My Problem With Getting Into Pharmacy School. Please Read. Advice Needed.

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dbo259

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Hi all,

This is my first post and I believe my first time on SDN for quite some time now.

My story is a rather long and complicated one, which I will try to be as concise as possible with here, but I am in dire need of advice, and I don't think I can get any "real" answers from the resources that are available to me at the moment, so this is why I came here.

I am currently a senior who's about to embark on a 5th year to finish up a degree/concentration.

Currently, I am a Psychology/Pre-Pharmacy student and also double minoring in Chemistry and Philosophy. I am extremely nervous about my future (which has never happened before up until now) and I was wondering what are some options that are available to me that I can take advantage of while I still can.

But first, here is some important background info about me:

-1st gen student
-Family income is <= 60K
-Come from a small town of ~3000 people
-My class size was only 93 students (my school also did not have many resources for us to utilize like much larger schools do; for ex, we only had 2 AP classes. That was it.)
-Still made Top 10 of my H.S. Class though
-I am intensely idealistic and perfectionistic, I have extremely high standards for myself because of this. I'm also very hard on myself due to this as well.
-Currently a CPhT for CVS Pharmacy for about 1.5 years.
-Go to a Big 10, Research Intensive University
-A year of volunteering a Inpatient Pharmacy
-6 months of Chemical Research experience
-Oftentimes seen as a "quiet extrovert"
-Most importantly though, I have been struggling with Chronic Melancholic Depression ever since I was 13, ADD since my Freshman Year in college, and Mild-Moderate Anxiety as well. I have been formally diagnosed and on a regimen for about 2 years now. (My father was diagnosed with early-onset Bipolar 1 Disorder at 18).

-My career goal is to ultimately become a Psychiatric Clinical Pharmacist. I have a love for Psychopathology, Abnormal Psychology, Pharmacy, and Philosophy. I think it's a wonderful (albeit small and restrictive) career that kind of combines a little of everything of what I love and enjoy into one.


Let me talk you into how I've gotten up to this point so far and also address any pertinent issues along the way.

For most of my college career, I've been struggling with what it is that I've wanted to do with my life. It's been an extremely difficult 4 years here for me to say the least. To shorten matters a bit, it wasn't until the summer of my Junior year that I finally realized the entire time what it is I wanted to pursue and study. The past 3 years I spent trying out different avenues of academics all with no avail/success. First I was a CS major my freshman year, then switched to Chemistry for about 2 years (wanting to pursue Pharmaceuticals and then Forensic Science, but due to being only average in Organic Chem and hating the mundane life of academic research, these plans were also foreseeably scrapped too), then in 2nd semester of my Junior year, I had worked and switched everything around to now become a Psychology/Pre-Pharm Major and also minoring in Chemistry and Philosophy. The problem though (before making the switch finalized), was that even though I wanted to pursue pharmacy school, and a lot of my Chemistry courses at the time overlapped with the pre-pharmacy curriculum, I had not taken any bio prereqs up until that point since the Chemistry major didn't require any, meaning I had about 10 or so Bio courses in total to make up + other prereqs too (like physics and econ) + being able too fit my Psych/Phil courses in as well. This is where the 5th year comes into play. And yes, I am on track to graduate luckily by doing so.

Now, Bio is not my strongest subject, it is doable, but I don't particularly find all that fascinating, and since most pre-health professions are becoming ever more seriously based around the principles of molecular biology, biochemistry and physiology, it's been almost imperative that students perform nearly perfect in these subjects. I struggled the most with Cell Biology and did about average in all other bio courses (A/P, Microbio, Genetics, IB, and Biochem).

I have a particular problem with memorizing vast amounts of information, and being able to recall the extremely specific details of such processes. (I.e. How does Topoisomerase I aid in DNA Replication differently than Topoisomerase II?) Or knowing the Multi-Step Enzymatic Pathway of the Krebs Cycle Biochemically. It just bores me more than anything really. My ADD is a serious problem for focusing and attention control as is. I have much better understanding of the general concepts of the process, mechanisms, and reactions than I do the specificities.

Essentially, my Science GPA is abysmal at around a 2.4-2.5 (Most of my Bio grades are B-/C, but got D's in both Anatomy Labs; got a D+ in Physics II; Straight Cs in Calc I-III; Chemistry grades are good, all As and Bs except in OChem: C+ in I and C in II; All As in Psych/Phil courses so far).

My Transfer GPA is a 4.0

My overall has decreased steadily from around a 2.9 for 3 years too a now 2.6 in my 4th year.

-I'm also one of those oddballs that does poorly on exams, but still retains most of the information taught within classes. In college respectively. Whereas many of my friends have GPAs of like 3.4+ and do well on exams and classes, but have a very difficult time recalling information or explaining important concepts likewise. Quite peculiar.

And with the ending of this last semester of my 4th year, I've been placed on academic probation (my grades for the most part were more due to circumstance, and not to just pure intellectual capability alone), I need to retake a total of 3 prereqs for pharmacy school, my GPA has been significantly lowered, my mental, emotional, and physical health is deteriorating by the week, I'm losing self esteem and self confidence in myself, I don't have the time nor energy to keep taking classes every term (I am becoming burnt out academically), my personal life is a disaster, and I have to somehow re-configure priorities out in such a way that it somehow will boost my chances on getting in ultimately.

About my mental health and relationships during my 4 years here; well, having Melanchoic Depression is by far one of the worst experiences somebody could possibly go through. Every single day is a struggle. In a sense, I struggle intensely with who I am, who I want to be, who I want others to see me as, relationships with others be it romantic, familial, friendship, or professional. I find it very difficult to find meaning and purpose in my life, no matter how much greatness I've achieved. I have severe motivation issues (and plays a huge factor in how my grades roughly turn out). I feel mostly empty and anhedonic on a day to day basis, and I just feel miserable.

I have lost multiple best friends, my first love (which caused me to go through a major depressive episode that lasted for about 8 months), my grandmother, and practically everyone I once felt close too. This in turn has had serious detrimental effects on my mental and physical health as well as my emotional well being.

Currently, I live by myself, have virtually no close relationships in my life, am trying to maintain a job which is becoming increasingly stressful by the month, and all the while still attempting to study for my PCAT and at least finishing my degree before matters get any worse.

So while knowing the context of my situation, I know I am not ready to pursue Applications Cycle nor Pharmacy School at this point in time. So, what I was thinking was, possibly just finishing my degree and salvage as much of GPA while I still can, look at going into a Post-Bacc Enhancement program (retake those abysmal graded courses over again, gain some more insight, feel more personable, tell them of my story/situation, and hopefully just make the most of it.)

I am currently taking the summer off to just work and study for my PCAT in the meantime as well as to kind of just recoup and work on focusing on getting my mental health in better shape. I would still like to take my PCAT to kinda see where I'm at and what I still need improvement on, can't really hurt can it?

Well that's about it. What do you guys think? I apologize again for the length of this post, but I needed to put the context there in order for things to be put into perspective.

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Out of everything in your post, this jumped out at me:

I have a particular problem with memorizing vast amounts of information, and being able to recall the extremely specific details of such processes. (I.e. How does Topoisomerase I aid in DNA Replication differently than Topoisomerase II?) Or knowing the Multi-Step Enzymatic Pathway of the Krebs Cycle Biochemically. It just bores me more than anything really. My ADD is a serious problem for focusing and attention control as is. I have much better understanding of the general concepts of the process, mechanisms, and reactions than I do the specificities..

Memorizing vast amounts of information and retaining the specifics is what you will be expected to do in pharmacy school. Understanding the general concepts is nice, but general knowledge alone will not get you a passing grade in pharmacy school. Pharmacy is a detail-oriented field, and you won't succeed unless you find a way to learn and retain details. Forgive me for being blunt, but to me this is a big red flag that pharmacy is not the career for you. You have unique gifts and talents and there is some career out there you can succeed at, but from what you've posted here, I'm not convinced that pharmacy is it.

Finish undergrad, get your personal life back on track, get a treatment plan for your depression, ADD, and anxiety, and spend some time working. Once you get in a better headspace, you'll be better able to evaluate whether this is something you can be successful at or if you need to pursue a different dream.

Good luck.
 
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I have to agree with Dalteparin. I don't think Pharmacy would be a great fit for you.

First of all: a Psychiatric Clinical Pharmacist? Not really a position that you can find normally. It'd be EXTREMELY difficult to find such a position. Sure, you could work in a psychiatric hospital and occasionally answer consults from physicians, but none of the psych hospitals I know have clinical pharmacists.

But yes, memorizing lots of information in a small amount of time is basically what pharmacy school is. If you seem to be having trouble with doing this in undergrad, it's going to be five times worse in pharmacy school.

Lastly, if you're having trouble finding meaning in your life, I can assure you, pharmacy is not the career for you. While pharmacy services improve patient care and reduce errors, it is really not a *vital* service compared to physicians and nurses. I don't think a career in pharmacy will be able to fill whatever void you believe you have. Just focus on getting yourself together for now.
 
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Thank you for the honest opinions. I appreciate them.

I suppose I wish I found molecular biology, biochemistry, and physiology/pathophysiology more interesting than I do (and was better at it than I am), because I find the entire field of Pharmacy and Medications to be really fascinating and interesting, especially for psychotropic medications and psychopharmacology .

I'm currently reading a book on Psychopharmacology in preparation for the class I'm planning on taking in the Spring for it, and I just love it so far. And because of my work as a Pharmacy Tech/Pre-Pharm student, I already have a basic understanding of most drug indications/names/schedules/dependence and tolerance liabilities/ADME processes/even classes to an extent. I also possess the background knowledge to understand drug MOAs (at a basic biochemical/neurological level) as well. Even some chemical structures and their chemical/physical properties too.

I love to learn, knowledge is something that I'm very passionate about. And something I take seriously.

My specific academic interests personally are in:

Mental Health, Psychopathology, Philosophy of the Mind, Philosophy of Science, Cognitive Science, Psychopharmacology, Abnormal Psychology, and Moral Psychology.

Ive been looking into careers that combine aspects of Pharmacy, Psychology, Philosophy, Cognitive Science and Psychiatry to an extent, however, as I'm sure you know, not many such careers exist to statisfy all these interests of mine unfortunately.

This is why I had the idea of becoming a Psychiatric Clinical Pharmacist. Because it came to as close as a profession that contained all my interests respectively. And why I've wanted to pursue Pharmacy School likewise. Even if findings weren't as extensive as I may have hoped for.

-Psychiatry is out of the question for me as well.

1) The profession (like pharmacy) isn't what it used to be

2) I don't particularly subscribe to the Biological Reductionist viewpoint that I'm sure quite a lot of American Psychiatrists/Schools/Residencies do (due to their strong ties to the fields of neuroscience and neuropsychiatry, no matter how much schools may stress a Biopsychosocial Model likewise....if this is the case of course). I find that this would be deeply problematic for me on a personal and philosophical level as far as values are concerned. I take a more Systems valued approach personally respectfully. I know some can just take and accept things as they are, for what they are, but I am just not one of those people unfortunately.

3) I guess I am just not interested in Pathophysiology as much as I am Psychopathology, even though I'm well aware that there is considerable overlap between the two. This is obviously problematic given the significant length and difficulty of the road to Psychiatry for me to take on if I ever felt doubtful about myself and my capabilities/limitations/values/perspectives

I guess I am just unsure what I can even pursue as a career given my interests and limitations. There seems to be no middle ground here unfortunately, and that bothers me severely.

Any advice on some possible next steps to take/look into given the information you know about me and my situation now? I would greatly appreciate some more input if possible. Thanks.
 
Any advice on some possible next steps to take/look into given the information you know about me and my situation now? I would greatly appreciate some more input if possible. Thanks.

Re-reading your post, I'm not sure that now is the best time for you to try to discern The Career You Will Have Forever. (Side note: hardly anybody has their career forever anymore.) You talked about a GPA that's not great, an undergrad degree you're trying to finish, and a personal life that's a mess. Honestly, you seem like you're in a really dark place right now, and that's a bad time to make big life decisions. Go down to your school's counseling center and get some therapy, get a treatment plan for your psychological issues. You need to focus on getting healthy and finishing your degree. Pharmacy school or grad school or whatever you decide to do next will still be there when you do. When you get closer to graduation, go to your school's career center and read career advice blogs like AskAManager.com to help you learn more about what careers suit you.
 
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Hi all,

I am currently taking the summer off to just work and study for my PCAT in the meantime as well as to kind of just recoup and work on focusing on getting my mental health in better shape. I would still like to take my PCAT to kinda see where I'm at and what I still need improvement on, can't really hurt can it?


Struggling with depression will not help you perform optimally in your last courses and improve your GPA. I would go so far as to say take an academic leave of absence from your primary university and recover in a comfortable place such as home. During that time, without fear of catastrophe, you can make an attempt to work, finish or redo prerequisites at a community college, and study for the PCAT. The ultimate goal is to stabilize yourself and make small confidence boosting steps that also polish your application. From your position of greater strength, you can tackle finishing your degree and going through an admission cycle. You'll be putting off pharmacy school for about three years but the quality of applicants should drop even more precipitously by then and you'll have a greater chance of emerging with a PharmD in a market that has corrected for oversupply.
 
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Even some chemical structures and their chemical/physical properties too.
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Thanks for all the replies guys. Having some much time thinking things over (and have been for the past 6 months or so seriously), and talking to a few key people (my family, my doctor, the dean of my college, and of my good lecturers I had for a Psychology course) about my situation and kind of where I intend on going to next, I think I've decided ultimately not to pursue pharmacy as I had intended to do for the past 2.5 years or so.

Taking all of what has been said into consideration, I think it would be wise and practical not to beat myself up too much over what has happened in my experience thus far. And it's been this experience that I've had, even though it hasn't been the easiest of roads, that has led me up to this point specifically.

I think what would be best for me is to just finish up me degree in Psychology, maintain as high as a GPA as I can within these courses respectively, and then take some time off from academia to better my mental health, well being, etc.

I think what I ultimately want to end up doing though is pursue a PsyD in Clinical Psychology and perhaps, if it is plausible, a Post-Doc Masters Program in Psychopharmacology. I know it's still a long road to head down, but I've already come this far in my educational career, I don't have thoughts of giving up on myself either anytime soon. If I have to do some sort of enhancement program to nurture my GPA or get an internship or just more experience within the field before continuing forward, I will do so. Thanks again. Much appreciated as always.
 
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Hope everything works out!
 
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If my GPA is around a 3.4 and my PCAT is at a 55, do you think I can get into pharmacy school? I do have some shadowing and working experience.

I want to apply to Rosalind Franklin, University of Pitt, and University of Illinois

What made you think this particular thread was an appropriate place to jump in and ask about your admittance chances?
 
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Thanks for all the replies guys. Having some much time thinking things over (and have been for the past 6 months or so seriously), and talking to a few key people (my family, my doctor, the dean of my college, and of my good lecturers I had for a Psychology course) about my situation and kind of where I intend on going to next, I think I've decided ultimately not to pursue pharmacy as I had intended to do for the past 2.5 years or so.

Taking all of what has been said into consideration, I think it would be wise and practical not to beat myself up too much over what has happened in my experience thus far. And it's been this experience that I've had, even though it hasn't been the easiest of roads, that has led me up to this point specifically.

I think what would be best for me is to just finish up me degree in Psychology, maintain as high as a GPA as I can within these courses respectively, and then take some time off from academia to better my mental health, well being, etc.

I think what I ultimately want to end up doing though is pursue a PsyD in Clinical Psychology and perhaps, if it is plausible, a Post-Doc Masters Program in Psychopharmacology. I know it's still a long road to head down, but I've already come this far in my educational career, I don't have thoughts of giving up on myself either anytime soon. If I have to do some sort of enhancement program to nurture my GPA or get an internship or just more experience within the field before continuing forward, I will do so. Thanks again. Much appreciated as always.

Just so you know, one of the number one reasons people fail out of pharmacy school is due to mood instability... since you are having severe problems with depression and anxiety I would stay clear of pharmacy.
 
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I have to agree with Dalteparin. I don't think Pharmacy would be a great fit for you.

First of all: a Psychiatric Clinical Pharmacist? Not really a position that you can find normally. It'd be EXTREMELY difficult to find such a position. Sure, you could work in a psychiatric hospital and occasionally answer consults from physicians, but none of the psych hospitals I know have clinical pharmacists.

But yes, memorizing lots of information in a small amount of time is basically what pharmacy school is. If you seem to be having trouble with doing this in undergrad, it's going to be five times worse in pharmacy school.

Lastly, if you're having trouble finding meaning in your life, I can assure you, pharmacy is not the career for you. While pharmacy services improve patient care and reduce errors, it is really not a *vital* service compared to physicians and nurses. I don't think a career in pharmacy will be able to fill whatever void you believe you have. Just focus on getting yourself together for now.

My hospital has a psych unit and we have a clinical pharmacist that stays on that unit for patient and doctor consults. The title is Psychiatric clinical pharmacist, actually. I don't know if they have them in a hospital that's only for psychiatric units, but its the same job if she wants to do that. The pharmacy field is really expanding with specialties. I've worked with our emergency and pediatric pharmacists who have direct patient care, and they're definitely a great asset. So, her job goal can be rewarding for her.
 
My hospital has a psych unit and we have a clinical pharmacist that stays on that unit for patient and doctor consults. The title is Psychiatric clinical pharmacist, actually. I don't know if they have them in a hospital that's only for psychiatric units, but its the same job if she wants to do that. The pharmacy field is really expanding with specialties. I've worked with our emergency and pediatric pharmacists who have direct patient care, and they're definitely a great asset. So, her job goal can be rewarding for her.
This is not a personal attack on you, but I need to set things straight.

What kind of institution is this? And what is your basis for your claims?

I just checked the USAJOBS website, and there is ONE psychiatric clinical pharmacist position open. ONE.

I searched for Psychiatric NP, Psychiatric PA, Psychiatric Social Worker, and Psychologist on the same website. There were easily more than a dozen job openings for each specialty.

There is a mental health crisis in this country. The VA, IHS, and rural areas are in short supply of mental health experts. If clinical psychiatric pharmacists were seen as useful in combating this shortage, then these government agencies would be going hand over heel to recruiting psychiatric clinical pharmacists.

But they don't.


Because clinical psychiatric pharmacists are experimental positions. They haven't proven their worth. And the services they render can be more cheaply provided by a NP/PA/LCSW/PsyD. I've seen clinical psychiatric pharmacists being implemented in very limited settings (mostly academic institutions).

I've seen pre-pharmers and clinical pharmacist rave about how clinical pharmacists are an important asset to the healthcare team/hospital/whatever. In one thread, a bunch of clinical pharmacists raved about how awesome clinical ED pharmacists were, while the more experience ED physicians disagreed. Guess what? An empirical study just came out a few months ago, and it found that having a clinical ED pharmacist had negligible benefits for improving clinical outcomes.

Impact of a Clinical Pharmacy Specialist in an Emergency Department for Seniors.

So, please don't spout this pie-in-the-sky, dream-world stuff that the pharmacy schools and pharmacy organizations churn out in their newsletters. These position have to be vetted before they are even considered for adoption by the healthcare community.
 
This is not a personal attack on you, but I need to set things straight.

What kind of institution is this? And what is your basis for your claims?

I just checked the USAJOBS website, and there is ONE psychiatric clinical pharmacist position open. ONE.

I searched for Psychiatric NP, Psychiatric PA, Psychiatric Social Worker, and Psychologist on the same website. There were easily more than a dozen job openings for each specialty.

There is a mental health crisis in this country. The VA, IHS, and rural areas are in short supply of mental health experts. If clinical psychiatric pharmacists were seen as useful in combating this shortage, then these government agencies would be going hand over heel to recruiting psychiatric clinical pharmacists.

But they don't.


Because clinical psychiatric pharmacists are experimental positions. They haven't proven their worth. And the services they render can be more cheaply provided by a NP/PA/LCSW/PsyD. I've seen clinical psychiatric pharmacists being implemented in very limited settings (mostly academic institutions).

I've seen pre-pharmers and clinical pharmacist rave about how clinical pharmacists are an important asset to the healthcare team/hospital/whatever. In one thread, a bunch of clinical pharmacists raved about how awesome clinical ED pharmacists were, while the more experience ED physicians disagreed. Guess what? An empirical study just came out a few months ago, and it found that having a clinical ED pharmacist had negligible benefits for improving clinical outcomes.

Impact of a Clinical Pharmacy Specialist in an Emergency Department for Seniors.

So, please don't spout this pie-in-the-sky, dream-world stuff that the pharmacy schools and pharmacy organizations churn out in their newsletters. These position have to be vetted before they are even considered for adoption by the healthcare community.

Every hospital is going to be different. Specialty areas are still growing, and they're adding more with board certifications. The reason they're not advertised could be exactly what you wrote, that they're experimenting. They call it Behavioral Health clinical pharmacist. We have a psychiatric unit, and they have a pharmacist that stays on the unit to help with consults. I work at 3 hospitals and it seems they put pharmacists and make positions as there becomes a need. So some hospitals won't have it and others will. We're not the way MD specialties are yet, but one day it might get there.
 
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