Need for USMLE Step II?

[JSandall]

Hi everyone,

Is there any reason for D.O.s who are planning on applying to allopathic gas programs to take the USMLE step II in addition to COMLEX step II (assuming they took USMLE step I and did well)? I would really like to save the money if possible. Appreciate your input.

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[Anonymity]

It is troubling that so many people fail to gain admission to US allopathic medical schools, only to run an end around and hop back into the allopathic medicine pathway during residency. These are people who I honestly think are as smart and capable as many of my allopathic classmates, but never put in the effort to get the grades or scores to gain admission to an allopathic program in the US. This group of uninspired underachievers hoping to largely bypass the arduous task of completing an American allopathic education is rightly branded with the marking of DO and forbidden the prestige of calling themselves MD. They should further be required to call themselves osteopathy sudents and not medical students.

This thread is a perfect example… why should you take USMLE Step II? Why put in a full effort when a half effort has served you so well thus far? You disgust me and many of my peers as you masquerade yourself as a Medical Doctor to patients who never understand your sub-par credentials. Stay true to your word… when you interviewed for your Doctor of Osteopathy program did you exclaim how you would abandon the field the first chance you got to rejoin the allopathic field, or did you lie and tell tales of how you had always wanted to learn Osteopathic techniques and practice Osteopathy? You are no better than the so-called US-IMG group that traveled abroad for a “medical education”.

US-IMG is another uninspired group of underachievers that should be exposed as such whenever a patient seeks medical attention. It is an insult for you to share my title and it makes my blood boil every time I learn more of your pathetic education in the Caribbean or wherever. I group DO and all IMG physicians together and would encourage my elected representatives to pass federal or individual state laws barring them all from entering any residency that wasn’t Primary Care. After completing such programs an additional requirement to practice in under served areas lacking PCPs, such as free clinics in rural and urban areas should be imposed for a minimum of 4 years. After meeting these service requirements, then they could apply to specialty residency programs.

 

[into_bait]

Hi everyone,

Is there any reason for D.O.s who are planning on applying to allopathic gas programs to take the USMLE step II in addition to COMLEX step II (assuming they took USMLE step I and did well)? I would really like to save the money if possible. Appreciate your input.

Maybe I am just ignorant but... you should take Step II since most people don't know what the COMLEX is or know what a good score is.

 

[JSandall]

It is troubling that so many people fail to gain admission to US allopathic medical schools, only to run an end around and hop back into the allopathic medicine pathway during residency. These are people who I honestly think are as smart and capable as many of my allopathic classmates, but never put in the effort to get the grades or scores to gain admission to an allopathic program in the US. This group of uninspired underachievers hoping to largely bypass the arduous task of completing an American allopathic education is rightly branded with the marking of DO and forbidden the prestige of calling themselves MD. They should further be required to call themselves osteopathy sudents and not medical students.

This thread is a perfect example… why should you take USMLE Step II? Why put in a full effort when a half effort has served you so well thus far? You disgust me and many of my peers as you masquerade yourself as a Medical Doctor to patients who never understand your sub-par credentials. Stay true to your word… when you interviewed for your Doctor of Osteopathy program did you exclaim how you would abandon the field the first chance you got to rejoin the allopathic field, or did you lie and tell tales of how you had always wanted to learn Osteopathic techniques and practice Osteopathy? You are no better than the so-called US-IMG group that traveled abroad for a “medical education”.

US-IMG is another uninspired group of underachievers that should be exposed as such whenever a patient seeks medical attention. It is an insult for you to share my title and it makes my blood boil every time I learn more of your pathetic education in the Caribbean or wherever. I group DO and all IMG physicians together and would encourage my elected representatives to pass federal or individual state laws barring them all from entering any residency that wasn’t Primary Care. After completing such programs an additional requirement to practice in under served areas lacking PCPs, such as free clinics in rural and urban areas should be imposed for a minimum of 4 years. After meeting these service requirements, then they could apply to specialty residency programs.

Funny, but I'm not taking the bait. Anyone else have any input? (jet, vent, etc.)

 

[Idiopathic]

I havent needed USMLE Step II. I took and passed COMLEX II since interviews, but have never had it suggested (nor have I felt that I should) that I take USMLE.

(edited to avoid fanning the fire)

 

[avanb803]

It is troubling that so many people fail to gain admission to US allopathic medical schools, only to run an end around and hop back into the allopathic medicine pathway during residency. These are people who I honestly think are as smart and capable as many of my allopathic classmates, but never put in the effort to get the grades or scores to gain admission to an allopathic program in the US. This group of uninspired underachievers hoping to largely bypass the arduous task of completing an American allopathic education is rightly branded with the marking of DO and forbidden the prestige of calling themselves MD. They should further be required to call themselves osteopathy sudents and not medical students.

This thread is a perfect example… why should you take USMLE Step II? Why put in a full effort when a half effort has served you so well thus far? You disgust me and many of my peers as you masquerade yourself as a Medical Doctor to patients who never understand your sub-par credentials. Stay true to your word… when you interviewed for your Doctor of Osteopathy program did you exclaim how you would abandon the field the first chance you got to rejoin the allopathic field, or did you lie and tell tales of how you had always wanted to learn Osteopathic techniques and practice Osteopathy? You are no better than the so-called US-IMG group that traveled abroad for a “medical education”.

US-IMG is another uninspired group of underachievers that should be exposed as such whenever a patient seeks medical attention. It is an insult for you to share my title and it makes my blood boil every time I learn more of your pathetic education in the Caribbean or wherever. I group DO and all IMG physicians together and would encourage my elected representatives to pass federal or individual state laws barring them all from entering any residency that wasn’t Primary Care. After completing such programs an additional requirement to practice in under served areas lacking PCPs, such as free clinics in rural and urban areas should be imposed for a minimum of 4 years. After meeting these service requirements, then they could apply to specialty residency programs.

Wow you are so right! I also think that DOs should wear pink coats and bow down every time the far superior MDs walk past them in the halls. Maybe bow down to dentists and optometrist too because they are such scum You're such a half-witt, I have no doubt that your pre-med program is embarrassed to have you at their school.

 

[Anonymity]

Wow you are so right! I also think that DOs should wear pink coats and bow down every time the far superior MDs walk past them in the halls. Maybe bow down to dentists and optometrist too because they are such scum You're such a half-witt, I have no doubt that your pre-med program is embarrassed to have you at their school.

Well, I'm not persuaded by your agrument. But, you are entitled to express yourself in anyway. Are you a DO or an IMG? What were your reasons for going to an Osteopathy program? What where your MCAT scores? Publications? Experience before med school? Undergrad school?

My premed and med school programs were both Ivy League (Harvard and then PENN for the MD/PhD dual degree) and I worked hard to get through them on the top of my class.

Why should far less qualified applicants that didn't reach my level of success be allowed to impersonate someone of my qualification? I'm not saying DOs and IMGs kill patients, but it is my experience that they know far, far less than people I will graduate with, where the average USMLE scores are 240. Think about it... who would you want taking care of your kid? The person who never got over a 26 on the MCAT, never over a 210 on the USMLE, or the person who cracked a 41 on the MCAT and over a 250 on boths steps of the USMLE?

I'm simply saying that less qualified Doctors should be allowed to practice less complicated medicine (Primary Care) until they prove themselves and repay society for being sub-par. Why not afford healthcare consumers the right to know where Docotrs fall in relation to each other? Rank them openly, wear your DO and FMG titles on your white coats and start out by explaining that you couldn't gain acceptance to a US allopathic med school, because of grades, or scores, or you didn't feel like working that hard, but you'll try now that you finished your "med school" and their life is in your hands. Let your patient decide if you deserve the trust you now command based on my reputation and credentials, as you impersonate US allopathic grades every time you don't correct people who refer to you as doctor.

 

[Jalopycat]

Well, I'm not persuaded by your agrument. But, you are entitled to express yourself in anyway. Are you a DO or an IMG? What were your reasons for going to an Osteopathy program? What where your MCAT scores? Publications? Experience before med school? Undergrad school?

My premed and med school programs were both Ivy League (Harvard and then PENN for the MD/PhD dual degree) and I worked hard to get through them on the top of my class.

Why should far less qualified applicants that didn't reach my level of success be allowed to impersonate someone of my qualification? I'm not saying DOs and IMGs kill patients, but it is my experience that they know far, far less than people I will graduate with, where the average USMLE scores are 240. Think about it... who would you want taking care of your kid? The person who never got over a 26 on the MCAT, never over a 210 on the USMLE, or the person who cracked a 41 on the MCAT and over a 250 on boths steps of
the USMLE?

I'm simply saying that less qualified Doctors should be allowed to practice less complicated medicine (Primary Care) until they prove themselves and repay society for being sub-par. Why not afford healthcare consumers the right to know where Docotrs fall in relation to each other? Rank them openly, wear your DO and FMG titles on your white coats and start out by explaining that you couldn't gain acceptance to a US allopathic med school, because of grades, or scores, or you didn't feel like working that hard, but you'll try now that you finished your "med school" and their life is in your hands. Let your patient decide if you deserve the trust you now command based on my reputation and credentials, as you impersonate US allopathic grades every time you don't correct people who refer to you as doctor.

You are absolutely right. From now on, whenever I visit my personal physician, I'm going to be sure and ask up front what his MCAT was, since everybody knows that's the best predictor of what kind of physician one will be. Thank you for enlightening me.

 

[pgg]

I'll probably regret feeding you.

Does your negative opinion of DOs extend to the ones who take and score high on the USMLE?

If so, why? If not, is there a minimum score they can attain to rise above their uninspired underachiever status?

 

[avanb803]

Well, I'm not persuaded by your agrument. But, you are entitled to express yourself in anyway. Are you a DO or an IMG? What were your reasons for going to an Osteopathy program? What where your MCAT scores? Publications? Experience before med school? Undergrad school?

My premed and med school programs were both Ivy League (Harvard and then PENN for the MD/PhD dual degree) and I worked hard to get through them on the top of my class.

Why should far less qualified applicants that didn't reach my level of success be allowed to impersonate someone of my qualification? I'm not saying DOs and IMGs kill patients, but it is my experience that they know far, far less than people I will graduate with, where the average USMLE scores are 240. Think about it... who would you want taking care of your kid? The person who never got over a 26 on the MCAT, never over a 210 on the USMLE, or the person who cracked a 41 on the MCAT and over a 250 on boths steps of the USMLE?

I'm simply saying that less qualified Doctors should be allowed to practice less complicated medicine (Primary Care) until they prove themselves and repay society for being sub-par. Why not afford healthcare consumers the right to know where Docotrs fall in relation to each other? Rank them openly, wear your DO and FMG titles on your white coats and start out by explaining that you couldn't gain acceptance to a US allopathic med school, because of grades, or scores, or you didn't feel like working that hard, but you'll try now that you finished your "med school" and their life is in your hands. Let your patient decide if you deserve the trust you now command based on my reputation and credentials, as you impersonate US allopathic grades every time you don't correct people who refer to you as doctor.

Yeah, I'm a DO. And I admit that there are some DOs that couldn't get in anywhere else. I am not one of them since I had in-state allopathic acceptance and out of state osteopathic acceptance. I chose osteopathic because I thought those arrogant yet ignorant thoughts were all but gone and I also wanted to go out of the state. I'm not going to claim to be the MOST qualified applicant seeing that I did not get a 41 on my MCAT, had an extremely low USMLE of 230... but qualified to gain acceptance into allopathic. Now do you discriminate against MD students who were not Ivy league? Because I promise you that most allopathic schools don't have MCAT averages of 41 or USMLE 240. I understand your point about how DOs should jump through the same hoops to be considered equals, but some of us do just that. A 230 and getting honors at clinical sites where UVA allopathic student rotate will allow me to match at an allopathic site, so I consider myself qualified. The DOs out there in the competitive specialties are there because they worked for it. Good luck finding any who just took COMLEX or got a 185 on USMLE in fields like Ophtha or Anesth. In answer to the question post, I would take USMLE II... if for no other reason than to give people like this one less reason to crap on you. Funny how everyone in an online forum is beautiful and ivy league!

 

[ear-ache]

Funny, but I'm not taking the bait.

 

[Idiopathic]

My premed and med school programs were both Ivy League (Harvard and then PENN for the MD/PhD dual degree) and I worked hard to get through them on the top of my class.

Thank God Penn MD/PHD's dont have anything better to do. I was getting bored. Do you think he's mad that several of us DO's beat his Step I score? What's it like going to Harvard and then slumming it down in Philly. That has to hurt. Must be because of Harvard taking some underrepresented minority and stealing your spot

 

[dizzypie]

You seem so in touch with the real world. Maybe you should screen your patients to make sure they are also up to par. Perhaps you can weed out everyone who is not Ivy league. BTW--at my Osteopathic school we had a guy from Harvard who barely made it through his first year.

 

[ThinkFast007]

......
US-IMG is another uninspired group of underachievers that should be exposed as such whenever a patient seeks medical attention. It is an insult for you to share my title and it makes my blood boil every time I learn more of your pathetic education in the Caribbean or wherever. I group DO and all IMG physicians together and would encourage my elected representatives to pass federal or individual state laws barring them all from entering any residency that wasn’t Primary Care. After completing such programs an additional requirement to practice in under served areas lacking PCPs, such as free clinics in rural and urban areas should be imposed for a minimum of 4 years. After meeting these service requirements, then they could apply to specialty residency programs.

I'm a US allo grad. And perhaps my USMLEs werent the best but I got to where I am today.

I wont go into too much detail here. But Anonymity you do bring a good point out about titles. I agree w/ you in the sense that if you are a DO or "US-IMG" it should be made known. I mean Anonymity is right, it's the path that you all decided to take and probably did proclaim your love for the field when you all had your admissions interviews.

Personally, what I find disturbing is when DOs, etc try to use the title "Dr." to cover up DO. I mean if you are DO you should gladly/sadly (pick your poison) state that you are one...not try to cover it up. I just know too many DOs/IMGs that have had simply "Dr. Joe Smith" written on their lab coats when everyone else had written Joe Smith, MD (ie their actual degree) written. To me, that's similar to when the optometrist, podiatrist, or even acupuncturist (sp) tries to command respect equal to a MDs.

I just believe, if you chose a path you should stick to it and admit to it, not try to hide behind a title. I mean heck even pharmacists now want to be called "Dr" w/ their knewly acquired PharmD degrees. I thoroughly believe that pharmacists are just that, pharmacists. It's been posted on this forum before as well...pharmacists w/ the title 'Dr' is just too dangerous in a society where lay people equate the word "Dr" w/ physician. Not sure how many of you are aware of this but pharmacies are now trying to take the roll of primary care docs (checking blood sugars, blood pressure, heck in a few years why even need a medical doctor, just go to a pharmacist!). It's getting out of control. Not to sound bitter, but hey I think the general public is misinformed when it comes to health care and they just go w/ the flow...a doctor is a medical doctor in their minds. Additionally, the bad rep that MDs are getting these days could be partially due to these pharamacists, podiatrists, optometrists, and acupuncturists who go beyond their area of expertise and do so in the name of being a 'doctor'.

 

[Dr Lecter]

I mean heck even pharmacists now want to be called "Dr" w/ their knewly acquired PharmD degrees. I thoroughly believe that pharmacists are just that, pharmacists. It's been posted on this forum before as well...pharmacists w/ the title 'Dr' is just too dangerous in a society where lay people equate the word "Dr" w/ physician.

Maybe I should write emails to my professors from undergrad and tell them that they aren't real doctors because they aren't physicians. Nevermind the extensive schooling they've had, that doesn't make them experts or anything.

 

[avanb803]

I'm a US allo grad. And perhaps my USMLEs werent the best but I got to where I am today.

I wont go into too much detail here. But Anonymity you do bring a good point out about titles. I agree w/ you in the sense that if you are a DO or "US-IMG" it should be made known. I mean Anonymity is right, it's the path that you all decided to take and probably did proclaim your love for the field when you all had your admissions interviews.

Personally, what I find disturbing is when DOs, etc try to use the title "Dr." to cover up DO. I mean if you are DO you should gladly/sadly (pick your poison) state that you are one...not try to cover it up. I just know too many DOs/IMGs that have had simply "Dr. Joe Smith" written on their lab coats when everyone else had written Joe Smith, MD (ie their actual degree) written. To me, that's similar to when the optometrist, podiatrist, or even acupuncturist (sp) tries to command respect equal to a MDs.

I just believe, if you chose a path you should stick to it and admit to it, not try to hide behind a title. I mean heck even pharmacists now want to be called "Dr" w/ their knewly acquired PharmD degrees. I thoroughly believe that pharmacists are just that, pharmacists. It's been posted on this forum before as well...pharmacists w/ the title 'Dr' is just too dangerous in a society where lay people equate the word "Dr" w/ physician. Not sure how many of you are aware of this but pharmacies are now trying to take the roll of primary care docs (checking blood sugars, blood pressure, heck in a few years why even need a medical doctor, just go to a pharmacist!). It's getting out of control. Not to sound bitter, but hey I think the general public is misinformed when it comes to health care and they just go w/ the flow...a doctor is a medical doctor in their minds. Additionally, the bad rep that MDs are getting these days could be partially due to these pharamacists, podiatrists, optometrists, and acupuncturists who go beyond their area of expertise and do so in the name of being a 'doctor'.

The general public is misinformed??? Maybe you should worry about informing yourself before you worry about the general public. Bottom line is that I'll jump through all the same hoops you do and more. I will be doing the same job as you do but better. I'll be making the same amount of money as you do. I'll have the same respect but there will be one difference... I won't be a bitter arrogant prick who went into medicine for the prestige of being called "DR."

 

[rugtrousers]

And after all that love I gave you all in the other thread! Come, now.

Does anyone other than Idio have an answer for the OP?

 

[Anonymity]

Bottom line is that I'll jump through all the same hoops you do and more. I will be doing the same job as you do but better. I'll be making the same amount of money as you do. I'll have the same respect...

I promise that if at any point in your life any of this was true that you would not be looking forward to receiving a Doctor of Osteopathy degree in the next few months. You could not be further from the truth when you try to compare yourself to me and arrive at the conclusion that we are equals or you come out on top.

IVY LEAGUE SCHOOLS DON'T HAVE OSTEOPATHY PROGRAMS

The fact of the matter is that if you go to any IMG or DO program you spend all your time "studying for the boards" and may approach or beat allopathic student scores... The whole time no US allopathic program focuses on boards and we are as a whole much more sought after than DO or IMG grads. FOR A LEGITIMATE REASON! EVERYTHING ABOUT US ALLOPATHIC TRAINING IS SUPERIOR TO DO AND IMG TRAINING.


Why doesn't any DO student dispute that they couldn't get in at US allopathic institutions? Where is the majority of DO and IMG students claiming that they turned down 5, 6, 7 US allopathic schools to pursue their dream as an Osteopathic practitioner or a IMG study pathway.

I am not the best medical student ever to walk along my path, I know this and accept it. Why do IMG and DO students not accept their place as inferior to US allopathic grads? DENIAL is more than a river in Africa.

 

[Sugar72]

Hi everyone,

Is there any reason for D.O.s who are planning on applying to allopathic gas programs to take the USMLE step II in addition to COMLEX step II (assuming they took USMLE step I and did well)? I would really like to save the money if possible. Appreciate your input.

I am a DO (ms4!) and took both sets of step 1 and 2. Have a friend applying for EM and one of his programs wants usmle step 2. Most of my friends who have taken USMLE step 1 have gone ahead and takes step 2. A lot of people (allo and osteo) don't take their required step 2 until after interview season if they did really well on step 1.
I personally have done better on USMLE vs COMLEX on both step one and step 2 so if you are a good test taker I would take both if I were you especially if you are planning on applying to allo residencies in a competitive field.
ps idio had a ridiculously awesome step 1 score so he doesn't have to sweat submitting a step 2 to look good at his programs!

 

[Sugar72]

I love the ignore button....could you guys replying to Anon not include his posts in your replies so I can completely ignore him/her. Thanks!

 

[Anonymity]

Thank God Penn MD/PHD's dont have anything better to do. I was getting bored. Do you think he's mad that several of us DO's beat his Step I score? What's it like going to Harvard and then slumming it down in Philly. That has to hurt. Must be because of Harvard taking some underrepresented minority and stealing your spot

1) My Step II is lower than my Step I. I hit 258 on Step II and got a letter from NBME after Step I.

2) URMs are welcome at both institutions, but they get no slack. Fail exams and you are shown the door. So, don't lump URMs in with DOs and IMGs. Hard workers are hard workers.

3) PENN was my choice over Harvard. As in, I was accepted to both and picked the MD/PhD at PENN.

4) Are you an average student at your DO school? I'm above average, but not the best student. I run with the top 10% of my class, about average in that group with the next 10% at our heels. Is 10-20% of your class in your league? Or are you the exception people will talk about for years at your ...-COM?

 

[avanb803]

I promise that if at any point in your life any of this was true that you would not be looking forward to receiving a Doctor of Osteopathy degree in the next few months. You could not be further from the truth when you try to compare yourself to me and arrive at the conclusion that we are equals or you come out on top.

IVY LEAGUE SCHOOLS DON'T HAVE OSTEOPATHY PROGRAMS

The fact of the matter is that if you go to any IMG or DO program you spend all your time "studying for the boards" and may approach or beat allopathic student scores... The whole time no US allopathic program focuses on boards and we are as a whole much more sought after than DO or IMG grads. FOR A LEGITIMATE REASON! EVERYTHING ABOUT US ALLOPATHIC TRAINING IS SUPERIOR TO DO AND IMG TRAINING.


Why doesn't any DO student dispute that they couldn't get in at US allopathic institutions? Where is the majority of DO and IMG students claiming that they turned down 5, 6, 7 US allopathic schools to pursue their dream as an Osteopathic practitioner or a IMG study pathway.

I am not the best medical student ever to walk along my path, I know this and accept it. Why do IMG and DO students not accept their place as inferior to US allopathic grads? DENIAL is more than a river in Africa.

How many DO schools have you attended to know how inferior they are? I really pray that you are an obnoxious pre-med because it's disheartening to think that anyone with half a brain is that full of themself. Here's how it works and I'm leaving it alone after this. DOs get the same pay as MDs, do the same jobs and are both treating patients... therefore are DOCTORS. Some DOs are not as good as MDs, some are better than MDs. It depends on the person, not on the letters after their name. Your stereotypes are ignorant and I hope it doesn't care over to other views you have. It's more than prestige that defines how good you are. People will see your giant head coming a mile away and we'll see how sought after a supposed ivy league degree is attached to a person with zero personality. Topic closed for me, now go back to your organic chemistry.
Vent can you please tell me if this kind of obnoxious ignorance ends when you get to residency?

 

[Idiopathic]

1) My Step II is lower than my Step I. I hit 258 on Step II and got a letter from NBME after Step I.

2) URMs are welcome at both institutions, but they get no slack. Fail exams and you are shown the door. So, don't lump URMs in with DOs and IMGs. Hard workers are hard workers.

3) PENN was my choice over Harvard. As in, I was accepted to both and picked the MD/PhD at PENN.

4) Are you an average student at your DO school? I'm above average, but not the best student. I run with the top 10% of my class, about average in that group with the next 10% at our heels. Is 10-20% of your class in your league? Or are you the exception people will talk about for years at your ...-COM?

Heres what I can guarantee you.

You know about 20% of what you think you do, when it comes to other people.

My clinical skills are, at the worst, equivalent to yours.

I will be a physician, same as you, with a training program, likely of equal stature, will achieve the same level of competency, and will make as much (or more) money, and positively impact as many (or more) patients lives.

You probably have a heads-up on me when it comes to basic sciences, since you have a PhD, but I am a bartender, musician, father and funny, funny guy. I doubt you can claim half of that.




All of the above would be true regardless of where I went to school, and would likely be true regardless of where you went to school.

Chew on that, sister.

 

[no oxygen]

Heres what I can guarantee you.

You know about 20% of what you think you do, when it comes to other people.

My clinical skills are, at the worst, equivalent to yours.

I will be a physician, same as you, with a training program, likely of equal stature, will achieve the same level of competency, and will make as much (or more) money, and positively impact as many (or more) patients lives.

You probably have a heads-up on me when it comes to basic sciences, since you have a PhD, but I am a bartender, musician, father and funny, funny guy. I doubt you can claim half of that.




All of the above would be true regardless of where I went to school, and would likely be true regardless of where you went to school.

Chew on that, sister.

well said, Idio

 

[me454555]

It is troubling that so many people fail to gain admission to US allopathic medical schools, only to run an end around and hop back into the allopathic medicine pathway during residency. These are people who I honestly think are as smart and capable as many of my allopathic classmates, but never put in the effort to get the grades or scores to gain admission to an allopathic program in the US. This group of uninspired underachievers hoping to largely bypass the arduous task of completing an American allopathic education is rightly branded with the marking of DO and forbidden the prestige of calling themselves MD. They should further be required to call themselves osteopathy sudents and not medical students.

This thread is a perfect example… why should you take USMLE Step II? Why put in a full effort when a half effort has served you so well thus far? You disgust me and many of my peers as you masquerade yourself as a Medical Doctor to patients who never understand your sub-par credentials. Stay true to your word… when you interviewed for your Doctor of Osteopathy program did you exclaim how you would abandon the field the first chance you got to rejoin the allopathic field, or did you lie and tell tales of how you had always wanted to learn Osteopathic techniques and practice Osteopathy? You are no better than the so-called US-IMG group that traveled abroad for a “medical education”.

US-IMG is another uninspired group of underachievers that should be exposed as such whenever a patient seeks medical attention. It is an insult for you to share my title and it makes my blood boil every time I learn more of your pathetic education in the Caribbean or wherever. I group DO and all IMG physicians together and would encourage my elected representatives to pass federal or individual state laws barring them all from entering any residency that wasn’t Primary Care. After completing such programs an additional requirement to practice in under served areas lacking PCPs, such as free clinics in rural and urban areas should be imposed for a minimum of 4 years. After meeting these service requirements, then they could apply to specialty residency programs.

You're blanket statement about all mds vs all do's/imgs is laughable. Who cares where you went to medical school, you learn to be a physician in residency. If Joe Smith D.O. and John Doe M.D. get into the same residency, their scores will likely be very similar on inservice exams, boards, and most other measuring sticks they use during residency. Furthermore, their impact on pts and society will likely be similar if they took similar jobs. Whats point of debating semantics such as undergrad training or where you went to school? Once you're in you're in.

Your lack of respect for PCPs is also very apalling. Even at Harvard, Penn, or whatever else MD institution you want to talk about, a significant amount of students will go into primary care. They go b/c want to, not b/c they have to.

I can understand your frustration as you watch many qualified DOs/IMGs get into residencies along side USMDs but saying that they should go into primary care only is just ignorant. Primary care is a tough field as their scope of knowlege is far reaching. I'd say an IM doc is at least as smart as a dermatogolgist or anesthesiologist. Drs are smart no matter what field they go into. The reason for competitiveness of certain specialties has nothing to do w/brain power required and everything to do w/outside factors such as # of spots, hrs, $$, type of pt, amount of pt contact, etc.

I'll bet that if PCPs were getting paid 500k/yr and specialists were only making 150k you'd be saying that IMGs and DOs should be forced to go into the specialties b/c "They aren't qualified enough to manage the whole pt by themselves. They should stick to 1 part of the body."

 

[ThinkFast007]

The general public is misinformed??? Maybe you should worry about informing yourself before you worry about the general public. Bottom line is that I'll jump through all the same hoops you do and more. I will be doing the same job as you do but better. I'll be making the same amount of money as you do. I'll have the same respect but there will be one difference... I won't be a bitter arrogant prick who went into medicine for the prestige of being called "DR."

Let me be clear as I consider some DO's on here like Vent and Idio awesome ppl.

I've got no probs w/ them. BUT i do have a problem w/ some DOs who try to misrepresent themselves as MDs (ie by having Dr John Smith written on their lab coats or ID tags...when actually they are DOs). Again, my problem is when ppl 'mislead' others. You are what you are, and just represent that degree or school you attended.

 

[wcostell]

Being a great Doc will have little to do with pre-residency statistics. I'm from US, allopathic, big boards(250+), much like Dr Mud/Phud here. But I also play basketball, golf, and guitar, and am a great husband and father(ask my wife!). I don't see it likely that anyone who can look with such scorn at a group of people who I'm quite certain belong to the same top 1% of educated people in the world as he will ever respect his patients. And twelve member juries are about as familiar with Board scores as I ever desire to be with either Boston or Philly.

Also, I met Dr. Pathic here, and he is indeed very funny. Good luck in the draft, fellas.

 

[The_Sensei]

Let me be clear as I consider some DO's on here like Vent and Idio awesome ppl.

I've got no probs w/ them. BUT i do have a problem w/ some DOs who try to misrepresent themselves as MDs (ie by having Dr John Smith written on their lab coats or ID tags...when actually they are DOs). Again, my problem is when ppl 'mislead' others. You are what you are, and just represent that degree or school you attended.

Since a DO is a doctor, there is nothing wrong with having Dr John Smith on their lab coats. At least all 50 states recognize DO=MD; get over it.....

 

[Idiopathic]

Being a great Doc will have little to do with pre-residency statistics. I'm from US, allopathic, big boards(250+), much like Dr Mud/Phud here. But I also play basketball, golf, and guitar, and am a great husband and father(ask my wife!). I don't see it likely that anyone who can look with such scorn at a group of people who I'm quite certain belong to the same top 1% of educated people in the world as he will ever respect his patients. And twelve member juries are about as familiar with Board scores as I ever desire to be with either Boston or Philly.

Also, I met Dr. Pathic here, and he is indeed very funny. Good luck in the draft, fellas.

I remember costello here well. Its nice that some people can look past the letters and see the stud beneath the paper trail



Good luck to you, man.

 

[ThinkFast007]

Since a DO is a doctor, there is nothing wrong with having Dr John Smith on their lab coats. At least all 50 states recognize DO=MD; get over it.....

you are clearly missing the point. when a DO tries to hide behind the title 'DR" is what I'm referring to....IE when everyone else has John Smith, MD written on their coats.

Got no problems w/ ppl if they identify themselves as to their respective degree. In instances when they dont, it's quite apparent who the evader/unsecure person is. Hope you're not implying you are one of these types.

out of curiosity...if nurses ever get their way and have a PhD of Nursing...would you be ok w/ calling them Dr. Pam Smith? that's what a lot of them are attempting to get accomplished. Dont you think this is misleading to the patient? Love to hear your opinion on that one.

Again, it's all about pt care and one's correct degree being represented in the CLINICAL arena. Heck, i agree PhDs in the basic sciences or undergrad should be called "Dr". however, in a hospital/medical environment it is very misleading to use that term because it connotes medical doctor in the CLINICAL arena.

 

[ThinkFast007]

...... Its nice that some people can look past the letters and see the stud beneath the paper trail



Good luck to you, man.

thanks Idio ..dont expose me in public


i know it wasnt meant for me but hey...

hope all is going well man.

 

[gtleeee]

What a joke. 25 odd years in this profession in hospitals (none Osteopathic institutions), and I have seen just two D.O.s with "Dr" on his lab coat instead of D.O. Guys that claim to be miffed over people doing this have never actually seen it I suspect. It magnifies their personal insecurities that D.O.s are physicians on an equal footing with M.D.s. Both are "Doctors" i.e. fully licensed physicians and surgeons. Usually from people who just don't have much besides their M.D. degree to feel good about I would imagine. That silliness over being upset "when a D.O tries to hide behind the title Dr." nonsense is a ridiculous smoke screen. Who do you think you are really fooling? Must be yourself.

 

[avanb803]

I would never be ashamed to put DO behind my name, but how many people walk through the door and say "Hi, I'm John Doe DO" or "Hi, I'm John Doe MD" They say "Hi, I'm DOCTOR John Doe" And I hope you aren't implying that nurses can be compared to DOs. I'm not ultrasensitive on this topic, but I would expect future colleages to have more sense than that. The day that an MD or a DO gives me an order like I'm a nurse after I'm done being a scutmonkey is the day they get a bitc#slap.

 

[ThinkFast007]

What a joke. 25 odd years in this profession in hospitals (none Osteopathic institutions), and I have seen just two D.O.s with "Dr" on his lab coat instead of D.O. Guys that claim to be miffed over people doing this have never actually seen it I suspect. It magnifies their personal insecurities that D.O.s are physicians on an equal footing with M.D.s. Both are "Doctors" i.e. fully licensed physicians and surgeons. Usually from people who just don't have much besides their M.D. degree to feel good about I would imagine. That silliness over being upset "when a D.O tries to hide behind the title Dr." nonsense is a ridiculous smoke screen. Who do you think you are really fooling? Must be yourself.

see it more than a couple of times bud. and believe i've got a hell of more stuff to 'hide' behind then my MD. I'll be up front, while you were probably nerding it in some library in High school and college, i was on high school and collegiate sports teams and fraternities. I get a long w/ ppl great. The real smoke screen as you would, is when DOs try to hide behind the title 'Dr'. and to the last poster....I've seen in more than just 2 times when DOs try to write themselves off as MDs.

I agree, when you introduce yourself, most ppl say "dr'. However, when you write it down, NO one I know whether it's physician orders, lab coats, IDs writes Dr. John Doe. In WRITING, they always write down the appropriate degree.

Secondly, you need to learn how to read. I SAID, when nurses get their PhD (not likening DOs to nurses) would you call them DOCTOR in a CLINICAL setting. Geez, i think i know which part of the MCATs you guys had problems w/.....could it possibly be verbal reasoning

 

[avanb803]

see it more than a couple of times bud. and believe i've got a hell of more stuff to 'hide' behind then my MD. I'll be up front, while you were probably nerding it in some library in High school and college, i was on high school and collegiate sports teams and fraternities. I get a long w/ ppl great. The real smoke screen as you would, is when DOs try to hide behind the title 'Dr'. and to the last poster....I've seen in more than just 2 times when DOs try to write themselves off as MDs.

I agree, when you introduce yourself, most ppl say "dr'. However, when you write it down, NO one I know whether it's physician orders, lab coats, IDs writes Dr. John Doe. In WRITING, they always write down the appropriate degree.

Secondly, you need to learn how to read. I SAID, when nurses get their PhD (not likening DOs to nurses) would you call them DOCTOR in a CLINICAL setting. Geez, i think i know which part of the MCATs you guys had problems w/.....could it possibly be verbal reasoning

I agree with you that DOs need to write the appropriate degrees on papers/white coats/etc, but the way you said it implied that DOs are not in fact doctors just like nurses aren't doctors. I have to say that I've never seen anyone write Dr. John Doe instead of just their name and degree, but I can see it happening w/ certain individuals. Just do me a favor and understand that we aren't all that lame.

 

[ThinkFast007]

I agree with you that DOs need to write the appropriate degrees on papers/white coats/etc, but the way you said it implied that DOs are not in fact doctors just like nurses aren't doctors. I have to say that I've never seen anyone write Dr. John Doe instead of just their name and degree, but I can see it happening w/ certain individuals. Just do me a favor and understand that we aren't all that lame.

Sorry to sound derogatory, i do realize not all of you are like that.

Having said that, I do think that nurses (even w/ a PhD and even clinical pharmacists) should never be called "doctor' in the clinical setting. I think correctly identifying all personal in the hospital establishes good communication b/w the pts and staff.

 

[Anonymity]

Why do so many people slack off and slide into Osteopathy programs for Professional School (it isn't medical school, but osteopathic school, DOs are Doctors of Osteopathy not Medicine) only to flock to Allopathic Training programs??? Why lie through your teeth to get in somewhere, only to run like a rat from a sinking ship at the first chance you get to slip into Allopathic medicine. The same argument can be made for those IMG students doing/saying whatever to get a seat only to run back to the US and sneak into US practice at their first chance.

Yes, I question your qualifications. Why not do the work and earn a spot in an allopathic med school in the US if you want to train and practice for allopathic medicine in the US??? Is it too hard for you??? Are you not willing to invest the energy??? Your habits leading up to you sneaking into US allopathic medicine cause me to question the quality of medicine you will practice. I'm sure your intentions are honorable, but you haven't proven yourself nearly to the degree a US allopathic med school grad.

As UT indicates: Failing to prepare is preparing to fail. And History tends to repeat itself, so I submit that those who fail to apply the required effort for entrance to US allopathic programs will fail equally in their training and maintenance of skills and knowledge. Thus leading to the least well trained, even if they don't kill every patient. This is the subject of a research study I have undertaken at PENN. The outcomes analysis of treatment provided by US allopathic grads, DOs, IMGs, and NPs, PAs.

 

[avanb803]

Why do so many people slack off and slide into Osteopathy programs for Professional School (it isn't medical school, but osteopathic school, DOs are Doctors of Osteopathy not Medicine) only to flock to Allopathic Training programs??? Why lie through your teeth to get in somewhere, only to run like a rat from a sinking ship at the first chance you get to slip into Allopathic medicine. The same argument can be made for those IMG students doing/saying whatever to get a seat only to run back to the US and sneak into US practice at their first chance.

Yes, I question your qualifications. Why not do the work and earn a spot in an allopathic med school in the US if you want to train and practice for allopathic medicine in the US??? Is it too hard for you??? Are you not willing to invest the energy??? Your habits leading up to you sneaking into US allopathic medicine cause me to question the quality of medicine you will practice. I'm sure your intentions are honorable, but you haven't proven yourself nearly to the degree a US allopathic med school grad.

As UT indicates: Failing to prepare is preparing to fail. And History tends to repeat itself, so I submit that those who fail to apply the required effort for entrance to US allopathic programs will fail equally in their training and maintenance of skills and knowledge. Thus leading to the least well trained, even if they don't kill every patient. This is the subject of a research study I have undertaken at PENN. The outcomes analysis of treatment provided by US allopathic grads, DOs, IMGs, and NPs, PAs.

FINE! I admit it! You caught me. I flunked out of undergrad. I got a 12 on the MCAT. USMLE was 108. My IQ is 57. I was sweeping the floor of McDonalds when I was offered acceptance into osteopathic school. Our anatomy lab had one cat corpse and 150 of us ******ed monkey DO students dissecting it. But do you know what? I'm still gonna steal your residency spot because I'm not some asocial labrat prick. So stick your nose up in the air as far as you want, because it won't change a thing.

 

[ear-ache]

This is the subject of a research study I have undertaken at PENN. The outcomes analysis of treatment provided by US allopathic grads, DOs, IMGs, and NPs, PAs.

How are you going to control for researcher bias?

 

[Anonymity]

What Bias?

 

[JSandall]

Maybe it was stupid when I started it. I really just wanted to know if I could save some money by not taking USMLE step 2.

I don't care what the Penn MudPhud has to say. He doesn't know me, doesn't know my qualifications or how hard I work. I'll let my stats and performance speak for themselves. While I'm sure some osteopathic students fit the generalizations listed in this thread, I am not one of them (and I'm sure neither are Idiopathic, Vent, many of my classmates, etc.) If I was wanting to enter a different specialty, I would have no problem with doing an osteopathic residency. From what I've read/heard, an osteopathic gas program often doesn't give you the volume of cases that most allopathic programs do. Ultimately, I want to excel in my chosen field and if that means training at an allopathic program over an osteopathic program then that's what I'm going to do (and I'll make sure everyone realizes I'm a D.O.).

The topics that are now being rehashed in this thread have been discussed ad nauseum on this site. Maybe it's time to close the thread.

I wish everyone good luck with their residency/specialty search. I appreciate the advice that many of you have given me. Take care.

 

[BubbleHead]

M

 

[ear-ache]

What Bias?

Let's say there was an outcome analysis that concluded that DO's gave superior patient care (as compared to MD's, PA's, NP's, CNA's, etc) as evidenced by less morbidity and mortality. The authors of this study were DO's. Not just any DO's, but militant ones that posted pro-inflammatory anti-MD smack on internet boards. Would you trust that the researchers maintained their scientific objectivity when they designed the study? How about when they interpreted the data? Even if the DO researchers consciously tried to maintain objectivity, wouldn’t you still be suspicious that their bias subconsciously colored their study design & interpretation of results?

Then there are instances like Dr. Hwang’s in S. Korea – I won’t go there…

 

[The_Sensei]

.

Got no problems w/ ppl if they identify themselves as to their respective degree. In instances when they dont, it's quite apparent who the evader/unsecure person is. Hope you're not implying you are one of these types.

Nah.......not at all.......my lab coat says Dr. So and so, D.O. But most people refer to me as Dr. So and so, CHIEF of anesthesia with MANY M.D.s working under me.

 

[Anonymity]

Nah.......not at all.......my lab coat says Dr. So and so, D.O. But most people refer to me as Dr. So and so, CHIEF of anesthesia with MANY M.D.s working under me.

Tell all those MDs that some lesser departments, such as yours, are run by DDSs or DMDs. It's all relative.

with MANY M.D.s working under me.

You obviously appreciate how funny it is that MDs work for you.


.

 

[The_Sensei]

Tell all those MDs that some lesser departments, such as yours, are run by DDSs or DMDs. It's all relative.




You obviously appreciate how funny it is that MDs work for you.


.

Anesthesia certainly is not a "lesser department", mudphud. Please give me the name of ONE anesthesiology department that is run by a dentist. Just one and your bizarre assertation will have credibility.

I DO appreciate how funny it is that MDs work for me! God.....just a lowly, lazy D.O. who back-doored his way into medicine having a Harvard, Stanford, and UCLA M.D. working under him! Keeps you up at night I bet.

 

[militarymd]

False. The majority of DOs do allopathic residencies (they are better in most peoples' opinions) and become board-certified via the AOA. You just have to have your residency approved by the AOA; they all are since 99.9% of allopathic residencies are superior to osteopathic ones and the AOA realizes this.

Hey Sensei,

If you truly think there is no difference between DO's and MD's, then why did you say this?

Just curious

 

[Anonymity]

Anesthesia certainly is not a "lesser department", mudphud. Please give me the name of ONE anesthesiology department that is run by a dentist. Just one and your bizarre assertation will have credibility.

I DO appreciate how funny it is that MDs work for me! God.....just a lowly, lazy D.O. who back-doored his way into medicine having a Harvard, Stanford, and UCLA M.D. working under him! Keeps you up at night I bet.

Sensei is also the Japanese title for Doctor... Your inferiority complex permeates all aspects of your personality.

LOL , I didn't say Anesthesia is a "lesser department", just that your anesthesia department is lesser because a DO is the Chair.

I didn't expect you to take the bait, but thank you. You obviously agree the Dentists should not Chair an Anesthesia Department, because... well they are Dentists. I feel the exact same way about DOs. Practice manipulation you stooge. We all know that when you couldn't get in at US allopathic schools that you swore up and down at your interviews that osteopathy was the life for you. How can any DO that swore (lied) about their love for osteopathy to get in at any US school that would take them (and we know most of you did) expect anything less than contempt for them in the workplace? You are dishonest manipulative unmotivated underachieving charlatans. No one can convince me that you as a group only dropped your standards once (going to an osteopathy school) and that that philosophy of taking shortcuts never enters other aspects of your lives. Or did you plan in advance to fail being accepted to US allopathic schools, acknowledge to yourself that you would lie this one time and take the easy way out. But, you promised to yourself you would always give a full effort after that one time.

It is funny that MDs work for you. You acknowledge it, we acknowledge it, I'm certain they acknowledge it. What makes it so funny? Humor is often found in the truth of an ironic situation and I submit to you that it is irony in its saddest form (where patient safety is compromised) that any DO chair a department of anesthesia.

 

[On my way out]

Why do so many people slack off and slide into Osteopathy programs for Professional School (it isn't medical school, but osteopathic school, DOs are Doctors of Osteopathy not Medicine) only to flock to Allopathic Training programs??? Why lie through your teeth to get in somewhere, only to run like a rat from a sinking ship at the first chance you get to slip into Allopathic medicine. The same argument can be made for those IMG students doing/saying whatever to get a seat only to run back to the US and sneak into US practice at their first chance.

Yes, I question your qualifications. Why not do the work and earn a spot in an allopathic med school in the US if you want to train and practice for allopathic medicine in the US??? Is it too hard for you??? Are you not willing to invest the energy??? Your habits leading up to you sneaking into US allopathic medicine cause me to question the quality of medicine you will practice. I'm sure your intentions are honorable, but you haven't proven yourself nearly to the degree a US allopathic med school grad.

Wow, you obviously have so much more insight than those ignorant Program directors and residency committee folk at allopathic institutions. Especially those that recruit DO's yearly, to include your precious Ivy's. Because we all know, it's what is learned in Med school that makes great, knowledgeable and competent physicians......not residency. And it is only the information taught in an allopathic institution that counts, those "DO" schools are busy teaching their students OMT basket weaving courses and forego all the necessary fundamental medical material. All I can say is that you are a total pompous ***** and it has been quite entertaining watching you put you ignorance on public display but I feel I must retort.

Although I do not disagree with you that there are some DO schools that have lower entrance requirements, there are also a good number of state allopathic schools that do also, but you make no mention of those. Grades and scores are not the end all, be all of what makes a good physician. There are other qualities that are equally important. Compassion, caring, empathy, problem solving and common sense (which you obviously lack) to name a few. I have met some very book smart physicians that are the worst clinicians ever. I wouldn't refer my dog to them. But I bet they smoked the USMLE.

I have a colleague who is a DO that matched at Yale for anesthesia residency and I can assure you his intelligence, dedication and work ethic are on par with any allo applicant out there. So let me ask you this, is it your opinion that this DO who goes through residency at Yale, scores equally well on inservice exams, completes residency in good standing and becomes board certified is a sub par physician/anesthesiologist just because he is a DO? I'd like to hear your reasoning on that one. Because the way I see it, even if his med school training is inferior (which it is not), I would think that once residency is done, he would be viewed, by naysayers such as yourself, as an equal. But then again that would require some inkling of common sense, so it may actually just be too much to ask.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Die thread, die. This is ridiculous.