondeEstaElBano so essentially they're moving a large chunk to civilians, is the other 2/3s on its way out as they retire to be replaced by civilians as well then? i'm sure your information is correct, i just find it a bit frustrating that a recruiter would be stringing me along so far if there isn't a chance in hell this could amount to anything.


No, they’re just reallocating billets within the Medical Service Corps (which pharmacist are a part of) from less operationally focused to more operationally focused specialties. So, physician assistants and psychologist numbers are going up while pharmacists and optometrists are going down. The question is being asked ‘why is THIS position an active duty position?’ If it’s required to be one, it remains. And additional staffing standard models are used to determine the number of rotational shore billets needed to support the operational ones. So the Navy had too many active duty pharmacists to support the operational mission per the model and they are course correcting.

There were significant impacts to the Military Health System by the 2017 NDAA the largest of which removes control and oversight of the military treatment facilities from the individual services and instead places them under a joint agency for administration of the Tricare benefit. The services are now refocusing to operational medicine and support of a medically ready force.

The remaining billets will remain. And the conversion is happening over the next 5 years. The plan is still in flux, but the Navy is committed to not kicking currently serving officers out in order to meet their new manpower goal. So instead they are tweaking their recruiting processes and potentially offering early retirement incentives and removing continuation incentives for pharmacists who are on the fence about staying in. Your recruiter is likely awaiting information on FY19 quotas. 2018 quotas are full. And because of the change, they can’t use past performance to predict the future - they just have to wait and see. There may not be any spots. I don’t know. There may be. But it is very restricted right now so they likely aren’t getting warm and fuzzies.

On the other hand, I was just asked to interview an HSCP candidate, so maybe that recruiter is just trying to be on the ball for potential 2019 spots...
 
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@DondeEstaElBano thank you for the clarification! i'll try to be realistic, but the fact that recruiters have not received orders to stop intake processes for HPSP or HSCP gives me a very small amount of hope
 
No, they’re just reallocating billets within the Medical Service Corps (which pharmacist are a part of) from less operationally focused to more operationally focused specialties. So, physician assistants and psychologist numbers are going up while pharmacists and optometrists are going down. The question is being asked ‘why is THIS position an active duty position?’ If it’s required to be one, it remains. And additional staffing standard models are used to determine the number of rotational shore billets needed to support the operational ones. So the Navy had too many active duty pharmacists to support the operational mission per the model and they are course correcting.

There were significant impacts to the Military Health System by the 2017 NDAA the largest of which removes control and oversight of the military treatment facilities from the individual services and instead places them under a joint agency for administration of the Tricare benefit. The services are now refocusing to operational medicine and support of a medically ready force.

The remaining billets will remain. And the conversion is happening over the next 5 years. The plan is still in flux, but the Navy is committed to not kicking currently serving officers out in order to meet their new manpower goal. So instead they are tweaking their recruiting processes and potentially offering early retirement incentives and removing continuation incentives for pharmacists who are on the fence about staying in. Your recruiter is likely awaiting information on FY19 quotas. 2018 quotas are full. And because of the change, they can’t use past performance to predict the future - they just have to wait and see. There may not be any spots. I don’t know. There may be. But it is very restricted right now so they likely aren’t getting warm and fuzzies.

On the other hand, I was just asked to interview an HSCP candidate, so maybe that recruiter is just trying to be on the ball for potential 2019 spots...

The history is like this. For the field (O4+ - Rumsfeld and after) and flag grade (O7+ - Cohen) ranks, most of us came in after the last personnel disaster and started with that "reserve commission"/"permanent active" business (I don't know if you were in that zone yourself, but it was really annoying). So, it's going to be significantly harder for TMA to do anything about those officers, because as junior grades, we already had served a time where we could have been eliminated at any time and had to compete for our actives (and were weeded out mostly on political grounds). Navy and Air Force both used this system, and they really do not have the statutory authority at this point to RIF those under that system out (and I do not believe that can change because of the aforementioned upfront price as getting out of the reserved commission was a very competitive process).

To the OP, look, you might as well do what you want to do irrespective of time. If you really, really want to commission fast with a stable career growth and frontline assignments, be a BSN nurse (ADN's I think still enter as senior enlisted). Nurses have fairly high personnel requirements DoD-wide, and a guy (I'm specific about gender) who can carry 100 kgs pretty much can write his ticket if he wants hazard pay. Making field grade is a given, making flag rank is quite possible and pay is pretty comparable to the civilian world even at the company ranks. That's the advice I would give to someone who wants to get in the uniform quick in the MSC. I do think that nursing is easily the most rewarding straightforward ROI for the MSC, more so than even medicine.

If you want to make the career investment, figure out what you want to do, then figure out whether the uniform is right for you. It's a really sad fate for mismatches. If you want to be a pharmacist, then be one. But if you are only using pharmacy as a means to an end (like a uniform), there are better ways of going about it. For the very ambitious and able, I still recommend them to go for MD/DO training as the skies are the limit (as well as not being subject to promotion caps), and their revolving door prospects are higher than the rest of the professions. While not as clear an ROI as nursing, you really can go the distance with medicine.

Pharmacy has always been undervalued and most pharmacy officers who are ambitious end up doing other things as supplemental duties (supply chain management/logistics, analysis, and research being popular options), and to promote to flag rank, almost always the Chief Pharmacy Officer is a collateral duty on top of some other non-health professions job. I think the last two or three CPO's had some logistics day job as well as being CPO.

The one thing I really dislike about the system is that there is no alternative to leadership (i.e. supervision/management) in the military system for pharmacists. Want to be a staff or clinical pharmacist forever in the military? Nope, that's what civilians are for (and I actually agree with that assessment). Officers are leaders foremost (and officers before pharmacists) and duties are assigned accordingly. There is no career place in the military for someone who wants to thrive in a technical or clinical role for the duration. And most of the time, you spend stamp collecting for the next promotion (ILE, getting your pins, etc.). It's hard to remember the times when you are actively a pharmacist as much as doing the routines that officers have to do to keep their billets and their promotion chances intact.

OP, so, if you are going to stay this path, plan on being a leader. This will not work out well for you otherwise. But you need to take the personal leadership to really evaluate what you really are about (including work history), and decide what is meaningful. We all see both types, those who are satisfied (I even say happy) with their choice to serve a very demanding master, and those who are trapped by the system. Most of that difference is introspection or lack thereof.
 
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@lord999 i really appreciate your response! so if there end up being no pharmacist specific roles available, could i just use my doctorate as a stepping stone into OCS and becoming an officer with a different role (such as research like you mentioned or what not.)? there wouldn't be any in-school scholarships available to me but if i join after graduation i could take advantage of the public service loan forgiveness program (assuming it is still around in 13 or so years). I've enjoyed studying for my pharmd but i don't necessarily need to work as a pharmacist in the traditional sense after i graduate. (my mom suggests I teach as a back up plan. a very distant back up plan.)
my current tuition is about 25k for the next year, so its about 10k more yearly than going back to undergrad and completing the 3 or so years i would need for a bsn (i would loathe getting a bsn, i'm not interested in wiping butts and touching old people even if its only for a couple of years in school. sorry to sound crass and heartless, but nursing isn't for everyone). The only thing would be, upon retirement, i would have a doctorate instead of a bachelors degree, so once i retire from the military i could teach pharmacology at a small community college or something (read: easy street) whereas with a bachelors in nursing i would still have to be doing a lot of grunt-work at a hospital or something far less easy than could be done with a doctorate.
 
@lord999 i really appreciate your response! so if there end up being no pharmacist specific roles available, could i just use my doctorate as a stepping stone into OCS and becoming an officer with a different role (such as research like you mentioned or what not.)? there wouldn't be any in-school scholarships available to me but if i join after graduation i could take advantage of the public service loan forgiveness program (assuming it is still around in 13 or so years). I've enjoyed studying for my pharmd but i don't necessarily need to work as a pharmacist in the traditional sense after i graduate. (my mom suggests I teach as a back up plan. a very distant back up plan.)
my current tuition is about 25k for the next year, so its about 10k more yearly than going back to undergrad and completing the 3 or so years i would need for a bsn (i would loathe getting a bsn, i'm not interested in wiping butts and touching old people even if its only for a couple of years in school. sorry to sound crass and heartless, but nursing isn't for everyone). The only thing would be, upon retirement, i would have a doctorate instead of a bachelors degree, so once i retire from the military i could teach pharmacology at a small community college or something (read: easy street) whereas with a bachelors in nursing i would still have to be doing a lot of grunt-work at a hospital or something far less easy than could be done with a doctorate.

"Technically", you could use the pharmacy degree that way (I know of four cases that literally went from Staff to Restricted Line to Line), but it would be a absolutely *terrible* investment and it would just be better to do a standard undergraduate if being a straight officer is your goal (in particular, engineering or languages tend to be winners even if you do not end up using it). You actually start as a pharmacist, then get moved into the role for those alternates. Again, like the others, I really question your judgment in pursuing the PharmD if you do not intend to practice in any capacity. I'd also argue very strongly that there is no easy street. While the physical labor is not high in pharmacy, the stress and the intellectual labor is fairly high, and volumes keep going up.

I change the way I read you. I do not think you have the work experience to make a good judgment on your career at this point. You have got to work in the health-care field (as a tech or intern) before you commit to this. But it's a big warning sign to me on AdCom when someone shows up and says that I want the degree but I'm not committed to practice. Usually, it works out very badly for the person involved.
 
@lord999 i have worked as a tech for 4 years and an intern for 1 year. so i have a pretty decent understanding of why i want to pursue pharmacy and i dont feel that i need to defend it. ive worked both hospital and retail. however ive also grown up as a brat and i want to pursue a military career. flirting with the idea of other degrees is fun and all, but ultimately my first priority at this point in my life is pharmacy. i am only here seeing if there is any possibility of the marriage of my two goals. I thank you for your input, but not your judgement of my character.
 
@lord999 i have worked as a tech for 4 years and an intern for 1 year. so i have a pretty decent understanding of why i want to pursue pharmacy and i dont feel that i need to defend it. ive worked both hospital and retail. however ive also grown up as a brat and i want to pursue a military career. flirting with the idea of other degrees is fun and all, but ultimately my first priority at this point in my life is pharmacy. i am only here seeing if there is any possibility of the marriage of my two goals. I thank you for your input, but not your judgement of my character.

Ah, sorry. I'm not making a character aspersion, but I'm seen the same sorts of attitudes toward the work from people who did not have enough experience to understand the difference between the credential and the actual work. It is quite possible to marry the two, but for most, it is a very uneasy balance between the two that only the love of the service can ultimately be the reward. If you are in it to practice a unique form of pharmacy and leadership is your objective, then it's good. If you want to be a rank and file pharmacist, it does not work so good. And for those slotted into other occupations within the military, that is as much to do with luck as with anything else.
 
@hearxt if it makes you feel any better, my recruiter sent me to meps and i just finished nasis. i'm starting an accelerated program so theres like 0 chance for me to get hpsp or hscp but i'm trying anyway and he's been helpful and quick with responses so he must not think its a waste of his time.... obviously i am not in the military currently and i have no family who has ever served, or that have ever been pharmacists: if retail/hospital is over-saturated, then the military probably is too. anyway good luck!
 
@DondeEstaElBano On the other hand, I was just asked to interview an HSCP candidate, so maybe that recruiter is just trying to be on the ball for potential 2019 spots...[/QUOTE]

- Thank you for the information you provided. I am a p2 pharmacy student and just had 2 Navy HSCP interviews last week! I hope they went well. I noticed that you were asked to give such an interview way back in June. That makes me think I'm late to the game! I hope I'm not too late because I know submitting these kits early is half the battle.
 
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