Moonlighting in residency. Still good source of income?

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I’m curious about this if I can get some perspective from current residents. With the ACGME restriction around 60 hours for ER weeks, is there enough time in a work week to moonlight on the side or do residents mostly do it during elective rotations? Also, are residents typically working close to that limit and therefore not having time to moonlight? Thanks for the clarification. I know moonlighting in the ER was big before but not sure if things have changed.

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We have plenty of time to moonlight starting our second year. It’s still a good source of additional income. We can also moonlight in the ICU starting second year or at outside hospitals during third year. This obviously varies at every program. Also...don’t burn yourself out.
 
The $2000 licensing application fee for the state of Texas all but made it impossible for me to financially make things work without moonlighting. Moonlighting is definitely a good, and often much needed, source of income.


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If you don't pull in at least 100k moonlighting, you're doing residency wrong

props to those that break 200
 
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If you don't pull in at least 100k moonlighting, you're doing residency wrong

props to those that break 200

Good for anyone who can do that. Do NOT feel like this is the norm or that you’re somehow inferior if this isn’t what you do. Different programs have different moonlighting rules (can’t start til third year for instance), different parts of the country have different availability of moonlighting spots, and frankly, some of us like to have some free time/see our families.

TL/DR: You do you, and don’t let some post on the internet make you feel less than.
 
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Good for anyone who can do that. Do NOT feel like this is the norm or that you’re somehow inferior if this isn’t what you do. Different programs have different moonlighting rules (can’t start til third year for instance), different parts of the country have different availability of moonlighting spots, and frankly, some of us like to have some free time/see our families.

TL/DR: You do you, and don’t let some post on the internet make you feel less than.

there are also some pretty significant variations in hours from different programs: although it’s technically not allowed our program probably has us doing close to 80hrs/week in the department intern year (on paper,60, but sign out culture was **** intern year and on shift charting was non-existant) and close to 60 the next two years. If you’re at a program that only expects you to work 40-50 moonlighting seems a lot more feasible.

having said that, some people are willing to work 20 hrs on top of a 60-80 hr week (breaks duty hours but hey whatever), and props to you if you’re one of them.
 
Good for anyone who can do that. Do NOT feel like this is the norm or that you’re somehow inferior if this isn’t what you do. Different programs have different moonlighting rules (can’t start til third year for instance), different parts of the country have different availability of moonlighting spots, and frankly, some of us like to have some free time/see our families.

TL/DR: You do you, and don’t let some post on the internet make you feel less than.
While it may not be the norm to make 6 figures, don’t try to pretend it doesn’t make you a better doctor to moonlight a ton. I’ve supervised third year residents who moonlighted a lot and those who didn’t. It’s night and day difference.
 
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I’m curious about this if I can get some perspective from current residents. With the ACGME restriction around 60 hours for ER weeks, is there enough time in a work week to moonlight on the side or do residents mostly do it during elective rotations? Also, are residents typically working close to that limit and therefore not having time to moonlight? Thanks for the clarification. I know moonlighting in the ER was big before but not sure if things have changed.
There is plenty of time to moonlight in residency in most programs. This is definitely something you should ask about on the interview trail with residents of the program. You should only start when you feel comfortable doing so most likely in your second half to late second year. You should start in an environment that is easy and try to move from there based on comfort. Always remember you have a mother base you can call for help too.

In terms of hours, it’s averaged monthly. So about 240 hrs a month. I spread all my vacation during third year over ER months to reduce shift load, then went hardcore on elective months doing pretty much nothing but moonlighting. I made over $250,000 my third year. It allowed me to buy a very nice house, truck, engagement ring, and pay off all the interest on my student loans. It basically jump started my life so I never had to live like a resident when I graduated.

Money aside, moonlighting made me a better doctor. It also made transitioning into my first job out of residency seamless. I wouldn’t go to a program that didn’t allow ED moonlighting third year.
 
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There is plenty of time to moonlight in residency in most programs. This is definitely something you should ask about on the interview trail with residents of the program. You should only start when you feel comfortable doing so most likely in your second half to late second year. You should start in an environment that is easy and try to move from there based on comfort. Always remember you have a mother base you can call for help too.

In terms of hours, it’s averaged monthly. So about 240 hrs a month. I spread all my vacation during third year over ER months to reduce shift load, then went hardcore on elective months doing pretty much nothing but moonlighting. I made over $250,000 my third year. It allowed me to buy a very nice house, truck, engagement ring, and pay off all the interest on my student loans. It basically jump started my life so I never had to live like a resident when I graduated.

Money aside, moonlighting made me a better doctor. It also made transitioning into my first job out of residency seamless. I wouldn’t go to a program that didn’t allow ED moonlighting third year.
Elective months? You went to a 3 year program that had multiple months of electives? I think I had 1 month total of elective time. Everything else was basically running the dept.

I definitely missed out on moonlighting money as a resident 2/2 our work culture. Not sure that I'd change things if I could though.
 
Moonlighting is without doubt very important. Just started intermittently the last quarter of 2019 and added $30K to my resident salary over a few shifts within 3 months. No where near as much as "the other guy". The learning is immeasurable! Assuming you are moonlighting in an ED. Unfortunately with the new licensing changes in California it will be a thing of the past soon!
 
I love this sub forum.

On the one hand: the bottom for salaries is falling out, the market is flooded, you can't get a job in Texas, the world is ending.
On the other hand: you should be making 100k-200k moonlighting as a PGY2.

Which is it?
 
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I love this sub forum.

On the one hand: the bottom for salaries is falling out, the market is flooded, you can't get a job in Texas, the world is ending.
On the other hand: you should be making 100k-200k moonlighting as a PGY2.

Which is it?
It's not the second. I only know a few people who made 6 figures moonlighting, and they did it by moonlighting nearly every day they weren't working, as well as abusing the scheduler and taking shift bonuses instead of signing up beforehand.

And yes, I agree that the CMGs can afford it. I'm not saying they can't. But that dries up pretty quickly once they hire full timers.
 
Elective months? You went to a 3 year program that had multiple months of electives? I think I had 1 month total of elective time. Everything else was basically running the dept.

I definitely missed out on moonlighting money as a resident 2/2 our work culture. Not sure that I'd change things if I could though.
Three.

8)
 
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I love this sub forum.

On the one hand: the bottom for salaries is falling out, the market is flooded, you can't get a job in Texas, the world is ending.
On the other hand: you should be making 100k-200k moonlighting as a PGY2.

Which is it?

100k is fairly attainable if your program is willing. Assuming 1500/shift, you only need 4/month to hit 50k plus 60k residency salary.

I'm in fellowship, 1st year, and I moonlight during the holiday break for a cool 10g after taxes for 6 shifts, combination of wards and ICU night float. I got a holiday pay differential which helped contribute.

If you are motivated, you can make bank.
 
100k is fairly attainable if your program is willing. Assuming 1500/shift, you only need 4/month to hit 50k plus 60k residency salary.

I'm in fellowship, 1st year, and I moonlight during the holiday break for a cool 10g after taxes for 6 shifts, combination of wards and ICU night float. I got a holiday pay differential which helped contribute.

If you are motivated, you can make bank.

You and I must have gone to very different type of residencies or maybe you are just made of sterner stuff. If I worked 4 additional shifts in residency per month, it would mean that there would be on average maybe 2 days a month where I wasn't either working a residency shift, post overnight, going to conference, or working a moonlighting shift. I don't think that would be sustainable for very long. Certainly not compatible with anything approaching a normal life.
 
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I ended up doing a little bit of urgent care moonlighting with a system that really needed help. $150/hr with $300/shift bonus is how I remember it.

Wasn't worth it. Stopped after a small number of shifts. Better to have time with wife/kid(s).
 
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You and I must have gone to very different type of residencies or maybe you are just made of sterner stuff. If I worked 4 additional shifts in residency per month, it would mean that there would be on average maybe 2 days a month where I wasn't either working a residency shift, post overnight, going to conference, or working a moonlighting shift. I don't think that would be sustainable for very long. Certainly not compatible with anything approaching a normal life.
I did internal medicine and it was not a cush program but I also did things like work 60 hours straight (24 into 12 then 12 overnight then 12 the next day) or work 60+ days straight. The money was worth it to me.
 
I did internal medicine and it was not a cush program but I also did things like work 60 hours straight (24 into 12 then 12 overnight then 12 the next day) or work 60+ days straight. The money was worth it to me.
So you either did this a long time ago or didn’t chart your actual hours?
 
So you either did this a long time ago or didn’t chart your actual hours?
Treat administration like mushrooms, feed them **** and keep em in the dark.
 
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I’m curious about this if I can get some perspective from current residents. With the ACGME restriction around 60 hours for ER weeks, is there enough time in a work week to moonlight on the side or do residents mostly do it during elective rotations? Also, are residents typically working close to that limit and therefore not having time to moonlight? Thanks for the clarification. I know moonlighting in the ER was big before but not sure if things have changed.

60hrs/week is insane. I never worked close to that as an intern in the ED where I trained. We worked 21 tens, which is about 50 hours/week. My residents now work 20 nines as interns, which is like 40 hrs/week. As interns. Sure, sometimes it takes extra time to finish notes, wrap stuff up some shifts, but no one is coming close to 50 hours of clinical work, let alone 60. I get that some programs push the number of hours to 60, I just find that amount of workload to be unhealthy with shift work personally. Beware of the 12 hour shift in residency, working 12 hour shifts 5 days a week is way too much in my opinion.

Nearly every one of our third years makes more than 100k with moonlighting + residency salary. Most work about 3/month, easily doable while working their 18. We actually grant residents who are moonlighting 2-3 shifts in a given month one extra shift off so their shift count doesn't go above 20 to try to keep their schedules around that 40 hr work week. We limit it at 3/month though for the same reason, we don't want anyone going completely nuts and trying to work another 10 shifts/month. I think moonlighting is a very important experience for senior residents to get out and gain autonomy in the right setting. We have had nothing but great feedback from our current and past residents about our moonlighting structure.
 
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60hrs/week is insane. I never worked close to that as an intern in the ED where I trained. We worked 21 tens, which is about 50 hours/week. My residents now work 20 nines as interns, which is like 40 hrs/week. As interns. Sure, sometimes it takes extra time to finish notes, wrap stuff up some shifts, but no one is coming close to 50 hours of clinical work, let alone 60. I get that some programs push the number of hours to 60, I just find that amount of workload to be unhealthy with shift work personally. Beware of the 12 hour shift in residency, working 12 hour shifts 5 days a week is way too much in my opinion.

Nearly every one of our third years makes more than 100k with moonlighting + residency salary. Most work about 3/month, easily doable while working their 18. We actually grant residents who are moonlighting 2-3 shifts in a given month one extra shift off so their shift count doesn't go above 20 to try to keep their schedules around that 40 hr work week. We limit it at 3/month though for the same reason, we don't want anyone going completely nuts and trying to work another 10 shifts/month. I think moonlighting is a very important experience for senior residents to get out and gain autonomy in the right setting. We have had nothing but great feedback from our current and past residents about our moonlighting structure.

Having people like you in academics/medEd is why EM is such a great field. This is a very thoughtful, results targeted approach that balances wellness with good training.

The place I’m putting #1 has a similar setup, and they’re #1 for that reason.
 
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I haven't been in a position to moonlight as a resident yet, but as a former EM intern that is now practicing independently as a military GMO, I definitely feel like I will be a better doctor when I go back to residency. Not so much because I'm more knowledgeable in emergency medicine, in fact I've forgotten a lot, but because I have a lot more confidence in my decision making and ability to make decisions without checking with an upper level or attending.

If I get the chance to moonlight when I get back to residency, I probably will because of the experience potential more so than the money. That being said, if I do go back to a military residency, I'm not allowed to do any moonlighting, which is unfortunate. And as great as the experience is, I don't think it's worth me doing it for free. UNLESS it's at a free clinic or something like that - in which case it'd be worth it.
 
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I haven't met many that don't break six figures moonlighting. However, n=1 in the midwest where rates are a little bit higher. I've heard rates from 180/hr-320/hr as a resident. Could all change very soon though!
 
So how are people going about landing moonlighting gigs?
I am an intern, got a wife and 5 kids at home so residency salary isn't going to cut it without some supplemental income (We live in SoFlo). I need to pass step 3 and get license/DEA and whatnot obvs but where do I begin to look? In my IM program I cant find anyone who moonlights. Most are single or are here on a visa so I know for various reasons people just havint gone through the trouble, but I want to get ahead of this and know where to look when the time comes to bring home the bacon.
 
Ask the attendings who also did residency there. Ask your PD. Call around to various hospitals/urgent cares. See if the psych facility needs someone to be on call. Some hospitalists may be ok with you moonlighting for them weekends, or taking admits overnight. If you are IM be aware that if you are at an UC you will get peds/OB etc
 
So how are people going about landing moonlighting gigs?
I am an intern, got a wife and 5 kids at home so residency salary isn't going to cut it without some supplemental income (We live in SoFlo). I need to pass step 3 and get license/DEA and whatnot obvs but where do I begin to look? In my IM program I cant find anyone who moonlights. Most are single or are here on a visa so I know for various reasons people just havint gone through the trouble, but I want to get ahead of this and know where to look when the time comes to bring home the bacon.

I believe you have to first make sure your program allows you to moonlight. I don't think you're allowed to go ahead without the formal green light from your leadership.
 
I believe you have to first make sure your program allows you to moonlight. I don't think you're allowed to go ahead without the formal green light from your leadership.

I asked about this during interview season because it was an important point for me knowing I’d need the supplemental income. It’s the standard “when you’re a second year and have passed step 3”.

Mushdoc to your point I’ve done that and the attendings from the program are the same as the other residents. Most of them have said they didn’t have time or that they didn’t think it was necessary.
I do plan on sitting down with my PD to pick his brain about it. I’m lucky because he is really awesome and understanding and encourages us to reach out to him with questions so I’m sure I’ll get some good direction when I do that. Just wanted to see if the SDN community had any leads.
Anyone know about moonlighting recruitment companies? I’ve found a few on the internet and even filled out some “contact me” forms. If anyone has any experience please let me know.
 
Ask the attendings who also did residency there. Ask your PD. Call around to various hospitals/urgent cares. See if the psych facility needs someone to be on call. Some hospitalists may be ok with you moonlighting for them weekends, or taking admits overnight. If you are IM be aware that if you are at an UC you will get peds/OB etc

If you’re an IM resident and considering moonlighting in an ER, with no emergency experience, I would seriously re-think that plan. The safest places would be double and triple coverage EDs where you are less likely, not more likely, to land a moonlighting gig. What are you going to do if a spontaneous PTX comes in or the myriad of airway disasters that often present? Septic kiddo? Peds arrest? Delivery? It’s so not worth risking litigation and/or bad outcome (or both) during residency. Now, if you’re interested in UC or something....sure, I suppose that’s doable. There may also be moonlighting opportunities for hospitalist type gigs for IM residents. An alternate ER that might prove to be safe and I believe had some IM residents moonlighting there would be the VA. No OB, no peds, lots of back up around if you get in a pickle. So, that’s an option too. Just think it all through before you jump.
 
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I asked about this during interview season because it was an important point for me knowing I’d need the supplemental income. It’s the standard “when you’re a second year and have passed step 3”.

Mushdoc to your point I’ve done that and the attendings from the program are the same as the other residents. Most of them have said they didn’t have time or that they didn’t think it was necessary.
I do plan on sitting down with my PD to pick his brain about it. I’m lucky because he is really awesome and understanding and encourages us to reach out to him with questions so I’m sure I’ll get some good direction when I do that. Just wanted to see if the SDN community had any leads.
Anyone know about moonlighting recruitment companies? I’ve found a few on the internet and even filled out some “contact me” forms. If anyone has any experience please let me know.

I was in a 4 year program and my PD gave me a link to Weatherby after my 2nd year. I moonlighted for them the last 2 years of residency and as others have said on here, it was a great experience. I would suggest reaching out to them. It was relatively painless for me. They found the jobs, set me up with a schedule, flights, rental cars, hotels. All I had to do was show up when and where they said and just do the work. You have to haggle with them initially over rates but not so much after that unless you decide to work another gig. It’s easier if you moonlight in your home state d/t familiarity with the system and accessibility to your attendings who are always a phone call away, but it’s not a deal breaker. I flew 2 states over to moonlight. Avoid the single coverage busy rural EDs and try to find jobs in places where you have double coverage or at least a full time intensivist or someone that can come bail you out of trouble if you get over your head.
 
If you’re an IM resident and considering moonlighting in an ER, with no emergency experience, I would seriously re-think that plan. The safest places would be double and triple coverage EDs where you are less likely, not more likely, to land a moonlighting gig. What are you going to do if a spontaneous PTX comes in or the myriad of airway disasters that often present? Septic kiddo? Peds arrest? Delivery? It’s so not worth risking litigation and/or bad outcome (or both) during residency. Now, if you’re interested in UC or something....sure, I suppose that’s doable. There may also be moonlighting opportunities for hospitalist type gigs for IM residents. An alternate ER that might prove to be safe and I believe had some IM residents moonlighting there would be the VA. No OB, no peds, lots of back up around if you get in a pickle. So, that’s an option too. Just think it all through before you jump.
In residency our ED would let us (FM residents) moonlight in the fast track area. IM would conceivably do that though the lack of peds could be troublesome. The hospitalist group allowed moonlighting, mainly overnight cross cover so their 1 nocturnist could focus on admissions.

Several folks did UC. I did disability exams and weekends at the psych hospital.
 
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The other cognitive dissonance of this forum:

1) ABEM BC/BE is the only acceptable training pathway for a person staffing an ED and calling themselves an emergency physician. Accept no substitutes. Certainly not a two year fellowship after FM. That's bogus.

2) If you are not moonlighting in PGY2 you are doing it wrong.

Which is it? Is residency training important or not? I think this kind of doublethink really undermines our position on what it means to be an emergency physician.
 
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The other cognitive dissonance of this forum:

1) ABEM BC/BE is the only acceptable training pathway for a person staffing an ED and calling themselves an emergency physician. Accept no substitutes. Certainly not a two year fellowship after FM. That's bogus.

2) If you are not moonlighting in PGY2 you are doing it wrong.

Which is it? Is residency training important or not? I think this kind of doublethink really undermines our position on what it means to be an emergency physician.

Most new PGY3 EM residents have done countless intubations, lines, chest tubes, at least a handful of crics on cadavers or in sim lab (or pt), delivered a few babies on their OB rotation and resuscitated many trauma/medical adults and kids and ran a heck of a lot of codes, etc.. I think this experience makes them decidedly better equipped to handle an ER. Look, it’s no secret that 90% of what we do can be done by just about anybody, but that 10% can burn you without experience. If an IM resident wants to take a chance, go for it, but I wouldn’t recommend it. I’d stick to comfortable territory. As for residents moonlighting, there’s always the risk of litigation or bad outcome. In an ideal world, it’s always better to wait until after residency to moonlight, but the lure of extra money for cash strapped residents is often too great. Most PDs are really very good at identifying which of their residents are competent to moonlight on their own, hence why you need to be cleared by your PD in the first place. In the end, I still think it’s really good experience. There’s a degree of polish that’s easily observed from graduating residents with moonlighting experience vs brand new grads who’ve never worked autonomously.

I’d be kind of curious though....would most IM and/or FM PD’s clear their residents to work in the ER on their own? I’d be honestly surprised if they did... As I said earlier though, VA ER might be a decent place. I remember that a lot of our residents couldn’t moonlight over there because it was fiercely protected by the IM residents and in hindsight...it’s not a bad place for someone with limited emergency experience. No OB, no peds and lots of backup a phone call and/or quick jog down the hallway away.
 
We aren’t allowed to moonlight at single coverage shops. Really limits our options. Protecting us I guess.
 
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The other cognitive dissonance of this forum:

1) ABEM BC/BE is the only acceptable training pathway for a person staffing an ED and calling themselves an emergency physician. Accept no substitutes. Certainly not a two year fellowship after FM. That's bogus.

2) If you are not moonlighting in PGY2 you are doing it wrong.

Which is it? Is residency training important or not? I think this kind of doublethink really undermines our position on what it means to be an emergency physician.

This is certainly not a popular opinion but many emergency physicians have a lot more in common with hospital administrators than they'd like to admit. At least in my experience if given the choice they'll often choose making money instead of doing the right thing for patients.
 
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Most new PGY3 EM residents have done countless intubations, lines, chest tubes, at least a handful of crics on cadavers or in sim lab (or pt), delivered a few babies on their OB rotation and resuscitated many trauma/medical adults and kids and ran a heck of a lot of codes, etc.. I think this experience makes them decidedly better equipped to handle an ER. Look, it’s no secret that 90% of what we do can be done by just about anybody, but that 10% can burn you without experience. If an IM resident wants to take a chance, go for it, but I wouldn’t recommend it. I’d stick to comfortable territory. As for residents moonlighting, there’s always the risk of litigation or bad outcome. In an ideal world, it’s always better to wait until after residency to moonlight, but the lure of extra money for cash strapped residents is often too great. Most PDs are really very good at identifying which of their residents are competent to moonlight on their own, hence why you need to be cleared by your PD in the first place. In the end, I still think it’s really good experience. There’s a degree of polish that’s easily observed from graduating residents with moonlighting experience vs brand new grads who’ve never worked autonomously.

I’d be kind of curious though....would most IM and/or FM PD’s clear their residents to work in the ER on their own? I’d be honestly surprised if they did... As I said earlier though, VA ER might be a decent place. I remember that a lot of our residents couldn’t moonlight over there because it was fiercely protected by the IM residents and in hindsight...it’s not a bad place for someone with limited emergency experience. No OB, no peds and lots of backup a phone call and/or quick jog down the hallway away.

This is absolutely true but the fundamental question is whether EM PGY-3s are ready to practice as independent emergency physicians?

There has to be a minimum training standard in place in order to practice independently and for EM its currently a 3 year residency.
 
Most new PGY3 EM residents have done countless intubations, lines, chest tubes, at least a handful of crics on cadavers or in sim lab (or pt), delivered a few babies on their OB rotation and resuscitated many trauma/medical adults and kids and ran a heck of a lot of codes, etc.. I think this experience makes them decidedly better equipped to handle an ER. Look, it’s no secret that 90% of what we do can be done by just about anybody, but that 10% can burn you without experience. If an IM resident wants to take a chance, go for it, but I wouldn’t recommend it. I’d stick to comfortable territory. As for residents moonlighting, there’s always the risk of litigation or bad outcome. In an ideal world, it’s always better to wait until after residency to moonlight, but the lure of extra money for cash strapped residents is often too great. Most PDs are really very good at identifying which of their residents are competent to moonlight on their own, hence why you need to be cleared by your PD in the first place. In the end, I still think it’s really good experience. There’s a degree of polish that’s easily observed from graduating residents with moonlighting experience vs brand new grads who’ve never worked autonomously.

I’d be kind of curious though....would most IM and/or FM PD’s clear their residents to work in the ER on their own? I’d be honestly surprised if they did... As I said earlier though, VA ER might be a decent place. I remember that a lot of our residents couldn’t moonlight over there because it was fiercely protected by the IM residents and in hindsight...it’s not a bad place for someone with limited emergency experience. No OB, no peds and lots of backup a phone call and/or quick jog down the hallway away.

Yes, I understand the whole point with our training being for the last 10%.

But what I am getting at is we can either hold the position that full residency training is required for someone to be considered an emergency physician competent to practice independently or it's not required. If we say that 2 years of EM residency training is enough then it becomes really hard to argue why 2 years of 'EM fellowship' after an FM residency are not enough. To be clear, I don't think that 2 years of EM residency are equivalent to 2 years of 'FM fellowship', but proving the difference can be hard. It is much more consistent to just hold the position that completion of residency training is required. BC/BE or bust.

For a specialty that has fought so hard for decades to define ourselves and our specialty's competencies, it seems a shame that so many are willing to erode that by accepting incompletely trained residents as substitutes for an emergency physician.
 
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