Neurosurgery - Cardiac Surgery Combined

[bluepink21]

This question will be an odd one, but please answer the question rather than inform me of the obvious - it'd be practically impossible to accomplish. However ...

I cannot decide between Neurosurgery & Congenital Cardiac Surgery. I am invested in and love both these surgical fields and wouldn't ever want to choose between the two. Would it be technically feasible (i.e. legal / allowed by medical group bylaws) to complete a Neurosurgery residency after medical school. And then complete a 3 year cardiothoracic surgery and 1 year congenital heart surgery fellowships after this to qualify as a Congenital Cardiac Surgeon and a Neurosurgeon. Between the two could be a few years of General Surgery training; but my question is whether it would be technically allowed for a hospital to allow me to enter a 3 year CT surgery fellowship after a Neurosurgery residency without the full 5 year General Surgery residency. An idea would be a plastic surgery fellowship, which you are allowed to complete after Neurosurgery. Would this be considered enough non-neuro surgery training to be allowed (not likely) to enter a CT fellowship.

Note: I will be completing an MD-PhD program, so I would have research experience on top of that in the Neurosurgery residency. Also, I know this question is purely is it possible and not feasible, but would getting a med degree from Harvard / Columbia for example and a top Neuro residency be an advantage?

EDIT: Thanks to those who have answered with good advice. I take on the criticism, but to be honest it hasn't really deterred by ambitions (although I am yet to reach even med school). But to those who were either sarcastic, insulting, patronising or overly pessimistic "A butterfly is a caterpillar who never gave up on their dream to fly"

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[DoctwoB]

This question will be an odd one, but please answer the question rather than inform me of the obvious - it'd be practically impossible to accomplish. However ...

I cannot decide between Neurosurgery & Congenital Cardiac Surgery. I am invested in and love both these surgical fields and wouldn't ever want to choose between the two. Would it be technically feasible (i.e. legal / allowed by medical group bylaws) to complete a Neurosurgery residency after medical school. And then complete a 3 year cardiothoracic surgery and 1 year congenital heart surgery fellowships after this to qualify as a Congenital Cardiac Surgeon and a Neurosurgeon. Between the two could be a few years of General Surgery training; but my question is whether it would be technically allowed for a hospital to allow me to enter a 3 year CT surgery fellowship after a Neurosurgery residency without the full 5 year General Surgery residency. An idea would be a plastic surgery fellowship, which you are allowed to complete after Neurosurgery. Would this be considered enough non-neuro surgery training to be allowed (not likely) to enter a CT fellowship.

If you want to combine the two so you can put your brain on bypass, I think you're already there . . .

 

[bluepink21]

If you want to combine the two so you can put your brain on bypass, I think you're already there . . .

Oh yeah sarcasm's really helpful. I wonder how much time you wasted there writing that useless comment. I know it is unrealistic, I would just like to not if it is possible. But if you dont want to help then fine.

 

[bluepink21]

If you want to combine the two so you can put your brain on bypass, I think you're already there . . .

Sorry I do apologise. That was uncalled for, but I do know what I am asking is sort of a stupid question, but I would like to know whether its actually possible

 

[DoctwoB]

Sorry I do apologise. That was uncalled for, but I do know what I am asking is sort of a stupid question, but I would like to know whether its actually possible

I'm just joking around. The short answer is it is only possible if you want a minimum of 15 years of residency/fellowship. And it is not practical for so many other reasons.

 

[bluepink21]

I'm just joking around. The short answer is it is only possible if you want a minimum of 15 years of residency/fellowship. And it is not practical for so many other reasons.

Neuro ( 7 ) +
CT Fellow ( 3 ) +
Cong. Cardiac ( 1 ) = 11 years

What would be required to be abllowed to enter the CT residency/fellowship

 

[TraumaLlamaMD]

You can't do a CT surg fellowship from a neurosurgical background. You don't get any of the general surgery training you would need. It would be full neurosurgery residency followed by either five years of gen surg + CT fellowship or an integrated CT surg track, and then whatever cardiac fellowship you choose.

A plastics fellowship from NSGY as you cite is not going to give you the background in thoracic surgery that a CT fellowship would ask of you - basic thoracotomies and thoracoscopies are techniques you learn in either your 5 year general surgery residency or your integrated CT track.

 

[bluepink21]

You can't do a CT surg fellowship from a neurosurgical background. You don't get any of the general surgery training you would need. It would be full neurosurgery residency followed by either five years of gen surg + CT fellowship or an integrated CT surg track, and then whatever cardiac fellowship you choose.

Is that a legal thing? I have looked at the requirements for the various residencies/fellowships, but is it impossible to get on a CT independent residency, with only informal general surgery training and not a full 5 years?

 

[bluepink21]

You can't do a CT surg fellowship from a neurosurgical background. You don't get any of the general surgery training you would need. It would be full neurosurgery residency followed by either five years of gen surg + CT fellowship or an integrated CT surg track, and then whatever cardiac fellowship you choose.

A plastics fellowship from NSGY as you cite is not going to give you the background in thoracic surgery that a CT fellowship would ask of you - basic thoracotomies and thoracoscopies are techniques you learn in either your 5 year general surgery residency or your integrated CT track.

Are there not a limited number of cardiac related procedures completed in the 5 year general residency that could be shown in informal training - not necessarily in US, Europe or Australia possibly. People do complain that 5 years is a waste of time spent in general surgery for sub-specialities like plastics & CT surgery.

 

[TraumaLlamaMD]

Yes, it's impossible. Here are the valid tracks to obtain CT surgery certification in the United States:

http://www.tsda.org/the-tsda/ct-residency-programs/ct-surgery-training-pathways/

 

[bluepink21]

Yes, it's impossible. Here are the valid tracks to obtain CT surgery certification in the United States:

http://www.tsda.org/the-tsda/ct-residency-programs/ct-surgery-training-pathways/

Thank you. Now I would like to hear any advice on actually practicing Neurosurgery & Congenital Cardiac Surgery together. Be as honest as you can.

 

[ERDOC555]

Thank you. Now I would like to hear any advice on actually practicing Neurosurgery & Congenital Cardiac Surgery together. Be as honest as you can.

Assuming that by some miracle you completed 2 residencies, by the time you finished the second one, your skills would have atrophied from the first one. Neuro is hard, and it's a field that needs a lot of exposure to get good at. I would assume CT would be similar. There's a reason why surgeons stick to certain areas of the body and don't do everything.

So no, I doubt you would have the skills to practice both simultaneously nor would anyone want to hire you to do both.

 

[BurghStudent]

Thank you. Now I would like to hear any advice on actually practicing Neurosurgery & Congenital Cardiac Surgery together. Be as honest as you can.

I think you'd be the first. Neurosurgeons and CT's can comment on their individual specialties, comments you can find plenty of in the forums. But I doubt anyone has done something like this.

Not only do you have to consider the time commitment in getting trained, you also have to consider what you career would be like. There's a certain number of surgeries one should do annually of each type to remain competent. For example, crani neurosurgeons do a certain number of craniotomies a year. Would there be enough time in a year to do enough surgeries across these two different specialties to be competent? That's a hard question to answer.

 

[bluepink21]

Assuming that by some miracle you completed 2 residencies, by the time you finished the second one, your skills would have atrophied from the first one. Neuro is hard, and it's a field that needs a lot of exposure to get good at. I would assume CT would be similar. There's a reason why surgeons stick to certain areas of the body and don't do everything.

So no, I doubt you would have the skills to practice both simultaneously nor would anyone want to hire you to do both.

Would it not be possible to continue to practice neurosurgery for a limited number of hours to reduce skill atrophy, while completing the CT training. There are 168 hours in a week after all.

I think you'd be the first. Neurosurgeons and CT's can comment on their individual specialties, comments you can find plenty of in the forums. But I doubt anyone has done something like this.

Not only do you have to consider the time commitment in getting trained, you also have to consider what you career would be like. There's a certain number of surgeries one should do annually of each type to remain competent. For example, crani neurosurgeons do a certain number of craniotomies a year. Would there be enough time in a year to do enough surgeries across these two different specialties to be competent? That's a hard question to answer.

I wouldn't call myself a normal person. I dont have any interest in starting a long lasting relationship or a family and have a practical love for medicine and biology. I do enjoy fictional literature and the odd film, but apart from that and the gym my life is solely dedicated the medicine. Some people may not think that healthy, but I think that is for me to decide. One thing id answer that question would be theres 8,760 hours in a year and 168 in a week.

 

[BurghStudent]

There are 168 hours in a week after all.

There are also residency hour restrictions. But on the inside, many neurosurgery residents are working 100 hour/week and don't report it. Still, there's a basic minimum of sleep you need to remain healthy and not a danger to your patients. We are but human.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Not sure if any of the above comments say this, but even if it is possible and can be done - I would not want you performing surgery on me. For instance, if you do neurosurgery first, and then train in general/CT for another few years, you'd be a few years removed from neurosurgery, and with that, you're not touching my head. I'd rather have someone who's been doing neuro, and just neruo. The same goes vice versa. Every surgery you would do of one, is simply one less you'd be doing in the other. Why put patients at risk of ANY sort of possible skill atrophy? Why not do research in one field somehow while continue to do surgery in the other at most?

This may just be how I think, but I'm pretty sure others would feel the same.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Not to mention, MD/PhD track is what, 7 years? So from start to finish, you'd be looking at 22-23 years of long study hours, long residency/fellowship hours and call? lol. Have you started med school yet? You said you will be completing, which could also mean you have yet to start. Have you taken step and even have scores competitive for those?

 

[bluepink21]

Not sure if any of the above comments say this, but even if it is possible and can be done - I would not want you performing surgery on me. For instance, if you do neurosurgery first, and then train in general/CT for another few years, you'd be a few years removed from neurosurgery, and with that, you're not touching my head. I'd rather have someone who's been doing neuro, and just neruo. The same goes vice versa. Every surgery you would do of one, is simply one less you'd be doing in the other. Why put patients at risk of ANY sort of possible skill atrophy? Why not do research in one field somehow while continue to do surgery in the other at most?

This may just be how I think, but I'm pretty sure others would feel the same.

So you wouldn't take mu surgical history or skills in to account. You wouldn't listen to other surgeons vouching for my ability to perform your surgery because you want someone who solely performs neurosurgery. I can see your point, but why shouldn't someone with the ability to perform your surgery, perform your surgery?

 

[TraumaLlamaMD]

Right, it's not like you can moonlight practicing neurosurgery on the side while undergoing an 80+ hour/week general surgery residency or CT fellowship. This is nothing like being a vascular surgeon who takes the occasional general call, or the trauma surgeon who feels comfortable performing certain operations in the chest. These are two wildly different surgical specialties with different boards, different techniques, different instruments, different research.

Can we tell you it's 100% without a doubt never ever going to happen? I guess not. But if you're looking for a single person here to tell you it's remotely feasible, let alone a good idea, you're not going to find it.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Your surgical hx of cardio will not help remove a brain tumor, and your hx of removing a clot from the brain will not help you with a CABG

 

[bluepink21]

Right, it's not like you can moonlight practicing neurosurgery on the side while undergoing an 80+ hour/week general surgery residency or CT fellowship.

168 - 80 = 88 hours. Obviously sleep would be involved, but with (ridiculously admittedly) hard work I would of thought that it would be possible to deter skill atrophy.

 

[MusicDOc124]

So again, for everyone surgery performed of X is one less performed of Y, so I would not have you perform a surgery on me, as many probably feel the same way. Who would vouch for you? So yes, I would want someone who solely performs neurosurgery, and more specifically someone who specialized who has uber experience with the particular ailment I may present with. Same goes if I needed a CABG or transplant - I would want someone who soles does that.

 

[bluepink21]

So again, for everyone surgery performed of X is one less performed of Y, so I would not have you perform a surgery on me, as many probably feel the same way. Who would vouch for you? So yes, I would want someone who solely performs neurosurgery, and more specifically someone who specialized who has uber experience with the particular ailment I may present with. Same goes if I needed a CABG or transplant - I would want someone who soles does that.

But nobody solely does transplant surgery. The Division Chiefs will perform surgeries in most of the surgical services provided by the center. Michael DeBakey is considered one of the best CT surgeons in history and if memory recalls he only performed 32 heart transplants out of 60,000 total cardiac procedures. Would you not want a heart transplant from DeBakey because he didn't spend all of his time doing one procedure?

 

[TraumaLlamaMD]

No hospital is going to hire you to "moonlight" as a neurosurgeon while you are a full-time resident at another program. If nothing else, consider the liability. The malpractice insurance alone for a gen surg resident 3 years out of neurosurgery training operating on 8 hours of sleep a week would be staggering, and by staggering I mean unobtainable.

 

[TraumaLlamaMD]

But nobody solely does transplant surgery. The Division Chiefs will perform surgeries in most of the surgical services provided by the center. Michael DeBakey is considered one of the best CT surgeons in history and if memory recalls he only performed 32 heart transplants out of 60,000 total cardiac procedures. Would you not want a heart transplant from DeBakey because he didn't spend all of his time doing one procedure?

Heart transplants are to cardiac procedures what Rice Krispies are to cereal. Heart transplants are to neurosurgical procedures what apples are to sports cars. Get into medical school and observe a few surgeries and you'll quickly realize why this is so hilariously impossible.

Or think of it this way: Would you want your OB/gyn performing a craniotomy on your mother? The training overlaps about as much.

 

[bluepink21]

No hospital is going to hire you to "moonlight" as a neurosurgeon while you are a full-time resident at another program. If nothing else, consider the liability. The malpractice insurance alone for a gen surg resident 3 years out of neurosurgery training operating on 8 hours of sleep a week would be staggering, and by staggering I mean unobtainable.

Quite a few top neurosurgeons took 1 or 2 years out of practice to complete research fellowships. How is 2 years of research allowed & accepted, but 3 years of clinical practice in surgery (CT admittedly) and some neurosurgery is completely horrific. May I ask what your experiences are with residency. What field? How many hours?

 

[bluepink21]

Heart transplants are to cardiac procedures what Rice Krispies are to cereal. Heart transplants are to neurosurgical procedures what apples are to sports cars. Get into medical school and observe a few surgeries and you'll quickly realize why this is so hilariously impossible.

Or think of it this way: Would you want your OB/gyn performing a craniotomy on your mother? The training overlaps about as much.

"So yes, I would want someone who solely performs neurosurgery, and more specifically someone who specialized who has uber experience with the particular ailment I may present with. Same goes if I needed a CABG or transplant - I would want someone who soles does that."

The OB/GYN analogy isn't the same. Nobody in their right mind would want an ob/gyn surgeon performing neuro procedures. But they wouldn't have had 7 years of neurosurgical training + part time practice during a CT residency + keeping up with relevant symposia and literature on procedures.

 

[MusicDOc124]

But nobody solely does transplant surgery. The Division Chiefs will perform surgeries in most of the surgical services provided by the center. Michael DeBakey is considered one of the best CT surgeons in history and if memory recalls he only performed 32 heart transplants out of 60,000 total cardiac procedures. Would you not want a heart transplant from DeBakey because he didn't spend all of his time doing one procedure?

32 heart transplants and 60,000 surgeries also assumes a full career. You'd be training for almost 25 years compared to someone who trained fro less than 10 and then practiced for an additional 15 in 1 field. In a single field, you'd be working in one region of the body/one organ system.

In your case, just rough numbers, you're cutting your overall surgeries in half roughly to 30,000, then only 15,000 of those are heart, and 15,000 of them are brain. I'll take the one who did 60k of one thing any day.

Again, I would NEVER let you perform a surgery on me or anyone I knew if you were to spend that much time training for 2 different fields. A heart is not a brain, and a brain is not a heart. Your argument is simply invalid.

 

[Trauma Surgeon]

Are you guys seriously answering these questions? For anyone who have the slightest idea of what it takes to become a surgeon (of any kind) as well as maintaining the skills once learned as well as keeping up with all the new techniques and treatments the answer is very simple, NO you can't be a practicing neuro and above all congenital cardiac surgery as a side speciality.

 

[MusicDOc124]

And there are people who solely do transplant, fyi. Why don't you apply to med school first, see if you even get in, let alone to an MD/PhD, and tell me how this works out 30 years from now when I'm retired?

 

[TraumaLlamaMD]

And there are people who solely do transplant, fyi. Why don't you apply to med school first, see if you even get in, let alone to an MD/PhD, and tell me how this works out 30 years from now when I'm retired?

Because in 30 years you may be the one needing that crani or that CABG...

 

[bluepink21]

32 heart transplants and 60,000 surgeries also assumes a full career. You'd be training for almost 25 years compared to someone who trained fro less than 10 and then practiced for an additional 15 in 1 field. In a single field, you'd be working in one region of the body/one organ system.

In your case, just rough numbers, you're cutting your overall surgeries in half roughly to 30,000, then only 15,000 of those are heart, and 15,000 of them are brain. I'll take the one who did 60k of one thing any day.

Again, I would NEVER let you perform a surgery on me or anyone I knew if you were to spend that much time training for 2 different fields. A heart is not a brain, and a brain is not a heart. Your argument is simply invalid.

Neuro = 7 General = 5
CT Int. = 6 CT = 2/3
Ped. = 1/2 Ped. = 1/2

= 14/15 yrs training 8/10 yrs training
So at max they'd have practiced for an additional 5 years solely in one field not 15 as you say.

Plus if we are going to play the numbers game. DeBakey performed 60k surgeries. Cooley performed 40k. Half 60 = 30k. So Cooley, one of the best, cardiac surgeons in history would only have performed 10k more than myself. And as Cooley is top of the game, the average CT surgeon won't have performed quite as many.

 

[bluepink21]

Because in 30 years you may be the one needing that crani or that CABG...

And there are people who solely do transplant, fyi. Why don't you apply to med school first, see if you even get in, let alone to an MD/PhD, and tell me how this works out 30 years from now when I'm retired?

Oooh look at that. People who dont have any more capacity to create creative and logical arguments so they turn to sarcasm, insults and patronisation. Very clever. Very mature.

 

[MusicDOc124]

This brightened up my day a bit, thanks! Good luck!

 

[bluepink21]

Are you guys seriously answering these questions? For anyone who have the slightest idea of what it takes to become a surgeon (of any kind) as well as maintaining the skills once learned as well as keeping up with all the new techniques and treatments the answer is very simple, NO you can't be a practicing neuro and above all congenital cardiac surgery as a side speciality.

So ignore me. Okay you do that, and leave people who'd actually like to be mature and help answer questions honestly to being helpful.

 

[bluepink21]

This brightened up my day a bit, thanks! Good luck!

Sarcasm? Patronisation? Honesty? I can't see you saying good luck honestly to me after the last replies.

 

[MusicDOc124]

No really.. good luck. I don't wish bad upon anyone. I find the goal a little farfetched, and I'm simply giving you the .02 you requested. No sarcasm, etc. Good luck in doing what you want to do.

 

[bluepink21]

Not to mention, MD/PhD track is what, 7 years? So from start to finish, you'd be looking at 22-23 years of long study hours, long residency/fellowship hours and call? lol. Have you started med school yet? You said you will be completing, which could also mean you have yet to start. Have you taken step and even have scores competitive for those?

No really.. good luck. I don't wish bad upon anyone. I find the goal a little farfetched, and I'm simply giving you the .02 you requested. No sarcasm, etc. Good luck in doing what you want to do.

Cheers. I would like to say though, I have been the top in my class for 10 years. Double majoring at Cambridge University in UK : Biology Tripos & Anthropology. I have experience in hospitals and am going to apply for Harvard, Columbia & Tri-Inst. MD PhD programs. I may be a little ambitious, but that comment about competitive scores is completely uncalled for.

 

[LucidSplash]

Agree with the postings above. A couple obstacles I see in your path:

1) Landing the second residency is going to be a problem. Programs are looking for people who are committed to training in THAT specialty. You will struggle to convince them that your desire to split your focus is a pro and not a con.

2) Even if you were somehow able to obtain the needed training, getting credentialed/hired to do BOTH specialties will be a problem. You will be hard pressed to find a group/hospital to take you on to do half as much work in each specialty as another person they would hired with expertise in one. You won't be filling any need by having training in both areas, and in the end you have to fill a need, not half a need.

While I get that you are intelligent and have difficulty pinning down your interest, in the end, your patients would be best served by picking one and placing all that focus and energy into one career.

 

[bluepink21]

Agree with the postings above. A couple obstacles I see in your path:

1) Landing the second residency is going to be a problem. Programs are looking for people who are committed to training in THAT specialty. You will struggle to convince them that your desire to split your focus is a pro and not a con.

2) Even if you were somehow able to obtain the needed training, getting credentialed/hired to do BOTH specialties will be a problem. You will be hard pressed to find a group/hospital to take you on to do half as much work in each specialty as another person they would hired with expertise in one. You won't be filling any need by having training in both areas, and in the end you have to fill a need, not half a need.

While I get that you are intelligent and have difficulty pinning down your interest, in the end, your patients would be best served by picking one and placing all that focus and energy into one career.

I get what you are saying and I thank you for being more reasonable than the other repliers. I understand the difficulties ahead of me, but I could quote a long list of "inspirational quotes" from various people through history. I hope to train in neuro & cardio @ NYP/Columbia and Congenital at Boston Children's or Morgan Stanley/Columbia. I would hope developing a relationship with faculty members throughout the hospital and university during my Neurosurgery residency and exceptional (through practice & work Im premed at the moment - Im not being arrogant) surgical skills would assist in being accepted into the CT residency and then getting a job at New York Presbyterian when trained. Thanks again for the reply.

 

[LucidSplash]

Well, honestly I share the opinions of the other posters. But I'm a reasonable person so I understand that it is difficult for someone who is not even in medical school yet to understand the impossibility of what you are suggesting and I don't feel a need to try and convince you otherwise. There is no imperative for me to convince you that this is foolish and unnecessary, or that you can't be "totally committed" to 2 entirely disparate fields without having any real exposure via medical school. You'll figure it out in your own. We've seen enough of these kind of posts where people are enamoured of the idea of charting new territory in prestigious fields at specific prestigious institutions that I get that you aren't really looking for anyone to talk you out of it.

 

[mcworbust]

At first I thought this was a thread for hSDN, but I see you are:

Double majoring at Cambridge University in UK : Biology Tripos & Anthropology.

When it comes time to interview at medical schools and (if things go as you hope) neurosurgery residency, please do yourself a favor and don't mention this plan as it will be met with a lot of confusion, skepticism, and overall would have a negative impact on your chances to be accepted or match. Please make sure to spend time making friends and having a semblance of a normal life so that, during your interviews, you can connect with others as this will be vital in getting into med school and matching in any specialty. Big dreams are great, but don't let them get in the way of focusing on your day to day stuff. best of luck.

 

[bluepink21]

Well, honestly I share the opinions of the other posters. But I'm a reasonable person so I understand that it is difficult for someone who is not even in medical school yet to understand the impossibility of what you are suggesting and I don't feel a need to try and vonvince you otherwise. There is no imperative for me to convince you that this is a foolish and unnecessary, or that you can't be "totally committed" to 2 entirely disparate fields without having any real exposure via medical school. You'll figure it out in your own. We've seen enough of these kind of posts where people are enamoured of the idea of charting new territory in prestigious fields at specific prestigious institutions that I get that you aren't really looking for anyone to talk you out of it.

I never said I wasn't looking for anybody to talk me out of it. In fact Im plagued with overconfidence and trying to suppress arrogance. But I see your point. Wait until medical school so that I understand the naivety of my suggestions and go with the flow of the rest of the medical community. Got it.

 

[bluepink21]

At first I thought this was a thread for hSDN, but I see you are:


When it comes time to interview at medical schools and (if things go as you hope) neurosurgery residency, please do yourself a favor and don't mention this plan as it will be met with a lot of confusion, skepticism, and overall would have a negative impact on your chances to be accepted or match. Please make sure to spend time making friends and having a semblance of a normal life so that, during your interviews, you can connect with others as this will be vital in getting into med school and matching in any specialty. Big dreams are great, but don't let them get in the way of focusing on your day to day stuff. best of luck.

Cheers. Most positive comment by a long way. No of course I wouldn't mention the "plan" in my interview for neuro. Of course they'd discount me without every meeting me if I said I love your highly selective field, but I love this other one as well. I think SDN is the ono group of people Ive told about my ambitions anyway, it is a little "embarrassing" not sure its the right word but you get the idea.

 

[mcworbust]

Cheers. Most positive comment by a long way. No of course I wouldn't mention the "plan" in my interview for neuro. Of course they'd discount me without every meeting me if I said I love your highly selective field, but I love this other one as well. I think SDN is the ono group of people Ive told about my ambitions anyway, it is a little "embarrassing" not sure its the right word but you get the idea.

Good to hear, and I agree with you that SDN is great especially when you have some unique questions that might be dangerous to ask mentors or people who could impact your success in the process of medical training, I know I've had a lot of questions answered over the years that I likely wouldn't have wanted to ask an advisor/mentor...

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

It's completely unrealistic. That should be the end of the discussion really. Others have enumerated several of the many, many reasons.

That's not an "immature" response, by the way. The complete unwillingness to listen to voices of experience is the biggest sign of immaturity in this thread by far.

The only thing I would add to the above comments: in response to your comment that there are "plenty" of other hours in the week to practice your surgical skills outside of the 80ish hours required by one specialty - no, there are not.

-Logistically/regulatory-wise: The duty hour regulations (the 80 hr work week) are inclusive of any moonlighting or other clinical responsibilities. So any "practice" neurosurgery would be in violation of the duty hours and thus expressly forbidden by your general surgery and cardiac surgery programs.

-Practically speaking: What exactly time of the day would you be planning on throwing in those extra neurosurgery cases? To clarify, you wouldn't be in a training program in neurosurgery. So the only way this would work is if you were booking cases and doing them yourself, as an attending surgeon. That means you need predictable, scheduled hours, and a clinic. The 80 hours you work on cardiac wouldn't be somehow shoe-horned around an active clinical practice. Your general surgery/CT surgery program will be occupying basically every weekday from 5 or 6 am until 5 or 6 pm plus call and overnight duties. You going to be scheduling elective neurosurgery cases in the middle of the night during al of that free time?

-Realistically speaking: Respectfully, you have no clue what you're talking about. You have no idea how exhausting surgical training is. There is not time for a robust second career on top of the demands of a surgical training program. I don't really care about how few hobbies you have or your lack of interest in a social life. Surgery residency is grueling, exhausting, and the hours and time commitments unpredictable.

 

[bluepink21]

Good to hear, and I agree with you that SDN is great especially when you have some unique questions that might be dangerous to ask mentors or people who could impact your success in the process of medical training, I know I've had a lot of questions answered over the years that I likely wouldn't have wanted to ask an advisor/mentor...

I guess its the same with all forums: the anonymity provides a good shield for those who need advice. But on the other hand it can be used by those who just want to ridicule others who come to the forum asking honest questions.

 

[bluepink21]

It's completely unrealistic. That should be the end of the discussion really. Others have enumerated several of the many, many reasons.

That's not an "immature" response, by the way. The complete unwillingness to listen to voices of experience is the biggest sign of immaturity in this thread by far.

The only thing I would add to the above comments: in response to your comment that there are "plenty" of other hours in the week to practice your surgical skills outside of the 80ish hours required by one specialty - no, there are not.

-Logistically/regulatory-wise: The duty hour regulations (the 80 hr work week) are inclusive of any moonlighting or other clinical responsibilities. So any "practice" neurosurgery would be in violation of the duty hours and thus expressly forbidden by your general surgery and cardiac surgery programs.

-Practically speaking: What exactly time of the day would you be planning on throwing in those extra neurosurgery cases? To clarify, you wouldn't be in a training program in neurosurgery. So the only way this would work is if you were booking cases and doing them yourself, as an attending surgeon. That means you need predictable, scheduled hours, and a clinic. The 80 hours you work on cardiac wouldn't be somehow shoe-horned around an active clinical practice. Your general surgery/CT surgery program will be occupying basically every weekday from 5 or 6 am until 5 or 6 pm plus call and overnight duties. You going to be scheduling elective neurosurgery cases in the middle of the night during al of that free time?

-Realistically speaking: Respectfully, you have no clue what you're talking about. You have no idea how exhausting surgical training is. There is not time for a robust second career on top of the demands of a surgical training program. I don't really care about how few hobbies you have or your lack of interest in a social life. Surgery residency is grueling, exhausting, and the hours and time commitments unpredictable.

Long & detailed, but clear and concise. I like it. You cut to the point, brutally, but honestly. Cheers. Ive always been arrogant, I do try to suppress it, but I guess in this case Ive been losing. Ive got to chose heart or brain. I get it.

PS: You should really be a life coach, very empowering.

 

[bluepink21]

It's completely unrealistic. That should be the end of the discussion really. Others have enumerated several of the many, many reasons.

That's not an "immature" response, by the way. The complete unwillingness to listen to voices of experience is the biggest sign of immaturity in this thread by far.

The only thing I would add to the above comments: in response to your comment that there are "plenty" of other hours in the week to practice your surgical skills outside of the 80ish hours required by one specialty - no, there are not.

-Logistically/regulatory-wise: The duty hour regulations (the 80 hr work week) are inclusive of any moonlighting or other clinical responsibilities. So any "practice" neurosurgery would be in violation of the duty hours and thus expressly forbidden by your general surgery and cardiac surgery programs.

-Practically speaking: What exactly time of the day would you be planning on throwing in those extra neurosurgery cases? To clarify, you wouldn't be in a training program in neurosurgery. So the only way this would work is if you were booking cases and doing them yourself, as an attending surgeon. That means you need predictable, scheduled hours, and a clinic. The 80 hours you work on cardiac wouldn't be somehow shoe-horned around an active clinical practice. Your general surgery/CT surgery program will be occupying basically every weekday from 5 or 6 am until 5 or 6 pm plus call and overnight duties. You going to be scheduling elective neurosurgery cases in the middle of the night during al of that free time?

-Realistically speaking: Respectfully, you have no clue what you're talking about. You have no idea how exhausting surgical training is. There is not time for a robust second career on top of the demands of a surgical training program. I don't really care about how few hobbies you have or your lack of interest in a social life. Surgery residency is grueling, exhausting, and the hours and time commitments unpredictable.

Oh and "Because in 30 years you may be the one needing that crani or that CABG... ". Sarcastic comments, attempted insults and rolling smiley faces are really mature.

 

[bluepink21]

It's completely unrealistic. That should be the end of the discussion really. Others have enumerated several of the many, many reasons.

That's not an "immature" response, by the way. The complete unwillingness to listen to voices of experience is the biggest sign of immaturity in this thread by far.

The only thing I would add to the above comments: in response to your comment that there are "plenty" of other hours in the week to practice your surgical skills outside of the 80ish hours required by one specialty - no, there are not.

-Logistically/regulatory-wise: The duty hour regulations (the 80 hr work week) are inclusive of any moonlighting or other clinical responsibilities. So any "practice" neurosurgery would be in violation of the duty hours and thus expressly forbidden by your general surgery and cardiac surgery programs.

-Practically speaking: What exactly time of the day would you be planning on throwing in those extra neurosurgery cases? To clarify, you wouldn't be in a training program in neurosurgery. So the only way this would work is if you were booking cases and doing them yourself, as an attending surgeon. That means you need predictable, scheduled hours, and a clinic. The 80 hours you work on cardiac wouldn't be somehow shoe-horned around an active clinical practice. Your general surgery/CT surgery program will be occupying basically every weekday from 5 or 6 am until 5 or 6 pm plus call and overnight duties. You going to be scheduling elective neurosurgery cases in the middle of the night during al of that free time?

-Realistically speaking: Respectfully, you have no clue what you're talking about. You have no idea how exhausting surgical training is. There is not time for a robust second career on top of the demands of a surgical training program. I don't really care about how few hobbies you have or your lack of interest in a social life. Surgery residency is grueling, exhausting, and the hours and time commitments unpredictable.

One more thing. If I entered a CT residency at the same center as my neuro residency I would already have developed relationships with the neuro faculty and leaders. I havent actually got any significant experience (apart from hospital work experience) in a hospital so I guess Im being a little misguided thinking academic surgeons would be interested in helping fellow surgeons & friends to develop & susain skills (which would be used in the same center ultimately) rather than preventing said acquaintance from retaining their neurosurgical skills. As you say maybe im just immature and naive.